Official Tier List Discussion

[Matt]

The current tier system is very inconsistent, in that it seems to switch from power (uber) to usage (OU) back to power (BL vs UU). Since people don't seem to want to play the "uber" metagame, I think a tier system completely based on power is the most sensible. Just decide on arbitrary cut off points for base stats (perhaps also taking in to account typing and move pool) and go from there. It doesn't matter if something with low base stats is very used, or if something with high base stats isn't. Presumably, the reason for their usage is because of some other flaw, so things should balance themselves. There can always be slight exceptions to this if there truly is a case of a Pokemon being ridiculously broken in a power tier.

This also seems kind of funny from me, since in the past I supported things like banning HP Legends and Celebi. I really wouldn't mind seeing the tier system redone from scratch at this point, though.

Also, Wobbuffet needs actual testing, and Garchomp definitely shouldn't be banned just because it has a trait that uses evasion, since evasion needs actual testing as well! It's amusing to see talks of Garchomp being banned while Deoxys-E is starting to be considered OU. The tournament's just begun, but the consensus on ShoddyBattle from people who have been testing their teams is that all Deoxys-E has going for it is speed, and that being reasonably sturdy is enough to counter it.

 

[Mr.E]

that warstory

I don't think it proves Wobbuffet is still broken in itself, but it shows us that Wobbuffet is probably not much different than it was in ADV. Sure, you get "free turns" all the time in the course of a regular battle, but Wobbuffet guarantees it every time it switches in and is still virtually guaranteed a kill on its own. The only thing that changed from Advance is that Wob/Wob doesn't cause an instant stalemate, but outside of that it's just as broken as it was before.

The current tier system is very inconsistent, in that it seems to switch from power (uber) to usage (OU) back to power (BL vs UU).

I think of it more like this; the tier system is based on usage. The most used pokémon are OU, the rest are UU. (Then NU which is basically just a sub-set of all the crappy UU pokémon and not a true tier in itself.) Then we look through the OU and UU lists and pick out the ones that are "too powerful" for them, placing them in Ubers and BL respectively.

That is to say: The tiers are (or are supposed to be) based on usage, then we tweak them based on power. It's not an equal relationship. The real problem is that power is subjective. It's not a huge issue for OU play, unless you want to consider Deoxys-E, but trying to decide what is "too" strong for UU is a quandary.

And Evasion is garbage. With regard to Garchomp, do note Sand Stream gives it an effective +1 evasion (slightly less I think, but all the same significant) without losing a turn to use it or losing a move slot to DT. This does require the assistance of Hippowdon or T-Tar, but since they're both strong pokémon on their own and can even be on your opponent's team that's not much of a requirement for utilizing its Sand Veil.

Garchomp isn't necessarily too powerful on its own. Its power is a function of how ridiculous Sand Stream is ("trait" weather effects should probably only last as long as the respective move), the lack of other permanent weather changers able to remove it, plus the ridiculous state of Dragon attacks in general (only one resistance, Meteor and Outrage have huge base powers with drawbacks not significant enough to discourage their abuse). Throw 'em together, add in a free 20% evasion through its trait and Garchomp is now extremely strong. Too strong? Perhaps, perhaps not.

 

[X-Act]

The current tier system is very inconsistent, in that it seems to switch from power (uber) to usage (OU) back to power (BL vs UU). Since people don't seem to want to play the "uber" metagame, I think a tier system completely based on power is the most sensible. Just decide on arbitrary cut off points for base stats (perhaps also taking in to account typing and move pool) and go from there. It doesn't matter if something with low base stats is very used, or if something with high base stats isn't. Presumably, the reason for their usage is because of some other flaw, so things should balance themselves. There can always be slight exceptions to this if there truly is a case of a Pokemon being ridiculously broken in a power tier.

I was considering this, but there are many things besides base stats (which are not a good way to see if a Pokemon is good or not anyway, seeing as they are deceptive as per my latest article) that make or break a Pokemon. Typing, movepool and abilities are also factors.

I was actually trying to find a formula that gives an overall rating of a Pokemon from its normalised base stats (as per my latest article again), but I'm finding it difficult to give a mathematical significance to the speed stat. However, even if I manage to find a way to incorporate Speed in the formula, it would still be a bad way to judge a Pokemon. As Flareon would tell you, it's useless to have 130 base attack when your most powerful STAB attack has 65 base power, for example. Also, your argument would make Mew as good as Shaymin, which it obviously isn't. The 'flaws' that you mention are either related to typing (Spiritomb vs. Bastiodon), movepool (Flareon vs. Smeargle), or ability (Regigigas vs. Shedinja), which are extremely hard to quantify (even though I'll try ).

Also, Wobbuffet needs actual testing, and Garchomp definitely shouldn't be banned just because it has a trait that uses evasion, since evasion needs actual testing as well! It's amusing to see talks of Garchomp being banned while Deoxys-E is starting to be considered OU. The tournament's just begun, but the consensus on ShoddyBattle from people who have been testing their teams is that all Deoxys-E has going for it is speed, and that being reasonably sturdy is enough to counter it.

I fully support this point, on the other hand.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Wobbuffet is definitely worse than it was in adv. Stuff like physical Crunch, Stone Edge replacing Rock Slide, and Choice Specs means that it's generally easier to score that 2HKO on Wobbuffet. Anything with U-turn has a good answer to Wobbuffet. Shed Shell, while not really good in general, is a problem for Wobbuffet (there are a few Shed Shell Skarmory running around still). Taunt is improved which Wobbuffet doesn't like at all. Toxic Spikes are beyond ruinous for Wobbuffet; it can't come in to do its job at all while those are down. Togekiss's flinching doesn't work less well on Wobbuffet than it does on anything else. Spiritomb is a much better Pokemon than Sableye, and he's immune to Wobbuffet. Dusknoir is better than Dusclops was and might as well be immune to Wobbuffet.

What this means for Wobbuffet is that the number of times it can come in has gone down and the number of Pokemon on any given team that Wobbuffet beats is lower. The logic of "you can't counter him because you can't switch" has moved a lot farther toward the Dugtrio case of "it will have trouble coming in and doing its job to the point where it's not broken". Whether it's actually there is reasonably disputable. I've used it for a while on Shoddy Battle and feel that it's a very good Pokemon but not really broken. I would certainly advocate more rigorous testing in the future, but right now I'm mostly focused on seeing through the Deoxys-e testing. I'd like to say that it should be unbanned now on the principle of not banning things that just might be broken when we're not sure, but I doubt that train of thought is very popular.