NU Analyses Discussion Thread 2.0

[Machineae]

I don't think there's anything wrong with putting an initial analysis for a new mon with just one common set. We can always add the rest later with additional set analyses and to be honest I think it's really important that we have at least something other than sample sets for new mons, especially important ones like Aggron. For reference, Omastar and Charizard dropped in February and Omastar's analysis didn't get completed until a few days before Gastrodon dropped (which is a big threat to all sets); mostly because there were lots of viable sets. This meant that new players didn't have reasoning behind popular sets until months after it dropped, and almost immediately that analysis became somewhat outdated. Charizard still hasn't been written up, mostly because of different people taking it over at various points but also partly because there were like 5 sets being considered at one point.

I think a good structure going forward would be to upload the sample sets, then upload a version of the analysis with only the main set being thoroughly analysed and the others being sample sets below, then the remaining sets being written up once the overview, checks and counters, etc are already on-site. This also gives us the flexibility of being able to have different people write up the different sets who know more about how they work.

Let me know what your thoughts are on this. I also agree that CB Aggron should be the main set for now.

That makes quite a bit of sense to me. I'll work on writing something up tonight/tomorrow morning and get a thread set up. Aggron certainly has a lot of usable sets but IMO it quickly goes from best set to "you're only running this because YOU like it" real quickly.

Concerning any of the other sets, I don't think RP is good enough because it's like a Rhydon with less opportunities to set up, worse STAB coverage, but better raw power (Rhydon also has SD too so this last point is somewhat moot). I've tested with SubRise and it's only good enough for OO. The only sets that are worth writing up are CB and Lead.

That's exactly what I was thinking. A boosting Aggronn feels like a wasted team slot. It's not terrible but inefficient. CB and Lead are my two front runners.

 

[etern]

Thoughts on Jumpluff getting a revamp? Now that Sceptile is gone, SD Pluff has a chance to shine again and definitely deserves to move from OO to its own separate set. The rest of Jumpluff's analysis is pretty outdated as well, particularly with a lot of mentions towards Sceptile.

 

[Q10jj34eeDnK]

Steel types are mentioned in the Checks and Counters section of a lot of analysis's, and Aggron should be mentioned in them.

This includes:

• Archeops
• Audino
• Aurorus (or is Aggron too specially frail?)
• Kangaskhan
• Jynx
• Scyther
• Swellow

I know that there are more, I only looked through the A tier of the viability rankings and even then I didn't check every single Pokemon in it

 

[Hootie]

A lot of the Pokemon listed don't care about Aggron. Archeops OHKOes with Earth Power, Specs Aurorus does 70% minimum with Hyper Voice and naturally outspeeds, Kangaskhan 2HKOes with Earthquake, and Jynx OHKOes with Focus Blast. Even checking Swellow is shaky because Heat Wave 2HKOes after Stealth Rock. The rest I'll add in a mention. Just wanted to point out that Aggron is very different compared to other Steel-types in what Pokemon it checks and shouldn't be listed with them in most cases.

 

[Ojo46]

Musharna's entry still mentions Quagsire even though he's been moved to OU. So maybe that should be edited to remove mentions of him.

 

[Hootie]

Has been a long time since I posted here, but we've made several changes to analyses currently onsite to make sure they were up to date with the current metagame. Here's a quick rundown of each that was made Jolly was slashed first over Adamant on its offensive set, as outspeeding the likes of Xatu, Modest Mesprit, and other neutral nature base 80 Speed Pokemon is much more important the additional Attack increase from an Adamant nature.

Haunter: SubSplit was moved above Scarf, as Rotom in general is a much better Scarfer, and SubSplit is very threatening for the current balance archetypes running rampant.

Kabutops: Rapid Spin is not very good, so it was removed from the first set and only has a mention in the moves section.

Kangaskhan: Aqua Tail was deslashed, as Earthquake hits more important targets and the benefit of hitting Rhydon much harder is not worth being able to avoid Rocky Helmet/Aftermath damage from Garbodor as well as being slightly less powerful vs Steelix and Regirock.

Lanturn: Bumped the Speed EVs on the first set to 120 (124 for Hidden Power Fire variants) for outspeeding Adamant Aggron, deslashed Leftovers from the first set, making Assault Vest the sole item used, and slashed Hidden Power Grass for hitting Gastrodon and opposing Lanturn.

Lilligant: Miracle Seed doesn't do much so it's deslashed; added Yache Berry to set details because it prevents being revenge killed by the likes of Abomasnow and Piloswine.

Omastar: Slashed Hidden Power Grass before Hidden Power Electric on Shell Smash because hitting Gastrodon and Lanturn is more important than just hitting Mantine.

Pelipper: Removed Mixed Defensive because there is very little incentive to use the set over standard Mantine.

Pinsir: Choice Band was moved below Stealth Rock.

Pyroar: Slashed Taunt, as being able to stop the likes of Mega Audino and Clefairy from crippling Pyroar can come in handy. Also nice for preventing hazards from going up.

Regirock: Reorganized the Checks and Counters section

Rotom: Made Scarf the first set and added some more detail to Checks and Counters

Samurott: Slashed Grass Knot on mixed LO because hitting Gastrodon, Poliwrath, and opposing Samurott is much more important. Also added mentions of Gastrodon over Quagsire in Checks and Counters.

 

[Earth]

I would like to talk about the physical Skuntank set.

So the current is Pursuit / Sucker Punch / Poison Jab / Taunt which is not a bad set, but something is missing out in my opinion. Crunch should be slashed alongside Poison Jab since without it, it gets easily walled by Rocky Helmet Xatu and fails at trapping stuff. Poison Jab is still a good option since it makes Skuntank able to hurt Mega-Audino, and Grass-type Pokemon in general.
Now, without Crunch, it just fails at trapping RH Xatu (it basically roosts until you die as soulgazer stated on discord), but it can also help you not being a set-up fodder for Klinklang, and being able to hit CM sweepers such as Musharna / Mesprit super effectively.
I think that Crunch is mentioned under "Moves", but imo that's still not enough, since it definitely is slash-worthy.

Bolts edit: I slashed this after pjab

 

[DennisEG]

I really support the idea above, as ive spammed Skuntant with Crunch in the NUL. Another reason that crunch is really useful is because chip away damage of its switches such as Rhydon and Garbo. I prolly slashed with taunt.

 

[RegalStar]

Exeggutor's analysis has an "andandweakness" in it.

bolts edit: fixed, thanks

 

[Earth]

Sliggoo should probably get a revamp. Sceptile is mentioned so many times while it's banned, as someone on the NU room stated. Alternatively, you may just wanna delete the Sceptile comments from it.

 

[DennisEG]

i submit above, so sceptile mentions can be remove.

 

[quziel]

Klinklang's Analysis mentions Quagsire multiple times, which is erroneous.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Klinklang's Analysis mentions Quagsire multiple times, which is erroneous.

Fixed, added Gurdurr to C&C

 

[MemeMeme Island]

On Vileplume's Defensive set, Aromatherapy should be a slash in the 4th move.

NU is really tight on clerics at the moment, and I think it's a really good support option, as there are a lot of Pokemon in NU worn down by Toxic. Gastrodon has been gaining usage and Vileplume can get off an Aromatherapy as it forces Gastrodon out. Not having Sleep Powder can kinda suck but Jynx can also provide sleep support.

 

[Evan.]

is this the place where i can appeal to get clear smog slashed ahead of both of the ground stabs on gastro's analysis?

there's no reason to use ground stab at all b/c scald is a more optimal play most of the time unless youre clicking toxic. clear smog is just so much more useful b/c it lets you just dick on bulkier boosters (yea you dont beat resttalk stuff but you dont lose to it either which you normally would) plus it lets you beat musharna w/o having to tox yourself thanks to synchronize the only relevant target is like lanturn but youd want to scald burn that / toxic it anyways since ep probably does like -5 and its just gonna tox you anyways.

i can provide more examples if you want but id hope that common sense would prevail here so that were not running ground stab just b/c thats what they do in other tiers

 

[Punchshroom]

there's no reason to use ground stab at all b/c scald is a more optimal play most of the time unless youre clicking toxic. clear smog is just so much more useful b/c it lets you just dick on bulkier boosters (yea you dont beat resttalk stuff but you dont lose to it either which you normally would) plus it lets you beat musharna w/o having to tox yourself thanks to synchronize the only relevant target is like lanturn but youd want to scald burn that / toxic it anyways since ep probably does like -5 and its just gonna tox you anyways.

The way you say it sounds like you wish for the Ground moves to be deslashed entirely or something.

I'd definitely hesitate to say the Ground moves have no use; they allow Gastrodon to deal with / retaliate in more immediate situations, such as OHKOing Shell Smash Omastar and Barbaracle instead of risk losing on the switch if Gastro is at like 60-70%. Other teams may wish for Gastro to not be SubJynx fodder, do not wish for their Lanturn answer to lose 1v1 to Toxic + Heal Bell, or merely want Gastro to dispatch of hazard setters like Garbo and Oma quicker.

Clear Smog is neat on bulkier teams but more balanced teams may either already have anti-setup answers, want their Gastro to check boosting Waters better, or simply be less fodder or w/e, so I don't know whether Clear Smog should be slashed first or not. However, if I have to suggest something it'd be removing Earthquake; the extra damage against Jynx and Lanturn is not worth trading away the ability to OHKO Omastar and Barbaracle (either after SR damage, LO recoil, or -1 SpD drop), and Earth Power still accomplishes the role of beating down Lanturn and breaking Jynx's Subs.

 

[OjOtter]

Dewott:I think it should have an example for a moveset I don't know if its in NU or not.

 

[Hootie]

On Vileplume's Defensive set, Aromatherapy should be a slash in the 4th move.

NU is really tight on clerics at the moment, and I think it's a really good support option, as there are a lot of Pokemon in NU worn down by Toxic. Gastrodon has been gaining usage and Vileplume can get off an Aromatherapy as it forces Gastrodon out. Not having Sleep Powder can kinda suck but Jynx can also provide sleep support.

A Cleric is hardly necessary on any type of team besides stall and even on those teams, Mega Audino is a much better cleric to use either way, so it's not worth slashing in the 4th slot. If you're using Vileplume with Gastrodon, then you're just better off switching into Toxic users and absorbing Toxic Spikes instead. There's also the fact that balance teams in general appreciate hitting Ferroseed, Skuntank, or having a certain threat crippled more.

is this the place where i can appeal to get clear smog slashed ahead of both of the ground stabs on gastro's analysis?

there's no reason to use ground stab at all b/c scald is a more optimal play most of the time unless youre clicking toxic. clear smog is just so much more useful b/c it lets you just dick on bulkier boosters (yea you dont beat resttalk stuff but you dont lose to it either which you normally would) plus it lets you beat musharna w/o having to tox yourself thanks to synchronize the only relevant target is like lanturn but youd want to scald burn that / toxic it anyways since ep probably does like -5 and its just gonna tox you anyways.

i can provide more examples if you want but id hope that common sense would prevail here so that were not running ground stab just b/c thats what they do in other tiers

Don't agree with this, having immediate damage versus Shell Smashers and Lanturn is more valuable. Like you said with RestTalk boosters you obviously just end up with a stalemate, so it's really not all that useful in that scenario. And how exactly does it beat Musharna with Clear Smog? It just results in the same type of stalemate as Malamar or Mega Audino. For what it's worth, I don't mind adding it in, I just don't agree with slashing it ahead of Ground STAB. I also agree with just deslashing Earthquake as well.

Dewott:I think it should have an example for a moveset I don't know if its in NU or not.

Considering Samurott is in the tier and that Dewott is an NFE, no it should not have a moveset listed anywhere for NU.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Can Magmortor get a slash or a set or something for Choice Specs? It does some crazy stuff like 2HKO MegaDino after rocks and Rhydon with Focus Blast and it isn't even oo. It also doesn't get weakened as much by Life Orb + Stealth Rock giving it slightly better longevity.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Offensive Stealth Rock Steelix should be given a set IMO, or at least an OO mention:

Steelix @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head / Iron Tail
- Earthquake
- Crunch

EVs let you outrun uninvested base 50s, like Mega Audino, Vileplume and Regirock. You could go down to 84 to outrun 0 Speed Rhydon, or 44 to outrun 0 Spe Gastrodon. Iron Head and Iron Tail are both boosted by Sheer Force; choose which depending on whether you prefer accuracy or power. Earthquake is the alternate STAB; even though it doesn't get a Sheer Force boost, its coverage is too good to give up. Crunch hits Rotom, Xatu and Musharna. Rock Slide and Fire Fang are other moves you could run in that slot. You could run Special moves and a Modest nature with Flash Cannon, Earth Power and Dark Pulse, but it will be weaker and aside from 2HKOing Weezing it doesn't accomplish much it couldn't with physical moves.

Still not convinced? Here are some calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 183-216 (51.6 - 61%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 179-213 (49.1 - 58.5%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 322-382 (118.8 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Xatu: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Mega Audino: 335-398 (81.7 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Steelix Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 190-226 (53.9 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 238-281 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

It may seem outclassed by Rhydon, but it has much better defensive typing and the combination of Sheer Force and Life Orb means it can actually hit harder.

 

[Punchshroom]

So I saw this on Altaria's analysis:

16 Speed EVs lets Altaria outrun Jolly Rhydon, allowing it to get off a last-ditch Toxic on Rhydon

16 Spe EV Altaria hits 200, when it only needs 4 Speed EVs to outrun Jolly Rhydon's 196. 16 Spe EVs does outrun Adamant Aggron (199), but you've no business staying in on that anyway.

 

[prof.dragonite]

"The large majority of Trevenant's gimmick potential comes from its Harvest sets, where it is capable of making use of a wide variety of Berries. Custap Berry with Destiny Bond and Endure can be an interesting way to use Trevenant as a Pokemon that can thwart setup sweepers. Custap Berry allows a heavily weakened Trevenant, usually achieved via Endure, to use Destiny Bond before the faster foe can move, and should Harvest activate right after, Trevenant can go for Destiny Bond again. Should Harvest not activate, Trevenant can sneak in an attack, as Destiny Bond remains active until Trevenant's next move, meaning the opponent has to spend two actions not KOing Trevenant between the Custap-boosted Destiny Bond and Trevenant's slower attack. Should Harvest not activate once in two consecutive turns, Trevenant can stall with Endure for a third try." -NU trevenant analysis(OO)

All I wanna say is... Trevenant doesnt get endure. wtf xD

Hootie Edit: it's fixed lol

 

[erisia]

Offensive Stealth Rock Steelix should be given a set IMO, or at least an OO mention:

Steelix @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head / Iron Tail
- Earthquake
- Crunch

EVs let you outrun uninvested base 50s, like Mega Audino, Vileplume and Regirock. You could go down to 84 to outrun 0 Speed Rhydon, or 44 to outrun 0 Spe Gastrodon. Iron Head and Iron Tail are both boosted by Sheer Force; choose which depending on whether you prefer accuracy or power. Earthquake is the alternate STAB; even though it doesn't get a Sheer Force boost, its coverage is too good to give up. Crunch hits Rotom, Xatu and Musharna. Rock Slide and Fire Fang are other moves you could run in that slot. You could run Special moves and a Modest nature with Flash Cannon, Earth Power and Dark Pulse, but it will be weaker and aside from 2HKOing Weezing it doesn't accomplish much it couldn't with physical moves.

Still not convinced? Here are some calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 183-216 (51.6 - 61%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 179-213 (49.1 - 58.5%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 322-382 (118.8 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Xatu: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Mega Audino: 335-398 (81.7 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Steelix Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 190-226 (53.9 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 238-281 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

It may seem outclassed by Rhydon, but it has much better defensive typing and the combination of Sheer Force and Life Orb means it can actually hit harder.

We discussed this set a long time ago (as well as a special variant) and the general consensus was that OO was a fine place for it. Steelix gets extra power but it becomes a lot easier to take down, basically turning it from a stellar tank into an average wallbreaker / decent lure that gets OHKOed by basically any faster special attacker and doesn't have Sturdy to fall back on. The luring capability is useful to some teams but these aren't sets that you'd plonk on a team and expect to do well on their own.

Can Magmortor get a slash or a set or something for Choice Specs? It does some crazy stuff like 2HKO MegaDino after rocks and Rhydon with Focus Blast and it isn't even oo. It also doesn't get weakened as much by Life Orb + Stealth Rock giving it slightly better longevity.

The thing about Choice Specs is that the choice aspect really sells Magmortar's excellent coverage short. The extra increase in power isn't worth the ability for the opponent to predict a move (or come in after a kill) and gain a setup opportunity. Fire isn't a great typing for a Specs user since 4x resists such as Omastar, Barbaracle, and Carracosta can set up on it, and while Thunderbolt nails a lot of responses, it invites other Pokemon to come in afterwards. On the other hand, Life Orb Magmortar doesn't have this prediction dependency and can also make better use of Earthquake (which does heavy damage to Lanturn, Magmortar, and even Hariyama) as well as utility options such as Taunt and Will-O-Wisp to surprise usual checks. The difference in recoil damage is often moot as Choice Specs Magmortar has to switch in more often to be effective, which isn't great with a Stealth Rock weakness.

I was reading the team options for Klinklang the other day and i got a bit confused on the way.
"Team Options
Grass-types such as Lilligant, Shiftry, Cacturne, and Vileplume all make for great teammates, as they threaten Water-types that check Klinklang, such as Gastrodon, Lanturn, and Poliwrath. Fire-types, such as Magmortar and Pyroar, can cover the vulnerability to Steelix Klinklang gains when running Magnet Rise instead of Substitute, they are also helpful to block Will-O-Wisps and threaten Ferroseed and Vileplume, which are much easier to handle with Substitute. Additionally, Cacturne provides Spikes support for Klinklang, making it easier to sweep teams, and a useful Water-type immunity, which can cover the non-Substitute variant's weakness to Scald. Life Orb Samurott is a good partner, as it's able to break past several answers to Klinklang such as Steelix and Weezing. Mesprit, Xatu, and Musharna are also great teammates thanks to their ability to threaten Poliwrath, Weezing, and Garbodor. Mesprit in particular has access to Stealth Rock to support Klinklang, as well as U-turn to help bring it in safely, while also having Healing Wish to bring Klinklang back to full HP and rid it of any status conditions. Hex Rotom is an interesting partner, as it lures in Steelix and Lanturn, weakening them significantly for Klinklang. Scyther is able to switch in and threaten Fighting-types, as well as lure in Pokemon that Klinklang can use as setup bait, such as Mawile and Ferroseed. Scyther also has good synergy with Klinklang because of its immunity to Ground and resistance to Fighting and Klinklang's ability to cover Scyther's Ice-, Rock-, and Flying-type weaknesses. Powerful wallbreakers such as Archeops, Aurorus, and Life Orb Magmortar can weaken teams significantly, paving the way for Klinklang to clean late-game. Garbodor is a great partner, as it switches into Fighting-types relatively well and supports Klinklang with Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Toxic Spikes in particular pairs very well with Klinklang because it wears down threats that prevent a Klinklang sweep such as Gastrodon and Barrier Musharna."


If I am not wrong I think it is the other way around i.e, "gains when running Substitute instead of Magnet Rise"

Got this.

Also as a general update, we updated Quagsire's old analysis to better fit the Gastrodon metagame with some minor changes. We also swapped Iron Tail's and Grass Knot's positions on Kecleon for similar reasons; being able to lure Gastrodon and Quagsire is another good niche the wallbreaker set has over other Normal-types.

 

[quziel]

I apologize if this is speaking above my station, but thoughts on putting a mention of the whirlpool set in Kanga's other options, as it does have a niche, and is very effective at what it does?

 

[Punchshroom]

thanks prof.dragonite for that catch.

I just want to suggest that Defog be unslashed from Shiftry's main set, as I believe physically mixed Shiftry doesn't really make good use of Defog. Since Defog doesn't really fit on Shiftry's other sets, perhaps it can be given a positive OO mention, but specifically alongside a specially mixed set of Leaf Storm / Dark Pulse / Sucker Punch. I'm of the opinion that Defog fits better on specially mixed Shiftry than the current physically mixed for 3 reasons:

- Stronger STAB against the primarily physically bulky hazard setters of the tier
- Doesn't have to worry unduly about Scald burns when switching into / Defogging on bulky Waters
- Invested Dark Pulse slightly makes up for being unable to afford Explosion / Extrasensory when hitting bulky Poison-types such as Garbodor, Weezing, and Vileplume.