Manaphy is too slow for offensive teams in OU, but his combination of 100 speed with that power looks amazing for offense in UU. My preliminary reaction is that I don't like Manaphy in the tier. I (admittedly) haven't played any games with Manaphy yet, so that's subject to change. He would have to vastly underperform my expectations to change my mind, though.
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np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up
- Thread starter kokoloko
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A problem I see with Manaphy though is that it adds to the already large list of things stall needs an answer for. Stuff like NP Mixape, SD Haxorus, Sub CM Chandelure, adding Tail Glow Manaphy will make stall be stretched incredibly thin. Honestly Toxic Blissey or a revenge killer is the best and Manaphy breaks physically defensive Blissey, forcing it into 252 HP 252 SpD Calm which is garbage otherwise. And no one poke revenges all those mons. It's going to limit teambuilding even if it's not as good vs offense (late game it could still clean thanks to 100/100/100 bulk) So when defensive teams adapt to Manaphy they start to lose to other stuff, and UU just can't handle the power. Imo
Manaphy can beat toxic Blissey by running scald/rain dance/tail glow/x -- I've seen that set used in OU with psychic as the last move for mega Venu. It destroys OU stall, UU stall wouldn't stand a chance.
Unless someone finds another Granbull, good bye stall! It was fun!
Guys, take this an opportunity to build new teams with new pokemon. Just because something isn't currently popular doesn't mean it won't be good in manaphy meta. There are several pokemon that can be used to check or counter Manaphy that currently don't see common use (Virizion, Jolteon, Raikou, Sceptile, SpD Slowking, Ditto, several more I am not thinking of). These pokemon may or may not be good in the general metagame (i.e. outside countering Manaphy) but it's your responsibility as competitive players to explore any option that will give you an edge. Don't just twiddle your thumbs and complain about manaphy because you can't conceive of how your current teams can't handle it - they probably can't. But then, if we had a metagame without Victini or Heracross or Mew and then we suddenly dropped them in, they would probably scare the hell out of you too.
don't you understand that anything that can possibly beat florges is deemed too stronght in the uu meta :x smh
but yeah, it gives me a good excuse to use virizion, and i hope it stays to make the meta less fire-friendly.
Yeah Ik just my example was basic tail glow, CM rest Rain dance is GG to stall unless you bring Jellicent.
You have to remember that Manaphy rarely ran a boosting item in OU and still hit hard as hell after setup and decently before setup. You could run cheeky items like Wacan berry to get around things that would stop your sweep. The coverage it carries also means you need to be quite careful about what you switch in on it. Even Max/Max Mega Venu had to be wary of the psychic lure.
Give this thing Even 2 turns in the rain VS stall and its over. Blissey won't be able to stop it thanks to Hydration shenanigans.
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Rain: 295-348 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 313-370 (48 - 56.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Rain: 471-555 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that is without SR vs the standard Blissey set. Keep in mind that Manaphy can slot things like Lefties and Lum berry to be even more disruptive.
This is no question for me, it should be banned like in less than 2 days lol.
Also about virizion:
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 328-388 (101.2 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 230-272 (67.4 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Give this thing Even 2 turns in the rain VS stall and its over. Blissey won't be able to stop it thanks to Hydration shenanigans.
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Rain: 295-348 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 313-370 (48 - 56.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Rain: 471-555 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that is without SR vs the standard Blissey set. Keep in mind that Manaphy can slot things like Lefties and Lum berry to be even more disruptive.
This is no question for me, it should be banned like in less than 2 days lol.
Also about virizion:
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 328-388 (101.2 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 230-272 (67.4 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you're running Rain Dance on your manaphy you're not running extremely critical coverage. And if you're using a separate rain setter just to set manaphy up, well, you'd be better off using swift swimmers.
Blissey always beats standard offensive manaphy outside rain. I don't want to hear anything about hydration rest because niche sets that don't threaten offense and barely threaten stall will not warrant a ban.
Regarding Viri:
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 299-354 (87.6 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 220-260 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Virizion Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 288-338 (84.4 - 99.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Manaphy doesn't need to run the rain, something like a damp rock Tornadus/Lead Azelf can do all the damage it needs. Also LO Virizion is a terrible option since you are burn bait vs the mons you are supposed to beat.
I did mention you can run resist berries fyi, nothing stopping a grass resist berry. Even if you don't run a resist berry, CM Virizion would still lose in that scenario due to lefties recovery.
You have to run calcs like you are switching in on one of its moves, you obviously don't calc 1v1 rofl.
Yes Virizion is good, no it doesn't eliminate Manaphy as a threat. And certainly you can't expect every team to run Virizion just to deal with Manaphy.
Before I say anything, I just want to say (lel) that I think Manaphy should be UU.
But because Volc and the likes got banned to BL, I feel that Manaphy will follow the same pattern. The UU meta has been designed to not handle anything remotely good in the form of a special sweeper. This is unlike 5th gen UU where Banded Lax and the likes were used on most teams. Most special walls on UU teams can't do anything back to the attacker, ie: double dance PZ.
Volc is, imo, worse than Manphany, and by extension, Mana will get banned. Manaphy has more balanced stats which actually works better for it since it has no SR weakness, has an ability for it to use on demand, and 2 boosting moves that beat both offensive and defensive teams.
Tail Glow Mana will beat most teams that have something like Scarf Darm/Tini, etc, because once it gets a Tail Glow off, few things can actually beat it (that is viable). In addition, the fourth move slot is very important for Mana. If it opts to run Rain Dance + Tail Glow + Rest, it only has 1 usable stab, which means it can be more easily checked. If it runs Tail Glow + 3 Attacks, the last move is either Energy Ball or Psychic (but let's be real, Surf, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball will be used). If it runs Calm Mind, it competes with Suicine who has pressure (Rain Dance Rest Calm Mind Scald).
Mana is more "versatile" in this sense. Volc can try to run a bulky set, but it relies solely on typing and flame body hax, roost or chesto berry, and not having rocks up on the field.
So, I feel that Manaphy > Volc, but apparently Volc = BL, so by the transitive property or inequality, Manaphy will be BL :[
But because Volc and the likes got banned to BL, I feel that Manaphy will follow the same pattern. The UU meta has been designed to not handle anything remotely good in the form of a special sweeper. This is unlike 5th gen UU where Banded Lax and the likes were used on most teams. Most special walls on UU teams can't do anything back to the attacker, ie: double dance PZ.
Volc is, imo, worse than Manphany, and by extension, Mana will get banned. Manaphy has more balanced stats which actually works better for it since it has no SR weakness, has an ability for it to use on demand, and 2 boosting moves that beat both offensive and defensive teams.
Tail Glow Mana will beat most teams that have something like Scarf Darm/Tini, etc, because once it gets a Tail Glow off, few things can actually beat it (that is viable). In addition, the fourth move slot is very important for Mana. If it opts to run Rain Dance + Tail Glow + Rest, it only has 1 usable stab, which means it can be more easily checked. If it runs Tail Glow + 3 Attacks, the last move is either Energy Ball or Psychic (but let's be real, Surf, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball will be used). If it runs Calm Mind, it competes with Suicine who has pressure (Rain Dance Rest Calm Mind Scald).
Mana is more "versatile" in this sense. Volc can try to run a bulky set, but it relies solely on typing and flame body hax, roost or chesto berry, and not having rocks up on the field.
So, I feel that Manaphy > Volc, but apparently Volc = BL, so by the transitive property or inequality, Manaphy will be BL :[
I'm not sure I understand why the Calm Mind Hydration set is somehow going to ruin stall when stall is already prepared for the nigh-identical Crocune?
Anyway, this will be a fun test.
Anyway, this will be a fun test.
While I see the subject of drop-downs being discussed, I take it scolipede will be getting retested at some stage as well?
As for Manaphy vs stall, my thoughts would be to run empoleon either as a restalk build or with wish support. It's your best chance, avoiding being OHKO'd even when manaphy is at +6, while not being 2HKO'd at +3, while you phaze with roar.
As for Manaphy vs stall, my thoughts would be to run empoleon either as a restalk build or with wish support. It's your best chance, avoiding being OHKO'd even when manaphy is at +6, while not being 2HKO'd at +3, while you phaze with roar.
Phys Def CM Hydration set with Rest/Rain Dance/Scald/Calm Mind is definitely viable. While it might seem inferior to Suicune (who has better overall bulk and can PP stall), it has the liberty of 1 turn rest and having Rain boosted Scalds from a higher SpA as well as providing Rain pivot for the team.
Scolipede will get retest chance if it drops in September which is extremely likely from July usage stats.
Empoleon can also use Grass Knot unless said Manaphy is CM :^[
Scolipede will get retest chance if it drops in September which is extremely likely from July usage stats.
Empoleon can also use Grass Knot unless said Manaphy is CM :^[
The main issue with manaphy is that it can get to +6. In two turns, which no other booster can boast with the exception of imposter ditto lol.rain set is cool, but completely unnecessary imo. At +3 it tears holes in just about everything, it hits the crucial 100 base speed and has water typing and solid 100/100/100 bulk. It could just as easily run cm set as well.
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 376-444 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The usual electric types (rotom h/c, mega amphy) are demolished by its coverage moves in surf and ice beam.
The only thing thats really holding me back from immediately screaming ban is that we have bulky waters in the tier already that run boosting sets. Cm slowbro has psyshock to beat the blobs and crocune just last forever. Ill have to playtest more to see how manaphy does, but i am leaning more towards broken atm
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 376-444 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The usual electric types (rotom h/c, mega amphy) are demolished by its coverage moves in surf and ice beam.
The only thing thats really holding me back from immediately screaming ban is that we have bulky waters in the tier already that run boosting sets. Cm slowbro has psyshock to beat the blobs and crocune just last forever. Ill have to playtest more to see how manaphy does, but i am leaning more towards broken atm
Won't really matter Manphy doesn't weigh much so GK won't be doing any substantial damage.
Undoubtedly, Manaphy would be an absolute terror in a Rain team in, giving it the same power as the Tail Glow/Rest/Rain Dance/Scald set, while allowing it to run some coverage. Outside of that, I think it can be a very interesting wallbreaker. As mentioned, there's a fair number of bulky waters, as well as things like Gastrodon/Cacturne that straight up walls the previously mentioned set, while the other set simply gets good coverage with a boosting move, which isn't exactly a crime. Personally, I think Manaphy is almost like a water-type Victini with a pure special focus. Where it lacks a 180 BP STAB move, it trades for Tail Glow.
Also, Manaphy gets a very interesting move, considering the prevalence of setup mon in the tier(CM Chandy, Crocune, etc) in the form of Heart Swap. Why take your own time to set up when your opponent can do it for you?
Also, Manaphy gets a very interesting move, considering the prevalence of setup mon in the tier(CM Chandy, Crocune, etc) in the form of Heart Swap. Why take your own time to set up when your opponent can do it for you?
First off, Cacturne and Gastrodon are awful switch ins since the most common set is going to be Tail Glow Surg Energy Ball Ice Beam, regardless of whether I was talking about CM Manaphy. The thing with Victini, is that all the sets have answers (overstatement but there are more ways to deal with tini) Slowbro, Snorlax, Alomomola, Arcanine are good walls to switch in, with regenerator they can heal off a mispredict, and continue to tank. The LO set is offensively checked by pokemon like Hydreigon, Dugtrio, and many scarfers. Next difference, V Create forces you to switch out most of the time unless your running trick room. Tail Glow is sweep if played against wrong. Finally Manaphys defensive typing is Much better than Victinis, giving it only weak to Grass and Electric. This means not as many scarfers can revenge it easily. For counters, every pokemon is beaten. Sub Tail Glow would beat Blissey easily, who is already running a garbage spread to try and stop Manaphy. It has too many options and hits too damn hard.
so everyones talking about manaphy dismantling stall, but nobody's talking about how manaphy can actuallly be a pretty nice stall mon itself:
Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 160 SpA / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
- Heart Swap
- Scald
- Energy Ball
- Rest
this set does a specific thing very well for full stall teams. it beats crocune, CM slowbro, and sub CM chandelure. if you've ever tried to play full stall in this tier then you'll realize how much of a godsend it is to beat all of these pokemon with one team member, because they're basically 3 of the most common boosters you'll lose to if you arent prepared. blissey loses to cune 1 on 1 because its forced to recover much more frequently than cune once it gets to +6. toxic + seismic toss only get you so far. CM slowbro is even more threatening since it can destroy your pink blobs with psyshock, and chandelure has exactly 0 defensive answers besides snorlax, which from my experience is easily overwhelmed by random special mons like houndoom, nidos, porygon-z, shaymin, etc.
in the past to beat these mons ive run shit like psych up/perish song celebi, as well as pursuit aerodactyl, but manaphy is able to not only force them out, but actually turn their boosts against them and potentially get 2 kills out of it. while your opponent starts setting up calm minds and thinking you're choking, you get 5 free turns to heal something up, maybe defog some rocks away, maybe set up your own rocks, before you bring in manaphy on the final calm mind and drop a nice heart swap :^)
the evs are to outspeed max timid chandelure, with max hp and the rest in sp atk. i probably would adjust them after a bit of testing but just had this idea and wanted to post it so eh. energy ball may or may not be necessary to beat cune, but if you choose to run rain dance over it, it'll probably come down to who crits first in a 1 vs 1 situation. it might seem weird to run rest without RD but hey, its stall, you need some kind of recovery.
other random mons that this beats include stuff like sub CM cressellia (which i have actually lost to on the lower ladder playing stall...), CM reuniclus, sigilyph (you never face it but when you do, you lose), etc. it can possibly pp stall curselax by repeatedly coming in and stealing its boosts before switching to a physically bulky mon like alomomola, idk. OH also this beats other manaphy using the CM rest rain set. who said stall gets 6-0d???
edit: the only downside of this set is that pretty much every stall needs either alomomola or slowbro to handle victini, so it opens you up to a bit of an electric/grass weakness. but you can build around that if youre smart. also its walled by cacturne, 2/10 set imo
Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 160 SpA / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
- Heart Swap
- Scald
- Energy Ball
- Rest
this set does a specific thing very well for full stall teams. it beats crocune, CM slowbro, and sub CM chandelure. if you've ever tried to play full stall in this tier then you'll realize how much of a godsend it is to beat all of these pokemon with one team member, because they're basically 3 of the most common boosters you'll lose to if you arent prepared. blissey loses to cune 1 on 1 because its forced to recover much more frequently than cune once it gets to +6. toxic + seismic toss only get you so far. CM slowbro is even more threatening since it can destroy your pink blobs with psyshock, and chandelure has exactly 0 defensive answers besides snorlax, which from my experience is easily overwhelmed by random special mons like houndoom, nidos, porygon-z, shaymin, etc.
in the past to beat these mons ive run shit like psych up/perish song celebi, as well as pursuit aerodactyl, but manaphy is able to not only force them out, but actually turn their boosts against them and potentially get 2 kills out of it. while your opponent starts setting up calm minds and thinking you're choking, you get 5 free turns to heal something up, maybe defog some rocks away, maybe set up your own rocks, before you bring in manaphy on the final calm mind and drop a nice heart swap :^)
the evs are to outspeed max timid chandelure, with max hp and the rest in sp atk. i probably would adjust them after a bit of testing but just had this idea and wanted to post it so eh. energy ball may or may not be necessary to beat cune, but if you choose to run rain dance over it, it'll probably come down to who crits first in a 1 vs 1 situation. it might seem weird to run rest without RD but hey, its stall, you need some kind of recovery.
other random mons that this beats include stuff like sub CM cressellia (which i have actually lost to on the lower ladder playing stall...), CM reuniclus, sigilyph (you never face it but when you do, you lose), etc. it can possibly pp stall curselax by repeatedly coming in and stealing its boosts before switching to a physically bulky mon like alomomola, idk. OH also this beats other manaphy using the CM rest rain set. who said stall gets 6-0d???
edit: the only downside of this set is that pretty much every stall needs either alomomola or slowbro to handle victini, so it opens you up to a bit of an electric/grass weakness. but you can build around that if youre smart. also its walled by cacturne, 2/10 set imo
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I am glad to see Volcarona gone. You were forced to run Blissey or Goodra on nearly every team if you wanted to prevent it from setting up, while you had to run Fletchinder if you were to have any chance at stopping it once it set up. And once you got even a single QD under your belt, you could deal with nearly all the top threats, namely Hydreigon, Heracross, and hell you could even run Psychic to get rid of Ape. While it indeed had some counters, such as those special tanks, and Mega Aerodactyl, you were pretty much forced to kill it with Fletchinder or Stone Edge. Sashed variants, such as mine was, could take any stone edge and deal some damage with Psychic, and even 2HKO if a Stone Edge missed, as it can and does. Revenge killing it isn't much of an option, as the only common scarfers (i.e. Darmanitan, Heracross, and Hydreigon) get outsped at +1, and my sashed set worked wonders against enduring a FB from Darm. I actually started seeing Scarfed Crobat (not even joking) specifically to deal with it. Being at 130 speed already, that speed is otherwise complete overkill, and Crobat sorely misses its Band or Sludge when it must counter Volcarona. When a Pokémon causes such restrictive teambuilding, annihilates revenge killing minus Fletchinder, and can blow shit up that isn't Blissey or Goodra, it is more than likely broken in the tier.
As for Manaphy, I can see it being broken as well. Though I have not used it yet, it sits at a very good Speed tier, has 100/100/100 bulk that is good for UU mons, and has access to one of the best boosting moves in the game. Similar to how Volca forced you to run a Special tank/Fletchinder among other things, I can see you being required to run Scarfmons to deal with Manaphy. It can tank any Grass- or Electric-type attack there is to throw at it, such as:
252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Then we OHKO back with Surf.
Due to the lack of good Electric- and Grass- mons in the tier, save for possibly Raikou, Manaphy will be roaming free. Though Raikou does OHKO and outspeed, do you really want to be forced to run it purely for the sake of killing Manaphy? Or do you want to have to run Goodra in order to tank it? Don't get me wrong- Blissey is the catchall to all Special mons, but if said special attacker has few counters, or some counters that are not very good (Raikou and Goodra are underwhelming at times, as was determined by the viability team), then it has an unhealthy presence in the metagame. Though Manaphy can be more easily revenge killed than Volcarona, it still possesses the ability to "blow shit up", which in and of itself is not healthy for UU.
As for Manaphy, I can see it being broken as well. Though I have not used it yet, it sits at a very good Speed tier, has 100/100/100 bulk that is good for UU mons, and has access to one of the best boosting moves in the game. Similar to how Volca forced you to run a Special tank/Fletchinder among other things, I can see you being required to run Scarfmons to deal with Manaphy. It can tank any Grass- or Electric-type attack there is to throw at it, such as:
252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Then we OHKO back with Surf.
Due to the lack of good Electric- and Grass- mons in the tier, save for possibly Raikou, Manaphy will be roaming free. Though Raikou does OHKO and outspeed, do you really want to be forced to run it purely for the sake of killing Manaphy? Or do you want to have to run Goodra in order to tank it? Don't get me wrong- Blissey is the catchall to all Special mons, but if said special attacker has few counters, or some counters that are not very good (Raikou and Goodra are underwhelming at times, as was determined by the viability team), then it has an unhealthy presence in the metagame. Though Manaphy can be more easily revenge killed than Volcarona, it still possesses the ability to "blow shit up", which in and of itself is not healthy for UU.
What about Roserade, Virizon and Shaymin? The Rotoms? Especially the lawnmower variant. Even Celebi can do work. Not to mention things like Toxicroak and Cacturne can cause problems for some of Manaphy's sets.
In the end we have other bulky waters with setup in the tier in Suicune and Slowbro. The main things which differentiate Manaphy from the others is a higher speed tier, better coverage options and Tail Glow. I think Manaphy may actually be rather close for me, as we have quite a lot of things in the tier that do very similar things to it already, other than Tail Glow.
In the end we have other bulky waters with setup in the tier in Suicune and Slowbro. The main things which differentiate Manaphy from the others is a higher speed tier, better coverage options and Tail Glow. I think Manaphy may actually be rather close for me, as we have quite a lot of things in the tier that do very similar things to it already, other than Tail Glow.
The problem is none of those pokes except for Virizion can actually swap into manaphy and guarantee forcing it out while it boosts with tail glow. I really don't consider speed ties to be acceptable since that would be a very unskilled way of dealing with manaphy (to state the obvious, the 50/50 in who moves first is in no way reliable). As for toxicroak and cacturne.
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 172-203 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cacturne: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
No good for cacturne, and even worse if manaphy is +3
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxicroak: 289-340 (78.1 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 243-289 (71.2 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Toxicroak falls agonizingly short, except with very favourable damage rolls where it can trade itself for manaphy through gunk shot and sucker punch but dying from SR + LO recoil and +3 ice beam. Unfortunately this is also with a subpar EV spread for toxicroak too.
Next best option in that list of grass types would be Rotom-C if it had a choice scarf attached to it, but that's as good as it gets.
Edit: I also remember Kokoloko talking about how its a deadweight vs offense. While that might be true if you just blindly attack manaphy, here's a few more interesting calcs in which manaphy can survive an offensive poke trying to take it down before it gets to use tail glow boosted attacks against you. Note that all of these pokes are faster than manaphy either naturally, or through use of choice scarf and that the assumption is that you swap one of these pokes in as manaphy uses tail glow.
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 269-317 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 238-280 (69.7 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 205-243 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Azelf Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 265-312 (77.7 - 91.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 252-298 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
For a pokemon running no bulk, that's pretty damn good that it can survive those STAB or SE attacks. You really do need a faster grass or electric type to ensure you can strongly check it, as the STAB is really important.
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Note that I did say some of Manaphy's sets. Granted Cacturne doesn't fair to well against Ice Beam and Croak doesn't fair too well against Psychic etc. But there are still sets like the Hydration CM manaphy which only carries a water move, or some only have Surf/Scald and Energy Ball.
Manaphy has a bit of 4MSS, as there is generally something which can threaten a particular Manaphy set, but Manaphy can choose a different coverage option to change its checks/counters. And a lot of faster Pokemon at least threaten it.
Manaphy has a bit of 4MSS, as there is generally something which can threaten a particular Manaphy set, but Manaphy can choose a different coverage option to change its checks/counters. And a lot of faster Pokemon at least threaten it.
RowDog Personally, I think Slowbro is one of the best CM users atm. It has great physical bulk, instant reilable recovery and psyshock. It doesn't have to get to +6 to start dismantling teams...
+2 4 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 313-370 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 376-444 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Both can set up in the same amount of turns. CroCune and CMBro are great walls that can sweep after a few boosts. Suicune is actually bulkier than Manaphy with 100/115/115 defenses.
If you go by definitions though, Manaphy has very few true "counters". It's very easy to get to +6 and I think that's the issue here. Without Tail Glow, it'll just be a fast bulky water type that doesn't even get Hydro Pump (lol). It can plow through Blissey in 4 turns. It has coverage in Ice Beam and Energy Ball/Grass Knot to beat the grass types and Gastrodon. It doesn't hit hard at all off the bat, which is completely different that Haxorus
252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 94-112 (13.1 - 15.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
But, there are a few surefire "checks"...
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 354-418 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 386-456 (113.1 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (watch out for boosted Ice Beam though! Unboosted does about 46.3% to 252/4 Mega Amph)
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 312-370 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 343-406 (100.5 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO (non Ice Beam sets of course!)
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 269-317 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
SubCM Raikou deserves a special mention here as well to being a faster Electric Type that can set up a CM and survive the +3 Surf from Manaphy and OHKO back with T-Bolt.
+2 4 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 313-370 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 376-444 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Both can set up in the same amount of turns. CroCune and CMBro are great walls that can sweep after a few boosts. Suicune is actually bulkier than Manaphy with 100/115/115 defenses.
If you go by definitions though, Manaphy has very few true "counters". It's very easy to get to +6 and I think that's the issue here. Without Tail Glow, it'll just be a fast bulky water type that doesn't even get Hydro Pump (lol). It can plow through Blissey in 4 turns. It has coverage in Ice Beam and Energy Ball/Grass Knot to beat the grass types and Gastrodon. It doesn't hit hard at all off the bat, which is completely different that Haxorus
252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 94-112 (13.1 - 15.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
But, there are a few surefire "checks"...
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 354-418 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 386-456 (113.1 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (watch out for boosted Ice Beam though! Unboosted does about 46.3% to 252/4 Mega Amph)
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 312-370 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 343-406 (100.5 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO (non Ice Beam sets of course!)
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 269-317 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
SubCM Raikou deserves a special mention here as well to being a faster Electric Type that can set up a CM and survive the +3 Surf from Manaphy and OHKO back with T-Bolt.
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