Wasn't Salamence banned in Gen IV because of the reasons you posted above? And even then, your comparison doesn't really work as the few checks to Zangoose there are either have to be EV'd outside their usual niche (Max/Max+ Regirock, defensive Armaldo), are rarely seen (Wormadam, Shuckle), or are easily taken care of by other members of your team (Gothitelle can tear the Alomomoonguss core to shreds with Shadow Tag.)
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NU Stage 5 - Zangoose Suspect Discussion
- Thread starter jake
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Wasn't Salamence banned in Gen IV because of the reasons you posted above? And even then, your comparison doesn't really work as the few checks to Zangoose there are either have to be EV'd outside their usual niche (Max/Max+ Regirock, defensive Armaldo), are rarely seen (Wormadam, Shuckle), or are easily taken care of by other members of your team (Gothitelle can tear the Alomomoonguss core to shreds with Shadow Tag.)
Oh jesus can we please stop with inane arguments I'm having enough of those today. I'm obviously talking about the fifth gen, where Mence can still do that. And how do we know if Zangoose is broken or Gothi is broken for doing that? It's not like we've only had 3 days to use Gothi. Also didn't I show you without the Gothi part we have a solid two-mon way to guarantee no loss. I say useless bolds and italics and underlines Should Be Banned because they do nothing to help a seedy argument.
If I wasn't being clear enough this rant + majority of the post before were more directed at people who were saying same things over and over again and bolding things at the end as if this was a voting thread. This is the argument thread. The voting thread is over there.
(Delete this post, Zeb + Django, if you want. Whatever man)
olol
lmao i like how raseri wasn't included :)
If I wasn't being clear enough this rant + majority of the post before were more directed at people who were saying same things over and over again and bolding things at the end as if this was a voting thread. This is the argument thread. The voting thread is over there.
(Delete this post, Zeb + Django, if you want. Whatever man)
olol
lmao i like how raseri wasn't included :)
Mence was banned in Gen 4, but remains now, and it can still be just as dangerous.
Anyway, the point Amarillo is making is just because a Pokemon has no "counters" does not necessarily mean it is broken. Look at Gengar, next to nothing hard counters it, but it has a whole load of checks. Same goes for Lucario. And indeed Zangoose. I think we can all agree that there are no traditional counters to Zangoose, but it certainly has a large number of checks. Priority is one of the biggest of these, and NU certainly doesn't lack in strong priority users: Gurdurr (one of the most underated Pokemon this metagame), Samurott, Carracosta are all excellent, and any Pokemon with Sucker Punch can play extreme mind games with Cacturne. Gurdurr and Carracosta are also decent switch ins to Zangoose, and I'm surprised they have not been brought up more often. Haunter is probably the best answer to Zangoose, and if you combine it in a team with Gurdurr or Carracosta or the like, you have a very strong core and will have virtually no trouble with Zangoose. Like Amarillo said, Alomomola and Amooguss can deal with it despite getting worn down significantly.
As for "its checks are easily removed by team support": that argument can be applied to every single Pokemon in the game. The very point of playing Pokemon is to outplay your opponent by removing checks and counters to your main sweeper, and then well, sweeping. The fact that Zangoose can sweep once Gothitelle removes Alomomoonguss is irrelevant to how broken or not Zangoose is, and in fact indicates to be that Gothitelle would be the problem.
Edit: Amarillo mad.
Anyway, the point Amarillo is making is just because a Pokemon has no "counters" does not necessarily mean it is broken. Look at Gengar, next to nothing hard counters it, but it has a whole load of checks. Same goes for Lucario. And indeed Zangoose. I think we can all agree that there are no traditional counters to Zangoose, but it certainly has a large number of checks. Priority is one of the biggest of these, and NU certainly doesn't lack in strong priority users: Gurdurr (one of the most underated Pokemon this metagame), Samurott, Carracosta are all excellent, and any Pokemon with Sucker Punch can play extreme mind games with Cacturne. Gurdurr and Carracosta are also decent switch ins to Zangoose, and I'm surprised they have not been brought up more often. Haunter is probably the best answer to Zangoose, and if you combine it in a team with Gurdurr or Carracosta or the like, you have a very strong core and will have virtually no trouble with Zangoose. Like Amarillo said, Alomomola and Amooguss can deal with it despite getting worn down significantly.
As for "its checks are easily removed by team support": that argument can be applied to every single Pokemon in the game. The very point of playing Pokemon is to outplay your opponent by removing checks and counters to your main sweeper, and then well, sweeping. The fact that Zangoose can sweep once Gothitelle removes Alomomoonguss is irrelevant to how broken or not Zangoose is, and in fact indicates to be that Gothitelle would be the problem.
Edit: Amarillo mad.
Prankster Liepard can stall Zangoose effortlessly, outrunning Quick Attack and running it through its health with Protect and Substitute, as well as resisting every attack Gothitelle conventionally carries.
Also Foul Play.
Also Foul Play.
Weren't we assuming perfect prediction?
With defenses like a wet paper bag, how on earth are you going to get Liepard in?
EDIT: Not going to spam the thread responding, just going to edit in here.
My Haunter can switch in on Facade, Close Combat, Protect, Swords Dance and Quick Attack.
In addition, Sub-Disable Haunter is an underrated threat, especially against those who aren't prepared for her.
My check required no alteration to her standard set.
Meanwhile, you created your own entirely unviable set, which can barely switch in at all.
When it's viability was questioned, you decided to insult my Haunter rather than defend your Liepard.
Liepard cannot switch in, and I'm sure everyone is aware of that. Liepard is a revenge killer at best, but I seriously question the usefulness of Substitute Protect Liepard, and in fact Liepard in general. Can we please move this discussion on from random revenge killers and try and debate the points Amarillo brought up.
Can we go back to the Armaldo that I mentioned earlier?
With a support set, it eats every one of Zangoose's main moves, OHKOs off of Close Combat's defense drop, and is fairly common in the meta.
With a support set, it eats every one of Zangoose's main moves, OHKOs off of Close Combat's defense drop, and is fairly common in the meta.
Armaldo is an average check at best:
252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (Neutral) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Battle Armor Armaldo (+Def): 31% - 37% (113 - 133 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
252Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Battle Armor Armaldo (+Def): 36% - 43% (130 - 153 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Assuming that Stealth Rock is up and Zangoose rolls average damage (not max, average), Armaldo is left with 1%, and all Zangoose has to do is click Facade and Close Combat, no prediction required.
Anyway, we all know this, bringing up various checks is kind of irrelevant at this point, we have done that to death in this thread. Lets move on to talking about whether the presence of these checks is enough to make Zangoose broken or not. As I said previously, a Pokemon does not necessarily need hard counters to be balanced, and we have established Zangoose has close to 0 hard counters. Are the amount of checks present enough to balance Zangoose? Does Zangoose put too much of a strain on teambuilding? Are the checks to Zangoose viable and useful in the wider metagame?
252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (Neutral) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Battle Armor Armaldo (+Def): 31% - 37% (113 - 133 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
252Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Battle Armor Armaldo (+Def): 36% - 43% (130 - 153 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Assuming that Stealth Rock is up and Zangoose rolls average damage (not max, average), Armaldo is left with 1%, and all Zangoose has to do is click Facade and Close Combat, no prediction required.
Anyway, we all know this, bringing up various checks is kind of irrelevant at this point, we have done that to death in this thread. Lets move on to talking about whether the presence of these checks is enough to make Zangoose broken or not. As I said previously, a Pokemon does not necessarily need hard counters to be balanced, and we have established Zangoose has close to 0 hard counters. Are the amount of checks present enough to balance Zangoose? Does Zangoose put too much of a strain on teambuilding? Are the checks to Zangoose viable and useful in the wider metagame?
Serebii said:
Haven't we already said that Zangoose has virtually 0 safe switch-ins? I mean, we have plenty that can come in on certain attacks (Haunter on all but Night Slash, for example), but I was under the impression that we were to assume perfect prediction on the opponent's side. A few of our walls can come in on a non-SD Zangoose and easily tank hits, but that's about it as far as I see it. (Sorry if I just made myself look like an idiot.)
...Serebii...
That definition of check is pretty terrible tbh. To check a Pokemon you don't have to be able to switch in on every single one of its moves, that would be absurd. It would become virtually impossible to check anything, Pokemon like Emboar, Exeggutor, and Braviary would have 0 checks, which is just not true.
Assuming perfect prediction is a dangerous premise I feel, because it makes the suspected Pokemon appear much more dangerous. In practise no battler can predict perfectly, especially between good players when a lot of predictions come down to 50/50's. I don't get why we should then assume that the user of a suspect is a demi-god capable of reading minds.
Yes we have established that Zangoose has close to 0 "safe switch-ins" provided we assume the user can predict perfectly. In reality though, there are a number of Pokemon capable of switching in on the appropriate move. What we need to weigh up is whether there are enough of these to keep the metagame diverse, whether they fit easily onto standard teams, and how well they fare against the metagame in general. Basically, are these Pokemon all being used just for Zangoose (i.e. is it impacting the metagame in a negative way) or are they simply gaining popularity as the metagame naturally adapts to a new threat.
That definition of check is pretty terrible tbh. To check a Pokemon you don't have to be able to switch in on every single one of its moves, that would be absurd. It would become virtually impossible to check anything, Pokemon like Emboar, Exeggutor, and Braviary would have 0 checks, which is just not true.
Assuming perfect prediction is a dangerous premise I feel, because it makes the suspected Pokemon appear much more dangerous. In practise no battler can predict perfectly, especially between good players when a lot of predictions come down to 50/50's. I don't get why we should then assume that the user of a suspect is a demi-god capable of reading minds.
Yes we have established that Zangoose has close to 0 "safe switch-ins" provided we assume the user can predict perfectly. In reality though, there are a number of Pokemon capable of switching in on the appropriate move. What we need to weigh up is whether there are enough of these to keep the metagame diverse, whether they fit easily onto standard teams, and how well they fare against the metagame in general. Basically, are these Pokemon all being used just for Zangoose (i.e. is it impacting the metagame in a negative way) or are they simply gaining popularity as the metagame naturally adapts to a new threat.
Okay, I have about half an hour to bedtime so sorry if my points are a little shaky, but I'm going to address this as best I can.
First things first: NU is not OU. The availability of greater threats is what's expected in OU. If these mons didn't have these stand-out traits, they'd be UU. (Or BL, if you must.) And this availability changes what is viable and what is to be expected within the metagame.
Regarding the comparison to Starmie: I personally don't play OU at all, and haven't for a very long time (Therians? What are those?), so my apologies if I'm missing something here, but straight from Starmie's analysis overview:
Now, at this point, one might probably wonder why Starmie is not present on every team in OU. That's simply because BW introduced numerous Pokemon that harass Starmie, and even force it out. Ferrothorn takes a pittance from every single one of Starmie's attacks bar the rare Hidden Power Fire, and has the ability to OHKO Starmie with Power Whip. Additionally, the continued popularity of the powerful Pursuit and U-turn users Tyranitar and Scizor have severely limited Starmie's success.
Right there, we have three solid answers listed to Starmie that are also generally good and useful Pokemon. Two of them can - and this is key - prevent Zangoose from switching out safely. The last one can - and this is even more important, I think - completely hard counter Starmie, barring a coverage move specifically for it that isn't even a guaranteed 3HKO in Starmie's own generally preferred weather condition.
What can do any of that in NU? We've already gone over the utter lack of hard counters multiple times in this thread, so let's just stick to trappers, and to be generous, I'll assume they're revenge killing and don't need to switch in. Skuntank? Good old Pursuit/Sucker Punch mindgames, where if you guess wrong, you're done...with the added bonus that Zangoose can just bypass your Sucker Punch with Quick Attack and laugh. Absol? Same thing, except that many Absol don't even run Pursuit. Gothitelle? 65 base Speed, Facade, dead.
The point I'm getting at here is essentially this: OU is a profoundly different metagame from NU. It's a metagame where priority exists around every corner, where you can't necessarily expect Stealth Rock to be down 24/7 because of the number of Rapid Spinners, where you could consider practically every other mon uncounterable, and don't get me started on weather. None of these things are true for NU. I don't think it's a realistic comparison to make.
I would say that Zangoose absolutely puts too much of a strain on teambuilding.
To use Amarillo's example above, and I'll just quote directly here: "If Alomomola is at full health and say you have something else that can take a hit"...well, that right there is a pretty heavy teambuilding strain. If you need two heavy physical walls just to survive in the NU metagame purely because of one Pokemon, there is a serious problem. This makes heavily offensive teams non-viable, as they only have four members to use for their offense. Wish and Spore help, but Alomomoongus isn't terribly hard for the opposing team to milk setup turns from, which oftentimes the offensive team cannot afford. What about a stall-ish team build? Guess what, Zangoose has another set that has been established as something that absolutely rips that to shreds.
I'd go on, but frankly my brain is screaming at me to go to sleep, so I'll have to leave you with that for now.
Just becuase the power level of NU is lower than OU has no bearing on the fact there will always be top tier threats. Top-tier OU threats stand out in OU, top-tier NU threats stand out here. Think Emboar, Samurott, Exeggutor, Braviary. All of these are just as threatening in NU as something like Terrakion is in OU. This "availability" of threats is irrelevant, and the same thing can be expected of every metagame.
I'll ignore the Starmie comparison points because frankly I think they're pointless.
Yes they are different metagames, but some of the points you bring up here are wrong. Priority is everywhere in NU, perhaps even more so than OU. Gurdurr, Carracosta, Samurott, Absol, Skuntank, Linoone etc etc etc ALL carry priority. Even the Pokemon being suspected you are currently posting about carries priority. Secondly, just because OU has a higher power level does not mean that every other Pokemon is uncounterable. Yes there are a few examples (Terrakion, Gengar, Lucario) but this is exactly the comparison we are trying to make. For a metagame to be balanced (think BW1 OU), not every Pokemon has to be hard countered. We are not trying to draw direct comparisions between NU and OU, we are using OU as an example of a metagame which is (was) balanced, despite Pokemon with 0 counters existing. This situation can be applied to Zangoose.
Yes it appears to be a huge strain, but in reality you do not need two heavy physical walls. Pokemon that can "take a hit" could include any Ghost-type and almost every Rock or Steel type. Every single team in NU has to have a way to deal with Normal and Flying types, simply because of the number of powerful threats these types possess. It just so happens that a lot of these checks (Ghost-types, Rock/Steel types), already being used to check Cinccino / Braviary / Swellow also double up in checking Zangoose. I know for a fact that heavy offense teams can function easily without two "heavy physical walls", as thats basically all I have been playing this month. As for SD Zangoose destroying stall, yes that is true, but the various faults of SD Zangoose have already been brought up and I'm not going to go over them again.
Yeah, I knew Serebii would be a bad place to look, sorry about that. I agree with your opinion on the perfect prediction thing, but I've seen it thrown around quite a bit recently and I wasn't sure whether or not it applied to these discussions.
Like you said after this, we have plenty of Steel, Rock, and Ghost-type Pokemon that can easily come in on most of Zangoose's moves. We've also got tons of priority, revenge killers, Choice Scarf users, and a few faster Pokemon. I don't want to completely repeat everything you said, but I also feel like tons of the things we're already using to stop other Normal-type threats can work against Zangoose. The problem I find is that quite a few of them don't work as well at checking Zangoose as other Normals like Cinccino, Ursaring, etc. Its mix of power and speed isn't really matched by any other NU Pokemon, and while I can't say that makes it broken, it does give me a bit of trouble when I try to deal with it. It's certainly one of the very best offensive Pokemon we have right now. Then again, Gorebyss has more speed and a similar amount of power after a Shell Smash, but we found a way to deal with that after a month of adapting to it. Perhaps we can also adapt to Zangoose as well.Django said:
Honestly, I don't believe any of us have really had to fight it that often since its DW ability was released (the reason I say this is because its usage was kind of low last month and I've literally seen it about 10 times), which has given us a slightly skewed opinion on it due to both the hype surrounding it and a kind of witch-hunt mentality that's seemed to fall on this thread. The more I look at it the more I feel that it's just a really good Pokemon rather than a completely broken mega threat that we have no way of dealing with. Shit, at least it can't put any of our 'mons to sleep (fuck you Jynx). The discussion here in the past few days has kind of put me on the fence again; I'm not sure how I would vote if asked to right now.
Alright. I've withdrawn my judgment for a long while now, since - like several other voters - I've been incredibly borderline on Zangoose. There are a lot of facts about it that you can't deny and they've been talked about to hell and back so I'm not going to touch much on it. If you've been paying attention to this thread at all, you know what every single one of Zangoose's advantages are and what can revenge it. (Also, I'm not going to discuss SD Zangoose as of now, because it's easily the less popular set due to its inherent flaws, like dropping coverage / priority etc.) tl;dr incoming
zangoose & prediction
What I do want to talk about is what Amarillo (and Django) were talking about before. Let's start with a sample scenario here. Player A carries a more defensive, balanced team, while Player B has a hyper offensive team built to allow Zangoose to clean up. Player A has an 80% standard Golem waiting in the wings and a 55% or so physically defensive Amoonguss out, while Player B is down to just his Zangoose that had already been poisoned. Jump into Player A's shoes for a second here and think: what's the best way for Player A to win in this scenario? Anticipating a Facade to finish off Amoonguss, you could easily switch into Golem and proceed Sucker Punch while he uses Close Combat, allowing Amoonguss to come back in next turn, live a Facade, and KO with Sludge Bomb. But if he outpredicts you and Close Combats your Golem, you've essentially lost the game. Damn.
We've talked this over and over, this idea that the player on the defensive has to predict circles around Zangoose to win, but no one really has brought up the fact that Zangoose has to predict just as well, if not better than said player. Someone's going to come in here and say "but Zeb, all they have to do is spam Facade!" and I'm going to call you on your bullshit and tell you that if you don't carry a Normal-type resist in this meta you're going to get destroyed by Swellow / Braviary / Kangaskhan / Tauros / Cinccino / Linoone / Sawsbuck / idfk Slaking anyway. You're right, Zangoose is strong as hell and has the ability to 2HKO every single Pokemon in the tier given perfect prediction. But, uh, who says you have to constantly try to switch around and burn Zangoose out of its own Toxic? Every time you switch, you're giving the Zangoose player another opportunity to try to outpredict you and kill something, hence the need for "perfect prediction". Zangoose is easily the most prediction-based Pokemon in the NU metagame right now. From my experience playing against Zangoose (and with Zangoose), the best way to deal with it is to give it as few opportunities to wreck shit as possible. And that means, don't just try to switch around stupidly and hope that the Zangoose player fucks up seven or eight times, because that's just... awful. Yes, everything in the metagame is potentially 2HKOed. No, that doesn't mean that Zangoose OHKOes everything and automatically sweeps you whenever it comes out. Sometimes you do have to sac something to give another team member a free switch in and a chance to deal with Zangoose. Is there a better way to deal with something that has no legitimate hard counters?
edit: looking back now Dingle posted a little bit about not assuming perfect prediction now, but i'm just confirming that assuming perfect prediction is in general a dumb idea
In my opinion, here's what the almighty Zangoose does to bulkier, slower teams: it forces them to re-evaluate their most important Pokemon mid-game or whenever Zangoose comes out. It doesn't instantly necessitate prediction and flip-flopping half of your team around hoping to stall it out of Toxic damage, it necessitates smart play and knowing how your team is built to handle Zangoose. If you've got a 70% or so Musharna out when Zangoose comes in, you have to make the decision of whether or not it's more important to keep Musharna alive for his Sawk later in the match, or whether you should be letting it take the Facade so you can get a free shot at it with Psychic (and Toxic stalling it a bit!). If Zangoose comes out and everything you have is weakened to the point that Zangoose can clean up with Facade, does that mean Zangoose is broken? Or does it mean that you've just been a victim of good teambuilding and battling?
what does a good team need to beat zangoose?
Let's go over Django's questions for a little bit. What does a good team require to handle Zangoose, and do these requirements actually end up restricting our teambuilding options? Starting with offensive teams, Zangoose's presence in the metagame requires you to carry fast shit and / or Choice Scarf users. A lot of offensive teams work around fast Pokemon anyway (I'm talking stuff like Cinccino, Swellow, Tauros... even Serperior, Floatzel, or fast Miltank can keep Zangoose in check). Choice Scarf users are aplenty in the metagame as well, and Rotom-S is everywhere like it usually is. People experiment with and come up with new Choice Scarf users all the time (I've been hearing stuff about how good Scarf Tauros is lately?), so I honestly doubt that we're limited there. Priority is also available on offensive teams, and Dongle outlined some of the best users of it, like Gurdurr, Carracosta, and Samurott. While all of these things keep Zangoose in check, none of them are really forced by it, and I'd argue that Zangoose really doesn't have any sort of negative effect on offensive teams.
On the flip side, bulkier, defensive teams are where we run into trouble. How do defensive (or just plain slow) teams handle Zangoose? Like I said earlier, the primary way that defensive teams should be handling Zangoose is by minimizing its opportunities, both to switch in and to fire off attacks. Minimizing its opportunities to switch in involves everything from setting up hazards to simply just adjusting your team to make sure that it doesn't get a free switch-in on any given Pokemon. At this point in time, carrying a Misdreavus with just Shadow Ball + a status move is a dumb idea simply because you're giving Zangoose free switch-ins and free attacking opportunities, both things you don't want to be giving it. Minimizing its attacking opportunities is simply a matter of being aggressive with Zangoose. It's frail, it's got a Toxic Orb time-bomb strapped to its chest, and it hits really fucking hard. You might have to give up a Pokemon in order to bring in something that can handle it, but that's what Zangoose (and other Pokemon with no counters; see Amarillo's reference to MixMence, or even just Terrakion) forces you to do. At worst, if you mispredict, you lose a Pokemon for the ability to bring another one in to handle it. Part of the solution is to avoid situations like the one I described at the beginning of this post, where the guy had two weakened mons and was left to fend Zangoose. Can you still handle Zangoose when you're down like that? Yes, but the 50/50 of whether the Zangoose player will use Facade or Close Combat is going to determine the game for you. You should be trying to avoid situations like this at all costs, but if you do end up in a situation where Zangoose is threatening a late-game sweep on all of your bulkier Pokemon, I've got a question for you to think about: Is it really the broken qualities of Zangoose that are running amok over your team, or have you simply been worn down to that point through good play? Have you really kept your Zangoose checks intact, like you should have? Obviously if I let my Golem die early-game, I'm going to have trouble with Swellow. Isn't that the same situation with Zangoose?
There are a ton of mons that can take a hit from Zangoose and retaliate appropriately: think stuff like Tangela, Golurk, Alomomola, Amoonguss, Regirock, Armaldo, Carracosta, Golbat, Golem, Weezing, Relicanth... it might not have seemed like a lot before, but everything that I just mentioned is used on teams for reasons outside of keeping Zangoose in check, and yet they can do that as well. Fuck, guys, I had a 252/0 Vigoroth tank a Close Combat in one game and OHKO with Return in... return. Bulky teams aren't restricted to tanking hits, either; you've got a ton of access to priority (Gurdurr, Carracosta, Skuntank, Samurott, Absol, Linoone, really whatever the hell you want), and you could go for a faster Pokemon to handle Zangoose and keep other fast, powerful threats in check as well.
Playing a mix of both bulky, defensive teams and high-paced offensive teams, I have never directly lost to a Zangoose, ever. Zangoose is indeed manageable if you keep it in mind while you're building your teams (don't just throw together the five physically frailest Pokemon in NU and Alomomola and assume you've got Zangoose down!) and I really, really don't think it's worth banning. Hopefully I explained my thoughts properly, as it's like 2 AM atm and I'm not sure if what I wrote was entirely understandable.
tl;dr: As of now, I will be voting Do Not Ban.
zangoose & prediction
What I do want to talk about is what Amarillo (and Django) were talking about before. Let's start with a sample scenario here. Player A carries a more defensive, balanced team, while Player B has a hyper offensive team built to allow Zangoose to clean up. Player A has an 80% standard Golem waiting in the wings and a 55% or so physically defensive Amoonguss out, while Player B is down to just his Zangoose that had already been poisoned. Jump into Player A's shoes for a second here and think: what's the best way for Player A to win in this scenario? Anticipating a Facade to finish off Amoonguss, you could easily switch into Golem and proceed Sucker Punch while he uses Close Combat, allowing Amoonguss to come back in next turn, live a Facade, and KO with Sludge Bomb. But if he outpredicts you and Close Combats your Golem, you've essentially lost the game. Damn.
We've talked this over and over, this idea that the player on the defensive has to predict circles around Zangoose to win, but no one really has brought up the fact that Zangoose has to predict just as well, if not better than said player. Someone's going to come in here and say "but Zeb, all they have to do is spam Facade!" and I'm going to call you on your bullshit and tell you that if you don't carry a Normal-type resist in this meta you're going to get destroyed by Swellow / Braviary / Kangaskhan / Tauros / Cinccino / Linoone / Sawsbuck / idfk Slaking anyway. You're right, Zangoose is strong as hell and has the ability to 2HKO every single Pokemon in the tier given perfect prediction. But, uh, who says you have to constantly try to switch around and burn Zangoose out of its own Toxic? Every time you switch, you're giving the Zangoose player another opportunity to try to outpredict you and kill something, hence the need for "perfect prediction". Zangoose is easily the most prediction-based Pokemon in the NU metagame right now. From my experience playing against Zangoose (and with Zangoose), the best way to deal with it is to give it as few opportunities to wreck shit as possible. And that means, don't just try to switch around stupidly and hope that the Zangoose player fucks up seven or eight times, because that's just... awful. Yes, everything in the metagame is potentially 2HKOed. No, that doesn't mean that Zangoose OHKOes everything and automatically sweeps you whenever it comes out. Sometimes you do have to sac something to give another team member a free switch in and a chance to deal with Zangoose. Is there a better way to deal with something that has no legitimate hard counters?
edit: looking back now Dingle posted a little bit about not assuming perfect prediction now, but i'm just confirming that assuming perfect prediction is in general a dumb idea
In my opinion, here's what the almighty Zangoose does to bulkier, slower teams: it forces them to re-evaluate their most important Pokemon mid-game or whenever Zangoose comes out. It doesn't instantly necessitate prediction and flip-flopping half of your team around hoping to stall it out of Toxic damage, it necessitates smart play and knowing how your team is built to handle Zangoose. If you've got a 70% or so Musharna out when Zangoose comes in, you have to make the decision of whether or not it's more important to keep Musharna alive for his Sawk later in the match, or whether you should be letting it take the Facade so you can get a free shot at it with Psychic (and Toxic stalling it a bit!). If Zangoose comes out and everything you have is weakened to the point that Zangoose can clean up with Facade, does that mean Zangoose is broken? Or does it mean that you've just been a victim of good teambuilding and battling?
what does a good team need to beat zangoose?
Let's go over Django's questions for a little bit. What does a good team require to handle Zangoose, and do these requirements actually end up restricting our teambuilding options? Starting with offensive teams, Zangoose's presence in the metagame requires you to carry fast shit and / or Choice Scarf users. A lot of offensive teams work around fast Pokemon anyway (I'm talking stuff like Cinccino, Swellow, Tauros... even Serperior, Floatzel, or fast Miltank can keep Zangoose in check). Choice Scarf users are aplenty in the metagame as well, and Rotom-S is everywhere like it usually is. People experiment with and come up with new Choice Scarf users all the time (I've been hearing stuff about how good Scarf Tauros is lately?), so I honestly doubt that we're limited there. Priority is also available on offensive teams, and Dongle outlined some of the best users of it, like Gurdurr, Carracosta, and Samurott. While all of these things keep Zangoose in check, none of them are really forced by it, and I'd argue that Zangoose really doesn't have any sort of negative effect on offensive teams.
On the flip side, bulkier, defensive teams are where we run into trouble. How do defensive (or just plain slow) teams handle Zangoose? Like I said earlier, the primary way that defensive teams should be handling Zangoose is by minimizing its opportunities, both to switch in and to fire off attacks. Minimizing its opportunities to switch in involves everything from setting up hazards to simply just adjusting your team to make sure that it doesn't get a free switch-in on any given Pokemon. At this point in time, carrying a Misdreavus with just Shadow Ball + a status move is a dumb idea simply because you're giving Zangoose free switch-ins and free attacking opportunities, both things you don't want to be giving it. Minimizing its attacking opportunities is simply a matter of being aggressive with Zangoose. It's frail, it's got a Toxic Orb time-bomb strapped to its chest, and it hits really fucking hard. You might have to give up a Pokemon in order to bring in something that can handle it, but that's what Zangoose (and other Pokemon with no counters; see Amarillo's reference to MixMence, or even just Terrakion) forces you to do. At worst, if you mispredict, you lose a Pokemon for the ability to bring another one in to handle it. Part of the solution is to avoid situations like the one I described at the beginning of this post, where the guy had two weakened mons and was left to fend Zangoose. Can you still handle Zangoose when you're down like that? Yes, but the 50/50 of whether the Zangoose player will use Facade or Close Combat is going to determine the game for you. You should be trying to avoid situations like this at all costs, but if you do end up in a situation where Zangoose is threatening a late-game sweep on all of your bulkier Pokemon, I've got a question for you to think about: Is it really the broken qualities of Zangoose that are running amok over your team, or have you simply been worn down to that point through good play? Have you really kept your Zangoose checks intact, like you should have? Obviously if I let my Golem die early-game, I'm going to have trouble with Swellow. Isn't that the same situation with Zangoose?
There are a ton of mons that can take a hit from Zangoose and retaliate appropriately: think stuff like Tangela, Golurk, Alomomola, Amoonguss, Regirock, Armaldo, Carracosta, Golbat, Golem, Weezing, Relicanth... it might not have seemed like a lot before, but everything that I just mentioned is used on teams for reasons outside of keeping Zangoose in check, and yet they can do that as well. Fuck, guys, I had a 252/0 Vigoroth tank a Close Combat in one game and OHKO with Return in... return. Bulky teams aren't restricted to tanking hits, either; you've got a ton of access to priority (Gurdurr, Carracosta, Skuntank, Samurott, Absol, Linoone, really whatever the hell you want), and you could go for a faster Pokemon to handle Zangoose and keep other fast, powerful threats in check as well.
Playing a mix of both bulky, defensive teams and high-paced offensive teams, I have never directly lost to a Zangoose, ever. Zangoose is indeed manageable if you keep it in mind while you're building your teams (don't just throw together the five physically frailest Pokemon in NU and Alomomola and assume you've got Zangoose down!) and I really, really don't think it's worth banning. Hopefully I explained my thoughts properly, as it's like 2 AM atm and I'm not sure if what I wrote was entirely understandable.
tl;dr: As of now, I will be voting Do Not Ban.
I waited until now to post my opinion on zangoose because i was too lazy to post about it. Anyways. zangoose is definately one of the greatest threats in the NU metagame, but it is in no way broken. Although it is fast, there are still plenty of things faster than it. One of the biggest things that would suggest brokenness, Swords Dance, is very difficult to set up due to zangoose's frailty and the fact that zangoose is on a timer. And as for the four attacks set, although it is the best set imo, zangoose lacks the power from the SD. The top reason I think zangoose should not be banned is because of it's timer. Any well built team can stall out the toxic damage, or strike it with priority which of course will either deal damage or force zangoose to use the signifigantly weaker quick attack while it takes further toxic damage. Furthermore, anything bulky with rocky helmet that can take at least one hit will quickly wear down zangoose, especially if it has some form of recovery and protect (regirock, im looking at you.) And of course faster pokemon can really dampen zangoose's spirits as most of them can take a quick attack without much prior damage and get a hit off. Haunter, as has been discussed, gets a mention due to his ghost typing. All in all, zangoose is a fantastic pokemon that can be extraordinary in a good player's hands, but it also has many faults that can often supersede the benefits. Therefore, I think zangoose should NOT be banned.
yay, wall of text
yay, wall of text
Ok so after battling a few Zangoose and using it myself a few times here's my point of view. Zangoose should NOT be banned. Sure with the right move Zangoose can OHKO pretty much everything in the NU tier and sweep through unprepared teams but like any other threat, a good player will have a way of dealing with it. I myself have been using Sub-disable Haunter to check it and it works wonders, being immune to everything but Night Slash and then just Sub-disabling to completely shut Zangoose down.
Unfortunately for Zangoose, it also has 4MSS with players having to choose between Quick Attack and Swords Dance (Unless you wan't to get walled by Ghosts by losing NightSlash that is.) leading to other problems. It is very difficult for Zangoose to set up a SD seeing it's quite frail and most people leave there current pokemon as fodder while trying to do a nice bit of damage in return. Quick Attack imo is the superior option allowing Zangoose to finish of faster threats but even that doesn't always work seeing as a lot of Pokemon can take a Quick Attack and then finish Zangoose of.
Lets not forget that Zangoose is on a timer due to the Toxic, meaning as a last resort it can be stalled out providing you predict correctly and are willing to fodder a few Pokemon :P
Still Zangoose is a major threat in the NU tier and everybody should be using him. He doesn't come without his problems though and that's why I believe he should stay in the tier.
Unfortunately for Zangoose, it also has 4MSS with players having to choose between Quick Attack and Swords Dance (Unless you wan't to get walled by Ghosts by losing NightSlash that is.) leading to other problems. It is very difficult for Zangoose to set up a SD seeing it's quite frail and most people leave there current pokemon as fodder while trying to do a nice bit of damage in return. Quick Attack imo is the superior option allowing Zangoose to finish of faster threats but even that doesn't always work seeing as a lot of Pokemon can take a Quick Attack and then finish Zangoose of.
Lets not forget that Zangoose is on a timer due to the Toxic, meaning as a last resort it can be stalled out providing you predict correctly and are willing to fodder a few Pokemon :P
Still Zangoose is a major threat in the NU tier and everybody should be using him. He doesn't come without his problems though and that's why I believe he should stay in the tier.
So after holding back for posting until now, I thought I'd finally get my ass moving and write a post myself. I won't go into great detail since most stuff has been mentioned already and I agree with basically everything Zeb has brought up.
While Zangoose is, without a doubt, one of the most dangerous Pokemon at this point in time it certainly is not unstoppable. It is frail, wishes it had a little more speed (even though 90 is really good already) and loses health just for staying in. On the other hand, it does have the ability to 2HKO almost everything even remotely common in the tier with very little support while also having access to a very powerful priority move. One thing people always seem to forget is that Zangoose has to activate his Toxic Orb to reach full effectiveness: Sure, this can happen through a well timed Volt Switch/U-turn or just through finishing off something weakened, but it has to activate it nonetheless; it's not the unstoppable killing machine people make it out to be from the get-go (although it comes really close).
Even with all those facts at hand and the previous posts, Zangoose is still a very, VERY borderline case for me (and a lot of other people on the current council), but I believe Zebraikens post has finally brought me to a conclusion about it. While it does have the ability to significantly hurt everything in the tier, there are a ton of Pokemon that can take one hit and significantly hurt it; Amoonguss, Carracosta, Regirock, Gurdurr and even a healthy Lairon come to mind. And then there's the great deal of revenge killers and solid checks such as Scarfed Braviary/Emboar, SubDisable Haunter. One can not forget that Zangoose is even frailer than Cinccino and has an extremely difficult time switching into almost everything, as even most defensive Pokemon can hurt it badly or force it to take more Toxic damage. If a certain team is weaker to Zangoose than another team then it should, as Zeb said, try to limit its switch-in opportunities as much as possible.
Which brings me to my main point, stolen directly from Zeb: If people prioritize their sacrifices as well as the risks they take, then them getting swept by Zangoose is questionable. Zangoose is, as previously mentioned, very frail, and thus pretty much has to predict perfectly while also OHKO'ing everything or it will take a lot of damage, shortening its life even more. It just can't always do both of those things. Hence, actually playing strategically and only sacrificing what you absolutely need to sacrifice will cut down losses against Zangoose and eat at its limited lifespan (especially if said sacrifice can attack before dying). In the same vein, taking risks like switching to Haunter on what could be a Night Slash aren't worth it most of the time; a sacrifice to get Haunter in safely, for example, is often a better idea since Zangoose can rarely afford to come in more than once. Planning and foresight are all you need to beat Zangoose most of the time and, quoting Zeb again (sorry but that post was awesome), if you still lose against it, then you might have lost because you got outplayed (and/or haxed), and not because Zangoose is broken. That is what happens against most sweepers in the tier, and, while Zangoose certainly has a combination of power, speed and coverage no other Pokemon can imitate, certainly doesn't break a Pokemon.
Do I think Zangoose is broken? To be honest, even after all that has been said (even in my own post), I'm still not totally sure about it, but I'm tending towards not banning Zangoose for the reasons outlined above; call me crazy, but it might actually have a positive effect on the metagame. It singlehandedly forces people, regardless of their playstyle, to think more about the current situation in the battle. Foresight and analyzing your current standpoint as well as options are certainly very important parts of Pokemon, so would Zangoose, who enforces just that, have a positive effect on the metagame and its players as a whole? Maybe.
While Zangoose is, without a doubt, one of the most dangerous Pokemon at this point in time it certainly is not unstoppable. It is frail, wishes it had a little more speed (even though 90 is really good already) and loses health just for staying in. On the other hand, it does have the ability to 2HKO almost everything even remotely common in the tier with very little support while also having access to a very powerful priority move. One thing people always seem to forget is that Zangoose has to activate his Toxic Orb to reach full effectiveness: Sure, this can happen through a well timed Volt Switch/U-turn or just through finishing off something weakened, but it has to activate it nonetheless; it's not the unstoppable killing machine people make it out to be from the get-go (although it comes really close).
Even with all those facts at hand and the previous posts, Zangoose is still a very, VERY borderline case for me (and a lot of other people on the current council), but I believe Zebraikens post has finally brought me to a conclusion about it. While it does have the ability to significantly hurt everything in the tier, there are a ton of Pokemon that can take one hit and significantly hurt it; Amoonguss, Carracosta, Regirock, Gurdurr and even a healthy Lairon come to mind. And then there's the great deal of revenge killers and solid checks such as Scarfed Braviary/Emboar, SubDisable Haunter. One can not forget that Zangoose is even frailer than Cinccino and has an extremely difficult time switching into almost everything, as even most defensive Pokemon can hurt it badly or force it to take more Toxic damage. If a certain team is weaker to Zangoose than another team then it should, as Zeb said, try to limit its switch-in opportunities as much as possible.
Which brings me to my main point, stolen directly from Zeb: If people prioritize their sacrifices as well as the risks they take, then them getting swept by Zangoose is questionable. Zangoose is, as previously mentioned, very frail, and thus pretty much has to predict perfectly while also OHKO'ing everything or it will take a lot of damage, shortening its life even more. It just can't always do both of those things. Hence, actually playing strategically and only sacrificing what you absolutely need to sacrifice will cut down losses against Zangoose and eat at its limited lifespan (especially if said sacrifice can attack before dying). In the same vein, taking risks like switching to Haunter on what could be a Night Slash aren't worth it most of the time; a sacrifice to get Haunter in safely, for example, is often a better idea since Zangoose can rarely afford to come in more than once. Planning and foresight are all you need to beat Zangoose most of the time and, quoting Zeb again (sorry but that post was awesome), if you still lose against it, then you might have lost because you got outplayed (and/or haxed), and not because Zangoose is broken. That is what happens against most sweepers in the tier, and, while Zangoose certainly has a combination of power, speed and coverage no other Pokemon can imitate, certainly doesn't break a Pokemon.
Do I think Zangoose is broken? To be honest, even after all that has been said (even in my own post), I'm still not totally sure about it, but I'm tending towards not banning Zangoose for the reasons outlined above; call me crazy, but it might actually have a positive effect on the metagame. It singlehandedly forces people, regardless of their playstyle, to think more about the current situation in the battle. Foresight and analyzing your current standpoint as well as options are certainly very important parts of Pokemon, so would Zangoose, who enforces just that, have a positive effect on the metagame and its players as a whole? Maybe.
It's because Venoshock is a ridiculously underpowered move and nobody should ever use it...
The problem with dealing with Zangoose is how hard it can really hit, and to be honest, it doesn't really need to even predict right when it is so powerful that when something can take a hit, the second one is very rarely taken, as it can 2HKO the entire tier without hardly needing to predict. With a decent speed, technical immunity to burning, a STAB priority move, Swords Dance, and extremely powerful moves in general, it may seem like it is impossible to take down.
However, this isn't really the case. When Zangoose is sent out safetly, there is no question something will get KOed very quickly. The best way to deal with this problem? Sacrifice. While Sacrifice is bad usually, there isn't much of a Choice against Zangoose. From there, there are several Choice Scarfed Pokemon and faster, slightly bulky Pokemon that can quickly doom Zangoose. Even then, while the entire tier can be 2HKOd, there are many Pokemon that can take one hit and retaliate, and Zangoose is so frail that this it risks getting a KO (such as Amoonguss, and Golurk can suprisingly take a hit at full health). This isn't Swellow who outspeeds every common NU Pokemon, so it isn't going to be the end of you're team often, and likely, something out there can take a Quick Attack and OHKO still alive on your team. Since it needs (wants?) the moveslots, it can only really have 4 of 6 moves it wants (Facade, Quick Attack, Night Slash, CC, Protect, and SD)
Well, what if there isn't? To be honest, Zangoose is a frightening late-game sweeper, but there are similar cleaners as well (hit very hard and finish off a team) such as Choice Scarf Sawk or Choice Scarf Braviary. In truth, Zangoose is similar to them except it can switch moves (and also hits much harder, at the cost of some speed thanks to a ), but there are enough ways to deal with it to warrant from me a No Ban, albeit barely.
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