Project NU Research Week [Week 7: Gigalith and Indeedee-F]

Unfortunately after monday my week got pretty busy so I did not get to ladder nearly as much as I wanted too. Regardless, I think that through both the bit of laddering I did and through discussions I’ve had with other people, I feel comfortable sharing my opinions about Jellicent.

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:ss/jellicent:


Jellicent @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Recover
- Taunt​

I used two main teams with Jellicent this week, one of them was more a meme team with AV jellicent, and the Other team was the team that used an actually good set. The team had trouble dealing with a few mons in the tier, but overall it was still good enough for me to see jellicent get to do what it does. I chose this specific moveset because I believe that right now, Jellicent’s biggest advantage over other bulky waters is it’s access to taunt. Taunt allows jellicent to take advantage of clerics like sylveon or vaporeon very well by preventing them from doing anything. Taunt also allows jellicent to take advantage of other passive mons. Forcing out these mons allows jellicent to spread status and potentially cripple a switch in. Toxic variants of jellicent can still be taken advantage of by toxicroak, but I felt like toxic is just overall better in the current meta and it allows jellicent to better take advantage of mons like vaporeon, who is currently one of the best mons in the tier. I prefer using scald over hex because it allows jellicent to spread both burns and toxics, which make it even more annoying to use. Recover feels a lot more consistent than strength sap, so I chose to use it. As stated earlier, taunt is the main reason to use jellicent over other bulky waters. I chose to use a colbur berry because it allows jellicent to take a knock off as needed, as well as being able to switch in on a shell smash and at least try to get off a toxic on blastoise before going down.

Thanks to Pokeslice for helping with the team: https://pokepast.es/e7a7e166126c11eb


AV Jelly team (don’t use this): https://pokepast.es/4934a62530f62f7b



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Pros:
  • Amazing check to Entei and Glastrier, taunt allows it to stop both of these mons from setting up, and it sits on both of these mons unless they decide to run crunch
  • Amazing against Salazzle, being able to beat both the common sets and the annoying subtox set. Resisting it’s dual stab as well as access to taunt are both huge.
  • Good defensive typing as well as good overall bulk allow it to switch into a lot of hits, even being able to take non lorb thunderbolts from mons like starmie.
  • Good access to instant recovery in both recover and strength sap, either move is viable and can be changed depending on what you want it to do.
  • Good support movepool, Taunt is the biggest move, but also access to multiple status moves in will-o-wisp and toxic make this pokemon able to run a good variety of sets.

Cons:
  • Biggest drawback is that it’s a bulky water that isn’t able to check shell smash blastoise. It’s typing leaves it vulnerable to dark pulse, and if it’s a sub variant of blastoise it may just get to +6 and win the entire game. I don’t think blastoise is a healthy mon for the tier anyways, but for a slot that has other mons being chosen partially for the ability to check blastoise, this is a significant point that may make people reconsider using jellicent.
  • This mon has pretty heavy 4 moveslot syndrome, deciding between scald or hex, toxic or will-o-wisp, strength sap or recover, it wants all of these moves but has to chose only 3 because taunt is pretty much mandatory, as it is the biggest selling point of this mon as a bulky water imo.
  • This mon wants multiple items but can only have 1. I tried colbur and lefties, and both of these sets felt good, but it makes some matchups more difficult. Some other possibilities are boots to not take hazard chip, or if you really wanted to, you could run itemless jelly to make it a poltergeist switch in. This mon has multiple items it wants, but unfortunately it can only have 1.

Conclusion:
I feel like Jellicent is a very solid mon. It’s biggest problem comes down to not being able to check blastoise, which is a pretty bad problem, but the other problem it has is that it can’t fit all of the moves it wants, which is unfortunate, but not a huge problem. It’s typing, good bulk, access to taunt, and instant recovery give Jellicent a unique niche among the bulky waters available in NU, and it is definitely a mon worth considering in the builder.

Unfortunately I only got 1 replay that I felt showcased Jellicent doing what it does

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1316008916
 
https://prnt.sc/11879r6
Didn't got to play much and when I lost to Focus Sash Hone Claws Iron Tail Sneasel I tilted. I did ladder a bit more for fun but forgot to change the alt but its w/e.

:ss/Jellicent:
Jellicent @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Night Shade
- Scald
- Recover

I really like this pokemon and this was the set I used. It surely holds up all the things it promises on paper and I actually never felt disappointed when checking opposing Glastrier, Entei and while breaking fat cores. Its big 4MSS is kinda whack especially if you need to compress a lot into this pokemon. In case you haven't seen, I made a post about Jellicent in the NP Thread. For Pros & Cons I can only really agree with Xerche here and I hate being repetitive.
 
I messed around on some test alts with a more stally hail build but ended up actually using a manual hail team built by our resident heat maker Catalisador - the only change I made was to change it from double band arctos to Life Orb on Zolt. Through playing with zolt it became very apparent that switching moves was mandatory to making progress with the mon. Didn't get to play as much as I'd hoped but I figured I'd call it anyway because I didn't think I could challenge Turtledoggo's and others' great runs this late in the week, especially with the suspect underway.

1618197044459.png

Pros:

  • BoltBeam coverage is useful, hard to wall and forces prediction from opponent
  • Bolt Beak can be quite powerful and can net neat neutral OHKOs like Copperajah and Escavalier, and neutral 2hkos like Weezing
  • Blizzard is a good move for OHKOing things that eat Bolt Beak like Mudsdale, Flygon, and Rotom-Mow and denting other beak resists.
  • Low Kick and Stomping Tantrum are both useful coverage moves for niche situations where Boltbeam just somehow won't do.
  • Seems to easily overwhelm fatter builds especially since NU doesn't have a common ground/water anymore. Another reason Blizzard can be run over freeze-dry



Cons:
  • Scarf and Band are sort of meh - are easily predicted around, scarf is not that fast for a scarf slot, band lacks powerful ice stab and most teams pack elec immune. This makes using it on hail seem like the more "viable" option.
  • Arctozolt still isn't that fast in hail and is actually outsped by a disturbing amount of choiced mons, +2 smashtoise, max speed jask, and Alolan Sandslash in its own hail which is sad.
  • Bolt Beak has immense BP but is held back by Arctozolt's need to run jolly, and inability to easily use choice band, meaning losing out on KOs.
  • Because it lacks Base power, Icicle Crash is pretty unusable even on Band and forces the use of the Mixed LO Set, which makes zolt really quite frail on the special side. Freeze dry is also usable as shown by other researchers but can miss key OHKOs like Rotom-Mow.
  • Life Orb chip damage really racks up on this mon, and can get it in range of being revenge killed by faster scarfers or priority.
  • Manual Hail is necessary to make this mon a big threat - there are so many other breakers with a similar speed (if not hail) and way more power, despite Zolt's great coverage, and this is somewhat of a drawback to its overall viability.
  • Most teams have both a bulky water and a electric immunity so you can be forced to either waste turns making safe plays, or conversely miss KOs trying to overpredict in those situations.
  • Manual Hail is totally shut down by Trick Room Glastrier builds, which had popped up more since glas shifted in.


Overall Summary - Middling. It wishes it was both faster and stronger, despite having a great moveset, godly STAB combo and very high power STAB move on the electric side. Arctozolt can perform really well but requires the team to be totally built around it to do so, and can be difficult to get the most out of. Still a really fun mon to make use of, looks like Woodstock from Peanuts, and can lay the hurt in the right hands and on the right team!

I didn't have too many replays to share where it did a ton of work but here's a couple-

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1319788792 - Shows the Blizzard KO on Rotom-Mow where freeze dry would not, & shows bolt beak doing underwhelming damage to zonger.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1319740488-fmdj8ffxf1xhvw0t31hwv91zy0wkmnapw - Shows the 2HKO on weez, and the niche utility of stomping tantrum and overwhelming fat
 
With a combination of school and holidays over the past week, I've only played a small sample based around Jellicent, but I actually love the potential it has.

:ss/Jellicent:
​
PROS
  • Taunt. Literally the best move in the game I swear​
  • Consistent, reliable recovery
  • Fantastic Utility options in Wisp/Toxic
  • Good typing and stats to wall mons like Glastrier
I actually seriously enjoyed using Jelli this week. With Taunt, you can shut down any Vaporeons or Glastriers attempting to set up, all while threatening them with Toxic or Wisp's, seriously helping combat two of the main tier menaces at the moment. It also has fantastic longevity when coupled with Recover and/or Strength Sap, meaning it can consistently come in and check what it needs to reliably. Similarly to Vaporeon, it has those bulky water qualities that are to die for, just with an extra Ghost STAB and Fighting immunity. I will genuinely be using this guy on my teams more often

CONS
  • Vaporeon does what it does better
  • EXTREME 4mss
  • Too weak
I had two main problems with Jelli. 1) If I'm using a bulky water, why not use Vaporeon? You're fatter, get wishes, and don't have that annoying Ghost typing, oh and a higher SpA. I think the answer lies in Jelli's utility and speed with Taunt, shutting down Glastrier early, although usually I would lean Vap and 2) when I say there's 4mss, I mean it. I need every combination of Scald, Toxic, Wisp, Hex, Recover, Sap, Shade, Ice Beam, and of course, Taunt. If Jelli could run all of those moves, it's a top tier NU mon. The problem is, you really can't. On top of that, you don't reliably punish switch ins the same way because of your low base 85 SpA stat, making Jelli semi passive at times, or at least abusable.

REPLAY
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1316001094 - A cool replay where Taunt Jelli dominates a team

CONCLUSION
Use it. It has a lot of merit and potential, even with its flaws. I'd argue it's a solid B tier Pokemon atm and I will be using it more as the gen goes on!
 
Congrats to Turtledoggo21 for winning this iteration of Research Week with an ELO of 1482! Well done! Tagging roxiee to add Turt to the HOF

Jellicent seemed to be the popular one this week, and for many, it put in significant work. With a good typing, solid stats, and a fantastic utility movepool, including the coveted Taunt, Jelli is able to reliably shut down tier staples Vaporeon and Glastrier while spreading status. Sadly, it suffers significantly from 4MSS, but it definitely has potential and I expect to use and see more of it!

Arctozolt was a bit of a mixed bag and I think Turt put it best. Some games, it will dominate, especially against slower, fatter teams it feasts on, but against more offensive ones, it will often do nothing, especially with how hard of a time it has getting in. On top of that, you really want the extra power from CB or Life Orb, but the former has a seriously hard time against any team with a Ground-type and the latter hates not running boots, although it can 2HKO Mudsdale. From everyone's posts it does not feel like Zolt will be a staple, but definitely fun and worth a try!

Thank you everyone for participating this week! Week 7 will most likely be after the Glastrier suspect.

roxiee:
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WEEK 7: Gigalith and Indeedee-F

After a LONGGGGGG hiatus, and much to turtledoggo1's delight, it's finally time for the return of NU Research Week! As usually, the first 3 days will be set aside for signups and theorizing, leaving the latter half of the week dedicated to discussion. Discussion is MANDATORY for participation. For this weeks iteration, we have some fun Pokemon to play around with.

:ss/gigalith:

After Flygon left a bunch back, it seemed like Gigalith would finally be in a position to shine thanks to its good defensive typing for the tier and its access to Sand Stream, giving it a distinct niche in the tier. It's also one of the few rockers out there that actually threatens Xatu, one of the go-to hazard blockers in the tier. Is Sand a viable offensive style or is Gigalith better off as a standalone answer to Exploud and Salazzle? That's up to you! Get testing.

:ss/indeedee-f:
​
With the tier truly starting to settle down, talk quickly started to rotate around Indeedee-M and whether it would be a safe option for the tier, especially as it's essentially just a stronger Indeedee, but that raises the question: is this weird pixie thing worth using as is? With access to P Terrain and the new move Expanding Force, Indeedee-f can run over fatter teams, especially if their Psychic resist is down. It also has fantastic coverage to play with and a multitude of fun partners to help it mess up the tier, so get out there and try it!


In order to participate you must do the following:

  • Post here with a fresh RW alt (such as NURW7 Pokeslice or NURW7 Corthius) and the name(s) of the Pokemon you will be using.
  • Use at least one of the Pokemon being researched!
  • Post your experiences with the Pokemon you're using; participate in the discussion!
  • Post logs of this Pokemon in action against other teams - show rather than just tell
  • The winner of the challenge will be the person who has the highest ladder ranking on the Pokemon Showdown NU ladder with their RW alt at the time the challenge ends.
  • Winners will also receive a permanent spot in this thread's Hall of Fame.

[Sprite/Video/Banner/Image/(Not mandatory]
Introduction (Doesn't need to be long)
Set(s)
Discussion(Pros/Cons/Replays/Calculations)
Conclusion
 
Last edited:
NURW7 Torracat
Gigalith, but maybe I'll give Indeedee a try...

edit1:
research week 7.png
Gigalith is kinda ass. Like a cheap Diancie. I only ever find myself using it to setup sand for Sandslash to put in work. Or for Gigalith to tank a hit and get some chip damage on something I need to get chip on (Copperajah with Superpower, other stuff with Rock Blast) or prevent me from getting swept by clicking Toxic.
Indeedee-F can be clean when Dark- and Steel-types are gone, tho! Cute mon!
I might post some more updates later!
 
Last edited:
I'll start with gigalith since there isn't much to be said abt it, and because we're losing it to uu soon.

:ss/Gigalith:​


Pros:
  • Good base atk stat, can do dmg even without investment, similar to mudsdale.
  • Impressive bulk on both the physical side and the special side when you consider the sand boost.
  • Rocker that actually beats xatu (unlike diancie).
  • Good coverage for unexpected kills (HSlam for fairies, BPress for darks/steels)
  • Supports team well via sand boosts and chip, is actually very nice to have against stallier cores
Cons:
  • SLOW
  • Lacks consistent recovery of its own.
After playing sand almost exclusively for around 3 weeks, I have to say, I love sand. Gigalith may not be the best setter due to the lack of consistent recovery options, and the sand chip may be hard to play around with the non-sand core, but if mastered, you can win almost all matchups with good play. As expected, gigalith is only a support player in the sand archetype, with Sandslash being my favorite sweeper, and other slightly worse options like lycanroc available (and BPVeil Helio for anyone evil enough to use that set). There's also the Sturdy rocker lead set, similar to the aggron set I was messing around with a few months ago, but Aggron's access to Metal Burst and Endeavor make it a better user of this set.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1423767478-yw41glje0v0k0tw0ti3hdw64tgz36aupw - A very close loss (i hate dualwingbeat) against an unfavorable matchup from NUL (this was before the week started but I felt it was relevant and it showcases sand very well).

Coclusion:

Gigalith is a very solid C+/B- pokemon in my eyes, not only because it's a very solid defensive pokemon, but because of the support it can provide to teams, sand ones especially. Sand is a very underexplored archetype and I do feel more people should start using it. Enjoy it while it lasts because UU is taking gigalith for sure.


Now we move on to the better of the two, Indeedee-F

:ss/Indeedee-F:
​
Pros:
  • Stops priority
  • Many viable sets, choiced, CM seed sweeper, Extender
  • Good coverage
  • Gets funny 156 power psychic move
  • Gets the single best move in the tier, Healing Wish
  • Good speed tier
Cons:
  • No reliable recovery
This mon is something. The fact that it isn't ranked on the VR is outrageous imo. This mon made me use espeon and actually enjoy it. Psychic terrain is more awkward to build around when compared to Electric Terrain, but it's much more potent. I'll start by talking about NDD alone before moving on to pterrain as a whole. Base 95 SPA is nothing to laugh about, especially when you consider how strong it's main STAB is. There's not much that can switch into EForce / DGleam / SBall. Between trick, aromatherapy, anti priority, healing wish, this mon is probably top 5 support mons rn. Nothing breaks an opponent's heart more than you clicking the big red panic 'healing wish' button and healing ur breaker to full, ask turtledoggo1 .

Now to talk about PTerrain in general. This archetype makes espeon actually viable. Base 130 STAB EForce is terrifying, especially when you consider that zonger, guzzy, drapion can't switch in safely. SBall 2HKO's zonger, DGleam OHKO's guzzy and 2HKO's drap if specs. This mon can also run scarf and still be a monster. Also is a form of psuedo hazard/status control due to it's ability, Magic Bounce. However, Espeon didn't end up doing much in the time I used it. It mostly chipped down the enemy team/removed mons to enable my Seed sweepers to clean up. I found the most success running seedlee and seed Braviary using it's SubBU set to break through unprepared teams. Not many neutral attacks can break through a +1 sdef sub. Hitmonlee acted as just a general cleaner.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1425686713-dy7v0ltykg4ii9hbisaptodl4ee7ss5pw terrain war

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1425724325-kd6ox7qf8z0m8adbqavz8czeilyi337pw lee 6-0

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1425727946-w5ywq31aa0dbrgkd6y7jr1vukfij1ropw strategic sacking

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1423760489-qh2p51zkz56z2absv800ih2oqgziq8fpw G1 from the same set against expulso in NUL, another very close loss, but it showcases pterrain and I thought it was relevant so posted it as well.

Coclusion:

Indeedee-F is absolutely a B- tier mon at the very minimum. I've enjoyed using it a lot, and it's very strong both as an offensive mon and a support one. Now that drago has dropped, it gives me more reason to use this thing outside of PTerrain due to it being the best healing wish user in the tier, and because it stops priority chip to drago. With scarf it can outspeed many of the things it targets, and with specs it can wreak havoc for the unprepared, and still do good damage against more prepared teams. When you consider the many abusers we have for PTerrain, including Lee, Sceptile, Braviary, Espeon, Musharna, Starmie, GCuno, and most recently, Regidrago, I find it impossible not to think this is a good mon.

PEAK:
Somewhere below Cata so it doesn't matter :)

Thx for reading and have a good day
 
Screenshot_20211003-202920_Chrome.jpg

Overall I found this week to be very fun! I enjoyed using the two mons in question and I think they are definitely very under explored picks in the current meta.

:ss/gigalith: :ss/indeedee-f:

Thoughts prior to using them:

I already knew sand was a good and viable playstyle, though Gigalith as a more standalone mon didn't seem too impressive to me. The lack of utility or Fairy typing compared to Diancie seemed very off putting, as well as lack of much offensive pressure.

As for Indeedee, I didn’t think it would be too good prior to using it. It’s a very strong mon no doubt, but the speed and many different resistances/immunities to its moves makes it overall not as great in my eyes. Though, I was still optimistic going into the week for both of the mons.

Thoughts after:

I used Gigalith with Sandslash but instead of going for a full sand team I tried to make it more of a sand balance type structure, similar to PU's. The results were okay but Gigalith ended up not doing as much as I'd like. It was really passive a lot of times and just invited in wish pokemon to remove any progress I made before, or it'd invite in dangerous wallbreakers. It's super slow, and lacks the utility or benefits Diancie brings as a rock-type besides sand stream. Overall I'd only use it with sand, and even then it's pretty meh.

Not much changed for my perspectives of the new mons. Indeedee is fun as hell, though it didn't exceed my expectations really and the prevalence of natural checks on every team just kinda deters me tbh. Sometimes you'd just be able to click Expanding Force six times and win and other times.. it just existed as death fodder vs a Drapion + Steel team or any sort of protect Pokemon. I used modest to get more power but eitherway, being outsped by things like Mowtom and even Passimian was kind of rough. Celebi and now Snorlax gone is nice, but honestly still seems meh to me. Maybe I need to try out Healing Wish + breaker to get the full Indeedee experience.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1426398889 - Indeedee's okay bulk allowed it to clutch a win at the end.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1425154626-b7tvin12gdaqf50r3eba9z3y7reejw0pw - Indeedee goes crazy vs no psychic resist team

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1425388021-fczrf5usfq75te5tm8kgpo02mvjg2qcpw - Indeedee totally useless here but Gigalith's okay bulk is shown off, also shows how it can support the team.
 
Since no other posts seem to be going up thanks to the suspect, I wanted to share my run with Indeedee-F and post the winners!

:ss/indeedee-f:
​
PROS
  • Specs hits like a truck some games, especially versus fatter, slower teams without a Dark-type​
  • Scarf outspeeds Pass because of its solid speed tier​
  • Can afford Modest​
  • Good movepool of M Fire, D Gleam, Shadow Ball, Trick, H Wish, etc to get through its checks or support the team​
  • Terrain is funny sometimes when you switch into Fetch'd FI or face a Comfey​
  • Normal-type is a really cool defensive type on Indeedee to eat Ghost-type moves​
CONS
  • Slightly too weak, especially in a meta dominated by Zong, Guzz, Drap, etc who all can eat hits easily
  • Just too slow imo. Being able to run Modest is nice, but I'd rather slightly more speed for Drap or even Mowtom
  • Not necessarily frail, but hard to get in without some VoltTurn
  • Can't really spam Expanding Force in this meta so effectively
I think Indeedee-F was a TON of fun to run around with a bit this week. Pressing your funny move and watching a Mudsdale evaporate is extremely satisfying, and stopping a Comfey D Kiss was even better. I do think it has a legit niche as a standalone breaker, especially as it baits in Pokemon like Zong consistently, giving opportunity to Pokemon like Guzz, Drap, Ghost-types, etc to come in. I think this is its biggest strength in battle. Because of how deadly it is, your opponent will almost always make the easy and safe play instead of losing a mon, making games extremely choreographed. Super cool mon and I wonder how Male would be? I assume solid.

REPLAYS/TEAM
heh about that...forgot to save replays when I thought I did, but here's the team I used. It's a fat Indeedee-F Bulky Balance that I've LOVED. https://pokepast.es/7ca90aded1f9e71f

NURW7.png
 
With an ELO of 1400, congrats to Catalisador for winning this weeks iteration of research week! (tagging roxiee to add cata to the HOF)

When it came to Gigalith, everyone seemed to agree that Gigalith had potential, walling threats like Exploud and Salazzle, but felt very passive and slow, almost entirely outclassed by Diancie. Sand teams are cool too, and saw some use, but weird to pilot in a meta full of Steels and Grounds. Overall, it isn't bad, especially since it pressures Xatu, which for many is the hazard control on a team, but there are better options.

On the other side, there was Indeedee-F, a really weird, but cool breaker in the tier. To quote Turt, "Indeedee is just fun as hell" and I think most people felt the same way, whether it was Phantom's wild terrain HO or a more traditional bulky balance like I used. Indeedee is able to beat a lot of fat teams, and thanks to its terrain, it can even be a pseudo Fetch'd stopper, too. As many saw, it was often useless though in games that hard a Dark + Steel type core, making it very hit or miss.

Thank you everyone for participating for this iteration of research week! Our next one should be right after the suspect, and I promise it'll be one week this time :p
 
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