Tournament OLT IV Discussion Thread

[Sabella]

So after laddering all 4 cycles of OLT and finally making it in the last one with like 50 seconds left I wanted to share my thoughts on the ladder environment and the teams i used during this. I have been keeping up with the SM metagame since its release although up until recently i didnt really find it enjoyable at all and it still seems a bit wild at the moment with magearna and dugtrio being so polarizing. Going into the tournament i hadnt been playing much SM at all so it took me a little while to get comfortable with a style I could use and also be consistent on ladder with. During cycle 1 and all the other cycles i breezed through low ladder with rejuvenated bird spam xtra, empo and myself had all been toying with but when it got to 1800+ i started to hit road blocks. I questioned p2 about his ditto team and eventually made my own which can be seen above. This i used for all cycle 2 and most of cycle 3 but i always felt like I struggled with stall a bit to much keep using despite meeps already qualifying with it. So at the start of cycle 4 I was really unsure of what i wanted to use, I was thinking about using a reuniclus team but he was just so inconsistent so i asked leftiez for a team and thats when a light went off in my head about what i would use for this cycle. He had given me this pinsir bulky offense with darkinium kartana which i hadnt seen before so I used those two pokes to essentially recreate Cieles Pinsir stall from last gen. Here is the final version of them team

This was by far my most consistent team for the tournament having good match up vs fat, offense and stall. The concept was to have Kartana break for pinsir so that i could run sub on the final slot for pinsir so I could easily beat whirlwind less stalls by subbing on skarm with Pinsir and just sding to max and sweeping. With this team having 3 removal options i opted only for one which was on exca. I figured fast 3 attacks zapdos would fit better to help pinsir and exca out as well and it proved to be that exact case. After laddering for a good month I started to realize that these type of chansey offenses are actually pretty solid teams if you put good supporting characters around them. It eases alot of room for prediction since chansey is so hard to kill in one shot espcially with the decrease in fighting types this gen. Being able to function as a rocker and t wave spammer while effectively stopping all magearnas and greninjas really helped alot over the course of my run. I dont think anyone was really using this team besides me this cycle even though i wasnt shy about giving the team out, but similar to the medicham stall this team might not be super easy to use so give it a few games before playing any serious games with it

http://pokepast.es/dd14bd5f07cbf2bf

 

[robopoke]

I faced Sabellas team twice I think and his team is really really nasty. You usually expect Zapdos to be the Defogger because of that Mega Pinsir so you think something like Zygarde can setup on it after confiming it has Heat Wave but then it suddenly reveals HP Ice and you are screwed. I really love these teams with multiple potential Defoggers, just as much as I like teams with multiple potential Stealth Rockers. It screws up the gameplan of any opponent and makes it much easier to catch them offguard.

I just wanna know why Darkinium Z Kartana. I discussed this with someone else and the only reason I can think of is luring Mew while still hitting the targets you would use Fightinium for hard (Scizor, Steela, Skarmory) but is something like Z-Giga Impact not better to lure Zapdos for Pinsir for example or standard Fightinium to weaken Steelas and Whirlwind Skarmorys better? Mew as an opposing Defogger gets Twaved by Chansey and Clef is there to absorb Wisps so I do not fully understand the need for that move. Pinsir can also Sub on Mew trying to Wisp. Z-Leafblade is also almost as strong as Z-Night Slash against Mew.

 

[Ktütverde]

Just saw Ojama posted a screenshot of my M-Lati team that michy47 used to get to top8 (and finally being kicked out while he was sleeping, deadlines.. :'( )

To me the team is bad (but I'm unlucky with my teams) and I almost got no one win with it but Michy told me it was good af, so I feel it deserves a little post here, if ever someone wants to use it, improve it or just have a look at. It's based around the worst pokemon in OU (at least to me) stored power mega Latias, which actually needs such support that it often never sweeps.

https://pokepast.es/a360980f5b3bd203

Description:
It's mainly effective against fat balances using toxapex heatran ferro etc, and usually autowins vs every rain variant with clean lati sweeps (and clefa too). Trick room is manageable thanks to my Nihilego set featuring toxic spikes+Protect Lando (spread by Michy for bisharp). WateriumZ greninja provides a wincon, fast attacker and spikes +flexibility. Finally you have Scarf Nihilego 2attacks+2supports which u can use differently depending on the MU: T-wave+T-spikes vs everything that isn't HO, scarf STABS vs fast pinsirs teams or koko. T-wave is especially good as a ferrothorn/celesteela lure which miss attacks and provide free Latias boosts. Landorus isn't very useful but it's intimidate +switches allows Lati/clefa to tank hits and set up.

The Wincon are Toxic Spikes, which allow latias to SubSubRecoverSub when it cannot set up while putting foes in +1 or +2 stored power range (hard to set up further). Softboiled spam with clefa+ T-spikes is rly effective too vs rain teams.

Shoutouts: - michy47 doing the OLT together was really fun, you were the one who tried to make work Stored M-Lati and made my team shine, thanks so much:)
- you guys who asked me the team and often didn't get it, I rly believed (and maybe still believe) it was not a good idea to try to qualify with it, the team looks good but I can see the limits of my own builds. I hope u didn't think I was selfish lol
- all the OLT players, despite being cancer ladder during OLT features real competition and makes you build solid and consistent teams! Don't forget this
part of the so much hated OLT :)

I hope this post will contribute to the community and grats to all of you ! If sby manages to sweep 2 games in a row with Stored Mlati tell me ._.

 

[Sabella]

I faced Sabellas team twice I think and his team is really really nasty. You usually expect Zapdos to be the Defogger because of that Mega Pinsir so you think something like Zygarde can setup on it after confiming it has Heat Wave but then it suddenly reveals HP Ice and you are screwed. I really love these teams with multiple potential Defoggers, just as much as I like teams with multiple potential Stealth Rockers. It screws up the gameplan of any opponent and makes it much easier to catch them offguard.

I just wanna know why Darkinium Z Kartana. I discussed this with someone else and the only reason I can think of is luring Mew while still hitting the targets you would use Fightinium for hard (Scizor, Steela, Skarmory) but is something like Z-Giga Impact not better to lure Zapdos for Pinsir for example or standard Fightinium to weaken Steelas and Whirlwind Skarmorys better? Mew as an opposing Defogger gets Twaved by Chansey and Clef is there to absorb Wisps so I do not fully understand the need for that move. Pinsir can also Sub on Mew trying to Wisp. Z-Leafblade is also almost as strong as Z-Night Slash against Mew.

Z dark was to hit zapdos nd maro nd just have overall general neutral coverage against a chipped celesteela etc.

 

[smogonModsAreTrash]

Where can I see replays for OLT games? This is slightly unrelated, but I also want to see smogonTour replays because it's by far the best way to improve as a player: watching the best play in the most recent meta. You see the teams, different creative sets (so many get greedy and run stuff like 176 HP 252 SpA modest Tapu Lele which would be garbo in many cases but is smart because good players don't leave stuff in on Lele and expect others to not leave lele on stuff its outsped by), and most importantly top players actually battling to the best of their ability (and their friends in terms of teambuilding/scouting but never ghosting of course-we have standards)

 

[Cdumas]

Hey I just wanted to use this thread as an opportunity to thank Gondra for the team he gave me and post it since he allowed me to. He came to me a few days before deadline and I basically only spammed that team from there (besides a few stalls too). To qualify for olt i believe you need time, some skill, but above all a really consistent team you can rely on and trust even after a loss, that’s definitely what you gave me here so props to you fren

Anyway moving on to the team :

It's an HO that features some basic mons such as Excadrill and Mimikyu but also a cool wincon in Victini, at first i didnt really expect it to put in work but i actually cleaned most of my games with this mon. You have a standard lead in Excadrill that you will lead w most of the time, then MGyara + Victini forms a really fearful sweeper-core, Victini was great because people didnt expect the set which offered free setup opportunities, but basically Gyarados attracts Victini fooders such as Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Fini, Magearna, Scarf Lele, Scarf Kyub which is the key of the team (whereas Gyarados can setup on Shuriken Greninja for instance). I believe MGyarados was in almost every HO this cycle and this makes sense considering how well it can beat stall, you just have to taunt Toxic users + avoid Scald burns from Pex/Quagsire. Also the designated Ash-Gren check here ._. Psychic Terrain + Victini is super smart, not only do you oko stuff such as Garchomp and Kyurem but you also protect yourself from Shuriken and other prios

Lele serves as the main straight-forward breaker, specs hits so hard and is the best tool to pressure bulky stuff like Scizor since you can get a kill if you predict right. Kartana already became popular the past cycles, its great speedtier allows it to perform as the main wincon vs the other HO teams found on the ladder. Finally Mimikyu is an HO staple, it can pressure balanced or stall teams lacking unaware, as well as checking many HO mons for instance Dragonite, Magearna and Zygarde.

Some matchups are obviously not auto-pilot, especially when you play ten times the same match up you want to improve so i believe :

- Vs rain you probably wanna pressure w Lele early before getting up plops, especially if they lead w Peli

- Sr Chomp is a big nuisance, i think the play is to lead and apply pressure w mimikyu (quoting Empo there, this served me a lot lol) because you will obviously lose 1v1 if you try with Drill. Same can be said about Lando + Ferro, i guess lead Lele then.

- Vs Stall I always get up rocks vs Dug, then go Mimikyu and SD (to prevent defog from skarm and force clef in), after a few pivots with Victini you try to get Gyarados vs Skarmory or Chansey and start breaking (it's just "burst or die" with Gyarados i believe)

- Also I think Mscizor came back strongly this cycle (especially max hp max def defog), it kinda check all the team so you have to preserve and break with Lele then

All in all a really consistent team for the ladder, you mainly have to be careful about the hazard war, not sure how well it can work outside though ;_ ;

Import : http://pokepast.es/c30c4b98e051773b

I also used stall a bit and y I think it’s broken and so match-up biased, people who say it’s tough to play are wrong too, obviously if you havent played it before you’re gonna struggle but that was my case and after a few days of learning i could grab free wins too (that’s what several previous qualifiers did…). Only tried SPL Stall because I believe it’s the easiest to play for a noob like me, at least you have the choice between trading hazards or removing them and dont sit around for 1k turns ; at the end of the day you either win slowly or just lose straight up to some stored power CM clefable (e: regular clef cant break mb, but psychium z does as well as other Cts one could face : Z fcannon Reuni, sub pinsir, mawile + other stuff, cm taunt keldeo etc, just wanted to point out the match up issue), really cool playstyle indeed. Cya dugtrio

Gratz to everyone who made it this cycle, this was damn entertaining

S/o Gondra best builder S/o Kickasser best coach S/o PS French room best cheerleaders

 

[Zokuru]

I also used stall a bit and y I think it’s broken and so match-up biased, people who say it’s tough to play are wrong too, obviously if you havent played it before you’re gonna struggle but that was my case and after a few days of learning i could grab free wins too (that’s what several previous qualifiers did…). Only tried SPL Stall because I believe it’s the easiest to play for a noob like me, at least you have the choice between trading hazards or removing them and dont sit around for 1k turns ; at the end of the day you either win slowly or just lose straight up to some stored power CM clefable, really cool playstyle indeed. Cya dugtrio

Gratz to everyone who made it this cycle, this was damn entertaining

S/o Gondra best builder S/o Kickasser best coach S/o PS French room best cheerleaders

Then be honest and say that only SPL Stall is stupid.

I would not call broken a stall team that can't play aroud things like Stored Clefa tho.

 

[Sabella]

Then be honest and say that only SPL Stall is stupid.

I would not call broken a stall team that can't play aroud things like Stored Clefa tho.

Well stored power clefable never beats spl stall so the comment is pointless. The psychium set blunder posted does but thats a really really hard ct nd takes away from all the other stuff clef provides.

 

[Zokuru]

Well stored power clefable never beats spl stall so the comment is pointless. The psychium set blunder posted does but thats a really really hard ct nd takes away from all the other stuff clef provides.

I know that Stored Clef don't beat it, I'm just replying on that :

or just lose straight up to stored power CM clefable, really cool playstyle indeed.

The proof that Cdumas knows nothing about stall.

 

[p2]

Cycle 4 Qualifiers

[images soon, qualifiers here in the meantime]
Rank: #1 | ELO: 2125 | GXE: 88.4% | Record: 88-26
Rank: #2 | ELO: 2118 | GXE: 86.7% | Record: 148-74
Rank: #3 | ELO: 2116 | GXE: 86.8% | Record: [reset]
Rank: #4 | ELO: 2116 | GXE: 88.2% | Record: [reset]
Rank: #5 | ELO: 2110 | GXE: 88.3% | Record: 93-28
Rank: #6 | ELO: 2109 | GXE: 87.4% | Record: [reset]
Rank: #7 | ELO: 2107 | GXE: 88.8% | Record: 83-24
Rank: #8 | ELO: 2107 | GXE: 89.0% | Record: 108-37
​

- Seeing a lot of usage as a suicide lead this cycle, Excadrill was used for its access to Mold Breaker + Stealth Rock along with Rapid Spin which allowed it to set up SR against nearly everything in the tier and keep them off it's own side too. However it struggles to keep Garchomp's rocks off because of Rough Skin blocking Rapid Spin and Ferrothorn could consistently keep up rocks 1v1. Other niche options like Jolly Helmet Lando-T can prevent them too but it isn't exactly common or very noteworthy.

- Protean Greninja seen a lot of usage thanks to its Focus Sash set which reliably set up Spikes / Toxic Spikes due to its high Speed and options that would normally punish faster Pokemon with Taunt such as Gunk Shot which means Tapu Koko takes a huge gamble if it wants to prevent early game hazards. Regardless, Taunt allowed Greninja to consistently keep up Spikes against Defog users and effectively put pressure on bulkier teams.

- Mega Gyarados seen a surge in usage this cycle because people discovered how effective it can be at breaking down stall teams as it can set up against common Pokemon found on stall such as Skarmory and Alomomola. Mold Breaker allows it to bypass Unaware which was typically the go-to answer for setup sweepers on Stall, either that or trapping with Sash Dugtrio. Toxapex can be very annoying for it but teams found ways to effectively lure or weaken it into range for +1 Gyarados.

- Victini is a niche pick in the tier but thanks to its new event giving it Celebrate, Z-Celebrate was seen on quite a few teams going around this cycle, the main reason it was used over say Charizard Y was STAB Stored Power which allowed it to break through Toxapex which completely walls Charizard Y. Extra bulk from Z-Celebrate made it difficult for Choice Scarf users to reliably beat it too, with Garchomp and Keldeo only doing around 70%, which gave it just enough breathing room vs most priority moves if Rocks were kept off the field. Very fun mon to use though, the meta in general just simply wasn't prepared for a Fire-type that could break though Toxapex and Heatran by itself, but the hype will likely die down as the meta adapts to it.

Notable Teams

[built by xtra] - Double sash hazards team that was everywhere this cycle. Excadrill and Greninja as previously mentioned stack hazards quickly and easily with each other, the most important thing though is that Excadrill can set up Rocks vs stall and force in Skarmory to Defog, allowing Gyarados to set up, this usually let it break Clefable and Toxapex depending on how well played it was, usually allowing for Zygarde to break through the rest of the team and win. The sets on this team are quite easy to change and adapt, I talked to xtra about this. He said Zyg can run any set it wants, whether its CB / Double Dance / SubDD w/ TSpike Gren etc. This team also uses Trick Room Magearna which dropped off for a while after SPL and was never really used much afterwards. I used a version of this team with Electrium Mag and LO on Mimi instead of Shuca Mag / Ghostium Mimi, wasnt fond of the SD Scizor weakness though.

[built by sabella] - Read about this team here.

[built by gondra] - Read about this team here.

Unfortunately I didn't really pay attention to many of the builds used this cycle, but xtras team was everywhere this cycle good lord. Feel free to post more if I missed some important ones