Metagame NP ZU Stage 14: Firestarter - Tiering Survey #18

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:sv/charizard:​

Charizard is not a new face in the ZU tier, previously sitting as the sole S-rank Pokemon in October before falling back down to A+ just shy of two months later as the meta evolved. Following the Dudunsparce ban at the end of November and Cramorant's recent rise to PU, Charizard stocks went way up as two of its most consistent and viable answers were no longer in the picture. Once again, Charizard finds itself as the meta-dominant mon it once was, mostly attributed to the ease it has to wear down its checks. Will-O-Wisp is standard alongside its dual STAB as a means to neuter answers like Regirock, Snorlax lacking Rest and/or Facade, and Porygon2. Moreover, these mons typically cannot afford to run Heavy-Duty Boots, which limits their longevity in a metagame overrun by hazards and not enough removal.

That's not all that makes Charizard a top-tier threat, though. Its Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Hurricane, and Air Slash all hit hard off of its impressive base 109 Special Attack. Its speed is also incredibly respectable in the tier at the moment, notably outspeed unboosted and non-Choice Scarf Oricorio, both Rotom forms (Frostom is not real), Qwilfish, and Mesprit. Although not as common or as potent, physical sets with Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, and Belly Drum do exist and require an entirely new set of checks.

Additionally, Charizard synergizes exceedingly well with two other top mons--Floatzel and the aforementioned Rotom-Mow. These two both possess strong pivoting moves in Volt Switch and Flip Turn, respectively, to get in Charizard as the opponent swaps into a check like Lurantis or Dipplin. Now the opponent has to try to reposition as the Charizard user to throw out strong STAB attacks, burn a target, or shuffle them out with Roar or Dragon Tail, which pairs especially well with the aforementioned hazards. Pokemon like Lanturn and Naclstack, while niche, served as usable enough checks to Charizard that both resisted its dual STAB; now Rotom-Mow beats them with ease.

However, not all is lost. Many offensive threats are naturally faster and common Choice Scarf users, particularly Rotom-Mow and Floatzel, outspeed Charizard and threaten the KO. It also does not have the strongest defenses: Choice Scarf Passimian's Tera Fighting Close Combat is a clean 2hko on a resisted hit. Knock Off from the likes of Mesprit, Passimian, Hitmonlee, and Muk sharply reduce Charizard's chance at success thanks to its 2x weakness to Stealth Rock upon switch-in.

While in a vaccuum, Charizard might be manageable, its dynamic with teammates such as these strong, fast pivoters and its interactions with its checks have led for many to call for action to take place. As such, the Council has decided to suspect Charizard!

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in ZU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played ZU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact me, Tuthur, or a member of staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2920. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 4. The suspect test will go on for about 14 days, lasting until Thursday, February 13th at 11:59 pm GMT-5 and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the ZU council. Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

Avoid posting one-liners or posts that do not contribute to any discussion. They will be deleted.
 
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I have been too busy to participate in the last few suspect tests unfortunately but should have time to do this one, where I plan on voting Ban. Considering I advocated for either a Charizard or Floatzel suspect, I'll post a few thoughts on why below (a lot of which wooper already illustrated quite well in the original post).

My opinion on Charizard has remained roughly the same as it was at the start of UMPL, where I didn't build with it much myself but struggled to find consistent means of beating it that wouldn't make my teams generally worse into other structures. Having to run either Lanturn, Porygon2, or Regirock to keep it in check gets monotonous at times and they are all susceptible to getting worn down by the combination of hazard chip damage and Will-O-Wisp. At times I would try alternative checks that weren't too bad, like specially defensive Mesprit and Oricorio, but these had plenty of flaws too. The best Charizard check was undoubtably Cramorant, as it didn't care about getting burned and was a very disruptive entry hazard removal option for teams.

I think just about every team composition fits Charizard pretty well. Offensive structures using either Floatzel or Rotom-C, sometimes both, allow Charizard multiple safe entry points against foes like Arboliva, Brute Bonnet, and Qwilfish. Entry hazard stacking structures are potent as the removal options in the tier are dire and would-be Charizard checks like mentioned above, especially Porygon2, are incredibly easy to wear down with burn and hazard chip. Balance and bulky offense cores can consistently run three to four pivots, like Floatzel/Mesprit/Perrserker/Rotom-C for instance, which makes getting Charizard on the field incredibly easy - especially if you use something like Healing Wish Mesprit to help recoup any chip damage Charizard takes.

Another element of Charizard that has come up recently: Sun. I think Sun teams are still fishy but they are clearly relevant enough as we've seen a lot of people opting to use Tera Dragon on their P2's and Regirock's. While this is probably fine and doesn't indicate Charizard itself is unhealthy, it does take away a key defensive element from these two and makes regular balance and bulky offense teams have an easier time breaking through them, as those two especially prefer Tera Fairy and Tera Poison more to keep stuff like Passimian in check.

Accounting for the plethora of offensive structures has gotten harder after the January shift and Charizard is a recurring theme in why, which is why I hope to see it removed from the tier. I don't think the tier loses much from having it leave, as it isn't the only thing keeping certain things like Choice Specs Whimsicott in check by any means. After this, I would not be surprised to see Floatzel become less problematic, as using stuff like Qwilfish and Sandslash will be easier to justify (although Rotom-C staying has made this hard...).
 
It's probably too late at night for me to worry about what I think of the obscure fire bird pokemon (wish it got a cool alternate form or 3), but I'd rather post now than do something like 'sleep' or 'be productive.'

My gut reaction to this was that Charizard isn't broken. It's definitely centralizing, but it has its checks. Since I did this for Floatzel, I wanted to actually look at the number of checks Charizard has, and defensively, all of Zard's checks are either in the OP or terrible. The list of what I consider a reliable defensive Zard counter is Lanturn, P2, and Regirock. The other defensive counterplay is Mesprit, Naclstack, Snorlax?, your own Charizard, and then niche stuff like Muk. That's it. Anything else with a good SpDef stat is weak to fire pre-tera (or is mismagius, hopefully nobody uses it as a wall).

On top of that, I do have the perfect replay of a Charizard doing everything that supposedly makes it broken – threatening an entire team, wisping a counter, evading that counter and putting pressure on the team, and breaking through that Regirock. The Charizard dies at turn 34 so you can skip anything that happens after that (haha dont worry about it)

Despite that, that game is the one time I have seen a Charizard pop off that much. Special Charizard is almost always running flamethrower/hurricane/scorching sands or eq/wisp, and Charizard can't afford to run an item besides Heavy-Duty boots if it wants to keep 50% of its HP. That set is very predictable, and if you bring counterplay for it, only something like a roar(??? idk) or a rogue tera type can surprise you. Physical sets are worse, and I guess they can eat up Porygon2, but there is a reason (that is probably regirock shaped) why people lean to the special sets.

Since it's always running boots, you don't have to worry about a surprise scarf set, which makes offensive counterplay reliable. Zard is countered by VoltTurn friends like Jolteon, Float, and Scarf Mowtom, among other mons like Passimian and Virizion that get rock coverage to make Charizard very unhappy.

I really wish I could make the list of offensive checks to Charizard longer, but like the defensive ones, that's basically it- scarf electrics or fighting types with rock coverage. It's not hard to chip down and therefore not impossible to revenge KO, but the Charizard could just switch out. As you pivot...

When I started this post, I thought that there was a little more counterplay to Zard than a couple of mons. I'm starting to see how it encourages this VoltTurn meta and requires specific pokemon to check it. I'm also not sure if those mons are good because of Zard or if that's just a bonus. However, I've never struggled to check Zard in the builder. When I add a P2 or Volt Absorb Lanturn to wall the relevant special attackers, I'm doing that for electrics and Charizard. And yes, I have tried Klawf as a special wall because it resists both of Charizard's STABs, but I'm not going to admit I'm crazy until I slot in Tera Rock Ancient Power Cryogonal as my only zard check.

I don't think a ban on Charizard is going to open up the builder too much outside of letting Poliwrath live Hurricane-free, and something like Typhlosion could take Charizard's place. That aside, Charizard is so centralizing in this meta that I can't not agree with a ban.

tldr zard is strong, (over)centralizing, and its checks are limited defensively and the voltturn mons offensively
 
I don't think Zard is too broken or significantly hampers building more than any other centralizing Pokemon. Counters to Zard are extremely splashable and consistent, and I think at least one of Pokemon like Snorlax, Porygon2, Regirock, and Lanturn would find themselves on 90% of builds regardless of Charizards presence. This isn't even including common checks/revenge killers such as Floatzel, Scarfers like Rotom Mow, Tera, and Viriz. I think an argument can be made to Wisp seriously crippling Lax/Regi to an unreasonable degree, but I just don't think it's to a bannable degree. In the end, I hope Charizard stays, but won't be torn up if it leaves either.
 
After actually getting reqs (got 22-8 up to 38-9 w/ 77.5% gxe and a lot of luck), I planned on reevaluating how I felt on Charizard. My view on how Charizard fits into the meta hasn't changed – it's an S-tier mon who can cripple its checks and has to be accounted for in the builder. However, I don't think that's enough to ban it, and I have settled on DNB.

When I wrote my previous post, I was conflicted. On one hand, if the meta was unhealthy and Charizard was the meta, then surely Charizard was also unhealthy. On the other, offensive and defensive Charizard checks are able to check it, it's a mon that doesn't really surprise you, and one I hadn't struggled against. I always felt like the pro-ban conclusion I reached was sound on paper, but it only made sense if I thought the meta was unhealthy.

I don't think that the meta centralized around Charizard is unhealthy, and even describing it as a 'meta centralized around charizard' feels like an exaggeration. In the builder, most of my failures aren't bad because they lost to zard, but because they lost to some other thing (or just sucked in general). I think the way the meta adapted to Charizard is healthy, and I agree with Monai's post.

I still want Floatzel suspected though. If there is something unhealthy about the meta, it's this. It's a nightmare to check because its checks are either worn down by flipturn, KO'd by wave crash, KO'd by Ice Spinner, or lose the band/scarf guessing game and die. It's harder to switch into than Charizard, since when switching into Zard you at least know what you're getting into.
 
:ss/charizard: :ss/floatzel: :ss/rotom-mow: :ss/mesprit:

People seem to be currently displeased with the meta as a whole, and Charizard is on the chopping block (for some reason). I've been vocal about my opinions in the discord but will reiterate the big points. In my opinion, Rotom-Mow is broken, Mesprit is borderline and mostly kept in check because people use either bad or support sets; Nasty Plot Encore is literally just slower stronger Uxie with little counterplay. Floatzel is too one-note to ever be too threatening: It's fast, decently strong, has Ice Spinner for grasses, can meme with Double Edge if it wants to, but apart from that is very predictable. It's going to click a physical water move, and Flip Turn is weak enough especially on Choice Scarf that even certain water-weak targets like Regirock, Sandaconda or Palossand can stay in to prevent pivoting. Both teams I used were rather weak to it and it still was barely ever an issue, and versus something like Qwilfish Spikes balance Floatzel is killing nothing but itself eventually by repeatedly headbanging and stepping onto sharp objects.

For Charizard, I'm having trouble anchoring myself just because I'm not quite sure what people feel is so broken about it. Floatzel's strengths are quite straightforward, even if I don't think it's a problem at all. Oricorio-Sensu and Dudunsparce seemed easier to discuss, because even people that disagreed with the bans could see why they were being regarded as too strong. I will try to go over some of the points that I have both heard and thought of myself, that make zard as good as it is, but in my opinion, not broken.

- Charizard has an excellent and threatening stab combo: fire/flying is annoying for most teams to switch into. However, general special walls like Porygon2 and Snorlax shut it down pretty effectively, while Lanturn and rock types like Regirock or Naclstack are fairly splashable as well. On more offensive teams, a combo of for example, Floatzel + Jolteon does just fine. Scorching Sands is exceedingly weak and the phazing options aren't exactly unique to fake orange dragons, so buy and large its stab combo is what it's working with (which is why resttalk isn't even bad).

- Charizard can disrupt/beat some answers with Will-O-Wisp: technically true, but heavily overblown. Standard zard isn't strapped for moveslots and can easily fit it, but clicking it isn't exactly free. Charizard does not have the longevity to use wisp as a stallbreaking tool, and is therefore only useful at crippling checks in the short term, most of which could not give a single fuck. Floatzel and Naclstack are immune, Porygon2 and Lanturn heal it off (or for bad Lanturn set enjoyers u are taking sight chip damage), Snorlax is often gonna have one of Rest or Facade, and even stuff like Regirock or Muk that actually cares about being burned can more often than not still do its job (zard is still dying to burned rock moves, Muk can still knock + tox everything). The only scenario where this actually alters the game significantly is Charizard tera's (which doesn't mean much) or if there's a teammate in the back that likes Regirock weakened (say a choiced Grafaiai), but like, that's just mons lol. Wisp can also be fairly telegraphed and taken advantage of with offensive counterplay.

- Charizard's physical sets can make it hard to consistently answer: the strongest argument, but I still disagree a lot with some of the things said. Belly Drum is not good/too situational, it's either Sitrus or Salac (the flaw here should be obvious) or boots, in which case it has 50% of its health to live hits, boost speed with Flame Charge (which will not even kill that much), and take recoil. Swords Dance is better, and can actually turn some matchups on its head or make them significantly easier to varying degrees. Despite that, this set can be a bit of a tera hog and still doesn't even beat Regirock with tera (trust me this sequence played out more than once in my ladder run). Being able to dunk on Lanturn and muscle past special walls like p2 can be great, but the set is generally weaker to due to Charizard's bad attack and will feel horrible against teams with middling zard counterplay.

I used this team: :jolteon:-:muk:-:regirock:-:cryogonal:-:shaymin:-:sandaconda: (and also a random sun bc ladder is a slog)
In theory it crumbles to wisp zard, as well as cb float but neither was too big of an issue in practice. Charizard simply doesn't seem overbearing to me, and I didn't even really go into detail on its flaws and vices. Something of note is that the surplus of pivoting going on is a direct result of Rotom-Mow being legal, and its removal would make Floatzel and Charizard less potent. I will be voting DNB on the latter because to me, it is not broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy and I would advise people to do the same unless their experiences were wildly different from mine.
 
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Since this does not meet the 50%+1 requirement, Charizard will remain unbanned! If you qualify for TC after this vote, DM dhelmise.
 
This past week has seen an eyebrow-raising uptick in grassy terrain/venomoth usage. Venomoth being a quiver dancer with high natural speed, tinted lens for stronger stab, and ability to muscle past p2 unlike oricorio. Grassy terrain has other deadly sweepers that stack on each other and wear down their checks (Farigiraf, Mesprit, Oricorio). I don't blame anyone that sees this single week and few days with scepticism, but I personally believe it's way more restricting than any voltturn into wallbreaker.
There are 3 reliable ways to stop it that I know of. Perhaps we will all collectively find more in the coming week, but so far they are limited to: Snorlax who can muscle through venomoth, but needs support or luck vs farig and mesprit. Prankster+encore pokemons (whimsicott, grafaiai, sableye) - mons that have fallen out of favor otherwise because they're a bit underwhelming, they can certainly be fit on some teams to help though. The last option is to out-offense which is true for any offense vs offense mu so I will ignore it in the argument for now.
No other form of offense is so oppressive that it mandates Snorlax and/or prankster encore on every bulkier team. We just had a Charizard suspect and people claiming there aren't enough zard checks... Well let's have a look and compare the two! Zard checks (Lax, P2, Lanturn, Nacl, Muk, Eeleektross, Regirock, Jolteon, knock off and a myriad of offensive checks) vs (Lax, Grafaiai, Whimsi, Sableye, a lot of Zard's offensive checks are set up fodder and knock off does nothing because seed)... Am I crazy or is this insanely lopsided!? Building has been a lot more fun to me than to most others until these terrains started getting optimized. We suspected Zard mostly because of the builder/meta strain but this is so much worse even if you think neither are broken. You can use the same arguments in favor of ban and from what I can tell you'd be closer to the truth. Also QD is an insanely corny move, and makes me immediately less charitable to any potential broken that has it.

Some recent tournament replays:

Wins:
Me vs Tuthur Open quarterfinals
Me vs TBasedGod Open semifinals
Shadow079 vs LBN g1 Open semifinals
Shadow079 vs LBN g2 open semifinals
Me vs asa Olympiad
Baddy vs LettuceLeaf Olympiad
asa vs Zause Olympiad (2 venomoths in this one)
Tuthur vs Ineros Olympiad ( Bonus test game vs baitwiz that had the same mu )
Also enough test games vs yo cho to cause a crashout, asa beat my ass in tests with her terrain too even tho I had a snorlax, it was really difficult to fight.

Losses:
bloodace vs MJ Olympiad - here the moth team isn't able to break snorlax
feen vs DripLegend Olympiad - a combination of knock magmortar for p2, prankster encore AND snorlax is too hard for this gterrain to break.

Both losses to very cheeseproof snorlax teams. I suppose that's a reliable stop, but is this really a healthy meta? I know we're tired of suspecting incorrect mons and people want to wait it out until shifts, but unless I'm crazy this is actually way more limiting than our previous targets?!? And like damn man, i still have some teams to build as a poached SV slave/open finalist SOB!! I personally think we should look into Venomoth, or grassy seed, or seeds as a whole (and free unburden!). Or at least continue the discussion until we develop more counterplay. Ty for reading/considering.
 
Wanted to drop some opinions on the whole Venomoth/Terrain thing. I feel like it's pretty easy to agree that Venomoth is broken, esp when it looks exactly like an Oricorio in some of the replays above. I'd argue that Sensu had more counterplay, especially since you have to predict what moves out of QD + morning sun + sub + disable + buzz + tblast a venomoth is running, while Sensu was most commonly flying + qd + roost and then one of revdance taunt and sub.

I don't think Venomoth is QB worthy yet, however. The mon has been meta relevant for basically one week, so even though I agree that it has limited counterplay, there has been no time for the meta to adapt into counterplay for it. I know this argument doesn't have the weight I think it does, since if it's clearly broken it should be banned, but I don't think a mon I have never prep'd for due to its irrelevance 2 weeks ago can be clearly broken.

As far as terrain goes, I don't think it's broken, and in most of the replays above, Venomoth looked more like a problem than terrain in general. If it were broken, I would support a Grassy Surge ban over Thwackey since I think the bar of Grookey becoming viable without Thwackey would be met, and then a Grassy Seed ban since its the only seed people use, although I wouldn't disagree with a seed band over a setter ban. I don't think Unburden should ever be unbanned since I think it's what pushed terrain over the edge the last time Grookey and Indeedee were viable. Action on terrain is not needed rn, since the playstyle is nowhere near its previous dominance. I also think that the other seeds/terrains suck and shouldn't be touched.

Again, I don't think terrain is broken/unhealthy/uncompetitive in this meta. Venomoth is noticeably more problematic, and I think it's too early to ban Venomoth anyways.
 
Since the banning of Oricorio-Sensu, Venomoth has risen to new heights in our beloved tier. The set variety in support moves, the omni boosting Quiver Dance, Terastalization use to bypass checks, and prominence in Grassy Terrain with the Defense boost from the Grassy Seed, has proven to be too much for the tier. This led the council to a quick ban voting that resulted in 7 out of 9 members voting in favor of a ban (results are posted below). Therefore, Venomoth has been quickbanned from SV ZU. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to implement please. Thank you!


Drudfish anemometerLustfulLiceMonaiOranBerryBlissey10Tuthuryo chosleiddiegoyuhhi
Venomothbanbanbandnbbandnbbanbanban
 
I find it humorous how completely unviable torkoal is, it literally has no niche outside of being a shitty spinner because it’s defensive typing is mid, it can’t get rocks up reliably due to its lack of longevity or special bulk and shell smash is impossible to win with because it has no speed to boost

Furthermore, it’s specs set outclassed by other fire type attackers WITHOUT specs like charizard and pyroar since it can never use a max power eruption, overall I really wish people would stop using it on ladder
 
Tier shifts happened! Woooooo!

Porygon2 moved from NFE to NU
Bruxish moved from ZUBL to PU
Dudunsparce moved from ZUBL to PU
Avalugg-Hisui moved from ZU to PU
Hitmonlee moved from ZU to PU
Palossand moved from ZU to PU
Qwilfish moved from ZU to PU

Lycanroc moved from PU to ZU
Minior moved from PU to ZU

Stall is dead! Sand is back! ZUWC will be amazing! Happy posting everyone!
 
Minior is a powerful and centralising new addition for hyper offense teams, its meteor form has enough bulk to easily set up and its core form has enough stats to easily cleave through teams with its powerful stone edge with the limited amount of resists getting hit hard by earthquake or its stab acrobatics, it can also run a calm mind + agility set to take advantage of its meteor form’s bulk without white herb since it has also good special attack at core form, the fact that multiple defensive cornerstones have been stolen certainly helps

However the loss of two valuable hazard removers means that hazard stack will be even stronger in ZU, forcing minior to either run boots which costs it the ability to use acrobatics or take 25% damage with herb.
 
It's crazy how losing half of the the entire tier's defensive staples shakes up the meta, between both Avalugg-H and P2 leaving. Unfortunately, I actually have to learn how to run defensive mons and spinners now, since I can't slap both of those onto a team and be good on both fronts anymore (im pretending i used avalugg here).

I wanted to go over some mons that I think are winning big or losing hard after the shifts.

Winners:
:Lycanroc:
I AM SO HAPPY WE GOT HIM BACK HE'S A GOOD BOI. I tried building with other offensive rock types last meta, and Lycan-m was fine, but it was hard to fit onto teams. There's a part of me that hopes that normal lycan isn't relegated to suicide lead since I really really want a fast rock type attacker to bop some Charizard in this meta, and I'm excited to roc with it because I'm lycan it a lot.

:Jolteon: (and all electrics really)
Porygon2 was sometimes run as a de-facto electric resist, although it had to be wary of being tricked a scarf. It's been no secret that our electric immunes are basically limited to Lanturn and hoping your grass lives long enough, so I can see these being more of a problem to deal with. All the electrics have slightly different roles too, which is going to be 'fun' to build around. Jolteon in particular might be the biggest headache. CM Jolt was everywhere (in my eyes) during early Olympiad, but once P2 figured out how to wall it, it fell off the planet.

:Lanturn:
Speaking of electric immunities, this thing is probably going to be meta again. It is definitely worse than P2 as a general Zard counter since it fears ground coverage and is reliant on rest for recovery, but between that and Volt Absorb (which you should run, i KNOW you aren't tera ground on anything and you have a tera somewhere to be better into Floatzel), Lanturn stocks are pretty high.

:Floatzel:
I haven't used Qwilfish to check this thing in forever to be fair, which means it's not actually winning as hard as the previous 2, but it also can aqua jet that Minor you're facing in 2 minutes.

:Qwilfish-Hisui:
It might not be water-type, but by being the same thing as Qwilfish with a fresh coat of paint, it's the closest Qwil replacement we have. I mean, they're basically the same. This one was definitely worse offensively and defensively because of Floatzel, but same mon. Qwil-H also has the benefit of not being as catastrophically bad into Mowtom.

:orthworm:
Guess who counters Minior? It's probably good running alongside Minior too, since you then have a backup plan if you lose the speed tie and stone edge still misses.

"The Next Best Option:"
:Froslass: / :Lycanroc:
Since I'm trying to advocate for Lycanroc not being just a HO lead, I need to do my duty and remind people of Froslass. Instead of spinning like Avalugg, it has to taunt hazard setters, but it's fast enough to do so.

There really isn't any reason I can think of to go Lycan > lass or lass > lycan; they're the exact same mon but with completely different moves (spikes/sr, dbond/endeavor, ice shard/accelerock, triple axel/rockblast, polter/stone edge, taunt/taunt). The only real difference is Cursed Body on Froslass, which is enough for me to say its better than lycan, but not enough to make them not equal.

L:
:Charizard:
Charizard did just lose its best check, but that means nothing when mons like Minior, Jolteon, Lycanroc, Lanturn, and Floatzel are absolutely thriving. It's also setup fodder for Minior, because it resists/is immune to every move it has and shields down blocks status (take notes ppl like me who haven't seen one of these things since pangea)

Idk is anything else really losing? we lost everything that counters anything, so everything feels slightly better

HEAT:
:Piloswine:
+2 252+ Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP 30 IVs / 0 Def Minior: 278-330 (106.9 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP 30 IVs / 0 Def Minior: 132-156 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
On top of that, it's good into Charizard because of Thick Fat, it can Ice Shard down a Mowtom at 35%, it can make a Sandslash think twice about switching in and spinning (if you don't fear knock), and it's a ground-type.

:Quaxwell:
Well, we just lost our best defensive water, and a zard check, and a removal mon. If only there was a mon who could fit all three roles...
Well, it is a very shaky answer since it juuust dodges 2HKOs on most attacks when (not if) it's been irritated all match, but if it's healthy somehow, it's 3HKO'd by Hurricane and CB tera water wave crash. I know we just got rid of it on the VR, but I'm desperate enough that I think it's worth giving Quax another shot
252 SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 152+ SpD Eviolite Quaxwell: 118-139 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage (clean 3hko in any other circumstance)
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Eviolite Quaxwell: 138-163 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Charge Beam
With P2 no longer being the undisputed best charge beam user, here is a list of of mons that learn charge beam that you can use instead, arranged by how viable I think they are, and separated by whether I would or wouldn't try them:
:mesprit: (mystical power lol) :rotom-mow: :mismagius: :eelektross: :magneton: | :lanturn: :chimecho: :regice: :dusclops: :porygon:
 
I've been seeing more of floatzel on the ladder ever since the tier shifts, as it has less pokemon capable of switching into its wave crash which can even pressure resists, its strongest set is by far choice band which acts a vicious wallbreaker and revenge killer that only truly fears water absorbers (it can pivot on dipplin and bonnet), many teams struggle to handle it as floaty can shatter defensive cores like sugar glass if not prepared for.

The fear of band sets has also allowed to the rise of bulk up sets which can use the switches it forces to get a boost and has the ability to a fitting move against what its facing, with ice spinner hitting dipplin hard and aqua jet turning the tide on revenge killers.

Scarf functions as one of the tier's best revenge killers too, as it shreds jolteon and acts as a great pivot with flip turn.
 
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It’s been a while since I’ve (or anyone has) done post on just the meta in general, I haven't partly because I didn’t have a pulse on the meta until like last week, and partly because I didn’t need to help myself lose some tour games by showing my hand.

Two-ish months ago, the meta revolved around Floatzel, Mowtom, and Charizard. I think we’re past the point where those three are unstoppable forces in the meta, mostly because that job is done with lanturn and a mowtom switch-in.

One of the more notable developments is that people have stated running special attackers that aren’t electric or fire. This includes mons like Whimsicott, Spiritomb, Oricorio, and to a lesser extent, Mismagius and Clawitzer (and Mesprit but like who isn’t running physdef pivot?). We still have a very small pool to choose from, but it’s nice that they aren’t only electrics and Charizard.

I don't think the Oricorios got enough usage in ZUWC where I feel comfortable calling them broken. I mean, they're Oricorio, we know what they do. But checks to Oricorio, like Lanturn, Regirock, and Spiritomb, are central in this meta and on basically every team. On top of that, Encore is common enough to make QD not free in MU's with a Mesp, Sableye (underrated), or Whimsicott.

I think the most broken mon in the meta is Spiritomb. It's very difficult to OHKO, and when you give it a free turn, it's now at +2 and has trick room up and I need to play 'how many sacks does it take to get out of this'. The dark type is kinda nuts in this meta, since the only mons that can take on a dark move (Hqwil, viriz, tomb lol, poliwrath, and ig brute bonnet but he's rare so im ignoring him) either have no SpD or are weak to Psyshock. Other checks do exist, but like, there are only so many Glastriers one can run, or you're in a spot where you have to trade your tera with a mon who will not be clicking tera. On the flipside, I dont know if counterplay to tomb just hasn't been found yet and I'm salty about losing to it still, or if we actually don't have any.

As for the electrics, I really like their dynamic in the tier. Since they all beat Sandslash and his 55 base spdef, you have to use a grass or other electric type to wall them, which I usually do. I shower thought'd that a table would be cool, so:
MonChecks/Beats:Checked By:
:Jolteon: Jolteon:Lanturn: (when subcm):Magneton: :Rotom-mow: (w/o sub up) :vikavolt: (shaky vs tera fairy subcm)
:Lanturn: Lanturn:Magneton: :Jolteon: (non subcm):Rotom-mow: :Vikavolt:
:vikavolt: Vikavolt:Lanturn: :Rotom-mow::Magneton: :Jolteon: (no tera)
:Magneton: Magneton:Jolteon: :Vikavolt: :rotom-mow: (kinda for all 3):Lanturn: (when not tera blast)
:Rotom-mow: Mowtom:Lanturn: :Jolteon::Vikavolt: :Magneton:

Jolteon kinda has the worst matchups into other electric types, but considering substitute and tera, it can flip most of them barring Magneton, and has better matchups vs Floatzel, zard, and Virizion. On the flipside, Magneton is the best into other electrics on paper due to resisting every move one of these mons can throw at you, but it's also the easiest to chip down through a game and consistently gets value running raw tera blast of all things (and needs it for this chart lol). I also think that Lanturn has more room for set diversity. After P2 became a scary setup mon, I definitely think making Lanturn one is a good idea. Curse + 2 STABS is a very funny idea on paper, but I really wanted to call out Liquidation on Lanturn, as it breaks Jolteon's sub and can be used to wall Oricorio-Baile slightly better. I tried to see if Vikavolt can afford to run more/different coverage, but you have to drop Thunderbolt, and the best you get is air slash??

Considering that, none of the elecs are broken imo. Jolteon is the best into the meta, and it needs a free turn to get going because it is not living a physical attack from anyone, and even has to watch out for most special attacks. Mowtom is the next most broken, but it almost has to run scarf to not be easily revenged, and if your team is Mowtom weak, it's probably also Vikavolt weak (i will defend this but i have no evidence).

And that's all I wanted to say with the time I have. Our physical attackers are p much the same, except Floatzel is a bit rarer since we run water types now. Please post so I have reading material next time I open forums. Also, psychic type underrated.
 
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