np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

[Meru]

Alright so one thing I've been having fun with that has some merit in this Staraptor meta

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch

Bouffalant is a nerd and kept spamming me to try this set out and it's actually a pretty good stallbreaker in this meta, using a more unique and unconventional approach. Jirachi is able to spread Toxic really well due to being able to threaten a good solid Iron Head flinch fest against common clerics like Florges, Aromatisse, and Blissey. It also satisfies my typical status spreader requirement of being immune to Synchronize bullshit, allowing it to also do work against Umbreon and Mew, although Foul Play hurts a little and Knock Off is super dangerous, as this set really appreciates the flinch recovery. You can still attempt to down them in a pinch if you have Toxic on them, which is nice. Toxic's main purpose is to flinch down would be counters like Slowbro, allowing you to pave the way for something else to sweep. The EVs and nature are used to provide maximum speed, allowing you to flinch more targets, while the HP investment lets you make 101 HP Substitutes against Blissey, allowing you into switch into her most common moveset with impunity and set up a Substitute (just watch out for Thunder Wave and Flamethrower). It also lets you live some random but important shit, such as a CB Heracross Megahorn, and even gives you a really good chance to set up a Substitute on 4 SpA Slowbro's Scald. Fire Punch is almost exclusively for Forretress (and Escavalier), as while it barely even has a chance to 3HKO, it definitely wears it down, and prevents it from PP stalling all of your Iron Heads, as it doesn't even take more damage than Leftovers gives it. You can also be an enormous shit and abuse Serene Grace Fire Punch as Scald Jr., allowing you to potentially hax yourself out of situations where you shouldn't, on things such as Empoleon, which hard counter this set.

As far as teammates go, I decided to pair it with the tried and true HippoStout core. Hippowdon is cool because he can provide Sand Stream, which Jirachi is conveniently immune to, giving it further residual damage on its opponents. Stoutland appreciates Forretress being worn down by Fire Punch as well as Jirachi's ability to set up a free Substitute on it, as Doge has significant problems with Forry if it can't nail it with a Fire Fang. Tbh, Stout has better moves to be running than Fire Fang anyway. In return (lol get it?), Stoutland scares out Scarfers and faster threats that Jirachi is helpless against, due to being unable to flinch them. SD Heracross came as a good status and Knock Off absorber, while also scaring out and/or weakening Empoleon, Swampert, Umbreon, and Mew, until this set is ready to take them on. Also, thanks to Blissey dropping, Defensive Nidoqueen is on the rise, which SD Heracross lures her in like no other to use Knock Off and remove Black Sludge, which helps Jirachi as it usually takes too much hax to straight up reliably flinch hax down solo. In return, Jirachi cleanly sets up a Substitute on Crobat, which is probably one of the harshest thorns in SD Heracross's side.

Altogether, it was cool to finally find a viable Jirachi set, as I feel that most of them that I've tried in Gen 6 have been too gimmicky or mediocre to abuse. Also doesn't hurt that this set fares well in this Staraptor meta.

Also credits to radianthero156, who bouff said was the first one he saw use this set in XY UU. Jk everybody's panties are too damn tight to handle a little credit being thrown around smh

 

[RowDog]

Well, yeah. It's a choice BANDED Staraptor. Offensive TR Cofag still takes a fuckload from CBCross.

What? Ununhexium was saying that Mega-Manectric was a solid check to Staraptor, when it isn't really the safest check to it. And Banded is one of the most popular sets (and probably one of the best sets for its role) so you'd want it to be able to put up a better fight against it, when it is still being 2HKOed (with SR) if predicted correctly and potentially OHKOed if you do not predict correctly. And even if it wasn't Banded, its other popular set still wrecks Mega-Man by being able to hit it on the switch and outspeed on the next attack:
-1 252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 178-211 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And comparing Staraptor vs Manectric to Heracross vs Offensive TR Cofag is one of the weirdest ways of putting that message across, as the only real similar thing about the 2 is we have 2 CB users.

If you want a good check to Staraptor, it should probably be to the CB set, considering it is one of the most common ones at the moment, and I don't feel that M-Manec does that well enough (not that this is at all relevant because Manectric isn't UU).

 

[pokemonisfun]

how exactly is a burnt staraptor massacring sableye again, considering sableye is immune to facade...? i guess jolly cb can 2hko but staraptor will die to recoil and burn damage before ever killing sableye due to prankster recover :X

I meant you go in 1 vs 1 on a slightly injured sableye and let it burn you but you still get the ko. Easy facade now since no more ghosts usually. Or it lets you not worry as much about scald burns. And it lets you come in on toxic very happily which is sort of common.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

What? Ununhexium was saying that Mega-Manectric was a solid check to Staraptor, when it isn't really the safest check to it. And Banded is one of the most popular sets (and probably one of the best sets for its role) so you'd want it to be able to put up a better fight against it, when it is still being 2HKOed (with SR) if predicted correctly and potentially OHKOed if you do not predict correctly. And even if it wasn't Banded, its other popular set still wrecks Mega-Man by being able to hit it on the switch and outspeed on the next attack:
-1 252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 178-211 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And comparing Staraptor vs Manectric to Heracross vs Offensive TR Cofag is one of the weirdest ways of putting that message across, as the only real similar thing about the 2 is we have 2 CB users.

If you want a good check to Staraptor, it should probably be to the CB set, considering it is one of the most common ones at the moment, and I don't feel that M-Manec does that well enough (not that this is at all relevant because Manectric isn't UU).

It seems he was saying it didn't matter if Manetric could come in because it can only switch in on it once. Hence, "Oh wait."

 

[Ruffles]

Before introducing a core I have been liking, I just want to say, that, unlike other common CB users, Raptor CAN spam his main move (BB) with great ease [so many little pokemon can switch on it and it is not as hindering as V-Create or HJK], not to mention, Raptor really doesn't need hazards to wallbreak (except against regular Rachi) or switching moves (unless mega aggron or rhyperior) which is amazing.

I have been using CB Staraptor + SD WoW Fletch (thinking about using U-turn over WoW not sure though) with NP LO Nape, Phys. Defensive Ampharos, Empoleon, and Florges.

I'll explain:

Staraptor: Gets rid of Bulky Waters and Electrics for Fletch to sweep (Raikou on the switch) while makes Bulky Waters and SpD behemoths weaker for Infernape to later sweep. Staraptor is excellent support for NP Nape and SD WoW Fletch. As soon as this thing enters the field something dies.

Fletchinder: Sweeper, WoW is useful to hit Rhyperior, Bulky Steel- Typles, Mega Aerodactyl, Bulky Water- Types, and Bulky- Electric types on the switch and as soon as they are withered down enough, after SD, Fletch can sweep. It helps Staraptor wither down Mega Aggron & Rhyperior w/ Wow for Star to wallbreak later + it pressures Cleric = free switch to Staraptor.

Infernape: Nasty Plot / Grass Knot / Fire Blast / Vaccuum wave, basically gets stopped by anything faster that can take a +2 vacuum wave or Goodra but is a beast. SpD Behemoths are annoying though, Staraptor helps with that. Infernape helps take care of Rhyperior, Rachi, and Mega Aggron for Staraptor to wallbreak easier or Fletch to Sweep easier. This thing is also a sweeper.

Mega Ampharos: 252 HP / 252+ Def Rest Talk w/ Heal bell, cleric for the team if Sableye burns Raptor, great counter for Scarf Raptor and great check for CB Raptor, IMO Mega Ampharos is an amazing pokemon to stop fire spam, after it mega evolved it takes nothing for Flare Blitz / V-create and resists both Bolt Strike and Grass Knot which Victini has and Infernape to an extent (T-Punch and Grass Knot)

Florges & Empoleon: Florges wish passes to Raptor and Empoleon while Empoleon defogs.

Bottom line:

Raptor + Fletch + Special Infernape = good core while Mega Amph is good answer for Raptor but ironically also great teammate for Raptor (keeps VoltTurn core, stop scarf users, and is cleric).

I have literally made a new account and broke 1400 with literally no effort w/ this team (only 2 losses). That's how good the core is.

 

[Godsend]

I've been going RT. throwback style with three birds, Honch, Fletch and Raptor. When played well it can be hard to combat the pressure, it's not been the best team (only at like 1600) but it has been damn fun.

 

[KM]

Before introducing a core I have been liking, I just want to say, that, unlike other common CB users, Raptor CAN spam his main move (BB) with great ease [so many little pokemon can switch on it and it is not as hindering as V-Create or HJK], not to mention, Raptor really doesn't need hazards to wallbreak (except against regular Rachi) or switching moves (unless mega aggron or rhyperior) which is amazing.

I have been using CB Staraptor + SD WoW Fletch (thinking about using U-turn over WoW not sure though) with NP LO Nape, Phys. Defensive Ampharos, Empoleon, and Florges.

I'll explain:

Staraptor: Gets rid of Bulky Waters and Electrics for Fletch to sweep (Raikou on the switch) while makes Bulky Waters and SpD behemoths weaker for Infernape to later sweep. Staraptor is excellent support for NP Nape and SD WoW Fletch. As soon as this thing enters the field something dies.

Fletchinder: Sweeper, WoW is useful to hit Rhyperior, Bulky Steel- Typles, Mega Aerodactyl, Bulky Water- Types, and Bulky- Electric types on the switch and as soon as they are withered down enough, after SD, Fletch can sweep. It helps Staraptor wither down Mega Aggron & Rhyperior w/ Wow for Star to wallbreak later + it pressures Cleric = free switch to Staraptor.

Infernape: Nasty Plot / Grass Knot / Fire Blast / Vaccuum wave, basically gets stopped by anything faster that can take a +2 vacuum wave or Goodra but is a beast. SpD Behemoths are annoying though, Staraptor helps with that. Infernape helps take care of Rhyperior, Rachi, and Mega Aggron for Staraptor to wallbreak easier or Fletch to Sweep easier. This thing is also a sweeper.

Mega Ampharos: 252 HP / 252+ Def Rest Talk w/ Heal bell, cleric for the team if Sableye burns Raptor, great counter for Scarf Raptor and great check for CB Raptor, IMO Mega Ampharos is an amazing pokemon to stop fire spam, after it mega evolved it takes nothing for Flare Blitz / V-create and resists both Bolt Strike and Grass Knot which Victini has and Infernape to an extent (T-Punch and Grass Knot)

Florges & Empoleon: Florges wish passes to Raptor and Empoleon while Empoleon defogs.

Bottom line:

Raptor + Fletch + Special Infernape = good core while Mega Amph is good answer for Raptor but ironically also great teammate for Raptor (keeps VoltTurn core, stop scarf users, and is cleric).

I have literally made a new account and broke 1400 with literally no effort w/ this team (only 2 losses). That's how good the core is.

so you built a team entirely built around letting staraptor and fletchinder sweep and you're surprised that staraptor and fletchinder can sweep ?

also I'd like to address your first point, where you say that Brave Bird is less hindering than V-Create or HJK, because this is just flat out wrong. HJK has a 10% chance to remove 50% of your health. Brave bird has an 100% chance to remove a shit ton of your health. V-create might drop stats, but once again if we're talking wallbreaking, a wall isn't going to outspeed -1 victini 95% of the time anyway, making the stat drop mostly not too big of a deal. Brave Bird absolutely has worse side effects than other wallbreaking move.

Tbh I have yet to see a "bird team" truly succeed on the ladder, seems kinda overhyped.

 

[alexwolf]

I have played a few games so far with a balanced team consisting of a CB Staraptor + Pursuit Honchkrow + NP Infernape, and any playstyle that is not hyper offense suffers a lot from Staraptor. Staraptor alone can break a lot of bulky offensive and balanced teams, as CB Reckless BB is strong and spammable as fuck, 2HKOing anything but a few resists. Then Nape, Honchkrow, and whatever else you like is free to pick up the rest of the team, with the key physical walls / tanks KOed or weakened. And even against stall teams, just pairing CB Raptor with another strong mon with kinda similar counters such as Honchkrow makes them really difficult to handle, as most stall teams have only one counter to CB Raptor, and this counter is either physically defensive Jirachi, which can be easily donked by Pursuit + Night Slash Honchkrow, Mega Aggron (easy as hell to wear down with either bird), and maybe Doublade, which is also fucked up by Honchkrow. Mega Aero is only a check that basically fails to check Staraptor at all if it switches into a U-turn with SR up.

And as many already said, Staraptor is reasonably fast too, outspeeding a good portion of the offensive Pokemon in UU, such as Hydreigon, Heracross, Darmanitan, Nidoking, Roserade, Nidoqueen, and Kyurem, Porygon-Z, and Chandelure, and of course every single defensive Pokemon outside of Mega Aerodactyl. Of course some of those Pokemon often carry Scarfs, but this only makes them easier to play around as long as you have a good defensive core to fall back on.

tl;dr Staraptor destroys defensive cores on all kinds of teams like no other, i don't remember the last time i have seen something being so good at wallbreaking. Definitely broken imo.

 

[Schpoonman]

Try pairing physically defensive Mega Ampharos with pretty much any Ghost, or any Pokemon that can capitalize on Choice-locked Double Edge. Also, Stealth Rock.

PDef Ampharos is a pretty fucking brilliant check to most of the physical attackers in the tier, and it actually checks that core in general very well. Don't switch into Life Orb Night Slash (I'm assuming your Krow has Night Slash) or CB Double Edge and you're golden.

 

[Nysyr]

Try pairing physically defensive Mega Ampharos with pretty much any Ghost, or any Pokemon that can capitalize on Choice-locked Double Edge. Also, Stealth Rock.

PDef Ampharos is a pretty fucking brilliant check to most of the physical attackers in the tier, and it actually checks that core in general very well. Don't switch into Life Orb Night Slash (I'm assuming your Krow has Night Slash) or CB Double Edge and you're golden.

Eh, I wouldn't call something like Doublade a solution for Mega Amphys woes of walling 'Raptor unless you carry pursuit. The two do handle the birds decently well, but have bad type meshing outside of that.

Aegis + Hyd was good in OU at one point, I'm sure Doublade + Hyd could be good in UU too.

Set I'm considering running in UU since SD is so awful with the bulk running around.

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Toxic / Iron Head.
- Sacred Sword
- Pursuit
- Shadow Sneak

Toxic lets you get a one up on Krow lacking Night slash and gives you something to do when you can't get hits in on stuff. (Also only one of like 3 moves that take advantage of no guard lol.

 

[Eddie2013]

I've have success with Staraptor pairing it with scarf infernape to eliminate faster threat pokemon like meinshao or opposing infernapes or other common scarfers in the tier. Offensive mega blastoise with spin support reallys helps clear the way for raptor of his usual counters. I have a rate my team thread if you guys are interested in seeing the entire team.

 

[alexwolf]

Try pairing physically defensive Mega Ampharos with pretty much any Ghost, or any Pokemon that can capitalize on Choice-locked Double Edge. Also, Stealth Rock.

PDef Ampharos is a pretty fucking brilliant check to most of the physical attackers in the tier, and it actually checks that core in general very well. Don't switch into Life Orb Night Slash (I'm assuming your Krow has Night Slash) or CB Double Edge and you're golden.

I agree that Mega Ampharos is a great Pokemon right now, as it just deals with so much (Fire-types, Flying-types, Water-types, Grass-types) while being an amazing pviot. However, Mega Amphy cannot hold off CB Straptor for more than one time, even if paired with a Double-Edge resist, especially if Raptor is running Adamant. CB U-turn 21.5% - 25.5%, so after one hit, Mega Ampharos gets into 2HKO range of Brave Bird with SR up.

 

[RowDog]

I have been using CB Staraptor + SD WoW Fletch

Damn, I have been using the exact same core. Quite good IMO, haven't played around with it too much and SR is a real bitch for both the Pokemon so clearance has to be good. I have been running this on a very similar team too. Balance, with my double bird offensive core and the 4 walls/tanks to fall back on. If there is one problem with which I do have with the core though, is the limited switch-in capabilities of both Pokemon which requires a fair bit of prediction to get them in safely most of the time, though when done effectively and at the right time, these 2 wreck face. And it is so easy, because Staraptor destroys stall by ripping apart balanced/stall teams, while Fletchinder wrecks Offensive teams after SD.

also I'd like to address your first point, where you say that Brave Bird is less hindering than V-Create or HJK, because this is just flat out wrong. HJK has a 10% chance to remove 50% of your health. Brave bird has an 100% chance to remove a shit ton of your health. V-create might drop stats, but once again if we're talking wallbreaking, a wall isn't going to outspeed -1 victini 95% of the time anyway, making the stat drop mostly not too big of a deal. Brave Bird absolutely has worse side effects than other wallbreaking move.

Now as for this, I have to disagree. The Pokemon that resist Victini's V-Create are very common at the moment. Bulky water-types such as Slowbro and Suicune, as well as common Fire-type Arcanine are all great stops to Victini, with even Hydreigon being able to eat a V-Create. The tier has pretty well adapted to Darmanitan and Victini fire SPAM, and as of such it is much more manageable, as those Pokemon all have a lot of other great characteristics which help them shine. On the other hand, Pokemon that resist Staraptor, which as a general rule are less common, such as Doublade and Rhyperior, have quite noticeable flaws, such as lack of recovery. And then those Speed and Defensive drops can come as quite a drawback, especially when coming to clean a weaken team. Victini can only use V-Create about 2 or 3 times before it is forced out by even some walls (which is admittedly still pretty good, don't get me wrong), and then against faster offensive teams it pretty much must hit and run or get revenge killed. Staraptor on the other hand can quite successfully clean weakened teams very well, as it can easily finish off a lot more Pokemon without being forced out, granted that some of the Pokemon with more health have taken prior damage or are removed. It also has 0 problems finishing off more offensively orientated teams once everything slower is down, and hence functions as a better cleaner. So in this case I'd definitely prefer recoil over the stat drops.

On the topic of Mienshao, CB locked HJK kind of sucks, quite a lot. Protect means you are forced out. Ghost type means you are not safe to HJK. If you miss you are pretty much dead. They are quite big drawbacks.

Ultimately, this is why Staraptor is super bloody awesome when it comes to drawbacks:

1. Nothing is immune to Brave Bird, things will be smacked for at least some damage
2. Drawbacks don't force you out. They limit your lifespan, but you can keep on hitting until you fall and no one is going to tell you to get out, because you can generally give them a hit first.
3. Not just 1 but 2 equally powerful wallbreaking moves, to hit Electric types who think that they are clever for resisting Flying
4. Perfect accuracy on both of its wallbreaking moves, means no unlucky losses due to a miss
5. 100 base speed is pretty damn fast and helps to outspeed a lot of the unboosted metagame.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

To be fair, since Fire types are such an integral part of UU, I don't see why if Staraptor is such a threat, why the meta can't adapt to flying types? It certainly doesn't make it overpowered. Last gen, when Mienshao looked, everyone had to prepare for strong fighting types, but none of the fighting types were deemed broken.

What Staraptor gains in offensive presence, it lacks in defense. I know defensive stats do not matter for offensive mons, but Staraptor can literally only come in on a free turn, when a mon is fainted. Its defensive stats aren't like Victini, where Victini can act as a pivot switch. In addition, it's normal/flying typing doesn't offer it too many useful resistances (Immune to Ghost and Ground types, I guess). This makes Staraptor lose utility compared to Crobat, who can run a very good CB set (with a good secondary STAB in Cross Pos), while maintaining a 4x resist to grass AND fighting. Staraptor, as Kitten Milk has stated, is going to lose a large chunk of its health every time it spams its powerful STABs. It has Darmanitan Syndrome, where it often does heaps, but often hurts itself too much to be terribly useful.

Coupled with Staraptor's bad defenses and high recoil moves, Staraptor should not be an issue for UU, especially with FAT mons such as Slowbro, Suicine, Hippowndon, Blissey, and Umbreon.

Staraptor is definitely a game-changer for the UU tier; however, it is not broken, therefore, it should be UU. The reason why Staraptor fits nicely into UU is due to the fact that it allows for more UU growth without hindering anything. It isn't something like Landorous-I, where there would be almost 0 reason to use any other special/mixed/physical attacker over Land-I. Staraptor is basically a faster/flying Darmanitan. There is still reason to use other flying types, such as Crobat, as well as other hard hitters, such as CB Victini, LO Mienshao, and others like it. Staraptor does not entirely replace or beat an entire play-style by itself. This is unlike Salemence, where Kyu-B which destroys offensive teams, can dismantle defensive teams, and stall out balanced teams.

All in all, I believe Staraptor is not as big of a threat as people make it out to be.

 

[Jellied Eels]

UU ALL DAY I can definitely see where you're coming from but imo the comparison with Fire- and Fighting-type wallbreakers, and Darm in particular, remains somewhat flawed. Say that Raptor has non-existant bulk, that it kills itself quicker than it can the opposing team, that it has plenty of viable checks - all of which are valid reasons to argue against a ban. But to draw such a comparison means you completely gloss over Staraptor's many advantages, like the fact that it has access to not one but two spammable STAB moves, or that Flying is an incredible offensive typing especially in the UU meta where the overwhelming majority of Flying-resists don't have access to recovery.

While I agree that the metagame can and will adapt (to pretty much any non obviously broken threat, might I add), the fact remains that against Staraptor, compared to the likes of Darm or Mienshao, there is only so much you can do. With pretty much all the bulky waters in UU (RIP Vap and Quagsire), and especially Slowbro, as well as Crobat, Arcanine, Gligar, Amoonguss, and the two new Fairies, even banded sets can have trouble breaking through relatively standard bulky teams. If you hadn't noticed, I'm laying the stress on reliable recovery - something which Saraptor checks noticeably lack. My previous post in the thread contained the relatively short list : Wish Def Jirachi, kokoloko's Mega Aerodactyl, and to an extent Alomomola. While this isn't a problem for bulky offense, it means that stall's list of stand-alone counters (ie excluding like Doublade + Wish support etc) is pretty much limited to Jirachi only.

Also, as a question to PK : while the recoil aspect of BB is certainly a downside, surely the fact that nothing is immune to it makes it by definition a more spammable move ? Meaning that clicking BB even on a choiced set will never be a complete waste of a turn, making it imo a far more safe move than CC or V-Create ? It's kind of like Flare Blitz and Knock Off's bastard child n_n

While I personally believe Staraptor should remain UU, mostly because I find the tier much more enjoyable and fast-paced with it included (I guess I'm a perfect example as to why the council system is needed lol), anyone who argues that Raptor isn't the best physical wallbreaker available rn is kidding themselves.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Comparing Staraptor to the fire types is perfectly viable, seeing as a majority of the fire types are physical beasts. A large reason why water types are used are to counter the likes of Darm and Victini. Right now, there are mons such as Bronzong, Metagross, and Jirachi which get terrible usage--mainly because of the weakness to fire types. With something like Staraptor, all the main walls (Suicine, etc) can check it, while things like Jirachi and Defensive Metagross can finally make an appearance.

Staraptor is pretty much in the top 5 for physical wallbreakers; however, UU has the tools in order to counter it. It isn't something like Terrak, where Aegislash and Gliscor can beat it (Doublade doesn't count, seeing as it's used specifically to beat Terrak). Metagross, Rachi, etc, are viable and competitive mon's that don't get usage because of the fire spam. With some flying spam, we will be able to see more variety in UU. And these new counters aren't obscure, these are great Mons. And the fact that these are just other options over the current ones (Slowbro, Swampert, etc) means that Raptor can be easily checked.

I think Raptor is a new threat all must prepare for, but I don't have to run a dedicated check to beat it. The fact that Raptor is about as good as Victini or Mienshao but with different typing is an indicator that it isn't broken. It just favors a more aggressive Meta, which is something UU needs, because damn, I'm sick of seeing Blissey/Florges/Slowbro/Mew on a team.

 

[alexwolf]

To be fair, since Fire types are such an integral part of UU, I don't see why if Staraptor is such a threat, why the meta can't adapt to flying types? It certainly doesn't make it overpowered. Last gen, when Mienshao looked, everyone had to prepare for strong fighting types, but none of the fighting types were deemed broken.

What Staraptor gains in offensive presence, it lacks in defense. I know defensive stats do not matter for offensive mons, but Staraptor can literally only come in on a free turn, when a mon is fainted. Its defensive stats aren't like Victini, where Victini can act as a pivot switch. In addition, it's normal/flying typing doesn't offer it too many useful resistances (Immune to Ghost and Ground types, I guess). This makes Staraptor lose utility compared to Crobat, who can run a very good CB set (with a good secondary STAB in Cross Pos), while maintaining a 4x resist to grass AND fighting. Staraptor, as Kitten Milk has stated, is going to lose a large chunk of its health every time it spams its powerful STABs. It has Darmanitan Syndrome, where it often does heaps, but often hurts itself too much to be terribly useful.

Coupled with Staraptor's bad defenses and high recoil moves, Staraptor should not be an issue for UU, especially with FAT mons such as Slowbro, Suicine, Hippowndon, Blissey, and Umbreon.

Staraptor is definitely a game-changer for the UU tier; however, it is not broken, therefore, it should be UU. The reason why Staraptor fits nicely into UU is due to the fact that it allows for more UU growth without hindering anything. It isn't something like Landorous-I, where there would be almost 0 reason to use any other special/mixed/physical attacker over Land-I. Staraptor is basically a faster/flying Darmanitan. There is still reason to use other flying types, such as Crobat, as well as other hard hitters, such as CB Victini, LO Mienshao, and others like it. Staraptor does not entirely replace or beat an entire play-style by itself. This is unlike Salemence, where Kyu-B which destroys offensive teams, can dismantle defensive teams, and stall out balanced teams.

All in all, I believe Staraptor is not as big of a threat as people make it out to be.

Being hard to switch in doesn't mean much when Staraptor wins so many 1 v 1 match-ups against most slower Pokemon. Or when Staraptor constantly and reliably does its wallbreaking job with little effort. All out attacking Deo-S is frail too, and has an even worse defensive typing than Staraptor, but it's a top tier offensive threat that is being suspected atm in OU. I am not saying Deo-S and Staraptor are comparable in any sense other than both being frail offensive Pokemon, i am trying to show you how being frail and hard to switch in doesn't make something not broken.

And the meta can't adapt to Flying-types the way it did to Fire-types because the viable tools don't exist. The pool of sturdy Flying-type resists that can at least check Staraptor is way smaller than the pool of good Fire-type resists, with plenty of Water-, Dragon-, and Fire-types to choose from.

 

[Bouff]

ok ignoring all the bad arguments above (barring alexwolf 's even though i personally see no reason to run honch with nape and raptor as NP Ape practically demolishes all the main answers to Raptor other than Aero but w.e) i'd like to talk about this nape set that me and Kitten Milk have been using to p good success

Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot

This set is probably nape's best set atm, especially when coupled with screen support, as it's one of the best late-game cleaners and definitely one of the best stallbreakers in the tier. Pretty much anything that doesn't resist all 3 moves (tini :[[) is going to get smacked, as it outspeeds a huge portion of the meta and shit that isnt scarfed due to its amazing speed tier. Fire Blast is pretty self explanatory, having good coverage and 2hkoing nearly the entire unresisted tier, except for Snorlax, Blissey, and Umbreon. This is where Close Combat comes in. Instead of having to rely on piss-poor power for STAB or a move that misses exactly when you dont fucking want it to, this beautiful son of a bitch OHKOes all of them after rocks are up (well Blissey is OHKO'd without rocks but you know what i mean). Finally, Grass Knot is to hit those water-types that like switching in to nape like a retard, such as Swampert, Suicune, and /especially/ Slowbro.

As for partners, Nape really loves screen support so it can get to +2, or even +3 with ease and start sweeping. Azelf especially fits this role well, as whenever Forretress comes in on Azelf, it basically means a free Nasty Plot for Infernape. Anything that can check Victini also works like a charm, as well as Scarf Staraptor.

 

[Eddie2013]

ok ignoring all the bad arguments above (barring alexwolf 's even though i personally see no reason to run honch with nape and raptor as NP Ape practically demolishes all the main answers to Raptor other than Aero but w.e) i'd like to talk about this nape set that me and Kitten Milk have been using to p good success

Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot

This set is probably nape's best set atm, especially when coupled with screen support, as it's one of the best late-game cleaners and definitely one of the best stallbreakers in the tier. Pretty much anything that doesn't resist all 3 moves (tini :[[) is going to get smacked, as it outspeeds a huge portion of the meta and shit that isnt scarfed due to its amazing speed tier. Fire Blast is pretty self explanatory, having good coverage and 2hkoing nearly the entire unresisted tier, except for Snorlax, Blissey, and Umbreon. This is where Close Combat comes in. Instead of having to rely on piss-poor power for STAB or a move that misses exactly when you dont fucking want it to, this beautiful son of a bitch OHKOes all of them after rocks are up (well Blissey is OHKO'd without rocks but you know what i mean). Finally, Grass Knot is to hit those water-types that like switching in to nape like a retard, such as Swampert, Suicune, and /especially/ Slowbro.

As for partners, Nape really loves screen support so it can get to +2, or even +3 with ease and start sweeping. Azelf especially fits this role well, as whenever Forretress comes in on Azelf, it basically means a free Nasty Plot for Infernape. Anything that can check Victini also works like a charm, as well as Scarf Staraptor.

How does this fair vs florges? Just out of curiosity. Also I think scarf ape is his best set the moment being able to clean up late game after Staraptor has wall broken most of apes counters and not having to fear anything as it outspeed every scarfer in the tier.

 

[Ruffles]

so you built a team entirely built around letting staraptor and fletchinder sweep and you're surprised that staraptor and fletchinder can sweep ?

also I'd like to address your first point, where you say that Brave Bird is less hindering than V-Create or HJK, because this is just flat out wrong. HJK has a 10% chance to remove 50% of your health. Brave bird has an 100% chance to remove a shit ton of your health. V-create might drop stats, but once again if we're talking wallbreaking, a wall isn't going to outspeed -1 victini 95% of the time anyway, making the stat drop mostly not too big of a deal. Brave Bird absolutely has worse side effects than other wallbreaking move.

Tbh I have yet to see a "bird team" truly succeed on the ladder, seems kinda overhyped.

Not "sweep" but completely eradicating the meta lol.

V-Create is resisted by much more common pokemons, bulky water- and rock- types particularly. While BB is only resisted by Bulky Steel- and Rock-Types, Metagross, Mega Aggron, and Jirachi are literally what take a BB that are steel- types while there is Suicune, Mega Blastoise, Slowbro, Swampert and even Tentacreul and Jellicent to an extent that can take a V-create. You can't spam HJK when there is a single ghost- type like Sableye, Chandelure, Froslass, Jellicent, Doublade, and even Cofagrigus. To top that you are still resisted by bulky Poison types such as Nidoqueen and Roserade AND bulky Fairies such as Florges and Aromatisse.

Basically what I wanted to say it is resisted less and can be spammed more, should have worded better.

Also I think "bird teams" are just a joke really, but I could see Raptor + Fletch/Honch succeed tbh.

Try pairing physically defensive Mega Ampharos with pretty much any Ghost, or any Pokemon that can capitalize on Choice-locked Double Edge. Also, Stealth Rock.

PDef Ampharos is a pretty fucking brilliant check to most of the physical attackers in the tier, and it actually checks that core in general very well. Don't switch into Life Orb Night Slash (I'm assuming your Krow has Night Slash) or CB Double Edge and you're golden.

I agree that Mega Ampharos is a great Pokemon right now, as it just deals with so much (Fire-types, Flying-types, Water-types, Grass-types) while being an amazing pviot. However, Mega Amphy cannot hold off CB Straptor for more than one time, even if paired with a Double-Edge resist, especially if Raptor is running Adamant. CB U-turn 21.5% - 25.5%, so after one hit, Mega Ampharos gets into 2HKO range of Brave Bird with SR up.

I really agree with these two statements tbh Phys. Defensive Mega Amph has been amazing for me in the current meta.

Damn, I have been using the exact same core. Quite good IMO, haven't played around with it too much and SR is a real bitch for both the Pokemon so clearance has to be good. I have been running this on a very similar team too. Balance, with my double bird offensive core and the 4 walls/tanks to fall back on. If there is one problem with which I do have with the core though, is the limited switch-in capabilities of both Pokemon which requires a fair bit of prediction to get them in safely most of the time, though when done effectively and at the right time, these 2 wreck face. And it is so easy, because Staraptor destroys stall by ripping apart balanced/stall teams, while Fletchinder wrecks Offensive teams after SD.

Since I have been using Phys. Defensive Mega Ampharos switching on pokemons has been really easy for me because Mega Amph's speed combined with Volt Switch guarantees a favorable match up, the only problem with me to switch on are offensive Ground- types like Nidoqueen and Nidoking,

How does this fair vs florges? Just out of curiosity. Also I think scarf ape is his best set the moment being able to clean up late game after Staraptor has wall broken most of apes counters and not having to fear anything as it outspeed every scarfer in the tier.

Since I run the same set but with Vacuum Wave > CC I'll tell you.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 211-250 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And if Blaze was activated:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Blaze Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 317-374 (88 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah this thing is a beast. And that was SpD Florges which pretty much no one runs anymore LOL

Bouffalant: tbh though Umbreon is not really a problem to purely special Nape because it is actually set up fodder.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 239-282 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and
Leftovers recovery

 

[Eddie2013]

Not "sweep" but completely eradicating the meta lol.

V-Create is resisted by much more common pokemons, bulky water- and rock- types particularly. While BB is only resisted by Bulky Steel- and Rock-Types, Metagross, Mega Aggron, and Jirachi are literally what take a BB that are steel- types while there is Suicune, Mega Blastoise, Slowbro, Swampert and even Tentacreul and Jellicent to an extent that can take a V-create. You can't spam HJK when there is a single ghost- type like Sableye, Chandelure, Froslass, Jellicent, Doublade, and even Cofagrigus. To top that you are still resisted by bulky Poison types such as Nidoqueen and Roserade AND bulky Fairies such as Florges and Aromatisse.

Basically what I wanted to say it is resisted less and can be spammed more, should have worded better.

Also I think "bird teams" are just a joke really, but I could see Raptor + Fletch/Honch succeed tbh.





I really agree with these two statements tbh Phys. Defensive Mega Amph has been amazing for me in the current meta.



Since I have been using Phys. Defensive Mega Ampharos switching on pokemons has been really easy for me because Mega Amph's speed combined with Volt Switch guarantees a favorable match up, the only problem with me to switch on are offensive Ground- types like Nidoqueen and Nidoking,



Since I run the same set but with Vacuum Wave > CC I'll tell you.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 211-250 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And if Blaze was activated:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Blaze Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 317-374 (88 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah this thing is a beast. And that was SpD Florges which pretty much no one runs anymore LOL

Bouffalant: tbh though Umbreon is not really a problem to purely special Nape because it is actually set up fodder.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 239-282 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and
Leftovers recovery

Not bad is there a difference in flamethrower netting you a 2HKO on florges since some people would opt for the safe accuracy rather than fire blast me personally I would run fire blast but others like safer moves.

 

[cacturne]

Not bad is there a difference in flamethrower netting you a 2HKO on florges since some people would opt for the safe accuracy rather than fire blast me personally I would run fire blast but others like safer moves.

running flamethrower would mean you definitely lose to florges

 

[Wobblebuns]

ok ignoring all the bad arguments above (barring alexwolf 's even though i personally see no reason to run honch with nape and raptor as NP Ape practically demolishes all the main answers to Raptor other than Aero but w.e) i'd like to talk about this nape set that me and Kitten Milk have been using to p good success

Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot

This set is probably nape's best set atm, especially when coupled with screen support, as it's one of the best late-game cleaners and definitely one of the best stallbreakers in the tier. Pretty much anything that doesn't resist all 3 moves (tini :[[) is going to get smacked, as it outspeeds a huge portion of the meta and shit that isnt scarfed due to its amazing speed tier. Fire Blast is pretty self explanatory, having good coverage and 2hkoing nearly the entire unresisted tier, except for Snorlax, Blissey, and Umbreon. This is where Close Combat comes in. Instead of having to rely on piss-poor power for STAB or a move that misses exactly when you dont fucking want it to, this beautiful son of a bitch OHKOes all of them after rocks are up (well Blissey is OHKO'd without rocks but you know what i mean). Finally, Grass Knot is to hit those water-types that like switching in to nape like a retard, such as Swampert, Suicune, and /especially/ Slowbro.

As for partners, Nape really loves screen support so it can get to +2, or even +3 with ease and start sweeping. Azelf especially fits this role well, as whenever Forretress comes in on Azelf, it basically means a free Nasty Plot for Infernape. Anything that can check Victini also works like a charm, as well as Scarf Staraptor.

I've used a similar set for some time and it did worked really nicely. I paired it with an Expert Belt Zoroark [Night Daze/Flamethrower/Grass Knot/U-Turn] which makes for fun mind games against opponents. You can feign a CS Infernape for a while (heck, even a Mixednape if you use LO) and surprise them with the correct coverage.

Thinking about it now though, Zoroark's goals are redundant considering the Infernape set already beats its usual counters (+2 Grass Knot OHKO's Slowbro and Suicune -62.5 chance to OHKO- after Stealth Rock) I guess if there's notable things that Zoroark does that are relatively useful and distinguishable are the potential of disposing Victini and its ability to provide set-up opportunities for Infernape. With those considered though, I think SD Nape [Swords Dance | Fire Punch/Flare Blitz | Mach Punch | Thunder Punch] would appreciate Zoroark's support more helping to soften up counters who would otherwise avoid a OHKO from a +2 coverage move.

 

[nv]

Ok after some time of playing UU with Raptor in the meta, I believe it is fine in UU and for a biased reason which is that it fucks over stall and that is fine with me. It also really helps with HO (Hyper Offense) in being a great, yet frail, wallbreaker. Granted HO has wallbreakers like Tini, with much better bulk, but Raptor is a wallbreaker that eventually kill itself and although it is hard to switch into, Raptor itself is seemingly revenge killed by anything above base 100 speed, since the better set is Band so it can wallbreak like it wants to. With Raptor, it is gonna be a hard vote to keep in UU or gtfo. Ultimately though, if it is running Scarf, it doesn't have enough power to really wallbreak, although it still does a ton of damage; if it is running Band, then anything above base 100 speed, such as Shao, Ape, M-Aero, etc. can RK or overpower it and therein lies the problem with Raptor.

 

[Limitless]

I'm sorry, UU forum. Calloflochie and I have created the ultimate pink team. It will be banned soon enough.