NU Stage 5 - Zangoose Suspect Discussion

[Fun With Knives]

I honestly know I should stay out of this one, but I can name two checks to Zangoose.

Support Armaldo can come in on Facade fairly easily, taking a max of 37% from it, and hit back hard with Stone Edge or X-Scissor for a near-definite OHKO off of Close Combat's defense drop.

Haunter can come in on anything but Shadow Claw and beat Zangoose to the punch with a Quick Attack immunity and STAB Sludge Bomb, and can carry a Sash in case of anticipation.

Two counters really isn't much, especially when one of which falls outside of its main niche to operate as a counter, and falls in line with the oft-supported ban.

 

[Shovel]

I've been testing Zangoose, since this thread was made. Well, here is something I would like to point out. It's a log from a battle I just had..

Hide

Probopass: gg
Mysterious User: i don't get it '_;
Mysterious User: zangoose isn't gg
Probopass: Unless Raichu has a priority move, I believe this is the end.
Mysterious User: zangoose is a crutch so i'll assume you're new :o
Mysterious User sent out Raichu!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Raichu!
Turn 22
Probopass: Not what I mean
Probopass: I said gg because the game will end with Zangoose
Probopass: I can just Quick attack the rest, unless Raichu has priority
Mysterious User: i don't think you understand :<
Probopass: And if it does, then Gg anyway, because Raichu beats Samurott
Mysterious User: i know you're going to win
Probopass: So I said Gg (Good Game). Because I pretty much had the game from here.
Mysterious User: but i'm going to humour it BECAUSE zangoose is a learning crutch
Mysterious User: for new players
Mysterious User: anyways
Mysterious User: have a good one
Probopass: Zangoose is suspect to get banned, so Im abusing it while I can. Usually I just use Tauros <3

Why must people do this..

Im not sure that I exactly WANT it to get banned, but I believe it definitely deserves more this discussion. The only thing that comes close to what it does is Tauros (assuming Cinccino is out of the question), which is faster but less powerful.

Zangoose is sort of a go-to pokemon when you are in trouble, and is good for a late-game sweep. I cant say much that hasn't already been said; If you can wear it down with Toxic + a Wall, it's done. If you let it come in late game and win, then you're done. Zangoose certainly isn't going to be much use on, say, turn 3, unless the whole team is weak to it's attacks (which is awful team building).

Im on either side of it's ban, but I would certainly love to use it more before there is a decision.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

That's the thing though, there's not a single wall in the tier that isn't 2HKO'd by the Swords Dance set.

 

[mailanbr]

Even though I am not a very frequent poster, I am very familiar with the metagame from playing it and from constant daily lurking on the forums.

Zangoose has become a huge threat with the Toxic Boost, but the main thing I can think of with Zangoose being badly poisoned, is the same thing I always used to hear about Ursaring. They are both set on a timer. Before Toxic Boost was released on Zangoose, I used to run Quick Feet Swords Dance Ursaring, and it practically covers the same things as the other. The main thing I always found to be a nuisance is getting that Swords Dance up without having to worry about being hit back in return for that move. Even getting hit back with a move that hurt 20% severely crippled Ursaring because that Toxic is quickly draining it's HP.

Zangoose practically has this same problem. In order to use Swords Dance, it's probably going to take some sort of hit, and that's not even factoring in hazards. Zangoose also has slightly less "bulk" than Ursaring with 73/60/60 defenses compared to Ursaring's 90/75/75. Of course neither of the two have any bulk to brag about, so they are going to take some sort of hit not too lightly. After also using Honko's "One vs All" calculator, both of them seem to practically have the same amount of walls for them, all while that Toxic is draining them down. The main thing I see that Zangoose has that can be used as a major threat is Quick Attack, as priority with STAB and that Toxic Boost is quite deadly to revenge kill quite a lot.

Now I know that the main discussion here is about if we should ban Zangoose or not and that Ursaring really has nothing to do with it, but I am just using it as a comparison. Both Pokemon are extremely powerful, but that Toxic timer is what really makes it lack that "oompf" for a proper sweep. I'm not sure if I were to have a say in the voting process, but if so, I would say do NOT ban. I hope my post had some valuable points to it other than the comparison between the two Pokes.

 

[Shovel]

A Zangoose with a Swords Dance up is way more threatening than a Quick Feet Ursaring with one. And, as Chaotica said, there isnt a single wall in the tier not 2hkod by the Swords Dance set, which really speaks.

Perfect coverage and an amazing STAB also set it apart from other from sweepers, while the aforementioned Quick Attack helps give it the edge of Urasring. More and more I feel this pokemon is going to get banned.

Not even a scarfer will be able to take him down without taking damage, while Sub/Disable Haunter is it's biggest enemy. That being said, subdisable is uncommon, however it is very useful, especially in this situation.. But I dont think that's enough.

 

[mailanbr]

List of Pokemon that aren't 2HKO'd by Toxic Boost'd Zangoose at +2 assuming that Zangoose:

Whirlipede (NU Hazard Support) Shadow Claw 36.26 - 42.6% || Quick Attack 31.33 - 36.97%
Golbat (NU Defensive) Shadow Claw 38.98 - 45.76% || Quick Attack 33.61 - 39.26%
Weezing (NU Physical Tank) Shadow Claw 40.11 - 47.3% || Quick Attack 34.73 - 40.71%
Swalot (NU Defensive) Shadow Claw 42.32 - 49.75% || Quick Attack 36.63 - 43.06%
Tropius (NU SubSeed) Shadow Claw 42.53 - 50% || Quick Attack 36.81 - 43.28%
Masquerain (NU QuiverPass [Intimidate]) Shadow Claw 44.31 - 52.18% || Quick Attack 38.19 - 44.89%
Wormadam-G (NU Weather Worm) Shadow Claw 45.37 - 53.39% || Quick Attack 39.19 - 46.29%
Tangela (NU Physically Defensive) Close Combat 47.3 - 55.68% || Shadow Claw 27.84 - 32.63%
Garbodor (NU Spikes) Shadow Claw 47.52 - 55.76% || Quick Attack 40.93 - 48.07%

Now of course not all of these Pokemon actually see the light of the day, and having to use some of them just to counter Zangoose would be ridiculous, but there are still some viable Pokemon in that list that also counter Zangoose.
The main Pokemon that stands out to me in this list is Tropius, being that it is a SubSeed set with Protect and Sitrus Berry that has a 50% chance of always coming back.

There really aren't too many Pokes that can counter Zangoose as a defensive wall, but this list also doesn't include SubDisable Haunter. There are also many priority users that can retaliate against Zangoose in return or even a Scarfer as Quick Attack usually isn't a OHKO on much.

 

[Raseri]

List of Pokemon that aren't 2HKO'd by Toxic Boost'd Zangoose at +2 assuming that Zangoose:

Now of course not all of these Pokemon actually see the light of the day, and having to use some of them just to counter Zangoose would be ridiculous, but there are still some viable Pokemon in that list that also counter Zangoose.
The main Pokemon that stands out to me in this list is Tropius, being that it is a SubSeed set with Protect and Sitrus Berry that has a 50% chance of always coming back.

There really aren't too many Pokes that can counter Zangoose as a defensive wall, but this list also doesn't include SubDisable Haunter. There are also many priority users that can retaliate against Zangoose in return or even a Scarfer as Quick Attack usually isn't a OHKO on much.

Facade kills that whole list. just saying

 

[mailanbr]

Facade kills that whole list. just saying

I thought about Facade, and here's why you don't want to use it: You are getting rid of a coverage move. Close Combat is crucial to take down Rocks and Steel types, while Shadow Claw is necessary to do anything to Ghost types. Quick Attack is what the community seems to be contemplating about because of that priority STAB with Toxic Boost. Giving it Facade over Quick Attack just makes it more susceptible to be revenge killed by another priority user or a Choice Scarfer.

 

[watashi]

I thought about Facade, and here's why you don't want to use it: You are getting rid of a coverage move. Close Combat is crucial to take down Rocks and Steel types, while Shadow Claw is necessary to do anything to Ghost types. Quick Attack is what the community seems to be contemplating about because of that priority STAB with Toxic Boost. Giving it Facade over Quick Attack just makes it more susceptible to be revenge killed by another priority user or a Choice Scarfer.

no. facade is what makes zangoose so powerful and should be the first move used on any set.

 

[TROP]

I thought about Facade, and here's why you don't want to use it: You are getting rid of a coverage move. Close Combat is crucial to take down Rocks and Steel types, while Shadow Claw is necessary to do anything to Ghost types. Quick Attack is what the community seems to be contemplating about because of that priority STAB with Toxic Boost. Giving it Facade over Quick Attack just makes it more susceptible to be revenge killed by another priority user or a Choice Scarfer.

People actually run Zangoose without Facade? Without it Zangoose would be way easier to handle and not even a suspect.

 

[canno]

I thought about Facade, and here's why you don't want to use it: You are getting rid of a coverage move. Close Combat is crucial to take down Rocks and Steel types, while Shadow Claw is necessary to do anything to Ghost types. Quick Attack is what the community seems to be contemplating about because of that priority STAB with Toxic Boost. Giving it Facade over Quick Attack just makes it more susceptible to be revenge killed by another priority user or a Choice Scarfer.

Zangoose without Facade is like a clown without make-up. Sure, you could in theory go without it, but if you do, you just look silly. (I'm bad at analogies ;-;)

Seriously though, the whole reason it's being suspected is it's insanely powerful Facade, perfect coverage, and surprisingly strong Quick Attack to kill anything faster, not to mention a way to boost it's offenses sky-high (after SD, it's pretty much at +3). Zangoose without Facade is a lot easier to manage than a Zangoose with Facade.

 

[EndQuote]

Zangoose wishes Gamefreak could give it five moveslots. (Alongside the obligated Swords Dance and Facade, I'd love to be able to carry Quick Attack, Night Slash AND Close Combat)
Close Combat and Night Slash provide coverage against Steel and Rock or Ghost, respectively, while Quick Attack gives you reliable STAB priority.

When I used Zangoose, I used it almost exclusively late-game, and got rid of Shadow Claw.
Once any ghosts had been taken care of, Zangoose could come in and punch huge holes in anything left.

Zangoose is an effective late-game sweeper, but struggles early-game due to an inability to do everything at once, alongside his poisoning racking up passive damage.

I personally haven't had a problem with Zangoose recently, because once I figure out what move he's missing, the rest is easy.

 

[Ash Obtained Kush]

Toxic Boost acts just like an exaggerated Life Orb, in my opinion. it gives Zangoose roughly the equivalent power of an Adamant base 120 when using a Jolly nature, which while good, isn't terrifying. Rather, the most terrifying factor is its 140 BP STAB attack, especially when so few things in the tier can switch into it and not be outsped and 2HKO'd by a coverage move immediately afterward (Haunter is the only one that springs to mind) Nonetheless, it can still be played around fairly easily through clever switching, protect users, etc, to stack up Toxic recoil. While Zangoose's power and coverage is daunting, it's not unmanageable in my opinion.

 

[mailanbr]

Okay, so Facade seems to be an "obligatory move" on Zangoose no matter what. Now we have a problem here. With Facade, that means another move needs to be dropped from Quick Attack, Shadow Claw/Night Slash, Close Combat, and Swords Dance. Zangoose severely suffers from 4-Moveslot-Syndrome. Sure it could just have perfect coverage by dropping Swords Dance for Facade, but then the list of counters rises since it is no longer at +2. Again, running Facade over Quick Attack just makes Ursaring outclass it in speed and almost any Scarfer could easily revenge kill Zangoose since it lacks that priority. I am quite curious what the set to run for Zangoose is, because it seems that it is going to be missing out on a certain move that it needs in order to be "broken."

 

[jake]

Okay, so Facade seems to be an "obligatory move" on Zangoose no matter what. Now we have a problem here. With Facade, that means another move needs to be dropped from Quick Attack, Shadow Claw/Night Slash, Close Combat, and Swords Dance. Zangoose severely suffers from 4-Moveslot-Syndrome. Sure it could just have perfect coverage by dropping Swords Dance for Facade, but then the list of counters rises since it is no longer at +2. Again, running Facade over Quick Attack just makes Ursaring outclass it in speed and almost any Scarfer could easily revenge kill Zangoose since it lacks that priority. I am quite curious what the set to run for Zangoose is, because it seems that it is going to be missing out on a certain move that it needs in order to be "broken."

Four attacks: Facade / CC / Quick Attack / Night Slash. You don't need SD when you 2HKO Tangela / Alomomola with Facade after a layer of Spikes or SR (and if you have more, you do even better). If you're talking about the Quick Feet Ursaring set, it only outspeeds stuff from the 90-105 Spe range (the only notable one is Haunter), and Zangoose hits a lot harder than QF Ursa. QA isn't strong enough to dent the more common Scarf users regardless.

 

[Yuelia]

Okay, so Facade seems to be an "obligatory move" on Zangoose no matter what. Now we have a problem here. With Facade, that means another move needs to be dropped from Quick Attack, Shadow Claw/Night Slash, Close Combat, and Swords Dance. Zangoose severely suffers from 4-Moveslot-Syndrome. Sure it could just have perfect coverage by dropping Swords Dance for Facade, but then the list of counters rises since it is no longer at +2. Again, running Facade over Quick Attack just makes Ursaring outclass it in speed and almost any Scarfer could easily revenge kill Zangoose since it lacks that priority. I am quite curious what the set to run for Zangoose is, because it seems that it is going to be missing out on a certain move that it needs in order to be "broken."

I hope people don't mind me quoting one of my posts from the suspect nominations thread, but I think this fits well here since almost this exact same argument was brought up there and this was intended as a rebuttal:

Yes, Zangoose really wishes it had five move slots. The problem, though, is that if your opponent has a Zangoose, you don't know which of those three moves it's missing. Hmm, I think I can wall it with this defensive mon...oh, but it might have Swords Dance. Hey, I have a Misdreavus...no, wait, it might Night Slash/Shadow Claw me. Let's revenge it with Swellow! Oops, Quick Attack.

Until you see what moves Zangoose is running, you pretty much have to treat its move set as SD/Facade/CC/Quick/Ghost coverage, even though you know it can't have all five of those moves, because what if it does have that move that beats me, and by the time you find out it doesn't it's already taken out one or two of your mons. As I said in my first post: there is nothing in the tier that can safely come in on Zangoose, assuming Stealth Rock is down - and even on the off chance that it isn't, the list of mons is still tiny and limited to once-only full health checks.

 

[jake]

Just posting to let everyone know that all three suspect threads will be closed in a day or so (posting in Zangoose's because it's easily the most popular etc), and then those who have voting rights will PM their paragraphs to me. I'll detail exactly what's needed in a PM later tomorrow.

Get your discussing in, if you haven't already. :)

 

[mailanbr]

Well I just had a completely thought out post with me saying that my opinion on Zangoose has changed thanks to Malkyrian's last post showing how it's a mind game until you finally find out what 4 moves Zangoose is running, and even then it might be too late. Then I went on with what Zebraiken was saying about how it doesn't need SD, in which I posted very few calcs for Pokemon that can actually survive a hit from Zangoose in that situation (which is here in case you are interested):

Shuckle (NU Utility) Close Combat 35.65 - 41.8% || Facade 31.14 - 36.47%
Armaldo (NU Support) Close Combat 37 - 43.5% || Facade 32.2 - 37.85%
Tangela (NU Physically Defensive) Facade 41.61 - 48.8% || Close Combat 23.95 - 28.14%
Wormadam-S (NU Defensive Worm) Close Combat 41.66 - 49.07% Facade 36.41 - 42.59%
Misdreavus (NU Calm Mind) Shadow Claw 43.82 - 51.85% || Facade 0 - 0%
Shelgon (NU Bulky Dragon Dance) Facade 46.1 - 54.19% || Close Combat 26.34 - 31.13%
Luxray (NU Defensive [Intimidate]) Facade 48.62 - 57.14% || Close Combat 27.74 - 32.69%
Alomomola (NU Support) Facade 49.25 - 57.86% || Close Combat 28.08 - 33.14%

.

And lastly I stated how I felt that if you didn't run a Poke from either the list I made before or this small list here, then there really isn't much you can do to survive against Zangoose unless your team spams Protect or that you have a faster priority user than Zangoose. I'm not so sure what it takes to have something to be banned, but from what I remember in previous discussions is that if it overcentralizes the metagame in which the player is forced to use something in order to survive against a Pokemon, and it seems that you are forced to use something from either list or else there really isn't much you can do in return against Zangoose. This is just my thought process on how I now believe that Zangoose is overpowered and should be banned.

Note to self: Be sure to copy my post before actually posting so it doesn't randomly log me out.

 

[Shovel]

Im just going to say, Shuckle and Wormadam are hardly worth noting anyway. They can only protect twice, where Zangoose can switch to preserve hp.

 

[Zentrius]

Every single one of those things are 2HKO'ed with Rocks on the field (Wormadam might survive two close combats, but who uses that shit lol). It seems impossible for anything to switch safely into Zangoose, unless you predict corectly and switch in Haunter on Zangoose, and quickly dispatch it with a swift Sludge Bomb.

 

[Fun With Knives]

Assuming rocks, Haunter cannot OHKO Zangoose until at least 2 turns of poison damage have occured. Just figured that out. Gonna need to be more careful with Haunter's switch prediction.

 

[EndQuote]

Sub-Disable Haunter can revenge-kill or at least force Zangoose out, though.
She can come in, outspeed, and throw up a Substitute.
Zangoose's only attack that can hit her is Night Slash.
Once that's Disabled, he's a sitting duck.

There are two scenarios:

Scenario One:
1) Haunter throws up a Sub, Night Slash immediately breaks it.
2) Haunter Disables Night Slash, Zangoose cannot attack Haunter.
3) Zangoose either switches out or dies.

Scenario Two:
1) Haunter throws up a Sub, Night Slash immediately breaks it.
2) Haunter uses Disable, but Zangoose-user recognized Sub/Disable and used Quick Attack. Quick Attack is now Disabled.
3) Zangoose has now taken two turns of Poison Damage.

Assuming rocks, Haunter cannot OHKO Zangoose until at least 2 turns of poison damage have occured.

4) Sludge Bomb OHKOes the poisoned Zangoose.

EDIT: In response to JacobJinglePocket, I'd like you to actually read the part of this post I've bolded.

The only trouble is getting Haunter in, but since she can switch in on 4 out of 5 of the moves Zangoose commonly carries, I usually don't have a problem.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

We have plenty of Pokemon that can revenge kill Zangoose. That's not really an issue here. We're looking for viable counters, which we have virtually none of.

 

[JacobJinglepocket]

Sub-Disable Haunter can revenge-kill or at least force Zangoose out, though.
She can come in, outspeed, and throw up a Substitute.
Zangoose's only attack that can hit her is Night Slash.
Once that's Disabled, he's a sitting duck.

There are two scenarios:

Scenario One:
1) Haunter throws up a Sub, Night Slash immediately breaks it.
2) Haunter Disables Night Slash, Zangoose cannot attack Haunter.
3) Zangoose either switches out or dies.

Scenario Two:
1) Haunter throws up a Sub, Night Slash immediately breaks it.
2) Haunter uses Disable, but Zangoose-user recognized Sub/Disable and used Quick Attack. Quick Attack is now Disabled.
3) Zangoose has now taken two turns of Poison Damage.

4) Sludge Bomb OHKOes the poisoned Zangoose.

But why would you leave Zangoose out on Haunter when almost all of them are either SubDisable or SubPainSplit? Anyone with a lick of sense would switch out on the second turn to a more viable counter, like Skuntank or Bastiodon.

 

[marilli]

OK, I have no problem talking facts. And the fact is, if you try to switch in Zangoose defensively, you'll probably lose a mon. At the very least, even if you don't lose anything, you need multiple mons in good health just to deal with it. It is also true that SD Zangoose murders stall given perfect prediction. If you try to say anything to this, you're just lying, or distorting the truth.

But may I point out, this argument leaves a single, incredibly controversial step left unproven--yet somehow not challenged in this thread. Does the three-facet combo of (Fast + Able to Change Moves + Impossible to switch into without losing something big) necessarily mean "Ban"? If you have to rely on revenge killing and smart switching to deal with it, it is clearly broken? (Warning: some comparisons below may be a bit Farfetch'd.) Starmie may have something to say about that: it's impossible to switch into Starmie safely, lest you have some 'really obvious' switches. Even then, you get your hazards spun away, and Starmie escapes. How about MixMence? If MixMence switches in and Mence user predicts correctly: buh-bye, wall! And you know the deal, that leaves a hole in stall and it's hard to play further. I'm not done with their similarities. They have a single move that usually says: "ROFL GG WALL", and 2 or so coverage moves that destroys whatever the Numero Uno move doesn't. They are both prone to residual damage, and has a significant incentive to switch in and out often. Only a chosen few of the metagame outspeed them. They have no 100% counters, especially with Spikes, but both have quite some checks. There's some ways to deal with it with some sleazy switches. If Alomomola is at full health and say you have something else that can take a hit (let's say Amoonguss, but others work too) Switch to Alomomola -> Protect -> Amoonguss (or anything that can take a hit) -> Alomomola -> Protect kills Zangoose 100% of the time. It got worn down a lot, but doesn't that usually happen when you face most things that try to break stall with brute force? And to be fair, Alomo will be at around 60% when it switches back in. Not that much. If you have better prediction you can cut this loss down.

Also, for SD Zangoose, you lose a coverage. This gets you easily revenge-killed and virtually useless vs. offense, or you get hard walled by Rocks or Ghosts. From there, it's just Pokemon. We have a new ghost type and basically 4 really really viable ones right now. We have tons of Rock-types as we can see. You need a rock-type to deal with Swellow and set SR, anyways...

Phew, that was quite a rant. What I'm really frustrated about is that this thread is full of people who are like "can't switch in defensively with a single mon, must ban" when I know for a fact quite some people on the council are still thinking about this, including myself. Really, all I hope is that my fellow council members aren't stupid enough to just 'go along with the flow' and ban without much thought.