Metagame NP ZU Stage 18: FLOWER - Heat Rock ban #17

[Tuthur]

​

ZUPL put the spotlight on Bellossom, a Pokémon that previously received close to no usage, and since then has risen as a premier late game setup sweeper in the metagame. Its most common set is a bulky Quiver Dance user, using Strength Sap and Giga Drain to maintain itself healthy and get multiple boosts. While it is initally weak, its bulk with the combination of Quiver Dance Special Defense boosts and Strength Sap Attack drops means many Pokémon are totally unable to outdamage its healing.

Bellossom can easily find setup opportunities into common staples of the tier such as Sandslash, Lanturn, and even premier special wall Snorlax. Its Poison-type coverage also allows it to OHKO Whimsicott, the premier anti-setup threat in the metagame. This Poison-type coverage, turning STAB with Tera, allows Bellossom to defeat would be checks. On the one hand, Acid Spray can overpower set-up sweepers that would try to boost alongside Bellossom such as Swords Dance Hisuian Sneasel and Calm Mind Jolteon. On the other hand, Sludge Bomb is immediatly stronger, OHKOing Whimsicott without Tera and being able to 1v1 Haze Articuno thanks to the poison.

However, there is defined counterplay to Bellossom. Oricorio is a near perfect counter, thanks to its Dancer ability, preventing Bellossom boosting past it; even if it needs to be careful around Sludge Bomb. With Psyshock, Farigiraf and Mesprit can be great answers to Bellossom as it has no way of reducing its power and turns weak to Psychic-type after Tera; Farigiraf's Sap Sipper ability also makes it impossible for Bellossom to recover any HP. Bellossom is also extremely slow; common Trick users such as Hisuian Sneasel, Whimsicott, and Rotom-Mow are able to outspeed a boosted Bellossom and turn it completely unusable. Nicher options, such as Malamar and Primeape, thanks to their respective abilities, can take advantage of Acid Spray and Strength Sap stat drop to overpower Bellossom.

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in ZU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played ZU before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact me, sleid, or a member of staff.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2920. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 4. The suspect test will go on for about 14 days, lasting until <t:1758513540:F>.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the ZU council. Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

Avoid posting one-liners or posts that do not contribute to any discussion. They will be deleted.

 

[zause]

I'm writing this post with the initial thought that Bellossom is balanced. Its poor mono-grass typing makes it a tera hog from the get-go and we have plenty of anti-setup mons like Mesprit (Encore or Trick), Sableye, Sneasel-Hisui, Beartic, Victreebel, Charizard, Crocalor, and Mismagius, all of which can switch in perfectly safely to Bellossom. Additionally, Bellossom is weak and slow prior to setting up, which gives the opponent time to react (similar to what makes Spiritomb balanced for example). Additionally, new mons that have positive niche interactions vs Bellossom (and Ori-F) like Primeape, Malamar and Swalot have been popping up and are good are their respective archetypes (Spikes, Court Change Webs and Swalot fits on a bunch of stuff and has some solid niches over Muk especially in the setup department). Court Change Webs aren't a joke btw they were all over the ladder last suspect with success.

However, I also wanted to research how Bellossom went from not seeing any use in any tournaments and being C+ on the ZeroUsed VR straight to being... suspected. Bellossom entered ZUPL as a very niche if not unviable pick. In week one of ZUPL it had two uses by the Pekos, winning both in the worst throw in the whole tour and Fish versus Baitwiz which was a lopsided game on paper yet still was very close as Regirock got extremely unlucky and Baitwiz missed a winpath in which he couldve gone into his Ori and copied the boosts in their tracks. However, in fairness to Bellossom, the Pekos had already won the week and were likely just reusing to conserve other teams. The first win was a mockery and the second win was a bit lucky, but the niche setup sweeper was nonetheless 2-0 after the first week of ZUPL, being tera'd in both its games. After seeing Bellossom go 2-0 in the first week, other teams decided to try a new strategy, Grassy Seed Bellossom. This worked with varying success, as Career Ended brought a fat team with Articuno that walled and overwhelmed Bellossom, which once again tera'd. However, Bellossom would get its first runaway victory of the whole tour in Chaos23333 vs LettuceLeaf, clutching an endgame while dodging full paras. Additionally, the Pekos used Bellossom on a balance once again, this time losing in a tight game where OLK made an excellent play to switch into his SD Zard t15 on the tera and win. So week two wasn't strong for Bellossom, but it did get a good sweep. In its first 5 appearances, Bellossom tera'd every time and swept once, with a 3-2 overall record. I think this is very underwhelming, particularly in SV. It is worth noting I brought Charm Lilligant (and tera'd it too LOL) which is similar. However, week 3 was Bellossom's breakout. It had 7 uses, and 5 wins. yo cho won in a game where it got frozen and did nothing upon unthawing, and it marked the first game in which Bellossom did not tera. THE_CHUNGLER won a game with Bellossom in which it got stonewalled by Tera Poison Lurantis and did not click an attacking move, marking its third fake win and second game without terastilizing. JJ09LIE then won vs Diego in a game where Bellossom put in a solid performance, clicking Giga Drain a few times at the end of the game with no setup to secure the win. Bellossom would have its first mirror match of the tour, not doing much on either side. It then had its second mirror match, and got its second sweep in its first appearance with Acid Spray, finishing an endgame and beating the opposing Bello due to the new tech. Bellossom now had 6 wins out of 8 games, or a 75% winning percentage (in non mirrors), despite being very unimpressive in its games. The Acid Spray set would then get used in w4, sweeping a seriously underprepared team. This was Bellossom's only use in week 4. In week 5, Bellossom would get another 7 uses. It saw a loss vs Trick Room, and a win vs a burned Articuno, which I believe to be the turn that convinced people it was suspect worthy. While this is ludicrous on paper, it makes sense because Haze is a shitty way for dealing with Strength Sap and the burn means that Articuno's lower PP on Roost sticks out like a sore thumb. Bellossom then had its third mirror match, doing nothing on either side, followed by another win in which it didnt do anything more than cheer from the sidelines. It suffered an unlucky loss to the hands of Dead By Daylight. Didn't do much in this game either. I'm not gonna review week 6 (usage stats aren't up), but I think that Bellossom has an unusually high winrate that should drop down over time and is nothing more than a matchup fish tera hog sweeper that can cop a win against a bad team that lacks up anti-setup. Otherwise it tends to not do much and get carried by its teammates. It's 71% clean win rate over 14 non mirrored uses is not reflected by its impact game-to-game. I have yet to face it in ZUPL, and I think that is in part because my teams consistently have good counterplay to it and I generally don't find it hard to fit.

tldr; terahog mu fish that feeds off teams missing one of the like 10 setup deterrents we have and has a boosted winrate and this feels like ori-f suspect all over again

ban Sun in SS

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

I will start laddering today and do my best to attain reqs. From a grassroot player's point of view i'm also on the DNB side for now.

Bellossom is a scary Quiver Dance + Strength Sap sweeper, but just like previous suspectees, it loathes getting knocked, although maybe not as much as fellow QD user Oricorio. A lot of the counterplay against Oricorio-F works well against Bellossom, with Assault Vest users (especially Eelektross), Snorlax with Belly Drum, and strong physical moves there to stop a potential QD sweep. Charizard can tech Dragon Tail and thus be an almost surefire Bellossom counter (I've never seen Tera Fairy Bello so unless that's a thing, zard is a great stop). Bellossom is slow, hard to get going, and can be crippled even at +1 because ZU still has options such as both forms of Sneasel, Beartic with hail support, Scarf Rotom/Mesprit which can trick, and so on.

I'll be posting my full thoughts once I get reqs but I'm do not ban for now

 

[Dead by Daylight]

This is probably the second ever suspect I will vote Ban on.

Bellossom is a scary Quiver Dance + Strength Sap sweeper, but just like previous suspectees, it loathes getting knocked, although maybe not as much as fellow QD user Oricorio.

I wouldn't say it "loathes" getting its Boots knocked. Bellossom can switch in easily especially with Tera Poison even if it gets knocked initially. The Oricorio comparison here is understated as well - considering the lack of removal outside of Sandslash and Hitmontop, a knocked Oricorio has essentially no late-game value outside of a sacrifice since it gets half its health cleaved off instantly, while a knocked Bellossom can sweep anyways.

This is also discounting the presence of Bellossom on Grassy Terrain teams with Grassy Seed, where it takes almost nothing from Knock anyways. We saw it be used thrice in ZUPL (where, coincidentally, both games without a hard counter featured it sweeping - Django vs. Beavs and Chaos23333 vs. Lettuce), and I believe it's a decent shout for a Grassy Terrain abuser compared to Oricorio.

A lot of the counterplay against Oricorio-F works well against Bellossom, with Assault Vest users (especially Eelektross), Snorlax with Belly Drum, and strong physical moves there to stop a potential QD sweep. Charizard can tech Dragon Tail and thus be an almost surefire Bellossom counter (I've never seen Tera Fairy Bello so unless that's a thing, zard is a great stop). Bellossom is slow, hard to get going, and can be crippled even at +1 because ZU still has options such as both forms of Sneasel, Beartic with hail support, Scarf Rotom/Mesprit which can trick, and so on.

Its poor mono-grass typing makes it a tera hog from the get-go and we have plenty of anti-setup mons like Mesprit (Encore or Trick), Sableye, Sneasel-Hisui, Beartic, Victreebel, Charizard, Crocalor, and Mismagius, all of which can switch in perfectly safely to Bellossom.

AV users in this tier consist of Eelektross and Muk. Eelektross gets chipped over time and loses eventually to a plain attack, while AV Muk loses 1v1 against Tera Poison Bellossom anyways. Neither of these really work.

BD Lax is a set that I personally have never seen and don't consider to be that great, especially seeing as Lax is your catch-all special check to Jolteon, but perhaps it has merit on HO. Tera Poison Sludge Bomb should 1v1 this, though.

Charizard could tech Dragon Tail or Roar, sure, but then you lose out on chipping checks like Regirock and Lanturn at all with Wisp or Scorching Sands to deal with one mon.

Beartic and Hail as a whole deal with a Grass-type well, sure. Same scenario with Articuno. Sneasel also loses to Tera Poison unless it is Choice Band + Switcheroo, which to be fair it certainly can be. Scarf Mowtom and Mesprit locked into a move already are prime targets for Bellossom to set up past +2, where it outspeeds both and can no longer be Tricked (as both drop with minor chip). Encore Mesprit has more of a chance, but it cannot switch in and Encore Bellossom into QD (meaning it trades a ton of its health to temporarily stop it). Sableye checks it, at least until it gets Giga Drained and forced to endlessly spam Recover. Oricorio is honestly a great switch-in, as it copies the boosts with Dancer.

Its poor mono-grass typing makes it a tera hog from the get-go and we have plenty of anti-setup mons like Mesprit (Encore or Trick), Sableye, Sneasel-Hisui, Beartic, Victreebel, Charizard, Crocalor, and Mismagius, all of which can switch in perfectly safely to Bellossom.

Being a tera hog doesn't matter when it can take games over on the spot when it has said Tera available. Oricorio couldn't do that - its checks largely remained the same when it Tera'd. That's not the case for Bellossom.


None of this really answers the benefit behind banning Bellossom, either - getting uninteractive setup sweepers that mandate specific checks out of the tier is a net positive. I didn't (and still don't) think this applies to Oricorio because its checks are (mostly) able to check it even with Tera, but it certainly does apply to Bellossom. I'd support getting it out of this tier.

 

[plznostep]

I fricking hate Bellossom

Hello everyone. Before we continue, please appreciate my Bellossom drawing. I want the Artist badge on Smogon by the end of the month or this entire site is corrupt. Thank you.

Anyways, I got reqs. I wanted to win them with Grassy Terrain but its not consistent enough on ladder to work considering you fully commit to using Terrain whereas in other cheese styles such as Snow, you use a single core and build around it. So I just used my old Snow team and qualified that way.

So things i've learned from Bellossom; if you get the right matchup, congratulations, you basically win on the spot. From laddering with it using Grassy Seed which i will show the team here; there is basically nothing the opponent can do in some matchups, which is usually teams relying solely on Snorlax for their blanket special check or phazers that are not Muk. I will say though that Bellossom does heavily rely on Tera Poison to steal games. I don't think this is too big on an issue since its something you build with in mind when using Bellossom, and when using Bellossom, you always are building around it rather than slapping it onto a team due to this factor.

If the opponent has Trick/Encore users, they do have a chance, but I think the main concern is that Bellossom shouldn't be used as a Quiver Dance early game. It is used late game, usually alongside tera, when most of its checks are crippled or there is simply nothing left to stop it. Also on Psyshock, Bellossom is really physically bulky with Grassy Seed, so it's not an amazing way to bank on beating Bellossom even after Terastallization. The Ground-type weakness also doesn't come up much. Bellossom is strongest on Grassy Terrain in my opinion, and that already cuts Earthquake damage and most of them are also afraid of Bellossom anyways.

As for other counterplay, I did not find Malamar to be concerning at all. It alongside Bellossom, is a sweeper who takes a little bit to get running which usually ends up with Bellossom winning the interaction. Sap Sipper Pokemon do work, but I also think that this is quite specific, as Farigiraf running Sap Sipper can really hurt a team's matchups into Prankster Encore Pokemon such as Sableye and Whimsicott, which is VERY important for Grassy Terrain, where offensive Farigiraf is seen. As for defensive, it also works, but it's not a very common Pokemon. The best counterplay I have seen so far is Haze Weezing and Muk. If they run Toxic Spikes however, they usually don't have Haze so they don't beat Bellossom anymore.

I do think there are answers for Bellossom. But I think this Pokemon ultimately is not healthy for builder. Most blanket special checks/set up prevention is bypassed by Bellossom or has a caveat towards it.
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getting uninteractive setup sweepers that mandate specific checks out of the tier is a net positive​

I really do agree with this point made. Bellossom is not a very splashable Pokemon due to its reliance on Terastallization. It's a low risk ban with a good payoff in my personal opinion due to how Bellossom's hard counters are much more specific then most other setup sweepers available in the tier.​

 

[Dutchum]

I got reqs for the Bellossom suspect test, and interestingly, I didn’t encounter a single Bellossom during my entire run. This already says a lot about its real presence in the metagame: despite being the focus of the suspect, it is far from a dominant force on ladder.


During my previous run for the Floatzel suspect test, I also never had any issues dealing with Bellossom. In fact, compared to Floatzel, Bellossom feels much easier to handle because there are plenty of viable and already common counters in the metagame. Pokémon such as Weezing and Snorlax can reliably answer it, while Floatzel in contrast forced players to use very specific and often unviable walls just to keep it in check. This is, in my opinion, the biggest difference between the two suspects.


Of course, I understand why Bellossom can look scary. Its natural bulk, access to Strength Sap, and the ability to boost with Quiver Dance can make it difficult to kill once it sets up. The Poison-type coverage with Tera is also a real threat to some of its usual answers. But unlike other broken setup sweepers we’ve seen in the past, Bellossom has enough reliable counterplay that fits naturally on many teams.

The team I used is a rather standard fat build without any big surprises. It’s very solid and difficult to break, and I had a pretty smooth run with it since it has the tools to win any matchup (my only loss came from a lot of hax). It’s actually the same team I used for the Floatzel suspect test, except I replaced Floatzel with Jolteon. Both Weezing and Snorlax serve as solid answers to Bellossom, as it has no way of breaking through them unless they are heavily weakened. You can check out the team here if you want to use it: https://pokepast.es/07bf1da766ff34b0


For these reasons, I do not think Bellossom is problematic for the current metagame, and I will vote DO NOT BAN.

 

[lettuce]

Told myself I'd post when I got reqs, and I did, so here are my thoughts on Bello. Right now, I'm DNB, but this could be changed.

my run says that i might just actually be bad

i promise you the last ~100 coil took me 80% of the time. I was hovering 74-77 GXE for a couple of hours and I would have lost the last game because i was frozen twice, but thankfully twave is 90% accurate.

If you ran into the idiot who was running scarf claw + scarf basculin on webs, that was me. Ladder sets can't be problematic if you are the problem.

Yes, I seriously expected running to be consistent. It was a lot more playable than you'd expect, but trust me - you don't need the paste. No, Snorlax wasn't an autolose. OTR Eggy-a was. No, the gameplan of 'chip down every special wall until basculin cleans' is not consistent, I somehow lost to a Charizard + Lanturn team consistently. 6/10 would use again but I'd have to fix it.

My bello check was make it tera poison and click volt switch into psyfangs basc. It worked until MethMaster started to tera his Malamar and i kept forgetting to vikavolt the bello. Para with magneton was the backup strat and it wasnt awful but like, what do i do after magneton dies if Bello's still a grass type? Crit? (I think we went 2-2 against each other or smth)

So yeah. I'm bad. But I still think this took way longer than it needed to.

Bello is slow, needs a lot of turns to set up, has a (somewhat) exploitable recovery, and is tera reliant against any team with gunk shot (should be most of them). Bello is at its best as the last mon on a team once the opposing Mesprits, Charizards, and other checks are gone or weakened. It's able to be successful since although it has 5 weaknesses, they don't matter that much. You will be pairing it with a fire check, flying is only common on zard, ice isn't real, and bug and poison are negated by Tera Poison.

As far as counterplay goes, it's just as weak to anti-setup as every other setup sweeper. If you switch into a Bello as it gets to +1, your check still outspeeds it, and some mons will still outspeed at at +2.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it mandates dedicated counterplay. I mean, my check during reqs was to make it tera and volt into PsyFangs Basculin, so I'm probably missing something, but still. It was consistent as long as I could force the tera.

I think part of the reason that stuff like Liquid Ooze and Sap Sipper is seeing play/mentions is because Bello's moveset is so exploitable that you can tech for it. Grass/Poison is hardwalled by Poison, which is probably the best tera type in the tier, and Steel, which is probably a tera type in the tier. If it doesn't have a defense boost from grassy seed, it loses to Tera Poison Regirock. Now, does that mean its not broken only because it runs exploitable moves? I don't know.

It's like a better Oricorio: if it gets the matchup it's amazing, and when you don't it's not going to sweep. I think that Bello is more consistent and carries less of a surprise factor than Oricorio since it has a clear best tera, and its better at getting around its checks because of strength sap. I don't think its so much better than Oricorio that I want it banned.

And I did wanna comment on the Me v. Chaos game, since I don't think it's a clear-cut ban bello moment. For the Bello to win that game, I had to not realize I could Hwish the Glastrier (would have had to sack lax but it was maybe possible), lose the speed tie to not have my Heasel in as bello enters, and for Bello to not get full para'd (even though I got lucky getting it para'd on like the first bslam). The odds were in the Chaos's favor especially after the sneasel speed tie win, but I had outs even though I built that squad pre-bello. If I was tera poison on Lax or if they weren't G-terrain, that would've helped too, even though Lax is a somewhat shaky bello check since it needs to get the para and outboost ssap.

Overall I'm still DNB. I don't feel like the points I made were ironclad or that solid, but outside of the Articuno game, I don't think it's done anything too broken and I agree with zause's post. I feel like I can still be convinced otherwise, or maybe I'll wake up and change my mind one day.

 

[MethMaster4546]

Ladder being spammed with this little shit was the worst thing ever if i wasnt facing bello it was sum crocalor over prepped bs. ANYWAYS honestly i was a firm dnb before getting reqs but after i hate this mon with a passion even using it makes me mad just seeing how easy it is to cheese and force out tera. every game being played against bello has to be played like the mon is hitler because if it gets a turn with no phazers it wins on the spot and very rarely does it not. priority isnt enough to handle this mon pretty much ever. with giga and strength sap its always close to full at the very least and its decent bulk lets it spam its 16 pp full hp recovery move until the opposing mon is setup fodder. However it is still very slow and mono grass is pretty garbage typing offensively. however the thing that pushes it over the edge is tera, tera poison boosted sludge bombs with giga is impossible to take besides a spdef mag, or use my personal perfered move acid spray. Acid spray after tera becomes a 60 bp move which now melts the one (bad) unaware mon or qd mirror matches with the -2 spdef drop. its not impossible to play around on paper but none of it works. the best solution i found was tera poison or steel contrary/defiant mon to eventually 0hko it if you dont die first. and its worst crime is how it makes the other player go about the game. most skilled players i saw with bello basically treated it as a 5v6 until only bello was left then with phazing being useless it would boost up and just reverse sweep (none of our hazers 1v1 it after tera poison either) this was a consistent thing i did and had happen to me and to me now i see how even if this thing isnt pressuring in the builder at the end of the day it rewards uncompetitive plays giving a free out to whoever loads it up you dont have to think about positioning all too much you dont have to make crazy predicts you just click funny boosting moves and heal

TL:DR: strength sap is broken flips every check for other quiver dancers and tera is a stupid mechanic that breaks more pokemon then it helps ban it please

Bellossom feels much easier to handle because there are plenty of viable and already common counters in the metagame. Pokémon such as Weezing and Snorlax can reliably answer it,

also whos gonna tell em folks bello loves setting up on lax and weezing does nothing back to it

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

...whew. I finally got reqs. This was an incredibly painful experience.

I used an edit of Dutchum's team, but it's a more offensive variant and got 28-2 after like 5-6 attempts lol. It features Tera Ice Hitmontop and Trevenant, pokemon i honestly feel comfortable using. https://pokepast.es/c5a2e0a5998affa7

On to Bello: it is a solid do not ban for me. Honestly, I don't like using Bello myself, and I only lost to it once or twice I believe, i kept losing to other threats because of me sucking at the game, as well as bad RNG, but what's done is done.

Bellossom requires way too many turns to set up, which decent opponents can exploit. Weezing with Haze and Switcheroo Hsneasel are new innovations that showed up on the ladder, and I'm happy Bellossom and Grassy Seed teams forced creative counterplay. You can sap Snorlax all you want but body slam will eventually process a full para (did not have much luck with bdrum lax sadly, i experimented a lot during this suspect. Also Dead by Daylight tera poison+sbomb max hp/max def bello can't OHKO 75% lax at +2 and gets destroyed by +5 body slam).

I did run into Tera Fairy Bellossom at one point with Moonblast to stop Dragon Tail. This ties into its next issue however, it feels much more predictable than fellow QD user Oricorio-F, which I also voted DNB for. Besides Tera Poison and Fairy, I haven't seen it tech other teras. Perhaps it has to do with Bellossom still not outspeeding important parts of the meta at +1, otherwise you could. for example, tech Tera Ground for HSneasel, which can otherwise taunt you or screw you over with a choice item.

If you run Thwackey and Bello on the same team, you will need a really solid plan around Charizard and snow. Even more if you also stack Oricorio with Grassy Seed and their Zard techs some Dragon Tail / Ancient Power stuff. Sableye also sees increased usage as a result of its Prankster Encore and Taunt being able to lead well against hazard users and slowly kill Bello and Oricorio locked into QD.

So yeah dnb. Keep an offensive tempo and it will never get a chance.

 

[Joshua 12343]

I got reqs and I say: BAN This dumb shit
Classic case of Tera roulette, guess the wrong and just forfeit. It's also just, unhealthy? You shouldn't need an Articuno (which doesn't even always work) to stop this. Also requiring a sun stone creates an uneven playing field.
Side note: How much did big Ori pay you to suspect this instead?

 

[PlayaBeavs]

...whew. I finally got reqs. This was an incredibly painful experience.

I used an edit of Dutchum's team, but it's a more offensive variant and got 28-2 after like 5-6 attempts lol. It features Tera Ice Hitmontop and Trevenant, pokemon i honestly feel comfortable using. https://pokepast.es/c5a2e0a5998affa7

On to Bello: it is a solid do not ban for me. Honestly, I don't like using Bello myself, and I only lost to it once or twice I believe, i kept losing to other threats because of me sucking at the game, as well as bad RNG, but what's done is done.

Bellossom requires way too many turns to set up, which decent opponents can exploit. Weezing with Haze and Switcheroo Hsneasel are new innovations that showed up on the ladder, and I'm happy Bellossom and Grassy Seed teams forced creative counterplay. You can sap Snorlax all you want but body slam will eventually process a full para (did not have much luck with bdrum lax sadly, i experimented a lot during this suspect. Also Dead by Daylight tera poison+sbomb max hp/max def bello can't OHKO 75% lax at +2 and gets destroyed by +5 body slam).

I did run into Tera Fairy Bellossom at one point with Moonblast to stop Dragon Tail. This ties into its next issue however, it feels much more predictable than fellow QD user Oricorio-F, which I also voted DNB for. Besides Tera Poison and Fairy, I haven't seen it tech other teras. Perhaps it has to do with Bellossom still not outspeeding important parts of the meta at +1, otherwise you could. for example, tech Tera Ground for HSneasel, which can otherwise taunt you or screw you over with a choice item.

If you run Thwackey and Bello on the same team, you will need a really solid plan around Charizard and snow. Even more if you also stack Oricorio with Grassy Seed and their Zard techs some Dragon Tail / Ancient Power stuff. Sableye also sees increased usage as a result of its Prankster Encore and Taunt being able to lead well against hazard users and slowly kill Bello and Oricorio locked into QD.

So yeah dnb. Keep an offensive tempo and it will never get a chance.

how fast are we making these weezings, feel like acid spray wins vs haze weezing if bello is faster. Not sure though.

Switcheroo/Trick especially from Hsneasel seems a bit telegraphed, why else would it come in vs a bello. But it is a good emergency option and does work sometimes. You only get 1 shot to get it off though.


Im probably going to be voting ban, there is counterplay to bellossom and mons that can shut it down completely but for the overall health of the tier I wouldnt mind seeing it banned.

maybe ill write more later, im lazy now

Edit: changed my mind, DNB

 

[Tuthur]

Voting is open https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/148
zause
Pokemaniac95
Lafell
Drud
Landon
Joshua 12343
Tizio
I'm Tapu Bulu
PlayaBeavs
OranBerryBlissey10
MethMaster4546
lettuce
Dutchum
plznostep

 

[sleid]

As some of you may have already noticed... Bellossom meets the 50%+1 requirement, therefore Bellossom is now banned from SV ZU. If you qualify for TC, you can DM me, Tuthur, or an UM leader.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

Floatzel needs to be re-tested imo, although maybe not right now. I maintain that this thing was never broken, and the Bellossom ban partially rubs off it. Floatzel is basically a better Basculin, but that's kind of it. There are far too many good grasses in the tier for this pokemon to be broken. Speed control over Zard and Cryogonal, priority, and even tying with Sneasel is really healthy for the meta.

OTR Spiritomb needs two turns to set up, but it tends to get them way too easily from my experience, and the fourth move is basically a *guess*. I'd probably vote DNB but I believe this is by far the best pokemon in the tier and I could see the reasoning for a possible suspect test. It does a lot to stop cheesy teams, though.

yeah my reasonings from the last suspect stand... these guys just aren't it. I would love to see more creativity on Abomasnow in particular to enable Beartic, such as Swords Dance, SubSeed, or even another item besides boots on the standard set, with Life Orb and Choice Specs coming to mind. Besides, Beartic needs the speed boost way more than the Veil defense boost, especially with snow already providing it a +1 def and a lot of leverage to use tera ghost or fighting. Overall though they share the same weaknesses and knock off really screws them up. DNB

 

[lettuce]

Floatzel needs to be re-tested imo, although maybe not right now. I maintain that this thing was never broken, and the Bellossom ban partially rubs off it. Floatzel is basically a better Basculin, but that's kind of it. There are far too many good grasses in the tier for this pokemon to be broken. Speed control over Zard and Cryogonal, priority, and even tying with Sneasel is really healthy for the meta.

I disagree. I’m really happy with Basculin, since it can’t click Tera and 2-shot your water resist with water moves. On top of that, you can’t get free switches in on a Will-o-wisp with Basc like you could with Floatzel. And Basculin does all the same things Floatzel does but worse - it’s forced into scarf but it outspeeds zard and heasel and doesn’t force a 50/50 speed tie, which I think is healthier than games being decided on a coin flip. I think that Floatzel’s kit was a bit overtuned and I’m really happy with Basculin allowing for more counterplay.

Other than that, I think I’d want to see the meta settle before another suspect test. Spiritomb feels like it has fallen off a bit and Beartic is more wallable than Bello, and with October drops around the corner we’ll have some new toys too (HOPEFULLY).

 

[Tuthur]

Tier Shifts happened;
+
-

 

[Tuthur]

Council voted on Heat Rock vs Venusaur vs no actions. Reasoning between Venusaur or Heat Rock is whether Sun as an archetype was problematic even without Venusaur as per the tiering policy.

/	bloodace	diegoyuhhi	Drud	fish anemometer	LustfulLice	OranBerryBlissey10	sleid	Tuthur	yo cho
1st	venu	rock	venu	rock	rock	venu	Venusaur	heat rock	HEAT ROCK
2nd	nothing	venu	heat rock	venu	venu	heat rock	Heat Rock	nothing	venusaur
3rd	heat rock	nothing	nothing	nothing	nothing	nothing	no voting	venusaur	noting

5 people prefer to act on Heat Rock over 4 prefering to act on Venusaur.
8 people refer to act on Heat Rock over doing nothing, meaning the 2/3 quickban threshold has been met.

As a result, Heat Rock has been quickbanned from SV ZU. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to please implement.

 

[Welcome to mars]

I think venusaur’s place in the current metagame is a lot more interesting now, as the handicapping of sun sweeping sets brings more attention to other sets that take advantages of venusaur’s other traits apart from chlorophyll and growth. It has a good typing in grass / Poison that gives it useful resistances against the stab moves of pokemon like Jolteon, Paissimian and the up and coming basculin whilst also making it strong offensively against pokemon like abomasnow and Sandslash and an overall good check to Whimiscott and Mow Rotom.

It also has solid options for special grass stab (though it’ll always be using sludge bomb for poison stab…) in the solidly strong no drawbacks energy ball, the potential healing of giga drain and the raw power of leaf storm which can give offensive sets a bit of variety in specifically what approach they want to take to the all out attacker role as well as other useful moves in general such as reliably recovery in synthesis, the coverage of earth power, the sheer utility of knock off, relatively rare access to toxic and the ever humorus leech seed that all allow it to potentially fulfil numerous roles on ZU teams beyond wrecking stuff in the sun with growth boosted attacks (It even has swords dance for some of you mid ladder maniacs out there).

Whilst its stat spread isn’t the best, it can still be enough to get the job done from decent defenses to further establish its potential as a solid defensive check for some common mons in the tier and a pretty good special attack that makes it hit decently even without boosts. Its speed of base 80 may be underwhelming, but it still gets the jump on numerous pokemon such as hitmontop and magneton.

Overall, whilst I’m uncertain how good venusaur will be in this tier following the ban of heat rock, I will be interested in where things go for it in the coming months, as i believe its unique traits can give it some potential.

 

[lettuce]

I felt like posting about removal because I keep putting Sandslash on teams and I want to convince myself that I have other options. Besides that, I kind of wanted to rank the viable removal options for a while now, so here we are.

Spinners ranked:

#1: Sandslash

Strengths: Defensive value, utility | Weaknesses: Offensive pressure, Mesprit, Grass in general
I mean, it's Sandslash. It provides great defensive value by resisting poison and not being fighitng-weak, making it a good counter to Sneasel-H. Its utility options in Helmet chip, hazards, and knock make it able to make progress when Earthquake cannot. It also has just enough flexability with moves like gunk shot and stone edge to pick up a surprise KO. I don't have much more to say about Sandslash, and that's because it's more or less the status quo to removal - everything else will be compared to Sandslash.

#2: Hitmontop

Strengths: Offensive pressure, Tera | Weaknesses: Defensive value, splashability, speed
I think that putting Hitmontop as #2 is completely uncontroversial. Starting in ZUPL, it's the only spinner that was remotely as successful as Sandslash. It has two incredible attacks in Triple Axel and Close Combat, both good at making progress against hazard setters and spinblockers (if you EV right, Triple Axel 2HKOs Spiritomb). On top of that, I think that tera steel bullet punch is one of the more reliable and clickable defensive teras among spinners, since it flips Hitmontop's weaknesses and boosts bullet punch, if you're running it. Compared to Sandslash though, Hitmontop is similarly fast, which does not bode well for an offensive spinner. Top doesn't have the luxury of dipping into SpD or AV to help check faster threats since it needs its HP, Attack, what speed creep you can afford, and Protective Pads so you aren't one-shot by rocky helmet. Between its speed and lack of defensive value by virtue of being mono fighting in a meta with maybe 1 dark, bug, and rock apiece to switch, it's not as easy to splash a Hitmontop onto a team. But, it does its job very well on the teams it finds itself on, which is why it's #2.

#3: Braviary

Strengths: Stats, Roost, offensive pressure, not being solved | Weaknesses: 4mss, typing, defog, not being solved
Braviary is the next most obvious removal option and the most viable defogger in the tier. Since it's the newest addition to the tier, and since I never figured it out before it left, I have no idea what to run on this thing. It wants to fit in all of defog, roost, uturn, CC, BB, and body slam, and while it's somewhat easy to drop CC and Body Slam, that leaves you with a moveset that doesn't exert enough offensive pressure. That's the reason I put not being solved in as a positive and negative - I don't know what I want to do with it, so neither will your opponent. That being said, it does offer a similar role to Hitmontop, and Braviary has actual bulk and recovery in roost to differentiate itself in that role. It's a little bad that Braviary is normal-flying since that gives you ground, ghost, bug, and grass resistances with electric, ice, and weaknesses. It's not a detrimental typing, but you are running boots and are running from a lot of special attackers.

#4: Cryogonal

Strengths: SpDef, Movepool | Weaknesses: being Ice, Physical attacks
With Cryogonal, we are already getting into niche territory. Cryogonal is the type of mon that I keep trying to make work, but cannot ever actually get to work. Its weaknesses come from its typing, which makes sense, as it's a mono-ice mon. On top of that though, it has zero physical bulk and is relying on its stats more than its typing to wall opposing special attackers. However, if you are facing a special attacker that doesn't have psyshock or is a fire type, Cryogonal will be able to haze + recover + freeze (Dry) them do death. Because of how many caveats are in its defensive success, its best on fat/stall teams that can stack multiple special walls.

#5: Drifblim

Strengths: Ghost, Utility | Weaknesses: Stat distribution, flying
Drifblim isn't a mon I've used much, but compared to what's left, it's the last mon I would expect to see in this meta. Its typing is good since it's immune to fighting and resists poison, which are the 2 best types for a physical wall to resist. It also has good utility via Wisp, Twave, and Strength Sap, allowing it to punish things its trying to wall. However, even with maximum physical bulk, I've found it to be a little underwhelming, and how common electric is makes flying a pretty bad defensive typing in my eyes, giving few good resistances in exchange for an electric weakness. Strength Sap is a double-edged sword on Drifblim, because its high HP means it can get stuck recovering like 50/500HP or something against special attackers.

Everything below this is less viable and unproven.

#6: Torkoal

Strengths: Fire typing, burning | Weaknesses: competition, boots-locked, lack of useful resistances
With 140 defense and only 5 less HP than Sandslash, Torkoal is the most physically defensive spinner available. Its 70 SpD isn't bad either. However, 9 times out of 10, Torkoal will be a direct downgrade to Sandslash. They offer the same role and will be running similar sets. While Slash will be running knock and one of spikes and rocks, Torkoal is carrying Lava Plume and just rocks. Additionally, the biggest reason Torkoal doesn't see more usage is because it can't take advantages of the benefits that defensive fire typing offers. Its only useful resistances are Fairy, Fire, and Grass, and there are very few physical attackers with those types in the tier. Unlike Sandslash, who resists gunk shot and offers Helmet chip against physical attackers, Torkoal is neutral to gunk and must run boots or lose 25% to rocks. I have leaned on Torkoal when I wanted a rocker that didn't make me weaker to Whimsicott, which is basically all Torkoal is good for since if it was a good zard check, we would know by now. Torkoal isnt fundamentally bad in my eyes since its archetype is vaguely similar to mesprit, sandslash, and weezing, but it lacks many of the benefits/resistances that make those mons actually good.

#7: Lurantis

Strengths: Recovery, Knock, Bulk + offense | Weaknesses: Venusaur
I would have put this mon at #4 before Venu dropped, because although it struggled into Charizard it at least could click knock, and you should be pairing a grass with a zard switch anyways. However, with Venu around, I don't see much of a reason to use Lurantis, unless you really NEED a basculin switch that doubles as removal. I don't think it's bad and I have had success with Lurantis, but I just cant justify using it with Venusaur around, especially with how underexplored and therefore unpredictable Venu is (even if that doesn't matter much).

#8: Gurdurr/Hitmonchan

Strengths: Fighting, Def (gurrdurr), SpD/Speed (chan), not running protective pads | Weaknesses: outclassed by Hitmontop
I wasn't sure where to put these guys, since they have a less noticeable weakness than Lurantis, but are also mons I find harder to use (and probably haven't used). I opted to rank them below Lurantis since I think they are outclassed harder. They just don't have the raw power of Technician triple axel that Hitmontop has. Their strengths over hItmontop come to not running protective pads, meaning that Hitmonchan is a better AV user and Gurdurr has that eviolite bulk. I would also consider both of them better setup sweepers than top due to chan's speed tier actually outpacing Jolt at +1 and Gurdurr's bulk, but they can't just click triple axel.

#9: Toedscruel

Strengths: Ground, SpD, Spikes | Weaknesses: 4MSS, Poison neutral, PhysDef, lack of recovery, Mycelium Might
I have never found success with Toedscruel. I've been killed by it because my opponent was running max speed earth power before, but thats like scarf clawitzer on webs - why would you run it?? It's got a lot of good utility moves, but its ability means that it's using those moves slowly, and it sometimes feels like it has 100 BST in speed wasted. There are better offensive grass types with earth power like Venu, Arbo, and Shaymin. If Toesds got Synthesis or Strength Sap it would easily be higher on the list, but without that its easy to whittle down, and unless you're running leech seed or pain split (which you drop a STAB, spin, hazards, or knock for), its not recovering any chip back.

#10: Komala/Morpeko/Quaxwell

Strengths: Getting spin | Weaknesses: Using these mons
These are the bottom 3 spinners we have. Of them, I think that there's a world where Komala can pop off, but its recovery is wish, meaning it has real 4MSS if you want Wish, tect, spin, knock, uturn, body slam, or another attack. It's also not impressed me with its bulk. Morpeko has the misfortune of not outspeeding Basculin or Charizard, which makes it a little awkward to run. If you are running it, it's a poor spinner since it would rather use the one free turn it gets to start spiraling out of control with CB aura wheel, rather than to remove some rocks. Finally, Quaxwell is probably the least viable spinner I could see getting legitimate usage, since its a defensive water with recover. Frankly, it's Quaxwell-we stopped using him a year or 2 ago. But I think it offers just enough to be mentioned, and is the line between spinners that are and are not worth considering.