Gen 2 Offensive GSC OU team, looking for help

[zarator]

Hello everyone, I recently got back into GSC OU with a freshly made team, and I was wondering if you could help me improve it (note: all mons carry Leftovers, so I'll only indicate movesets)

- Earthquake
- Lovely Kiss
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

One of my favourite leads. Wins a lot of matchups (altho Lovely Kiss's 75% accuracy sometimes screws me up), and stays useful throughout the match as a versatile mixed sweeper. It's also a useful pivot, thanks to its Electric-type immunity and useful set of resistances (including Bug, Rock, and Fighting). The few lead matchups it loses to are ones I can usually switch into, such as Zapdos.

- Sleep Powder
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Explosion

Exeggutor brings a lot to the team. First of all, it's one of my two switches into Earthquakes, which hit half my team supereffectively, so that's really important. Sleep Powder is useful for when Nidoking fails to put something asleep early on. Psychic is Exeggutor's obligatory STAB, and allows it to check a lot of otherwise troublesome mons. Hidden Power [Fire] is mainly here for Skarmory, which might try to soak my Explosion and also walls a few other team mates. And finally, Explosion almost always takes out something relevant (usually Snorlax or an Electric-type).

- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast
- Pursuit
- Dynamicpunch

Tyranitar is mainly there to take care of Exeggutor and Gengar, while posing a moderate threat to everything else. It's also one of my go-to switches into Skarmory early on. The moveset maximizes Ttar's wallbreaking capabilities and, while relying on DPunch is not always a great idea, it makes sure neither Miltank nor Snorlax can have a field day with this.

- Double-edge
- Fire Blast
- Curse
- Rest

With Gengar being taken care of by Tyranitar and Rhydon being checked by Exeggutor, I am free to run Fire Blast to prevent Skarmory from walling me, as well as obliterating any Forretress thinking I'm set up bait. I used to forego Rest and Curse for EQ and Self-destruct, but that made me a bit too weak to repeated HP Ice Zapdos and Starmie switch ins.

- Explosion
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Dynamicpunch

Since my team has quite a few issues with mono-attacking Miltank, as well as being overall slow, I decided to employ Gengar as a tactical revenge killer and check to several threats. It rarely fails to kill or cripple something throughout the match, and with Exeggutor often blasting away their Raikou/Zapdos or Snorlax, Gengar becomes even more dangerous. It also helps that a common Gengar switch-in, such as Starmie, is easy set up bait for Snorlax

- Megahorn
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

For the last slot, I felt I needed a secondary answer to Earthquake users, as Exeggutor is prone to getting worn out fairly fast without Giga Drain. I also needed something which wasn't too easily walled, as my team is offensive but lacks Spikes, so I can't allow too many safe switch-ins. This is how I eventually set on Heracross. While Skarmory still walls this to hell and back, I have many ways to lure out and kill Skarmory earlier on, and I try to keep Heracross hidden until I can either take Skarm out or rule it out anyway. Megahorn is Heracross's main STAB and packs an incredible punch (it can 2HKO most things not resisting it, and even 3HKOes the likes of Rhydon), while HP Rock is a clean 3HKO on Zapdos. Rest and Sleep Talk help keeping Heracross alive, while lessening the burden on Megahorn's meager 16 PPs.


Here's my threatlist (copied from a Smogon article about GSC OU threats), color-coded for your own convenience (black: forgettable threat; orange: mild threat; red: major threat):

Snorlax and Heracross can switch in and force Blissey out all day, while the only mons she actually walls (Gengar and Exeggutor) can blow her up in a pinch. I never had any issue with Blissey so far.

I don't have a lot of experience with Zard, but it cannot really set up Belly Drum on anything on my team. And if it manages to, Gengar can outspeed and finish it off with Explosion or Thunderbolt. At worst, I might lose a mon to prevent it from setting up, but that's about it.

If it's in the lead position, I can put it to sleep with Nidoking. However, if it is not, it does get a few opportunities to switch in and set up Spikes. My only mostly safe switch in is Gengar, so sometimes I do get in trouble with this, but not too often.

Tyranitar can stop this cold and trap it with Pursuit, but if it comes out in the lategame, with Ttar gone, I generally face a clean sweep. Thankfully, it does not seem to be particularly common.

If it lacks Giga Drain, Tyranitar can trap it with Pursuit. If it lacks Hidden Power Fire, my own Exeggutor can wall it and force it to explode. Sometimes I might lose one mon to it, but otherwise it's not much of a threat.

If it's a lead, Nidoking puts it to sleep and either hurts it with TBolt or switches to a proper counter (anything with a Fire move will do). If it's not a lead, generally it ends up switching into Exeggutor or Snorlax and gets OHKOed - although in the latter case, it often manages to at least set up Spikes.

I honestly can't imagine a team which is fully safe against this thing - at least not until its moveset is known. However, generally I fare relatively well against it. Tyranitar might get hit hard by Dynamicpunch, but otherwise can switch in and trap it with Pursuit. Exeggutor might be able to switch into TBolt, stomach an Ice Punch and finish it off with Psychic if it suffered some prior damage. Nidoking can basically do the same, and Heracross can somewhat wall it and wear it down with HP Rock. Explosion and DBond however need some prediction, but that's to be expected.

A well played Heracross can make my team cry. With Megahorn and Earthquake, it can destroy almost my entire team (except my own Heracross, who can't do much back). Only Gengar outspeeds it, but it cannot OHKO it without Exploding. Generally I manage to wear it down on switch ins or blow it up outright, but it's a dangerous threat nonetheless.

Nidoking and Snorlax are somewhat safe switch ins. Even if it manages to BP to something like Marowak, I generally lose not more than one Pokemon to the chain.

Heracross can soak up the sleep, while Snorlax does not take much from Earthquake and is free to set up Curse. It can come for free on Ttar, but Exeggutor can nail it on the switch, and Gengar outspeeds and mauls it with Ice Punch or Explosion.

If it lacks HP Bug, Exeggutor walls it. If it has HP Bug, it means it either lacks Curse or Rest, in which case Heracross is a safe switch in. It can get a bit more dangerous if either counter is gone, but Gengar and Nidoking can stop it in a pinch.

If it has HP Bug, Heracross is my best switch in. If it lacks it, Exeggutor works too. It can get a bit dangerous with a +2 Speed BPed to it, but otherwise I can handle it.

The typical Heal Bell/Body Slam/Milk Drink/Growl set is stopped cold by Gengar, and I can make it run out of Milk Drinks eventually. If it lacks any of the four moves above, something else on my team becomes a safe switch in - typically Snorlax or Heracross. At worst, it can make my Ttar or Snorlax slightly less effective throughout the match, but otherwise it's only annoying at best.

I honestly have no experience with the Perish trapper set, but I guess it can probably trap and kill at least one of my mons before Ttar comes in to stop it. However, if it manages to come out unscathed and get rdy to switch back (it IS quite bulky from the special side), things could turn sour. Thankfully, it's not common.

Ttar is generally my go-to switch until I figure out its coverage moves. Then, I generally deal with it either via Ttar itself, or with Heracross/Gengar

It doesn't have much to wall on this team besides Gengar, and Snorlax is a fairly safe switch in

Its EQ is surprisingly powerful. Hopefully I still have Exeggutor and Heracross around when this thing shows up. Thankfully (somewhat), the fact both Ttar and Snorlax invite it to come in means I get to know its presence way before the need to sacrifice either of my Ground resists comes up.

If Heracross is to be of any use, this bird needs to go. Thankfully, many of my mons can lure out and kill it - often before I even get to reveal my own Heracross. Never had too many issues with this, as even if I fail to nail it with Fire Blast/HP Fire, repeated switches force it to Rest eventually.

Depending on the moveset, this thing may be either a joke or a dangerous threat. Mono-attacking sets and Normal/Fire sets are stopped cold by Gengar. The typical Normal/Ground Curselax, on the other hand, can become pretty damn dangerous. I often try to harass it with Dynamicpunches, wearing it down until any of my mons can revenge kill it. It's not uncommon for me to have to blow it up with an Exploder.

As long as my Snorlax is alive and well, this thing is annoying at best. Depending on its coverage moves, either Exeggutor or Heracross can switch in as well, altho the former can't do much besides putting it to sleep or blowing it up.

I generally deal with it the same way I would with Rhydon, except that its Fire weakness means both Ttar and Snorlax can fight back. I often end up losing a mon to its Explosion, but that's about it.

This thing isn't that dangerous in itself, but it often gets Spikes support, which can turn it into a monster. If I sense danger, I often end up blowing it up, but it does come down to some prediction. Thankfully, due to the offensive presence of my team, most members of my squad can still 3HKO it.

Many of my mons have issues with Ttar, unfortunately. Snorlax is walled, and Gengar/Exeggutor can be trapped and killed. Heracross is a somewhat safe switch-in, but Pursuit means that this alone is often not enough to neutralize it.

Heracross can switch in all day, and depending on its moveset, Snorlax or Gengar might be acceptable switch ins as well. Mean Look BP may be a problem, but since my team is mostly offensive, I'm not that concerned.

This thing is not to be trifled with. Whether it has Ice Beam (negating Exeggutor a free switch) or Acid Armor (making Snorlax and Heracross much less than safe switch ins, and allowing it to survive an Explosion), Vaporeon can pose a significant threat to my squad if I don't put it out of commission fast.

As long as Snorlax is around, Zapdos is not too dangerous. Nidoking can pivot into Thunderbolts in a pinch, and can fight back with Ice Beam. Either Gengar or Exeggutor can blow it up as well.

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That's about it. If you have any suggestions which can improve this squad without opening me to many other threats, I'm all ears^^

 

[Jorgen]

Spikes + Zapdos is scarier to you than you think. It out speeds everything sans Gengar, and the only poke to not get 3HKOed (Lax) will be asleep all the time due to all the thunders it has to sponge.

Most Lax sets are also super dangerous for you. Without Hypnosis, Gengar is ill suited to stall out Laxs sleep turns, which means that non eq lax can't easily be frozen. Also don't underestimate the insidious power/burn threat of a fire lax against a poke like Gengar that can't really do much back.

You have no phazer, so missy and Umbreon can have a field day with your team. Smeargle too really; he can afford to spore an exploder and pass to Wak, which you simply don't have a great answer for even without agi pass (egg is ohkoed by hp bug, heracross doesn't do enough damage to necessarily force out a +2 wak; all it has to do is wait for you to rely on sleep talk to hit megahorns and it can go pretty crazy).

A couple changes I suggest:
1) swap out heracross for Zapdos. Zapper shores up vap weaknesses a little more reliably (AA is a wasted turn on it) and also more reliably takes sleep from opposing Egg.

2) roar over dpunch on ttar. You get a much more reliable way of dealing with +1 lax you switch into, plus you have recourse against umb and missy.

3) consider swapping out Gengar for a cloy to play the spikes game a little and to better defend against marowaks. Gengar I perceive as perhaps the most expendable team member; it's redundant with and less effective than ttar against fire lax and most of its explosion targets are also baited by cloy/egg.

4) Consider some other secondary lax checks / secondary ways to slow down lax. Perhaps a mono st lax of your own to beat all coverage curselax in a curse war (also solves the "asleep all the time" problem against thunders + spikes and also shores up any possible tenta weaknesses arising from removing gengar). Maybe seed egg to come in on eq lax without needing to explode immediately (also helps with vap and sleeping something other than zapper!) Perhaps even reflect Zapdos if you run st lax to better buffer your pokes against physical hits / explosions in general.

One potential problem remaining after all this is zard getting in on egg. Not sure you can afford to be too scared of that though; you gotta tread lightly with non-drain eggs in case of ttar anyway, and the rest of your team doesn't give it a great opening to sweep.

Also I presume fire punch on ttar is meant to be fire blast? Remember there's no physical fire moves this gen ;)

 

[zarator]

Thanks Jorgen for your post. First of all yes, I'm using Fire Blast, not sure why I wrote Fire Punch (I was also writing TPunch on Gengar for w/e reason).

1) I agree with you that, atm, Gengar is the most expendable team player, so I'm not opposed to switching it with Cloyster. From what you're saying, I'm assuming you're suggesting a Surf/Explosion/Spikes/filler rather than one with Rest or Rapid Spin, right?

2) I was first wary of swapping out Heracross for Zapdos because I felt it'd make me weaker to Rhydon, but if I'm also putting Cloyster onto the team, perhaps it's not as bad? Maybe I could go HP Water over Ice, since with Ttar I already got some insurance vs Exeggutor. Also I'd assume Thunder is better with Spikes support?

3) Roar over DPunch is something I initially didn't consider because I lacked Spikes, but with the addition of Cloyster it would be a different story. I'll definitely try it out.

4) With Heracross out of the team, I no longer have much reason to run Fire Blast on Snorlax, so I have several different choices. One is, as you mentioned, running Sleep Talk (as Zapdos can force Skarmory out with ease, without suffering Spikes dmg). Earthquake might also be a possibility if Gengar turns out to be a problem (altho so far it hasn't, so perhaps it's not).

5) I agree with you about Zard - besides, Zapdos can speed tie and revenge kill it.

However, even with the changes you suggested, it seems I still remain a bit vulnerable to Spikes + Zapdos right?

 

[eden]

Hey just thought I'd drop a rate.

Your lead here is a Nidoking, which automatically doesn't really buffer you versus stuff like Zapdos/Raikou very much. Which basically means that Snorlax is potentially your primary switch in to Raikou/Zapdos with Spikes down. Which as has been mentioned before will put a lot of pressure on you.

Further your team is playing a mixed pace game, with an offensive lead like Nidoking and no Spikes, no Zapdos/Raikou to exploit. I also think Heracross/Gengar are potentially the odd ones out on this team to an extent. Raikou would fit over Heracross really nicely and covers all of the same stuff except Machamp, Zapdos can also fit there nicely. As it stands though your current play vs Zapdos, is relying on getting it asleep i guess? Or possibly luring it with Exeggutor and Exploding on it.

You probably can try Zapdos>Heracross which works out nicely, is a much better sleep absorber; along with something like Vaporeon>Gengar maybe, which can also capitalise off a dead Zapdos via an explosion from Egg and/or Zap being unhealthy+asleep. And it also makes sure you don't basically flail versus opposing CurseLax(EQ curse lax with no spikes and no way to offensively pressure it like Machamp/Zapdos is irritating, nidoking can also harass it but spikes is needed). Acid Armor Vaporeon probably works nicely.

Nidoking/Zapdos/Egg/Lax/TTar/Vaporeon sounds like a cool team to me, and if you want to have some offensive momentum of your own, potentially try out Stun Spore Egg+something like LK BD Lax which along with Pursuit Lax gives you a good source of offence. Wanna note that now that Heracross is gone, running CroLax with Pursuit support also sounds quite nice, and shores you up vs electrics a little better and stops you being defenceless during rest cycles.

Edit: Wanted to note that you could opt to run double electrics with, Raikou and Zapdos if you felt the need to test.

Cloyster is also another option obviously to let you have spikes, but i figure having another route to win is pretty cool as well. I hope this team works out!

 

[zarator]

SunnyORAS thank you for your rating. I did replace Heracross with Zapdos and Cloyster over Gengar, as well as going with mono-attack Curselax instead of my previous set. It's working quite well - most battles are decided by gameplay rather than matchups, which is nice. The only problem is that Skarmory now is a bit more of a nuisance (it still is a free switch in for Tyranitar and Zapdos, and I can lure it with Eggy, but it does wall hard my Snorlax), but I can live with that. Also, Machamp can be quite a risky matchup now, but since it generally lacks either Rock Slide (making Zapdos safe), Hidden Power Bug (making Eggy safe), or Rest (which means I can wear it out eventually), it's not a huge worry.

To be honest I'm not a big fan of double Electric, and I don't see it helping me in any way - other than maybe giving me a slightly easier time vs Zapdos (and even then, I absolutely need to win the Spikes war for this to be a feasible answer, as Raikou is more easily forced out than Snorlax). Also I did use Vaporeon in the past, and it's great, but it also relies a lot on me taking out Zapdos AND Raikou in time. Also, while I personally don't like double Electric, it seems to be fairly popular, so relying on Vappy can cripple me vs some teams.

EDIT: Ah btw, I've also replace Sleep Powder on Eggy with Giga Drain, and it's working quite well so far.

 

[eden]

Hey! Good to hear that my suggestions helped.

Double electric is something that creates an awkward match up versus offenses that try to Explode on Zapdos or Raikou, and then try to exploit said holes via things like Vaporeon, Machamp and stuff. Vaporeon basically just creates terrible match up for teams that play really slowly, and I think both the Acid Armor variant as well as the Rest Talk variant are great in their own way. Machamp is handled by Exeggutor, Zapdos, Nidoking nicely enough. Being able to play the spike game is nice as well. Also considering that CurseLax is probably your main method of forcing an opponents hand have you considered trying Body Slam? Versus stall if you can get Suicune out of the way, Body Slam can quite easily screw over stuff like Growl Tank. Another thing you can potentially try is HP:Fire Exeggutor to try and pressure Stanmore, to clear the way for your Snorlax. Looks fun, hope to hear some more about how it goes!

 

[zarator]

SunnyORAS I always preferred Double-edge on Snorlax as it makes it easier to break through Zapdos/Raikou and opposing Lax, Miltank is annoying but not as much. Also, I am indeed using HP Fire eggy, and it works well^^

 

[eden]

Hey another thing that hit me, what does your squad seek to do versus opposing curse lax? you can seek to mirror match non rest/talk laxes but that's not exactly an answer. the changes/team in general seems to have trouble with lax if/when it gets going. Slam/EQ Lax in particular seems to be a problem, unless I'm missing something. You're ok vs normal/fire lax coverage atm, but vs EQ/Slam your current plan seems to be booming on it and/or going for a mirror.

I'm testing a really similar team with Nidoking/Zapdos/Cloyster/Lax/Tar/Champ and Roar Tar w/ Pursuit seems to be working decently so far. just a thought! Champ over Egg gives me a semi-reliable way to constantly threaten opposing lax/ttar which is something you might also wanna look into. opens you up defensively to a few things though, since machamp obviously doesn't play the defensive side of the game as well as egg, but can help you exploit spikes/give you another way to force wins.

An interesting thing you can experiment with, is possibly not leading with an electric; and instead trying out lead snorlax, and possibly trying to get a better sleep with nidoking by either booming on zap/kou early or something

 

[zarator]

If it is Body Slam/EQ Snorlax, I generally try to force it to Rest as soon as possible, then Curse-race it. As for Exeggutor, I could consider dropping it, but it would make me weaker to EQ/Rock Slide users (especially Rhydon). I mean sure, Zapdos can switch in and force it out, but it becomes much more prediction based. Then again, I'll admit Ttar seems to be more common

 

[eden]

Have you considered running a niche option like Umbreon instead of Tyranitar? Toxic from cloyster+pursuit from Umbreon would harass starmie and generally let you keep spikes while charm from Umbreon helps the eq lax problem. Bd lax I think is relatively easier for you to take on considering that it is usually found on hard stall desperate for an easy source of offense, and the fact that you have spikes+nido+thunder zapdos as well as two explosions in case things go wrong make me think it could work? I agree that a lot of offense seems to end up trying to trade with curse lax via explosion at times, especially when you don't have stuff that can force it out immediately via a double.

 

[zarator]

I feel Umbreon is too slow for this team, especially since I don't have a Heal Bell user like Miltank to pair it with