Metagame NP: ZU Stage 13 - I Am Machine - #19 Glastrier quickbanned

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Tuthur

uoduodnoR
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:ss/klinklang:



Klinklang has been one of the most prominent threat in the ZeroUsed metagame for months. Its great bulk and excellent defensive typing offer it numberous setup opportunities notoriously on common defensive staples like Tangela, Articuno, and Alcremie. After a Shift Gear it can easily dismantle teams without a sturdy Steel-type resistant Pokemon with its powerful STAB Gear Grind. Indeed, most Pokemon are either too weak to take out a Shift Gear boosted Klinklang or too frail to survive a hit from it.

The main concern with Klinklang's Shift Gear sets is how difficult it is to answer them in the long run. With Toxic, Klinklang puts most of its checks like Stunfisk, Coalossal, and Alolan Persian on a timer, and it lets it reliably weaken even ones with reliable recovery like Palossand, Sableye, and Rapidash. Offensive teams also struggle to revenge kill Klinklang as it outspeeds every Choice Scarf user except for the rare Alolan Persian and doesn't get threatened by the most common priority moves in Thwackey's Grassy Glide and Piloswine's Ice shard, and can play around Sucker Punch with Substitute.

Furthermore, Klinklang is not limited to its Toxic set and has other options. Wild Charge tears through bulky Water-types like Qwilfish, Poliwrath, and Silvally-Water that can check quite well mono Gear Grind sets. Magnet Rise lets it take advantage of would be counters Ground-types like Alolan Dugtrio and Galarian Stunfisk. It can also run Facade to alleviate the weakness to Flame Body and Static users, letting it work even outside teams with a cleric.

That said, Klinklang can struggle to get into a position where it can clean. The high popularity of clerics like Articuno, Miltank, and Alcremie means it is hard for Klinklang to consistently make progress against the checks it cripples with Toxic, especially since they often carry a recovery move. They can often outlast Klinklang due to it relying solely on Leftovers to get its health back. This makes Klinklang particularly weak to any form of chip damage like Rocky Helmet from Miltank, Spikes, and coming into resisted attacks like Tangela's Giga Drain and Articuno's Freeze-Dry, and means it cannot afford to lose its item to Knock Off or Corrosive Gas.


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GXEminimum games
7750
77.249
77.448
77.647
77.846
7845
78.244
78.443
78.642
78.841
7940
79.239
79.438
79.637
79.836
8035
80.234
80.433
80.632
80.831
8130

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Greybaum

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i dont see it. the tier has adapted well to klinklang as far as i can tell.

After a Shift Gear it can easily dismantle teams without a sturdy Steel-type resistant Pokemon with its powerful STAB Gear Grind. Indeed, most Pokemon are either too weak to take out a Shift Gear boosted Klinklang or too frail to survive a hit from it.
this isnt strictly true. ss zu is fatmons galore and pretty much every physically defensive pokemon can take it on; palossand, miltank, coalossal, to name three of them. even the fairly bad walls people use like sableye, gourgeist-super and appletun comfortably wall it, and this is without mentioning the actual steel type resists; stunfisk, gunfisk, rapidash, as well as seaking and pyukumuku if you're running stall. there's also a few offensive checks like throh, persian-a and silvally-electric which are fine but not as solo answers.
The main concern with Klinklang's Shift Gear sets is how difficult it is to answer them in the long run. With Toxic, Klinklang puts most of its checks like Stunfisk, Coalossal, and Alolan Persian on a timer, and it lets it reliably weaken even ones with reliable recovery like Palossand, Sableye, and Rapidash.
this is true. but it's also true of rapidash - this thing has no switchins that arent toxic bait (aside from like... poliwrath, whom is also a klinklang answer).
this is also true of skuntank, who has no longterm switchins at all and is more unhealthy than klinklang imo (if stunfisk is forced to rest it's reliant on sleep talk rolls & dodging a flinch to not just lose immediately). this is also true of tangela who has unreal sustainability because of regenerator and throws out sludge bomb, and is honestly in my mind it's only less good at it than skuntank because of articuno.

tl;dr this tier has too much defensive flexibility that makes any offensive mon that isnt running a stallbreaker set (one of subtoxic, toxtect, status affliction, taunt, sleep moves) a liability in a huge chunk of matchups and in turn that makes running heal bell an optimal strategy for a lot of balance teams. klinklang happens to be the best pokemon for breaking through these teams (largely because of its own immunity to toxic and above average power level) but of course klinklang is going to feel overpowered when every switch-in it has gets walled by miltank or articuno. klinklang is always going to be winning a war of attrition if its answer is rapidash and both sides have a heal bell miltank.
Offensive teams also struggle to revenge kill Klinklang as it outspeeds every Choice Scarf user except for the rare Alolan Persian and doesn't get threatened by the most common priority moves in Thwackey's Grassy Glide and Piloswine's Ice shard, and can play around Sucker Punch with Substitute.
rapidash is mandatory on offense teams because of its speed and offensive typing imo so this isn't true. all its answers struggle to appropriately handle sd, although thankfully rapidash is going to be trading in the process which limits this strategy to offense teams - but this and "just dont let it set up lol" is imo enough to handle klinklang. the pokemon tuthur mentioned also just... arent very applicable to offense teams. who's running piloswine on offense? choice scarf alolan persian?? come on now.
Furthermore, Klinklang is not limited to its Toxic set and has other options. Wild Charge tears through bulky Water-types like Qwilfish, Poliwrath, and Silvally-Water that can check quite well mono Gear Grind sets. Magnet Rise lets it take advantage of would be counters Ground-types like Alolan Dugtrio and Galarian Stunfisk. It can also run Facade to alleviate the weakness to Flame Body and Static users, letting it work even outside teams with a cleric.
this isn't really true. qwilfish is set-up bait regardless because scald can't break sub and liquidation has too narrow of an application to see use even with klinklang in the tier (*on defensive sets. obv sd is a thing but it's 2HKOd by gear grind and doesnt do enough back). poliwrath still checks wild charge klinklang pretty handily and the recoil & inability to find use in literally any of its reliable answers bar poliwrath and at a push sd rapidash make it far too inconsistent to justify usage. there is silvally-water, true, but it's c rank on the vr - if someone isnt running wild charge, silvally-water of all things wont be changing their mind.
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Poliwrath: 204-240 (53.1 - 62.5%)

magnet rise is one of the worst moves you can run. dugtrio-alola has never been a good offensive check; it takes far too much from +1 gear grind and is put in range after LO recoil. galarian stunfisk (and regular stunfisk!) should be running foul play regardless because otherwise their best attribute (blocking volt switch from rotom) is negated by the fact that it can't touch it. the only possible exception is like... curse gunfisk, which i dont think is losing to klinklang either.

the tldr here is klinklang only has one viable set outside of stall (where passive sets like ID or resttalk have merit) and i think people are a bit out of line to suggest that, say, magnet rise might be pushing it over the edge.

:ss/klinklang: dnb
i wont be getting reqs because laddering isnt fun and im quite frankly tired of the whole getting-reqs system (no i dont have a better solution) but here's my thoughts laid out for anyone undecided. im happy to respond to opposing arguments but until then i personally don't find klinklang remotely broken. ban miltank and skuntank and unban centiskorch tbh.
 
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viet noa

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Shadow of the Steel-Type

Klinklang has been ZU's tier-defining threat for the majority of 2022. We're well aware of its offensive prowess and defensive versatility, leading it to have multiple different innovations. Many defensive Pokemon have much of their viability centered around their capability of checking Klinklang. This is especially the case for walls like Galarian Stunfisk. So, Klinklang has been quite centralizing for a while now. Conversations around banning it have existed for a long time, and so this suspect test was bound to happen. Despite how dominant Klinklang's presence is, though, this suspect test may have been too late.

If Klinklang were have ever to be banned, it would have been before Palossand entered the fold. While innovations have boosted Klinklang's potential to sky-high limits, the metagame is also as prepared as it's ever been to handle Klinklang-centric teams. This is especially the case with Palossand being re-introduced. Rocky Helmet sets serve as a reliable counter to Klinklang, and that goes without having to sacrifice greater usefulness in another item. Not just that, but defensive Pokemon like Stunfisk, Rapidash, Alolan Persian, and Rocky Helmet Poliwrath & Qwilfish can consistently annoy Klinklang throughout the battle. These walls can pair up to make it even more difficult for Klinklang to unlock its potential in a given game. Furthermore, with clerics running everywhere, it becomes harder to wear down opponents with Toxic.

Nobody can deny that Klinklang is still at least one of ZU's defining Pokemon. That said, the metagame has adapted to its versatility at this point, so a ban doesn't seem necessary right now.
 

pinorska

Banned deucer.
Played in SS and tested for PL. Klinklang is SS ZU in 2022, and there are virtually no downsides to running it on every team.

I was very heavily leaning Ban until I started running Stunfisk-Galar: it hard counters and gets free rocks against Klinklang, Klinklang can't boost past it virtually ever if you run physdef rest with foul play. Sleep talk isn't required. Now I'm still leaning Ban.

In my opinion, the most consistent set for Klinklang is Sub/Toxic/Shift Gear/ Gear Grind. I haven't messed with EVs. I have two problems with Klinklang in the tier.

The first being how strongly it invalidates offense and other forms of speed control. It is virtually impossible to revenge after a boost. It easily muscles through the viable scarfers in the tier (of which there are two, Rotom and Sawk). The very bad scarf Rapidash was brought in PL-- as the tiers fastest scarfer you'll ever see, it is outsped by Adamant 156 speed Klinklang after a boost and dies to Gear Grind after 2 rounds of rocks. Flare Blitz isn't even a guaranteed KO on the Klinklang, and it can use Substitute to force flare blitz recoil until it is in range. Priority is extremely uncommon as well. It is truly the offense killer, and gets through almost all of its soft checks that offense is forced to run (regular stunfisk, miltank, palossand) over the course of a game. You can't even intimidate the damn thing.

Secondly, it can come in for free on most of the tiers premier walls due to its premier defensive typing, rocks resistance and immunity to toxic. Articuno, the best special wall in the tier, gives it a free turn unless the Articuno clicks U-turn. Articuno has to drop one of Haze, Heal Bell or Defog to fit U-turn, and in practice often has trouble clicking U-turn. Tangela, the tiers premier physical wall, gives it free turns (especially substitutes) since it struggles to do the requisite 25% to break sub. The way we've adapted is to punish Klinklang for clicking contact moves: but it doesn't have to to make progress. It exerts huge toxic pressure and is able to punish the clerics (Clefairy, Miltank, Articuno) with ease.

There's been a lot of discussion of Palossand as a check. Palossand struggles to switch in consistently, especially if toxic is up. Plenty of pokemon that aren't Klink take advantage of it and threaten status, notswithstanding that it's not even that great at checking Klinklang in most realistic scenarios. +1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 152-182 (40.6 - 48.6%) -- approx. 77% chance to 2HKO after poison damage. The best way I found to mitigate Klinklang on less offensively-oriented teams is to run rest on the Klinklang checks. This is somewhat problematic because it then gives Klinklang, depending on sleep talk rolls, an extra 2 rounds of lefties, potentially two shift gears, etc.

It's by far the best Pokemon in the tier. You can definitely check it and play around it, but by god is it restricting.
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

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I'm leaning DNB. I like the metagame, even if Klinklang is restrictive and borderline. Banning it creates a Steel-type deficit that sounds risky, and there's a good question if Klinklang is even deserving of the boot.

The centralization that Klinklang causes is with Toxic. Clerics and other Toxic users are everywhere. In some ways, Toxic is one of the most used ways teams make progress, and obviously clerics are super popular as a result. It's a unique state of affairs that I think plays in part of ZU's charm.

Still, I don't think that Klinklang always deserve the progress it makes with Toxic. A lot of times, it's as if counterplay is nonexistent. Not every team wants to run Heal Bell Miltank, and other clerics like Articuno, Altaria, and Roselia already have 4MSS. I get why this can be a problem that makes teambuilding boring and, at times, fishy.

I think we can keep the gears. What may make me change my mind is the lack of offensive counterplay. After a Shift Gear, nothing revenge kills sans Mach Punch Gurdurr, and we all know by now that Gear Grind + Toxic support is sufficient coverage to sweep.
 
I've been taking time to learn the ZU tier and all the premier threats, dark horse choices, and all the way down to the bottom of the barrel. From my research on the tier, I can definitely see why there is a call to potentially ban Klinklang. The ability to Shift Gear and sweep most late games due to its great typing and stats is nothing to scoff at, and not to mention its great versatility being able to be a defensive anchor as well. It seems to have a stronghold on ZU's metagame, and most times, it seems like a real choke not to find it a spot on one of your teams in order to use another steel type or to just completely forgo a steel type entirely for another type. For the time being, I'm leaning more towards not being banned, because even with all that being said, it doesn't appear to be unhealthy for the metagame. It comes off as simply just a really, really solid mon for the tier.
 
Klinklang is undoubtedly the single biggest threat in the tier, and an essential part of the metagame. It's not surprising people feel strongly about banning or keeping it. I'll try to represent both sides of the argument as the viewpoints of either are definitely understandable.

Set Variety:
Realistically there isn't much. When I put Klinklang on a team I'm usally only considering Toxic or Wild Charge as a fourth move, and the former tends be more useful most of the time. It's great at weakening a significant portion of Klinklang answers but leaves it weak to water types, especially ones that can prevent or alleviate status like Qwilfish or Poliwrath. Wild Charge, on the other hand, is solid coverage against those but leaves it helpless when facing its most common answers like Stunfisk and Palossand. Facade is a handy option when you don't want to rely on clerics, and allows you to be more liberal when throwing out Gear Grinds vs Static/Flame Body users but can still fall short vs ghost- and water types. Magnet Rise is an awful set because Klinklang will lack either the aforementioned fourth move or Substitute, while not really being useful vs the vast majority of Klinklang answers. The ground types have other moves to hit it hard enough (most notably always breaking sub), and the fire/water types obviously don't give a shit. So unless your opponent is an avid Alolan Dugtrio spammer it's best to ignore the option entirely. Choice Specs, Choice Band and Magnetic Flux are also sets that have seen usage but weren't mentioned, and are almost as bad as Magnet Rise so I won't elaborate on them here.

Longevity:
If you're considering running a non-leftovers item on standard Klinklang, don't. One of Klinklang's biggest boons is the amount of safe switchins it gets, and this ability would be greatly hindered if stray Freeze-Dries/Hurricanes/Giga Drains actually chipped it permanently. Substitute eliminates the need for prediction and is much more feasible with passive recovery. Klinklang is really really good at playing the long game, courtesy of its valuable steel typing. It can, for example, get in on an early cuno defog, sub on the fisk switching in, toxic it while forcing to break the sub and wait till it gets weak enough from either hazards, good doubles, or teammates that pressure it (like rotom or skunk). Cleric support is a big factor here, but since Klinklang itself can pressure a good amount of them and is immune to Toxic itself, it generally has the upper hand given decent play from both sides. Practically everyone that has recently played a decent number of ZU games has either lost or been carried by an endgame 30% klang facing half a team, using its safe sequences to clutch out a win.

Offensive Counterplay:
The main issue that people tend to have with Klinklang, and this is a very valid point, is that there's barely any offensive counterplay. No usable scarfer other than Alolan Persian (which usally prefers tricking asap) outspeeds Klinklang at +2, while Gurdurr Mach Punch is the only common priority move that can somewhat deal with it. Apart from Sableye (which actually handles it quite nicely), there is very little that can proactively punish the gear's sub shenanigans. Even sun has issues with Klinklang if it doesn't switch in Liepard on the correct turn, since it can usally set up on Uxie while offensive Rapidash is anything but consistent against it. This means that one needs to have adequate defensive counterplay.

Defensive Counterplay:
This is the part the pro-ban faction tends to underestimate. For how solid Klinklang's strenghts are, solid counterplay can screw it over entirely. While Klinklang is excellent at making progress over time, it can struggle in the short term without making use of good double switches. Since every solid team will have functional Klinklang checks, those will need to be broken down (since the most common set is Toxic). Games played with offensive teams might not last long enough for that gameplan to be effective, and can easily fit non-passive checks like Gurdurr or Pawniard. Similarly, balance can afford a cleric to alleviate this issue. Miltank is the most effective one, but even Alcremie and Articuno work despite their blatant Klinklang weakness since (once again) it has trouble making immediate progress vs its answers. Theoretically, this means stall should lose to Klinklang, but it can afford to run a hard counter like Rest or Galarian Stunfisk. Not only is it relatively easy to fit both a tox klang and a charge klang answer on the same team, but there are plenty of options that handle both, and most do in the short term. A team with 3 mons that give klang entry and a single dash is bound to lose. Teams absolutely do not need to, but can effectively run more uncommon checks, like Silvally-Electric, Ninetales, Coalossal and Sableye. Sets like Flamethrower Altaria and Mystical Fire Alcremie also deny Klinklang easy entry. A team that does not want to lose to Klinklang will usally never do so.

Other Steels:
This shouldn't really be a factor in a suspect, but people do in fact consider the positive aspects of a mon in any metagame. Klinklang plays a pivotal defensive role in ZU as the main steel, but unlike some people have feared the meta would not fall apart at the seams if it would be banned. Not only do teams make use of its defensive utility sparingly, but the stuff that would go rampant without it is greatly exaggerated. The two main worries that Klinklang is so often splashed on teams for are Articuno and Alcremie. Just as there are plenty of other ways to abuse Articuno, Alcremie does not require steel types to check it. Not only is Alolan Dugtrio perfrectly serviceable, but Pawniard and Mawile made a splash in the meta (and I personally believe Lairon to be viable as well), poison types and passive means also work as well as ever. Klinklang is not as vital to the current meta as is often portrayed and its usefulness in the current metagame should not be considered when evaluating its potential brokenness. Or just use regular Klang gg.

Hax:
This is a minor point, but rng is a massive factor when it comes to Klinklang interactions. Its signature move has 85% accuracy and the double hit not only makes crits more likely (and this is imo a big part of why double dance cake isn't as common rn) but also makes contact abilities even more of a gamble. This is not unique to Klinklang of course, but several ZUPL games have been won and lost off Gear Grind misses/Flame Body burns. Just felt like it was worth mentioning as it could be considered an unhealthy factor for being uncompetitive (even if this is obviously stretching it).



:ss/Klinklang:
I do not think the evidence towards the gears being broken is strong or convincing enough to warrant a ban, but since this thread has been filled with mostly anti-ban posts, it would be nice to hear some opposition.
 
so ive been wanting to make this post truthfully for many, many months, but just never had the motivation or the energy and after a certain amount of time i pretty much abandoned the thought but im back and ready to party ! i wanna talk about speed control in the tier ! just to make sure we're all on the same page, speed control refers to the ways in which pokemon can move faster than the opponent. these can include, but are not limited to, choice scarf, priority attacks, abilities like chlorophyll and prankster, paralysis, and sticky web.

:rotom: part I: the scarfers :sawk:
:ss/rotom:
Rotom @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Shadow Ball
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt / Defog
rotom is arguably the best and most common choice scarf user that you will see in zu. its respectable base 91 speed coupled with volt switch and trick allows it to constantly gain momentum versus the opponent and to disrupt walls hoping to answer it like stunfisk and miltank.

:ss/sawk:
Sawk (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Poison Jab
although sawk recently dropped in viability from s to a+, its still a great pick and is very likely to be choice scarf in zu. its other sets with choice band and black belt make it a powerful wallbreaker, but with a choice scarf, it becomes a great revenge killer and cleaner. midgame, it is able to remove items with knock off and get off strong hits with its coverage and its stab close combat off of its huge base 125 attack, paving the way for it or its teammates.

:ss/manectric:
Manectric @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Switcheroo
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat / Flamethrower
although it's seen better days now that electric-immune pokemon like stunfisk and palossand run the tier, you are guaranteed to see manectric on the ladder. like rotom, manectric is a momentum-grabbing machine with its stab volt switch. switcheroo lets you try and stop the aforementioned ground-types and other defensive mons like appletun and articuno, and overheat or flamethrower rounds out the set with super effective coverage for grass-types that resist electric.

:ss/persian-alola:
Persian-Alola @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Parting Shot
- Switcheroo
- Foul Play
- Knock Off
alolan persian with a choice scarf is definitely uncommon, but with its base 115 speed, it becomes faster than some key threats like standard 156 speed ev klinklang after a shift gear (+2 speed), max speed jolly silvally after a flame charge (+1), and max speed neutral nature chlorophyll shiftry in the sun. it is able to fast pivot with parting shot or neuter defensive pokemon like miltank and clefairy by swapping their items with switcheroo.

:ss/gourgeist-small:
Gourgeist-Small @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trick
- Power Whip
- Poltergeist
- Synthesis / Rock Slide / Explosion
another uncommon scarfer, gourgeist-small boasts a higher speed stat than rotom, sawk, and even silvally, which makes it a great candidate for a choice scarf when paired with its high base power stab moves in poltergeist and power whip. it also packs trick to again handle defensive pokemon like miltank, altaria, and articuno. its last slot is reserved for synthesis to prolong its staying power after using trick, rock slide for nailing rapidash and the aforementioned altaria and articuno, or explosion as a nuke.

:ss/jynx:
Jynx (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
choice scarf is not typically viewed as its best set, but it definitely can suffice. base 95 speed means it sits higher than rotom and sawk, but you are left vulnerable to stealth rock without the utility of heavy-duty boots. as with other scarfers, trick is for dealing with defensive answers like cryogonal, articuno, and miltank, whereas psyshock or psychic and ice beam are powerful stabs coming off of a base 115 special attack. focus blast rounds out jynx's coverage, giving her the ability to super effectively nail pokemon like klinklang, miltank, and dark-types like alolan-persian.

:ss/mr-mime:
Mr. Mime @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Filter / Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick / Healing Wish
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Dazzling Gleam
- Mystical Fire / Focus Blast / Healing Wish
mr mime is very similar to jynx as a psychic-type choice scarf user, although i think im the only person ever to use this one in swsh. you have your stab moves, nothing special here and very standard. but what sets mr mime apart from jynx, besides no stealth rock weakness, is the ability to run scarf healing wish. this is a great tech with the buff to healing wish this generation, giving its teammates essentially another chance at life. you have the choice of mystical fire or focus blast last to nail steel-types, or you can forego coverage altogether to slot both trick and healing wish. this mon isnt great--it's even slower than scarf rotom--but its unique i think and ive had fun running it.

:ss/uxie:
Uxie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Psychic
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock / Literally whatever you want

Uxie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 Spe
Bold Nature
- Trick
- Psychic
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock / Literally whatever you want
uxie is a unique scarf pick that has seen some usage, but not much. the idea is simple: trick defensive pokemon expecting a defensive uxie. 64 speed evs with a neutral nature mean that with a scarf, you outspeed everything up to persian-alola, but you can also opt to run a speedy variant with max speed and timid nature to get the jump on everything below its base 95.

edit: thanks to ho3n for reminding me of this!
:ss/kabutops:
Kabutops @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Liquidation
- Flip Turn
- Knock Off
kabutops can fulfill many roles in the zu tier thanks to a surprisingly wide movepool consisting of things like stealth rock, rapid spin, swords dance, knock off, flip turn, and more. its choice scarf set boosts its decent speed tier of base 80 and capitalizes on its ability to grab momentum with a fast flip turn and disrupt defensive walls with knock off and its stab combo. it is especially notable as a pivot over pokemon like rotom and manectric because water immunities are far more fringe than electric immunities are; think of the lower usage of poliwrath with water absorb vs the prominence of pokemon like stunfisk and palossand, which are top-tier defensive walls.

truly i think that is all the usable scarf users we have, but let me know if i missed any that you use! i'll be making a part 2 soon hopefully outlining priority users, because we have a plethora, and i think they are great and are worthy of discussion, but im sleepy now and need a break. thanks for reading!
 
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pinorska gonna have to refer you to this post made when SSNU was suspect testing glastrier
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...icorn-glastrier-unbanned.3681857/post-8823985

If the mon was borderline broken in ssnu back then it is too much for sszu atm. It stat-checks the entire tier and has coverage for everything. Nothing reliably walls it, even ID cofa has to position itself correctly to beat it. Glast lives SE moves w ease, and also face tanks all neutral hits. Please ban before the gen ends, its unhealthy and ruins all the meta development we have had due to ZUPL.

Sidenote: cofag and perrs are fine, they were here before and functioned well and are good additions to the tier. Perrs in particular can help solve a lot of the passivity issues teams tended to have in prior meta, being a strong steel which is welcome in a meta lacking steel types. Cofagrigus gives us another welcome ghost which although def worth watching for in the future, is something that we should adapt to facing like we did metagames prior.
 

pinorska

Banned deucer.
I’d like to propose quickbanning or at least suspect testing Glastrier— with cc and ice move (could run horsepower for rapidash) this thing shreds defensive staples in the tier like Roselia, Tangela, Pawniard, Altaria, and Articuno. It definitely has room to run sub on a lot of sets, (of which sub 3a, sd 3a, and sub sd 2a are all very good) which it can bulk not to get broken by miltank and easily 2hko even bold miltank with cc. Its ability Chilling Neigh also pushes it past the threshold of reasonability. It is really only checked defensively by Cofagrigus, and due to its absurd bulk, is very hard to revenge kill. Sawk is a decent option, but if it runs into a sub variant of Glastrier, it dies to crash after a CC drop, and Glastrier easily lives Rapidash Flare Blitz and kills back with unboosted High Horsepower.
Glastrier will completely warp the meta with a month left of the generation; action should be taken swiftly to prevent this. None of my teams built within the last two months are useable because of 1 pokemon. Why it is being allowed in SSNL and majors is beyond me, and I am strongly considering dropping from both before I get turbo ratio’d by a Glastrier that the tier doesn’t have the tools to trade against.
 
I think a lot of people are overreacting about Glastrier in the current meta, I believe that this mon isn't even top tier at all, probably fitting into B+, and there are a few reasons to this.

1. Glastrier has longevity issues due to lack of reliable recovery and rocks chipping into its bulk, not to mention it has the worst defensive typing in the game. Glastrier can run HDB but then doesn't get leftovers recovery, limiting it to only substituting 3 times. If you run Leftovers, however, you'll want to support it with great hazard control measures, as you cannot afford rocks to get up due to it chipping down Glastrier too much. Compare this to another IronPress mon in Cofagrigius, who doesn't need this extra support to function, and Glastrier starts to look a lot worse. Since it is going to slower than whatever it faces due to base 30 speed, you can also usually status it before it gets its substitute, which also absolutely ruins Glastrier. Even getting a burn on Glastrier will hurt its longevity really badly, and it also just completely shut's down Glastrier in general because now it's a lot less threatening. You can try Wish support with Glastrier to keep it healthy, but that is a lot of effort to support this mon and also it will struggle actually receiving this Wish at low HP due to bad defensive typing despite the bulk, meaning that you will have to pivot it in to receive a wish, which is not all to common within the tier.

2. Glastrier is a slow ice type. It is incredibly easy to revenge kill Glastrier. Ice type gives it weaknesses to Fighting, Steel, Rock, and Fire types, which allows it to be revenged by Sawk, Perrserker, Rhydon, Klingklang, and Ninetails (maybe Rapidash depending on your set). You should probably have at least one of these on your teams that can get the job done or just another mon with coverage that can deal with it as well. This limits Glastrier to usually just making a trade scenario due to as I mentioned before, longevity issues making it hard to keep this mon at high HP for the next mons it will have to face. If you are running an IronPress Glastrier, you will have an easier time with avoiding being revenge killed, however this set has issues of its own. A ghost that isn't weak to ice will completely wall IronPress Glastrier and in Cofagrigus's case, use it as setup fodder. Other examples include Sableye and Spiritomb, with Sableye being able to encore it into substitute/swords dance or even burn it, and Spiritomb just doesn't care a lot about its attacks on Ironpress sets. Not only that, but IronPress Glastrier has to use Rest as recovery, giving you ample time to hit it with a special move or just a strong enough physical move such as Banded Sawk to break through. But its substitute should be able to take the incoming revenge kill right? This scenario is rare and I have not had it happen a single time while testing at all, mostly due to its poor speed meaning it can't hope to kill something before it can bust its substitute on the turn before hand, again, limiting it to a trade.

3. While Glastrier's main benefit is doing pretty good against fat teams, find any team with a little bit of offensive pressure and Glastrier struggles a lot. It struggles to switch in due to no resistances and thus against these teams relies on pivots such as Rotom to get in, but these teams have can make Glastrier struggle even after you have got it in against a mon, as Glastrier is just limited to again, another trade because the opposing team will definitely have counterplay for it.

As a result, Glastrier's main function is to try and clean up games after its counterplay has been dealt with due to these crippling flaws, in my personal opinion IronPress is the best set in order to do this, as it functions fairly well and can beat mons such as Klingklang looking to revenge kill it on the switch and it has more longevity than SubSD thanks to rest, however even in that set, Glastrier has competition with a much better mon imo for this role, Cofagrigus, who boasts a much better defensive typing and can use its poor speed in a OTR set to completely turn the tables against mons who would otherwise beat it such as Rotom, allowing to clean more reliably.
 
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pinorska

Banned deucer.
Strongly disagree with the above poster-

Not having reliable recovery is a silly argument for keeping a broken pokemon in a tier. Sawk doesn't have reliable recovery and it does just fine. With its 100/130/110 bulk, Glastrier will live basically any unboosted super effective hit once in the tier and kill back. It's a no-downside pokemon that invalidates 90% of teams built before last week singlehandedly. Of the 6 counters mentioned, only Rhydon probably (hitting edge) beats it 1v1 from neutral unless Glastrier speedcreeps it.

Iron press is a stupid gimmick when it has perfect coverage for the tier and 145 base attack, you won't see it used in serious play.

Glastrier doesn't merely to "do well against fat teams," it demolishes virtually every fat mon in the tier and can sub on most of the common walls for free. Bold Miltank is 2hkod by CC, Seismic Toss doesn't break sub. Articuno can't touch it, it subs on Tangela, Stunfisk, Palossand. Your defensive checks to it are Poliwrath and Pyukumuku only. Because Glastrier is a virtually free win against standard fat notwithstanding its teammates, it warps the metagame away from being able to bring teams with reliability. Reliability is important to make this tier enjoyable, it's no fun to concede entire matchups in the builder.

It OHKOs most of the revenging options listed above meaning it will basically guarantee a kill every time it subs. Let's say scarf Sawk wants to break its sub with CC, Sawk is now gone.

If the community wants it, we can suspect it, but please QB it then suspect it the same way Ninjask was done. Glastrier is interfering with the health of two different tournaments this week.

Defensive Calcs:
252 Atk Mold Breaker Sawk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 306-360 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Glastrier: 240-284 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16+ Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 240-284 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 240-288 (59.5 - 71.4%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 260-308 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Steely Spirit Perrserker Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 306-362 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Offensive Calcs:
252+ Atk Glastrier Close Combat vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 296-349 (101.7 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (don't have to risk miss)
252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 314-370 (109.4 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 188-224 (45.4 - 54.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Klinklang: 218-258 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Perrserker: 248-292 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 330-390 (121.7 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Strongly disagree with the above poster-

Not having reliable recovery is a silly argument for keeping a broken pokemon in a tier. Sawk doesn't have reliable recovery and it does just fine. With its 100/130/110 bulk, Glastrier will live basically any unboosted super effective hit once in the tier and kill back. It's a no-downside pokemon that invalidates 90% of teams built before last week singlehandedly. Of the 6 counters mentioned, only Rhydon probably (hitting edge) beats it 1v1 from neutral unless Glastrier speedcreeps it.

Iron press is a stupid gimmick when it has perfect coverage for the tier and 145 base attack, you won't see it used in serious play.

Glastrier doesn't merely to "do well against fat teams," it demolishes virtually every fat mon in the tier and can sub on most of the common walls for free. Bold Miltank is 2hkod by CC, Seismic Toss doesn't break sub. Articuno can't touch it, it subs on Tangela, Stunfisk, Palossand. Your defensive checks to it are Poliwrath and Pyukumuku only. Because Glastrier is a virtually free win against standard fat notwithstanding its teammates, it warps the metagame away from being able to bring teams with reliability. Reliability is important to make this tier enjoyable, it's no fun to concede entire matchups in the builder.

It OHKOs most of the revenging options listed above meaning it will basically guarantee a kill every time it subs. Let's say scarf Sawk wants to break its sub with CC, Sawk is now gone.

If the community wants it, we can suspect it, but please QB it then suspect it the same way Ninjask was done. Glastrier is interfering with the health of two different tournaments this week.

Defensive Calcs:
252 Atk Mold Breaker Sawk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 306-360 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Glastrier: 240-284 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16+ Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 240-284 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 240-288 (59.5 - 71.4%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 260-308 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Steely Spirit Perrserker Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 306-362 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Offensive Calcs:
252+ Atk Glastrier Close Combat vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 296-349 (101.7 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (don't have to risk miss)
252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 314-370 (109.4 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 188-224 (45.4 - 54.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Klinklang: 218-258 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Perrserker: 248-292 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 330-390 (121.7 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Few Points i would like to point out

1. For Defensive Calcs, these are not attacks that Glastrier would want to take at all, as it basically takes it out for the entire game anyway, and two; with rocks some of these are OHKO's, and Glastrier is not guranteed to run HDB because it desperately wants passive recovery, and so you can't rely on Glastrier to take these hits, especially when it comes to the second point; its pretty easy to chip Glastrier down due to no recovery on this slow, bulky mon which is likely to take a lot of damage, surely more than 25% which allows a lot of these mons to KO.

2. Iron Press is not a "stupid gimmick", it gives Glastrier a much easier dealing with the physical attackers that are tasked to revenge killing it and can make it hard to break on the physical side which can secure it to Rest. You also still get Ice + Fighting Coverage, so nothing is really lost at all. Here are a few nice calcs that Iron Defense can give you.

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 244 Def Glastrier: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. +2 252 HP / 244 Def Glastrier: 136-168 (33.6 - 41.5%) -- approx. 51.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Perrserker Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 244 Def Glastrier: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. +2 252 HP / 244 Def Glastrier: 110-132 (27.2 - 32.6%) -- 55.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

And Glastrier can do this back;

+2 244 Def Glastrier Body Press vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 329-388 (113 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 244 Def Glastrier Body Press vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 308-364 (107.6 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 244 Def Glastrier Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Perrserker: 348-410 (123.8 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 244 Def Glastrier Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 198-234 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These calcs can really make all the difference with Glastrier, and thus should not be dismissed as a mere "gimmick"

3. There are more defensive checks than you mentioned, infact there are quite a lot because being a mon with really low speed can do that to you, Sableye is a great counter to both sets with Encore, literally any mon with a status move can really hurt Glastrier if it tries to set up against it with a toxic/burn, such as Miltank, Rotom or Articuno it also doesn't want into even walls like Tangela due to Knock Off, who can also sleep powder it before it moves, which also really really hurts Glastrier. Cofagrigus also does incredibly solid vs Glastrier, Spiritomb doesn't mind it too much, Qwilfish needs to worry about HHP but otherwise resists all attacks and can Toxic after breaking the substitute. Rapidash also has to worry about HHP but can do pretty well at soft checking it due to Flame Body burns, or even just toxicing them. There is counterplay to Glastrier on fat teams, the same cons in residual damage and finding hard to bring it in still apply due to these issues. And like i said with revenge killing, i have literally never seen a Glastrier keep a sub up for a revenge killer coming in because of the low speed and no resistances.

Sure, Glastrier does have a strong offensive prowess with is great coverage, however it tends to trade at most times due to its low speed meaning it has to take an attack first, which puts it in range for the above revenge killers, especially because when it gets a substitute up, it will now be in range for mons such as Sawk and Perserrker, which makes it quite a sad mon at times tbh.
 
Respectfully, idk if you’re engaging in this debate to be a troll or you just don’t understand or haven’t played the tier recently. Either way I’ll bite and give you line by lines. I’m not gonna be nearly as eloquent or put as much evidence bc a lot of it has already been said and I cba.

1. Glastrier has longevity issues due to lack of reliable recovery and rocks chipping into its bulk, not to mention it has the worst defensive typing in the game. Glastrier can run HDB but then doesn't get leftovers recovery, limiting it to only substituting 3 times. If you run Leftovers, however, you'll want to support it with great hazard control measures, as you cannot afford rocks to get up due to it chipping down Glastrier too much. Compare this to another IronPress mon in Cofagrigius, who doesn't need this extra support to function, and Glastrier starts to look a lot worse. Since it is going to slower than whatever it faces due to base 30 speed, you can also usually status it before it gets its substitute, which also absolutely ruins Glastrier. Even getting a burn on Glastrier will hurt its longevity really badly, and it also just completely shut's down Glastrier in general because now it's a lot less threatening. You can try Wish support with Glastrier to keep it healthy, but that is a lot of effort to support this mon and also it will struggle actually receiving this Wish at low HP due to bad defensive typing despite the bulk, meaning that you will have to pivot it in to receive a wish, which is not all to common within the tier.
It having no recovery does not stop it from being broken. Both leftover, HDB, Lum, and Choice band are all viable options on Glast. They all struggle with different things but all fundamentally allow it to stick around for longer games or break faster depending on your cup of tea. I don’t think you play the tier if you believe wish support is a fundamental part of sszu. HW would be the second wind that would be the most common but it doesn’t even need it, heal bell support is enough to allow Glast in multiple times. If getting a status on a Mon is your idea of good counterplay to it then it’s clearly broken.



2. Glastrier is a slow ice type. It is incredibly easy to revenge kill Glastrier. Ice type gives it weaknesses to Fighting, Steel, Rock, and Fire types, which allows it to be revenged by Sawk, Perrserker, Rhydon, Klingklang, and Ninetails (maybe Rapidash depending on your set). You should probably have at least one of these on your teams that can get the job done or just another mon with coverage that can deal with it as well. This limits Glastrier to usually just making a trade scenario due to as I mentioned before, longevity issues making it hard to keep this mon at high HP for the next mons it will have to face. If you are running an IronPress Glastrier, you will have an easier time with avoiding being revenge killed, however this set has issues of its own. A ghost that isn't weak to ice will completely wall IronPress Glastrier and in Cofagrigus's case, use it as setup fodder. Other examples include Sableye and Spiritomb, with Sableye being able to encore it into substitute/swords dance or even burn it, and Spiritomb just doesn't care a lot about its attacks on Ironpress sets. Not only that, but IronPress Glastrier has to use Rest as recovery, giving you ample time to hit it with a special move or just a strong enough physical move such as Banded Sawk to break through. But its substitute should be able to take the incoming revenge kill right? This scenario is rare and I have not had it happen a single time while testing at all, mostly due to its poor speed meaning it can't hope to kill something before it can bust its substitute on the turn before hand, again, limiting it to a trade.
pinorska already touched on this but there is a clear way to stop the ‘trading’ that was alleged to be mandatory. Switching out. Every single Mon you listed, which kind you, only one or two of the OHKO from full, has multiple safe switch ins whereas NONE of them can hard switch into Glast. Which means it picks up a kill every time it is safely on the field by virtue of being strong asf. So, and I regret I have to explain this, the Glast player can just switch out after killing something, and then get back in safely on a passive Mon later in the game. Regardless, behind a substitute Glast will just kill your rkill option and now what do you do?

Onto the second post, ID Glast is not winning as much as offensive. It’s still worth discussing, and arguably more broken with support and coverage for cofa(teammate support), but does not help the DNB argument at all.

The second point was about more defensive counterplay.
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 214-253 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 312-368 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Qwilfish: 282-332 (104 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Cofagrigus: 138-163 (43.2 - 51%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 169-201 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

All these calcs can be switched to +2 Glast if you’re referring to SD. Besides the Sableye, but with regards to Sableye, atp you’d HAVE to use sab+some other ‘check’ on your team and make every predict correct or else risk losing your fight immunity and set up counterplay.

Just felt I needed to respond as these arguments are really kinda nonsensical once you look at real game application. I’m gonna drop some replays from my ZU ssnl and ZU majors asw to show how threatening it is later.
 

pinorska

Banned deucer.
Glastrier does not benefit more from chip healing than it does from boots. Assuming rocks are up (Glastrier beats every rocker in the tier, but that aside), Glastrier has to stay in for 5 turns for it to outheal rocks. Glastrier doesn't have to stay in for long to break down even its bulkiest check since it blasts through everything after an SD. The argument that it's easier to kill lefties Glastrier is fallacious then.

Re: checking Glastrier with status (if you give up a moveslot for it on a wall, not all of them do), then you've given it an SD and now have to pick a pokemon. It is the most threatening breaker in the tier bar none, but its bulk means that it can trade offensively versus every revenger.

Ghosts don't resist ice. Spiritomb is in C+, often doesn't carry wisp, gets outsped by anyone with a tiny investment, and does nothing back. Cofagrigus doesn't win if it comes in on an SD, which it often will unless you want to sac something (unhealthy). Also, again, Cofagrigus is the literal best check in the meta, having defensive counterplay limited to 1 pokemon (ig pyukumuku) is not fair or fun. Sableye does have the niche of encoring it if it SDs on the Sableye switch, but what if it already SD'd, or got +1 from a kill? Then Sableye is shaky.

+2 252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 286-337 (94 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Cofagrigus: 184-217 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 226-267 (74.3 - 87.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

For the Qwilfish example, Qwilfish will generally die the turn it breaks the substitute to horsepower, or you will have traded an entire pokemon for a broken sub and a toxic. Status doesn't even long-term cripple Glastrier given that clerics are pretty mandatory in this meta anyway, and you can see how Glastrier is able to easily beat one of its best "checks" in the meta.

I'm done arguing, please suspect :)
 
Just gonna
Respectfully, idk if you’re engaging in this debate to be a troll or you just don’t understand or haven’t played the tier recently. Either way I’ll bite and give you line by lines. I’m not gonna be nearly as eloquent or put as much evidence bc a lot of it has already been said and I cba.



It having no recovery does not stop it from being broken. Both leftover, HDB, Lum, and Choice band are all viable options on Glast. They all struggle with different things but all fundamentally allow it to stick around for longer games or break faster depending on your cup of tea. I don’t think you play the tier if you believe wish support is a fundamental part of sszu. HW would be the second wind that would be the most common but it doesn’t even need it, heal bell support is enough to allow Glast in multiple times. If getting a status on a Mon is your idea of good counterplay to it then it’s clearly broken.





pinorska already touched on this but there is a clear way to stop the ‘trading’ that was alleged to be mandatory. Switching out. Every single Mon you listed, which kind you, only one or two of the OHKO from full, has multiple safe switch ins whereas NONE of them can hard switch into Glast. Which means it picks up a kill every time it is safely on the field by virtue of being strong asf. So, and I regret I have to explain this, the Glast player can just switch out after killing something, and then get back in safely on a passive Mon later in the game. Regardless, behind a substitute Glast will just kill your rkill option and now what do you do?

Onto the second post, ID Glast is not winning as much as offensive. It’s still worth discussing, and arguably more broken with support and coverage for cofa(teammate support), but does not help the DNB argument at all.

The second point was about more defensive counterplay.
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 214-253 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 312-368 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Qwilfish: 282-332 (104 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Cofagrigus: 138-163 (43.2 - 51%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 169-201 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

All these calcs can be switched to +2 Glast if you’re referring to SD. Besides the Sableye, but with regards to Sableye, atp you’d HAVE to use sab+some other ‘check’ on your team and make every predict correct or else risk losing your fight immunity and set up counterplay.

Just felt I needed to respond as these arguments are really kinda nonsensical once you look at real game application. I’m gonna drop some replays from my ZU ssnl and ZU majors asw to show how threatening it is later.
I'm not trolling, generally think this lmao. Maybe it was me saying its B+, I do generally think that, you can make a case for A- but imo that's where it would be.

I think CB is subpar compared to the other sets, mostly just because it has so much more potential in it's sets then a slow banded mon with a weakness to rocks and generally when i played that set it just hit something once and died, especially because its now locked in and doesn't get to use its coverage anymore. I think you still need to respect it while fighting it which well, yeah that can be really problematic to face.

I think Lum is definitely an interesting set to run to try and get rid of Glastriers weakness to Status moves, I haven't seen much about it but i have no doubt its a cool set. I personally like Custap a little bit because like i said, Glastrier does have a tendency to trade (which ill get onto points about in a moment) and running Custap Berry can allow you to have more of a 2:1 ratio on these trades.

I think forcing Glastrier to switch out is really good for you actually. Having to make the opposing team now have to find another option to get Glastrier in can be really hard for the opposing team, especially with rocks up, as it's not unreasonable to assume at this point that it could of been hit by Knock Off to get rid of boots or its just running leftovers. You're right with the passive mons argument but you would probably play around Glastrier and stop it from coming in so easily. And with the substitute point, i still have yet to see a Glastrier who's actually been able to keep its sub up after killing something just due to it being slow and of course the ice type gives some really nasty weaknesses that you can exploit. (also i probably shouldn't of brung up wish at all pretty dumb of me LMFAO)

otherwise i'm probably not gonna say much more because i'm not very good at debating at all and a lot of what I could say is probably going to be said better than someone who has much more experience then me in stuff like this and can actually bring more relevant points to this discussion, i just wanted to give me opinion on the funny horse and what i have seen in game personally.

Edit: This aged horribly, I don't agree with most of the points I made anymore, probably should of took more time surveying the Mon, I'm glad I made these posts though just to show how weak the anti ban side is for this Mon in general.
 
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Tuthur

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I hadn't planned to post about drops, before I had time to significantly test them. However with some discussions on going now, I thought it could be interesting to give my two cents on the drops and how they should be tiered in ZU.

Like Danny said, NU was considering banning Glastrier when it first dropped, yet it still fell in PU. If I remember correctly, Glastrier also scared PU when it dropped, and yet it proved to be fine. This let me think that Glastrier may be at the right place in ZU, despite looking broken on paper. While I understand it is annoying for people playing in Majors and Fall Seasonal, especially the ones who play these tournaments as their last chances to qualify for circuit playoffs, in my opinion, giving a couple weeks to determine whether Glastrier is balanced or not didn't sound like a terrible idea to me. Cofagrigus's and Perrserker's drops already meant that the metagame will be completely shifted as they are both great mon that already demolish a lot of pre-shifts builds, like most Miltank+Articuno+Palossand balance, Toxic Klinklang teams, and Roselia+Pawniard balance. The teams were my sole Steel-resist is Rapidash get owned by Perrserker that can just OHKO with Tough Claws Close Combat, and most of my teams lacking either Skuntank or Alcremie lose to Cofagrigus. My first impression is that the metagame will have to drastically shift whether Glastrier stays or not, and we'll have to come up with new defensive cores to contain these three threats (with Cofagrigus helping with beating them funnily enough). From my limited experience testing a couple fresh teams on the ladder, Cofagrigus was sometimes as dangerous, if not more, than Glastrier. Cofagrigus is able to setup versus most physical attackers and most special attackers struggle to switch into it to deny Iron Defense, as they are often weak to either Body Press or Shadow Ball.

Anyway, I hope we all can get a better picture of the new metagame soon enough, and the council will be sure to address the drops in the next weeks. I can totally imagine Glastrier getting treated like Ninjask with a quickban into retest if it proves to be so unbalanced. Do not hesitate to keep posting about the drops or new cores/sets you found to beat them.
 

Tuthur

uoduodnoR
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:ss/glastrier:
Glastrier has been unanimously quickbanned from SS ZU. Council also voted on if Glastrier should be instantly retested or not, and it won't be.
Corthius: Quickban with no retest
Drud: Quickban into retest
OranBerryBlissey10: Quickban with no retest
S1nn0hC0nfirm3d: Quickban into retest
Tuthur: Quickban with no retest

Glastrier overall lacked counterplay. With its gigantic 100/130/110 bulk, Glastrier easily finds opportunities to setup with Swords Dance or Iron Defense versus most walls like Tangela, Miltank, and Articuno, that aren't even able to break its Substitutes. With its huge 145 Atk stat and great Ice/Fighting/Ground coverage, Glastrier can break through almost everything in the tier with Sableye and physically defensive Pokemon boosting their Defense in Cofagrigus and Alcremie being the most consistent checks. Offensively, despite its abysmall Speed, revenge killing Glastrier is extremely hard as it beats most threats 1v1; even super effective or Choice boosted STAB moves and like Rapidash's Flare Blitz, Choice Specs Exeggutor's Leaf Storm, and Klinklang's Gear Grind cannot OHKO Glastrier, while Glastrier OHKOes them back. All in all, Glastrier is just broken, with too few checks and the ability to effortlessly get multiple KOes per game.
 
Hi there! I've been playing ZU for a little bit now and I apologize if this post isn't the greatest- I've played PS for years but never really participated in any community, and I've really been enjoying ZU, so I figured it would be good to start somewhere! I have a Butterfree I've been using a bit to pretty decent results, and I saw it doesn't really have much going on right now other than the one Quiver Dance sample.


Butterfree @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stun Spore
- Hurricane
- Sleep Powder
- Electroweb

I find it works good starting as you can pretty reliably sleep before someone can get set up, and the additional confusion from Hurricane can hinder this as well. The sash works well with Electroweb as it means you can slow down an incoming threat and potentially sleep it the next turn if you've slowed it sufficiently to outspeed.
 

viet noa

eating neopronoun pizza at little xe/xyrs
is a Pre-Contributor
:ss/perrserker:

It's a shame, because I really like some of the value Perrserker brings to the tier. As a decently bulky Steel-type, Perrserker actually has some nice defensive utility. I've been messing around with a physdef RestTalk set that can switch into CB Froslass and Klinklang, which has been fun.

That said, when Perrserker goes on the offensive side ... what switches into it? Pretty much nothing. As much as I love Perrserker, its brute strength is genuinely insane for the tier and makes it banworthy.

:ss/cofagrigus:

I'm normally a big fan of adding defensive mons to the meta, and I did like it when Cofagrigus was a balanced part of ZU. That said, with a lot of physical threats from a year and a half ago being either (a) banned or (b) moved up to PU, a lot of what made Cofagrigus balanced is mostly gone.

No matter how bulky a top-tier wall is, like Tangela or Articuno, they still aren't unbreakable on their strong side. There already are very few physical attackers that can threaten Cofagrigus switching in, but with an Iron Defense boost, it becomes impossible to kill physically. It's one thing to be a wall, and it's another thing being a whole entire fortess.

Sadly, I feel like both of these Pokemon, while interesting in theory, are banworthy.
 
Heya people of ZU, I wanted to give my opinions on the two remaining drops that have been running around the tier even since Glastrier got banned, i think while they are both quite interesting mons in our tier, they are both potentially banworthy and unhealthy in this meta.

I will start with the one with no switch ins at all; Perrserker.
:ss/perrserker:

Perrserker @ Choice Band
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Double Edge/Seed Bomb/Lash Out

Perrserker can basically choose its counters. You thought Cramorant and Rotom-Fan were hard counters?

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Perrserker Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Cramorant: 266-314 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Perrserker Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Fan: 235-277 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nope, they both cannot take Double Edges well at all. What about Qwilfish? That should do pretty well right? Intimidate should make sure Perrserker doesn't do that much dam-

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Perrserker Lash Out vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Qwilfish: 207-244 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think you get the point now. I could go further and talk about Poliwrath and Pyukumuku but it would just be repeating the same points. Perrserker is able to choose what's able to counter it. This makes fighting it a massive pain as that one filler slot can be all it takes for Perrserker to absolutely destroy you with its Banded set, not to mention it can pivot on its counters anyway with U-turn, making a very good volt-turn core with Rotom.

Perrserker isn't even defined solely by that Banded set, it has the option of a SubSD to beat mons such as Tangela trying to beat it 1v1 or generally just take advantage of all the switches that Perrserker naturally causes, sometimes this set just causes the opposition to have to sack something, as substituting on a Tangela ready to regen off your damage is just so devastating. Here is the set if you are interested.

Perrserker @ Leftovers
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 16 HP / 228 Atk / 12 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

The other mon i would deem banworthy who came in the drops is Cofagrigus
:ss/cofagrigus:

Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Shadow Ball
- Trick Room

Cofagrigus @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Shadow Ball
- Rest

Where do i even start here? Cofagrigus has limited switch ins, Ghost + Fighting coverage is absolutely amazing for it in Shadow Ball + Body Press. I usually see Cofagrigus paired with pivots such as Clefairy, and this is what brings out the utter broken aspect of Cofagrigus; this mon is so hard to pivot into once it has gotten in, especially for offense (not so much set up spam however) once it has gotten in on a pivot. Dark and Ghost types simply cannot switch in, Cofagrigus covers them with its coverage + stab move. Your options for switching in are Alcremie (probably the best counter as it fits on the most team archetypes), Pyukumuku, Sableye (a little shaky due to SpDef Drops), Skuntank (once only) and Haze variants of Altaria. It's an absolute meance to fight, and you will find yourself being cleaned by this mon often, especially the Offensive Trick Room variant which can take many by suprise and turn Cofagrigus's low speed stat into its greatest weapon, making it almost impossible to revenge kill. Rest stays the standard due to being able to heal off status and keeps itself healthy however, must be paired with cleric support from the likes of Alcremie, Clefairy, Altaria or Miltank however. Alcremie and Clefairy get a special mention as Alcremie and Cofagrigus account for eachothers weaknesses quite well as Cofagrigus resists Poison and Alcremie Resists Dark while Alcremie still remains offensively threatening to the opposing team, and Cofagrigus can use Clefairy to get in on mons like Perrserker and Sawk, who Cofagrigus beats 1v1. Speaking of which, literally any physical attacker it gets a pivot into, Cofagrigus can beat, its just that strong as a physical wall.

There we go! That about sums up my opinions after seeing what these two mons can do in this tier. We simply just don't have the manpower to deal with these mons at the moment and the tier has changed quite a bit ever since they left, as a result, I personally think these two deserve a suspect test as they are just two very hard mons to deal with on a team. Let me know if you have any criticism, i'm always looking to improve and i'm interested on what others may think on the topic of these two.
 
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Hi, I don't usually post but I do want to briefly share my thoughts on Perrserker and Cofagrigus.

Starting with Perr, I think its power has been exaggerated. Yes, it can be difficult to switch into and may feel like a guessing game but keep in mind that the user of Perr too has to inherit some risk when guessing. One bad prediction and suddenly the momentum is in your favor. One bad prediction and this frail and slow Mon has to look for another opportunity to come in safely. Sure, it sucks when you guess wrong and lose a Mon but afterwards you have an opportunity to gain momentum of your own. Of course, some of this is counterplay is determined by your build, so I advise you build with this in mind. Including something that can take advantage of Perr being locked into an unfavorable coverage move. Give it some time, build with a purpose in mind and play smart. You'll find that it does indeed have it's fair share of weaknesses.

Now on to Cofa. Much like Perr, this too can be a scary threat. If your team isn't built with this in mind or you misplay your outs it can easily wipe you. However, I believe that we have sufficient counterplay. Like Perr, Cofa too suffers from low speed meaning there are ample opportunities to take advantage of it. I personally like to utilize status moves to handle it. Encore, Taunt, Toxic, Leech Seed, WoW and Haze all make it hard for Cofa to gain initiative. Some might argue that TR alleviates it's speed problems or that Rest solves the issue of some status. While that can be true, also consider that you only have 4 slots. If you're running rest or TR you're lacking recovery or are stuck sleeping for 2 turns. Even if your team lacks these status moves I find that Cofa has a hard time facing special attackers that can take body presses. These can include Rotom-S, Alcremie, Altaria, Roselia, Tangela, etc. All of these mons are viable and common enough that you don't have to go out of your way to include them in your team.

I could say so much more but I'll leave it at this for now. Basically, these are both really good but far from broken and restricting.
 
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Louna

axel112#6311
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
i'm too lazy to speak about cofagrigus rn since pretty much anything i can think about has already been said here or on the ss zu chan on zu discord. will probably edit this later or make another post about it if i find something interesting that hasn't been pointed out yet but i'd like to speak about perrserker as well as some mons i think are really appreciating these recents drops as well as some common things that became worse.

Perrserker :

:perrserker:

a lot has already been said about perrserker's breaker potential, but i'd like to point out something i think makes it just too much for the tiers rn, i get that perrserker is really prediction reliant, but thats kinda under estimating how free it is to click uturn most of the time, the number of pokemon that are able to punish this are limited to 5 in flame body rapidash/coalossal and rocky helmet qwilfish/galarian stunfisk/poliwrath (helmet miltank and stunfisk to a lesser extend since they takes a decent chip on this unlike the others), since most perrserker answer are super passive (stunfisk/galarian stunfisk/defensive qwilfish/coalossal) or are naturally checked in the teambuilder for rapidash. this means even if you aren't clicking your stab or a coverage move it just allows you to get an easy advantage at the cost of helmet chip, rapidash is probably the best way to punish this but it still does it only 30% of the time meaning the other 70% it'll just gain advantage while chipping it. if banded it sounds pretty safe to click since it'll still do decent damages to pretty much everything early game, it obviously can't do it during the whole game it'll end up being punished by flame body or just too much helmet/hazards damages, but that'll come at the cost of being behind offensively until then


The winners:

:Thievul:

i'll only talk about specs thievul since i have no experience with the electric terrain set outside of getting 6-0'd by it in my game against PrinceOfAllTacos this ZUPL even tho electric terrain sounds kinda nice on paper due to all these teams that rely on rest cofagrigus.
specs thievul volturn is doing well rn imo thanks to cofagrigus being everywhere, alcremie being a bit more common could've hindered it if one of its best partner in perrserker didn't drop last shifts. a lot of teams heavily relying on articuno and cryogonal makes specs thievul really valuable since it can easily force a huge koff on either of them early on due to its sheer power and then proceed to dismantle it once rocks are up or even just parting shot into big boy perrserker to get a free big hit. the tiers being kind of slow overall also helps it a lot since it'll get a lot of stakeout occasion.

:alcremie:

even tho perrserker is super annoying for it, alcremie makes for a super nasty core with cofagrigus being able to take care of its sleeping status with aromatherapy if needed, abusing potential sableye that annoy its partner, taking advantage of haze/roar altaria while cofagrigus take advantage of haze articuno if body press, being one of the best answer to cofagrigus also is really big atm

:skuntank:

skuntank already was a really good breaker before but alcremie+cofagrigus being a super common core only makes it better, skuntank being probably one of the best way to dismantle this core. corrosive gas is just real good due to a lot of teams being real fat and really dependant on heavy duty boots/eviolite/leftovers. perrserker is also an amazing partner for it thanks to its ability to force potential stunfisk and its galarian form to pivot into it and take decent chip, while also abusing articuno and cryogonal which both could be annoying to break if taunt is your move of choice skuntank is also probably one of the best answer to nasty plot trick room cofagrigus which is super valuable since this set can easily surprise if it was assumed to be another set

:exeggutor:

i maybe could have included beheeyem here but i have no experience with this pokemon so i'll only talk about exeggutor, cofagrigus cores being really annoying to break you'll want to always put some pressure on this, future sight is just really good at that, exeggutor was super annoyed by articuno before but now that perrserker dropped, it makes for an amazing partner similarly to skuntank, most of perrserker answers are easily abused by exeggutor (stunfisk/galarian stunfisk/poison jab-less qwilfish) while it can works with perrserker as a terrifying breaker core if ran choice specs, it can also helps it coming in thanks to teleport esp since eggy tends to force articuno and crygonoal in really often.

The losers

:sawk:

scarf sawk already was kind of struggling since palossand dropped imo but getting a second super fat ghost as well as alcremie being a bit easier to use is just deadly for scarf sawk, close combat from a pure fighting type is just too hard to click and being locked on, making it a bit more predictable which is something you really don't want with sawk usually, still does pretty well against offensive teams but it feels like high risk low reward against anything thats not offense atm

:klinklang:

the most controversial pokemon of the tiers got 2 new decent check and some more competition as a steel type, the metagame already adapted to it pretty well adding these klinklang is a bit struggling, sableye being a bit more popular lately due to it being an okayish cofagrigus answer doesn't help it either, cofagrigus might not be the best answer to it but mummy allowing a potential qwilfish team mate to intimidate klinklang puts it in a more awkward position than it already was against it as well. rn a lot of teams will prefere the immediate firepower of perrserker over the way more slow paced klinklang.

:silvally-poison:

silvally-poison was a pretty good breaker thanks to its ability to cover pretty much anything with multi attack/surf/tbolt alongside work up even tho it already had to choose if it wanted flamethrower or not, while sd sets could also be a strong way to break bulkier teams, but with cofagrigus around now, it'll have to choose between one of these options or shadow ball on mixed sets meaning it'll be way easier to play around, perrserker also dropping doesn't help either since multi attack is easier to punish, sd sets will also have to choose between hitting cofagrigus, hitting rhydon or flame charge which feels pretty annoying. being a great alcremie answer in this meta sounds appealing but being punished by cofagrigus one of its best team mate atm just feels super annoying

:coalossal:

coalossal sounds kinda hard to use, it already was struggling to spin since palossand dropped, but gaining another ghost that can stay alive long term is just too much for coal to be a good spinner atm imo, having your fire type being setup fodder for the more common alcremie as well as not resisting steel type really doesn't help it either. it still sounds okayish as a sr+spikes compression but qwilfish is far more easier to use as a spiker atm due to perrserker

these are obviously my own point of view, hope everything i said is clear this has been a pain to write on mobile, feel free to dm on discord, i'd love to exchange opinions on what i think is a pretty fun metagame
 
I’d like to propose quickbanning or at least suspect testing perrserker— with cc and steel move (could run lash out for qwilfish) this thing shreds defensive staples in the tier like Roselia, Tangela, Pawniard, Altaria, and Articuno. It definitely has room to run sub on a lot of sets, (of which scarf, band, sub 3a, sd 3a, and sub sd 2a are all very good) which it can bulk not to get broken by palossand and easily 2hko even bold palossand with ironhead. Its ability steely spirit also pushes it past the threshold of reasonability. It is really only (hardly) checked defensively by Cofagrigus, and due to its bulk, is hard to revenge kill. Sawk is a decent option, but if it runs into a sub variant of Perrserker, it dies to iron head after a CC drop.
Perrserker will completely warp the meta with a month left of the generation; action should be taken swiftly to prevent this. None of my teams built within the last two months are useable because of Perrserker. Why it is being allowed in SSNL and majors is beyond me, and I am strongly considering dropping from majors before I get turbo ratio’d by a Perrserker that the tier doesn’t have the tools to trade against.
 
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