Serious On raising children and specifically spanking

[smogon account]

I had a big thing typed up about how my dad used to yell at me but I deleted it because it was dumb
"Studies show" becomes a meaningless expression when there are equally many studies that show the exact opposite.
Sociology is an even bigger joke
Spanking is just effective immediate punishment and if you want to argue that it screws kids up take your fight to divorce or something that *actually* screws kids up

i disagree, all i need to prove is that it is a single factor in the emergence of a pathological inheritable affective habit, because demonstrating total causality demands taking a totalized position on nature vs nurture that is obviously not a position I hold. however, in fact, it is quite statistically verifiable that trauma is linked to birth defects that I would, perhaps obtusely, point out are accompanied by fragile, certifiably dependent personalities in addition to other symptoms. High levels of the stress hormone cortisol are an example of this correlation.

Speak english

 

[Myzozoa]

"Studies show" becomes a meaningless expression when there are equally many studies that show the exact opposite.
Sociology is an even bigger joke


Speak english

make an argument and learn to read

what studies show 'the exact opposite' of which other studies?

 

[Sloane187]

i disagree, all i need to prove is that it is a single factor in the emergence of a pathological inheritable affective habit,

In order to demonstrate the "pathological" part, you need:

1. A theory of personality that identifies which types are pathological and which are sane.
2. A map between e.g. gene expression and personality objects (like Dabrowski's positive disintegration).
3. A proof that the inverse image of said map from "pathological" to gene expression is non-empty, and that the result of spanking is one of the elements of said inverse image.

because demonstrating total causality demands taking a totalized position on nature vs nurture that is obviously not a position I hold.

And that's okay fam, but the three things I listed are needed even to show partial causality.

however, in fact, it is quite statistically verifiable that trauma is linked to birth defects that I would, perhaps obtusely, point out are accompanied by fragile, certifiably dependent personalities in addition to other symptoms. High levels of the stress hormone cortisol are an example of this correlation.

It appears to me that you're equating "new epigenetic expression" with "birth defects," which is not okay. Epigenetic expressions are always in favor of some kind of survival purpose (even if that survival purpose is a liability in the modern era) while birth defects are perversions of survival purposes.

 

[tcr]

1. Psychology studies are not reproducible.
2. What do you propose we do? Let children do whatever they want like TCS?

not gonna bother commenting on the rest of the drivel you posted above but the bolded part is just simply, factually, not true. Please do not spread misinformation like this when you don't actually know what you are talking about

 

[tcr]

you can literally count on your hand the number of studies that show a positive correlation in socioemotional growth and intelligence vs spanking / corporal punishment abuse

meanwhile there are an enormous mountain of studies done since the 1980s that have shown the exact opposite, that its a detrimental effect on the child. It's quite clear you didn't even bother reading the OP or have done any research on this topic

 

[smogon account]

make an argument and learn to read

what studies show 'the exact opposite' of which other studies?

Part of argumentation is learning to speak or otherwise get your point across effectively...

The most clickbaity of contradictory studies probably lie in the harm or benefit of violent video games

 

[Sloane187]

you can literally count on your hand the number of studies that show a positive correlation in socioemotional growth and intelligence vs spanking / corporal punishment abuse

meanwhile there are an enormous mountain of studies done since the 1980s that have shown the exact opposite, that its a detrimental effect on the child. It's quite clear you didn't even bother reading the OP or have done any research on this topic

"Enormous mountain of studies" = popular belief. To quote Einstein, if any of them had any evidence, then only one study would be needed!

 

[smogon account]

Can't help but notice you didn't address part of my post though, wondering if you're just gonna whip out some more studies that show exactly what you want them to or what
I think it's a legitimate point

 

[Myzozoa]

In order to demonstrate the "pathological" part, you need:

1. A theory of personality that identifies which types are pathological and which are sane.

stop you there because this obviously exists and it's not my job to explain it all over in this thread. if you dont accept the existence of mood disorder gene complexes that is all ur business, but lol.

the next 2 points are verifiable if you just understand epigentics, gamete formation and hormones, and are open to the possibility of an incident of physical abuse being traumatic, as i said before, try google.

It appears to me that you're equating "new epigenetic expression" with "birth defects," which is not okay. Epigenetic expressions are always in favor of some kind of survival purpose (even if that survival purpose is a liability in the modern era) while birth defects are perversions of survival purposes.

no my point was that stress and trauma impact the physical structure of dna including causing breaking, hello person who brought up protein folding nonsense. if you want to talk about trauma and the heritability of standard range mood disorders i gave a 'theory' already: epigenetic switch points can contribute to a predisposition by flipping a sequence of genes influencing the proportion of certain key chemicals that contribute to regulating mood. the theory is called genetic transcription and translation, and meiosis, and hormone signalling.

 

[Cresselia~~]

I was a physically abused (caning) child and it was THE cause of my second disability.
I really hope that caning can be banned in all Asian countries.
Some older Asians think that I'm just being weak/ a loser of some sort.
My mum would say that it's because I'm "special", and that her methods would work on a normal child.
She even said things like "Westerners are all very spoiled because their parents didn't beat them up."
I still disagree with her.
There have been countless psychological researches that suggest corporal punishment is damaging towards kids.

I can tolerate some parents who justify slapping their children with their bare hands, though I don't encourage it.
However, physical punishment with something other than bare hands, (rulers, canes, etc) is a huge NO from me.

 

[Sloane187]

I was a physically abused (caning) child and it was THE cause of my second disability.

That's because your parents did it whenever you did something they didn't like, so it was arbitrary. They didn't do it according to rules and so didn't make it consistent. Randomly punishing a child will cause it to become mind-damaged.

 

[internet]

spritz them with a spray water bottle instead as if theyre a cat

 

[earl]

That's because your parents did it whenever you did something they didn't like, so it was arbitrary. They didn't do it according to rules and so didn't make it consistent. Randomly punishing a child will cause it to become mind-damaged.

Where did they say it was arbitrary punishment and not set on rules?

 

[internet]

i would never spank my kids because if i did, and my kid later developed a BDSM fetish and i found out, i would have to kill myself

 

[Sloane187]

Where did they say it was arbitrary punishment and not set on rules?

The truth is that humans are animals and that the human brain is just an upscaled primate brain. Operant conditioning works 100% on all animals, and positive punishment is effective if and only if it is an instrument of operant conditioning. So if someone received positive punishment but had their mind damaged then they were not receiving operant conditioning. They were getting beaten at random because their parents were assholes.

And there are ways to recover from mind damage. Of all the things that can potentially cause mind-damage, I think positive punishment is the least harmful. Movies and fairy tales can be far more traumatic to the developing mind. I think more children became fucked up from watching that scene in Pinocchio when the children were transformed into donkeys than getting punished or beaten by an adult. Walt Disney didn't know better at the time but now we do. Pinocchio should be reserved for adolescents or adults. The Pokémon anime (but not the first movie) is about the most child appropriate television show I've seen. It should be the gold-standard for psychologically healthy children programming.

It's ironic that people talk about the psychological research done on the harms of positive punishment, but the truth is, one of the only phenomena in psychology that is consistently replicable is the effectiveness of operant conditioning for belief formation and behavioral control. So peer-reviewed psychology supports positive punishment for child development because peer-reviewed replicable psychology supports operant conditioning for all mammals, and all positive punishment (when done according to rules) is operant conditioning. People forget to think in abstract categories and so they incorrectly assume that positive punishment is different from operant conditioning.

 

[termi]

Sloane187 ok so where are your sources on this "operant conditioning" bud. if you know so much about peer-reviewed psychology research papers that prove that this operant conditioning you are talking about is necessarily good for human upbringing, why don't you share your sources with us?

 

[internet]

The real spanking is what sloane is doing to all of us in this argument.


Seriously though, give the folks some sources.

 

[MAMP]

The truth is that humans are animals and that the human brain is just an upscaled primate brain. Operant conditioning works 100% on all animals, and positive punishment is effective if and only if it is an instrument of operant conditioning. So if someone received positive punishment but had their mind damaged then they were not receiving operant conditioning. They were getting beaten at random because their parents were assholes.

And there are ways to recover from mind damage. Of all the things that can potentially cause mind-damage, I think positive punishment is the least harmful. Movies and fairy tales can be far more traumatic to the developing mind. I think more children became fucked up from watching that scene in Pinocchio when the children were transformed into donkeys than getting punished or beaten by an adult. Walt Disney didn't know better at the time but now we do. Pinocchio should be reserved for adolescents or adults. The Pokémon anime (but not the first movie) is about the most child appropriate television show I've seen. It should be the gold-standard for psychologically healthy children programming.

It's ironic that people talk about the psychological research done on the harms of positive punishment, but the truth is, one of the only phenomena in psychology that is consistently replicable is the effectiveness of operant conditioning for belief formation and behavioral control. So peer-reviewed psychology supports positive punishment for child development because peer-reviewed replicable psychology supports operant conditioning for all mammals, and all positive punishment (when done according to rules) is operant conditioning. People forget to think in abstract categories and so they incorrectly assume that positive punishment is different from operant conditioning.

for those unaware, 'operant conditioning' refers to the way that humans and other animals change their behaviour in response to punishment and reinforcement. it's true that operant conditioning 'works' on people — it can be an effective way of encouraging/discouraging specific behaviours in children. to jump from that to "it's ok to hit children" is a bizarre logical leap.

i was gonna explain how operant conditioning also includes positive reinforcement which has consistently been proven to be usually much more effective than punishment, and that while corporal punishment can work at discouraging specific behaviours it can still be very damaging to a person's mental health and relationships and can cause a variety of behavioural issues in the future, but all of that would be missing the point. hitting kids isn't wrong because it's ineffective, it's wrong because it's amoral and cruel and violates a person's right to bodily integrity. cannot for the life of me fathom why someone would ever want to hit a kid, let alone why they would put effort into arguing for their right to do so. don't hit kids for the same reasons you wouldn't hit an adult. they're people.

not sure what you're trying to say about pinocchio lol

 

[elodin]

respect children

 

[Reisen]

In my opinion children can sometimes be borderline in the behavior aspect, I remember when I was a kid that I've allowed myself to do things when I was at the supermarket with my father that I would never do with my mother simply because I knew this kind of "test" wouldn't work with her. It will be weird to say but I've kinda "feared" my mother more than my father but not in a way that I was constantly afraid of her, it was just a kind of reminder that I needed to cut off the stupid things I was about to do when she was there.

However it doesn't mean that I didn't love my mother when I was a kid nor I was afraid of her for everything; like being afraid of arguing on something we didn't agree on or being afraid of her reaction when I had bad marks at school. I guess it also depends on the parents and their ability to not feel "oppressive" to their childs.

This education actually helped me to keep my head together and I've never felt disturbed by this. When you speak to a child and explain them that they shouldn't act in one way or another, and they still don't understand, you have to rush them. I might not use the right word in english so it might sound harsh but what I'm trying to say here is that children must understand that they aren't allowed to do things if speaking to them by giving a clear explanation isn't enough.

Also I disagree with some posts above on the fact that spanking is considered as violence. Slapping or beating can be considered as violence but not spanking. When you see a child crying after being spanked, it is not because this child was hurt, they were just surprised and certainly shocked.

I can say from my personal experience that I wasn't "damaged" from that and since I will be a mother soon, I will raise my child in the same way my parents raised me.

 

[Myzozoa]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=744733195941831

 

[kilometerman]

the criminalization of brown kids starts asap, it is very common in America's criminal courts to have a 31 yr old male poc going to jail on a gun/drug possession charge with a record going back to age 11 for something as contrived as not snitching on another kid on their block. there is no parenting strategy to be contrived in the face of American cultural and institutional racism and a poverty landscape, you do what you have to so you can survive. The damaging affects of abuse and neglect, of experiencing violence from people who are supposed to be your caretaker, are well documented and I think parents should never feel like they have to hit their kids, but the answer to 'how does society prevent violence against children' is not to print more books for parents to read about how harmful it is to hit their kids (much of which is undoubtedly true), but to increase access to childcare and education.

this is the type of convo i imagine older white women having before they call cps on some brown girl who sent their kid to school when they had a cold.

I leave for a couple months and I come back to see you bringing up racism in the 11th post on a thread about spanking. Naughty naughty Myo. This is what happens when you don't have that strong male figure in your life to spank you physically or metaphorically!


@asians itt. Genuinely curious. If asian parents generally don't spank their kids as much as others, then where does that sense of obediance and discipline come from? What are the common ways asian kids are punished?

 

[MAMP]

In my opinion children can sometimes be borderline in the behavior aspect, I remember when I was a kid that I've allowed myself to do things when I was at the supermarket with my father that I would never do with my mother simply because I knew this kind of "test" wouldn't work with her. It will be weird to say but I've kinda "feared" my mother more than my father but not in a way that I was constantly afraid of her, it was just a kind of reminder that I needed to cut off the stupid things I was about to do when she was there.

However it doesn't mean that I didn't love my mother when I was a kid nor I was afraid of her for everything; like being afraid of arguing on something we didn't agree on or being afraid of her reaction when I had bad marks at school. I guess it also depends on the parents and their ability to not feel "oppressive" to their childs.

This education actually helped me to keep my head together and I've never felt disturbed by this. When you speak to a child and explain them that they shouldn't act in one way or another, and they still don't understand, you have to rush them. I might not use the right word in english so it might sound harsh but what I'm trying to say here is that children must understand that they aren't allowed to do things if speaking to them by giving a clear explanation isn't enough.

Also I disagree with some posts above on the fact that spanking is considered as violence. Slapping or beating can be considered as violence but not spanking. When you see a child crying after being spanked, it is not because this child was hurt, they were just surprised and certainly shocked.

I can say from my personal experience that I wasn't "damaged" from that and since I will be a mother soon, I will raise my child in the same way my parents raised me.

anecdotal evidence is pretty meaningless here. if a child isn't old enough to understand a clear explanation, they aren't old enough to understand why they're being spanked. there are many more effective ways of disciplining children that are not violent. the idea that children are not hurt when they are spanked is complete bullshit. please, please do not hit your children.

 

[termi]

@asians itt. Genuinely curious. If asian parents generally don't spank their kids as much as others, then where does that sense of obediance and discipline come from? What are the common ways asian kids are punished?

i know this user is banned once again (probably at least in part because of the part of his post i omitted here) but i think it's generally worth noting that an obedient child does not equal a happy child. i don't think anyone's disputing that beating a child into submission will make it obedient and can in fact allow it to become very good at something through rigorous discipline, but what i would very much dispute is that these children will grow to love their parents and generally be satisfied with life. your priority as a parent should not be to make your child good at something, your priority as a parent should be to ultimately allow your child to live a happy life. if you do not understand this, you are not fit to be a parent. i feel like i've said this earlier in the thread in one way or another and if i didn't, somebody else did, but this mindset to treat your child as an object whose purpose is to excel and make you "proud" is so pervasive in many cultures (not just asian ones) that it needs to be stressed again and again. i really don't understand why this is difficult to understand for some, but there you go.

 

[Lord of the Shuckles]

Hey guys, this argument is getting a little heated. I've been listening to both sides and I think there are good points for the both of you, but I think overall you are getting a bit off topic and need to circle back to what really lies at the crux of the whole discussion...














i was hit as a kid and turned out fine