-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
NU Viability Ranking
- Thread starter Annoyer
- Start date
- Status
If you guys would like, I could work on this and send it to the heads on the post. Love to work on this
RU was like that because, if I remeber correctly, their meta had stablized. NU still needs the time to stablize, and get everything in the right ranks, before we do this.
(imo)
I don't think there's any need to divide up the ranks even more. Viability rankings are a rough guide on how good a Pokemon is in a given metagame, assuming minimal knowledge about the tier. It's a resource for newer players (and I guess older players who are more out of touch with the current metagame) to see at a glance what's good, what looks good but isn't, and what's just downright terrible. At a glance I don't need to know if a Pokemon is High-B or Low-B, I just need to know that in general, Pokemon X will perform quite well if you surround it with the right help on your team, but it shouldn't be just slapped on a team to patch a hole (which is a paraphrase of B-rank).
I would like to propose that Relicanth is moved to B-Rank. In many ways relicanth is comprable to carracosta, they have the same typing and similar movepools. While carracosta is better offensively with shell smash, relicanth is much bulkier and has access to the infamous rock head + head smash combination. While solid rock is also a good defensive ability, the 1.5 boost in power for the main attacking move is huge. Relicanth can do much more damage to neutral targets like exeggutor or ludicolo. While carracosta is usually a better choice relicanth has enough viability to earn himself a solid spot in the B rank. Relicanth will also undoubtely be compared to regirock, but water STAB for golurk and camerupt and powerful head smash give him merit.
I agree. The main reason relicanth was dropped because it was too slow and scarf electrics could easily KO him, but really they will be hard-pressed to switch because of how powerful head smash is. Earthquake and waterfall are amazing coverage moves since the hit the ground and fighting types resistent to HS for good damage. Relicanth really deserves B-Rank IMO.
I also back Relicanth for B rank. Head Smash has absurd power and Rock Head eliminating recoil is perfect. Good coverage moves are nice as well. Slap a Band onto this guy and watch it smash everything into the ground, even frail Fighting types resistant to it. Definitely B rank because it isnt for everybody, but played right and with the right support, it kills.
I've been running a Ninjask -> Relicanth baton pass core, and let me just say that it is one of the most ludicrously powerful 'mons I've seen in NU.
I've definitely seen him do the same (or close to it) in NU, though of course he has his weaknesses. (Grass moves, Throh, some electric types.)
Relicanth is an absolute nightmare on Trick Room teams, or when passed any sort of speed boost. Rock Polish is the move you use when you want to give the enemy with a grass move a free switch Attack boosts are just icing on the cake. B-rank's statement about needing team support to succeed (but being very very good with it) seems to apply.
Relicanth is an absolute nightmare on Trick Room teams, or when passed any sort of speed boost. Rock Polish is the move you use when you want to give the enemy with a grass move a free switch Attack boosts are just icing on the cake. B-rank's statement about needing team support to succeed (but being very very good with it) seems to apply.
Why would Relicanth be compared to Regirock? One is a wall while the other is a slow and easily revenged. If I'm comparing Relicanth to anything, it's Rampardos. The difference is, Rampardos is faster, much stronger, and has a way of getting around physical walls (Sheer Force Thunderbolt / Ice Beam). Mold Breaker is also better than Rock Head since Rampardos can just bust through things like Weezing, Probopass, etc.
Sure, Relicanth is "powerful". But the fact remains that it has a hard time switching into many things in this metagame without getting crippled. Once it's in, it can do a lot of damage if the opponent doesn't have a check to it (and I haven't even brought up Head Smash's shaky accuracy until now). Getting it onto the field is a large issue and is why it should remain C-rank. Nothing in the metagame has really changed for the better for Relicanth since it was originally ranked.
Also, I think Vigoroth should be dropped to C-rank. There are way too many Fighting-types in the tier right now that can hit it extremely hard, and it's hard pressed to find many opportunities to set up. In addition, there are a lot of Normal-types that Vigoroth has to compete for a slot with. I can't ever see myself using it as a Normal-type over Kanga, Tauros, Zangoose, or heck even Linoone, and as a Bulk Up user, I'd much rather use Scraggy since it can at least take on Jynx/bulky Psychic-types.
Scolipede is a new Pokemon that Relicanth absolutely massacres. Scolipede can't switch into Head Smash (or really even Earthquake), and Scolipede cannot 2HKO Bulky Attacker (252 atk/252 def) relicanth with any move. (without hazards at least) Not that that alone puts him in B-rank, but it is a very good thing.
252A/252D was not in the top 6 in usage stats for last month, and investments should either be made in HP/A, HP/D, or A/Speed. Jynx also kills relicanth with focus blast and scarf primeape almost kills relicanth with close combat, so those drops really didn't help, though it can come onto scoliopede that doesn't sub and fish for a head smash miss, even though waterfall would do the trick.
Nominating Pelipper for C-rank. It has a really good Water/Flying typing that lets it take on a lot of threats in NU. This includes the likes of Samurott, Ludicolo, Gorebyss, Golurk, Scolipede, Charizard, Gurdurr, and Piloswine. Its advantage over Mantine is the inclusion of Roost in its movepool, which is much more reliable than Rest + Sleep Talk. Pelipper's movepool also isn't that bad as it holds Hurricane to hit Water- and Grass-types hard and U-turn to gain momentum against opponents. U-turn is also great to hit Jynx as it comes in expecting to absorb a Scald. Its Flying-typing and good base 100 Defense also means that it can take Close Combat spam from the likes of Primeape and Sawk, without worrying about getting hit by an Ice Punch. (Does have to watch out for Stone Edge though) Overall Pelipper is a pretty solid Pokemon with a definite niche and deserves to, at the very least, not be E-rank.
I completely agree with the drop of Vigoroth. It's far too outclassed to be B rank, and it's not good right now. Therefore, Vigorous for C rank.
I agree with all of the proposed changes, but I also noticed that simisage is in B. What exactly does simisage have over serperior, besides a horrible niche in recycle (I tried a recycle leaf storm set once with a white herb. It was on a gimmick team of terrible gimmicks and it was still the worst.) and acrobatics?
I would propose simisage down to C, I am undoubtedly forgetting something, and it is still very much usable. JUst out-classed, in my opinion.
I would propose simisage down to C, I am undoubtedly forgetting something, and it is still very much usable. JUst out-classed, in my opinion.
Sub+3 Attacks is Simisage's ultimate ace in the hole. He can set up Subs in the face of some Pokemon such as Golurk, and when you get into Overgrow range, you can fire awfully powerful Giga Drains that can really hurt. Simisage is slower than Serp, but he's stronger and also has greater overall coverage. He has Focus Blast to smash at Steels and such, and overall can be really good. Simi really easily beats Haunter as well, so that's a plus. Simisage has an easy time getting subs up, and most people expect him to run NP so they will try and status him. Overall, Simisage is really good and warrants himself a B-Rank placement.
Zeb does a very good job at explaining.
I'd like to nominate Linoone for C-rank. It just isn't what it used to be anymore, it is very difficult to set up. Most of the best Pokemon in the metagame stop it easily. The new drops Scolipede, Primeape, and Jynx can all stop it from setting up. There are many bulky Pokemon that can easily tank a +6 espeed and OHKO in return (Piloswine, Musharna, Regirock). Not only that, but the rise of Kangakshan means that it can easily Fake Out and do ~30% to Linoone. Enough to finish it off if you didn't let it set up for free.
Linoone can sweep a frail offensive team if its given a free turn. But getting that free turn is almost impossible in this meta.
Linoone can sweep a frail offensive team if its given a free turn. But getting that free turn is almost impossible in this meta.
Those first two sentences are right on the money when it comes to Linoone, so I agree that Linoone should be C.
However, I disagree with some parts of your reasoning. About things like Musharna, Regirock, and Piloswine being able to tank an espeed and OHKO in return, Linoone is faster than all of them, so in any scenario, Linoone can fire off a Seed Bomb or Shadow Claw, doing ~70-80% to Regirock and Musharna and OHKOing Piloswine after Rocks (Adamant Ice Shard from Piloswine does ~30%). I know Linoone still loses in these situations, but it's not like Linoone is just completely walled and helpless.
As far as nearly impossible to set up, I think if you're running a Linoone it's a good idea to at least consider having another teammate help it set up. I've been using this:
Gardevoir @ Light Clay
Trait: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Memento
- Taunt
With just that, I've been able to safely Belly Drum (meaning Linoone doesn't die on the same turn it uses Belly Drum, of course) essentially every single time and probably going on 30 battles in a row. It might sound hard to believe that I've had that much success, but walls don't really like coming in on this thing because of Taunt, so my opponent's answer to it is an offensive Pokemon, of course. Then, clearly offensive Pokemon are shut down by dual screens and Memento. Obviously it's not foolproof, but it works really well for me.
-2 252+ Atk Skuntank Crunch vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Linoone through Reflect: 42-51 (13.68 - 16.61%) -- possible 7HKO
Of course the whole purpose of my Gardevoir is to help Linoone (and Gorebyss) set up, and I agree with you that it's very difficult for Linoone to set up, but yeah. You're completely right about Kanga too. Fake Out destroys Linoone.
Also, even at +6, Linoone just doesn't hit hard enough at times. Base 70 Attack sucks.
So it's been more than a week, can we just put that damn monster centipede in S-Rank now?
I disagree with this. The fact the three most common walls are now weezing alomomola and misdreavus might not help linoone (although weez and missy are easy to weaken and they have shitty recovery) but for what it is of offensive teams not letting it set up, every team usualy has at least one mon on which linoone can set up and he never had an easy time doing so without screens or memento support anyway. All has not been bad for linoone in the last tier shift. The 3 new offensive threats take huge damage from even an unboosted extremespeed and take a huge risk if they dare switch out. Teams with multiple checks to linoone are also usualy bad in the meta since it's impossible to wall all the offenisve threats of this meta. The fact it's also incredibly easy to set up hazards in this meta can also help linoone wreck defensive teams with belly drum or offensie teams with his unboosted extremespeed. The one thing that does bother me about linoone is the rise of fake out kangaskhan and the fact dual screeners are pretty bad with my favourite one (serperior) being nerfed by scoli's presence.
As an unboosted threat, linoone's extremespeed can serve in a similar purpose as kanga's fake out but is much more risky to switch out on. Once boosted, linoone does have to deal with regirock and alomomola but musharna is much less common now and missy and weezing can easily be weakened before the sweep. Linoone is still not amazing but I think it deserves it's b rank.
We've already explained that scolipede is broken
Just put it in S rank
Just put it in S rank
I completely agree with Sweet Jesus here. Aside from that, I don't see why such a threat like Linoone that is capable of sweeping through whole teams (hence its good matchup with Sun Offense) being on the same rank as several Pokemon that sees virtually no competitive usage, such as Electrode, Butterfree, Camerupt, and Grumpig, a concept that just doesn't really make sense to me.
If anything, we currently need to look at certain Pokemon that are in S-rank or A-rank, as they seem to be a bit too crowded for what the current metagame implies. I'm not really a fan of how that's turning out, since it basically encompases anything that has high offensive stats and a decent movepool, but doesn't necessarily take into account of the ability to switch in certain threats, speed tiers, typing, versatility, and most importantly, how all of these traits correlate to the Pokemon's overall effectiveness of the current metagame. With that being said, I totally agree that Jynx and Scolipede should be placed into the S-rank without hesitation, but this also leads me into questioning a few other Pokemon that are currently placed here, as I feel like some of them (not all obviously) just doesn't share the sheer level of power, brokenness, or just overall viability in the metagame as Jynx and Scolipede can claim.
Any thoughts?
If anything, we currently need to look at certain Pokemon that are in S-rank or A-rank, as they seem to be a bit too crowded for what the current metagame implies. I'm not really a fan of how that's turning out, since it basically encompases anything that has high offensive stats and a decent movepool, but doesn't necessarily take into account of the ability to switch in certain threats, speed tiers, typing, versatility, and most importantly, how all of these traits correlate to the Pokemon's overall effectiveness of the current metagame. With that being said, I totally agree that Jynx and Scolipede should be placed into the S-rank without hesitation, but this also leads me into questioning a few other Pokemon that are currently placed here, as I feel like some of them (not all obviously) just doesn't share the sheer level of power, brokenness, or just overall viability in the metagame as Jynx and Scolipede can claim.
Any thoughts?
No. Nothing has been explained to be "broken", and even after a little over a week with this new meta there's no way anyone would be experienced enough to determine that. This is opting out of an actual discussion we can have; why would you want to do that? :(
i think sawk, musharna, and gardevoir should be moved out of s rank.
sawk has serious competition with primeape and doesn't really accomplish anything that it doesn't. being locked into close combat is really dangerous and can let scolipede set up which is never good.
musharna can't really keep up with the fast paced nature of this metagame and can't completely counter the top fighting-type in primeape. scolipede destroys it with some prior damage so it can't claim to be able to take hits from all the top physical threats anymore.
gardevoir is directly outclassed by jynx when it comes to lo 3 attacks and choice sets. the only saving grace it has is the support set and that is not effective at all in this metagame.
sawk has serious competition with primeape and doesn't really accomplish anything that it doesn't. being locked into close combat is really dangerous and can let scolipede set up which is never good.
musharna can't really keep up with the fast paced nature of this metagame and can't completely counter the top fighting-type in primeape. scolipede destroys it with some prior damage so it can't claim to be able to take hits from all the top physical threats anymore.
gardevoir is directly outclassed by jynx when it comes to lo 3 attacks and choice sets. the only saving grace it has is the support set and that is not effective at all in this metagame.
I actually haven't found Scholipede to be that good. Prehaps I am only see noobs play against it, but I have never been terrified of Scholipede. Scholipede can't get spikes up at the start, thanks to the rock weakness (one layer of spikes, but still), and its attacking sets are beaten by faster Choice Scarfers, like Rapidash, or even Primeape.
I would say A Rank if anything, I juts haven't been impressed by Scholipede
I agree that Sawk and Gradevoir should move down. Musharna however can still wall a lot of the meta.
- Status