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Implemented On sellback reimbursement

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Ruft

I was just about to ask for a light
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According to the current rules, once a team tour has started, an approved sellback reimburses a flat 3k in credits for the midseason auction, regardless of the price of the player. I think that number is unfairly low.

This SPL we drafted Skarpherim for 19.5k. He then disappeared during week 2 without any warning or communication. This happened during the winter storm, so it could be an emergency, but it could also be a standard "cancering" situation. Either way, it's outside of our control as a team, but under the current rules we'd only get 3k to try to patch a 19.5k slot at midseason, weeks later.

The logic I'm using is the same logic that's been argued in this thread: when the rest of the team isn't at fault, the system shouldn't stack extra punishment on top of the loss. For pre-week 1 cases, tournament policy ended up recognizing that value matters: "Teams who sell back players before the start of Week 1 will be reimbursed with credits equal to 1.5k + half of that player's retention cost or value in the auction. These credits may be used prior to the start of Week 1 on undrafted players who signed up, and players selected will be eligible to play starting in Week 1. Any of these credits that remain unused will be converted into sellback credits for use in the midseason auction."

I don't see why that principle should suddenly stop applying the moment week 1 starts. If anything, this situation is worse: you're down a starter for weeks, and even once the sellback is approved you can only buy a new player at midseason, meaning they can't play until week 6. This would not be an "overcompensation". You're still losing value in credits, you're still forced to buy from a restricted midseason pool (often "below average subs", as stated in the thread linked), and you've potentially spent weeks with a player down.

The change I'm arguing for is simple: for sellbacks approved after the start of week 1 and before midseason, the team should receive the same scaled formula as pre-week 1 sellbacks (1.5k + half of the player's price), with the credits still only usable at midseason. The current flat 3k is a massive undercompensation that ignores both the price of the player lost and and the reality that these situations are usually completely outside the team's control.

If the concern with this proposal is that managers (and their team) should be punished for drafting someone who cancers, I strongly disagree. The point of changing 3k to a scaled refund isn't to make cancering "costless", it's to stop teams from getting arbitrarily gutted by something they can't control. As a secondary benefit, it also makes any sort of "social" pricefixing less plausible: if teams aren't heavily penalized for ending up with an unreliable slot, there's less incentive for players to try to strongarm specific outcomes by telling only certain managers they won't play (certain tiers). And for the genuinely rare case where a player is found to intentionally cancer to benefit a team, that should be deterred by imposing significant penalties on both the managers and the player involved if found out to be intentional, just like in other cases of manager misconduct, such as ghosting someone on their team or knowingly drafting the alt of a banned user.
 
Disclaimer from the hosts / tournament directors:

We will not consider changing the system for this edition of SPL. These rules were in place when the auction happened, and changing them now in a move that benefits a few teams at most is off the table.

If people want to discuss this change for future iterations, feel free.
 
I want to drop my 2 cents as last year on the Tigers we had 3 players become inactive. Trosko had an emergency situation as a manager w1 and didn't return until finals. Malekith and Sergio both got haxed and lost in a very tilting fashion only to disappear for weeks, iirc this was like w4 or so. One refused to play their tier and one was gone for weeks without communication (there was also a storm). This not only affected our regular season performance but also our TB performance and morale of the team. I have nothing against the players, life can get shitty sometimes, but I do think the players and managers who are motivated/dedicated should not be punished. Despite all of this we made it to the finals. I fully believe we would have won if there was better compensation.

A player cancering is not the manager's fault, even if they have tendencies to do so. And even if it is, what about the players? Like mentioned before, it sucks for the entire team and why punish the players.

IMO there should be:
1) full refund or at least 1.5K + half the price
2) have the option midseason and again right before playoffs (i think sellback is great in general but it's limited since it only happens one time, it sucks if someone cancer w1 having to wait to w6 or if someone cancers after w6)
3) opportunity to even replace a manager

All of this with this condition:
- The tournament hosts must see reasonable evidence that the player is inactive / uncooperative for multiple weeks and approve the sellback. I only say this because I do not want to go full swing the other way where managers just replace players who got a bad record despite playing their best or maybe need 1-2 weeks off (shit happens).

It literally sucks for everyone, including the spectators. No one really thinks that player cancering into full refund is an advantage. It gives more flexiblity (always a +) and rounds off the extreme edges of a player cancering for the team, which can easily hinder a playoff appearance or a tour win.
 
Last edited:
The TD Team is currently planning on abolishing the Midseason.

Instead, we will allow for reports of inactivity from managers about their players. After an investigation, and assuming the report is substantiated, the players will be allowed to be sold back and a single replacement player may be chosen immediately from the undrafted pool.

Do note our rules on manager responsibility for making sure their players are active won't change; we expect managers to be engaging their players and making sure they are contributing. Submitting a report where a player has been inactive but managers haven't taken steps to engage that player in their teamcord (especially for benched players) will most likely be denied. If you need a host opinion on a case, feel free to ask beforehand!

Some additional notes/rules:
  • This will also apply to any banned players.
  • This will also apply to team cancers/players who quit the tournament.
  • The deadline for submitting an inactivity report to the hosts will be the Week 5 deadline.
  • All replacement players will only be eligible to play the week after they are picked up (for example, if a report is submitted at the end of Week 4, and a replacement player is issued Week 5, that player can play from Week 6 onwards).
  • Replacement players will be 1:1, no matter how much the replaced player cost.
  • In the case of multiple teams being able to pick replacement players (e.g. a ban wave), those teams will be able to pick their replacements in reverse current standings order.

This will affect SPL and SCL (including the upcoming SCL). We're open to feedback on this proposal!
 
I think abolishing the midseason is a good move, it's been a while since it's been more than 1-2 players, and the ability to address early cancers earlier is nice.
In the case of multiple teams being able to pick replacement players (e.g. a ban wave), those teams will be able to pick their replacements in reverse current standings order.
What about in order of the price of the player being replaced? For example if Team A is replacing a 10k and Team B is replacing a 3k, Team A gets to pick first regardless of standing? It's still (probably) a fairly small benefit but does give some advantage to the team that is presumably more disadvantage by the cancers / bans.
 
All replacement players will only be eligible to play the week after they are picked up
Convo in stours led me to propose the following:

Teams that are granted a replacement player are eligible to claim this replacement at a time of their choosing*; this replacement is still ineligible to play during the week they are chosen, but the team now has additional time to gauge their roster and find the best replacement option during what is usually a pretty turbulent process due to player getting banned unexpectedly. This change does not put any burden on the hosting team as the team that is rewarded the replacement is responsible for submitting their choice at their leisure.

*edit: up to week 5, given the deadline for a replacement pick (or whatever week is chosen in subsequent tours)
 
After discussing with you guys on discord i do have thoughts. If mids are abolished could there still be a vehicle to pick up an undrafted player during the regular season? (maybe have a cutoff point where you cant anymore like week 7 or something)

UT had suggested that a formal mids wouldnt be needed to pick up an extra player if you happen to have additional 3K credits leftover after auction. To me this would be a best of both worlds situation. Managers would have the flexibility to save an extra 3K if they are in a position to and happy with their roster after the initial auction. If said team wanted to pick up an additional undrafted player to bolster their roster at any point before week 7 they could do so. Akin to picking up a player off waivers in baseball. Thoughts?

The reasoning for this at least for me is as follows. Lets say after initial auction you are happy with your roster and have 3k leftover but you consider your ou a bit weaker and your other tiers quite strong. Come week 4/5 you find your ou is performing better than expected and your other tiers performing a bit worse than expected. You now have 3k to spend to help bolster the weak area. If you were forced to spend it in the initial auction you would most likely have spent it on an ou player because you considered that part of your roster weaker. This leaves you with manager flexibility to bolster your roster without having the workload of a midseason auction for the hosts.
 
- what about managers who cancer / become inactive
- what about players that cancer after week 5
nothing changes, they get punished as they currently do. Only way to replace a player after the dl is if you get so many people banned or whatever that you literally cannot field a starting lineup.

Convo in stours led me to propose the following:

Teams that are granted a replacement player are eligible to claim this replacement at a time of their choosing*; this replacement is still ineligible to play during the week they are chosen, but the team now has additional time to gauge their roster and find the best replacement option during what is usually a pretty turbulent process due to player getting banned unexpectedly. This change does not put any burden on the hosting team as the team that is rewarded the replacement is responsible for submitting their choice at their leisure.

*edit: up to week 5, given the deadline for a replacement pick (or whatever week is chosen in subsequent tours)
seems fine, would just say that if you choose to delay you accept that you fall into whatever the pick priority for the teams choosing the week you pick

I think abolishing the midseason is a good move, it's been a while since it's been more than 1-2 players, and the ability to address early cancers earlier is nice.

What about in order of the price of the player being replaced? For example if Team A is replacing a 10k and Team B is replacing a 3k, Team A gets to pick first regardless of standing? It's still (probably) a fairly small benefit but does give some advantage to the team that is presumably more disadvantage by the cancers / bans.
seems reasonable, maybe it should be price first and standings if equal price

After discussing with you guys on discord i do have thoughts. If mids are abolished could there still be a vehicle to pick up an undrafted player during the regular season? (maybe have a cutoff point where you cant anymore like week 7 or something)

UT had suggested that a formal mids wouldnt be needed to pick up an extra player if you happen to have additional 3K credits leftover after auction. To me this would be a best of both worlds situation. Managers would have the flexibility to save an extra 3K if they are in a position to and happy with their roster after the initial auction. If said team wanted to pick up an additional undrafted player to bolster their roster at any point before week 7 they could do so. Akin to picking up a player off waivers in baseball. Thoughts?

The reasoning for this at least for me is as follows. Lets say after initial auction you are happy with your roster and have 3k leftover but you consider your ou a bit weaker and your other tiers quite strong. Come week 4/5 you find your ou is performing better than expected and your other tiers performing a bit worse than expected. You now have 3k to spend to help bolster the weak area. If you were forced to spend it in the initial auction you would most likely have spent it on an ou player because you considered that part of your roster weaker. This leaves you with manager flexibility to bolster your roster without having the workload of a midseason auction for the hosts.
Feels pointless given that literally nobody ever saves money for mids. This stopped being a thing when we stopped allowing new sign ups at midseason, people aren’t saving money to get earthworm and blunder at midseason anymore. Like yeah it technically is a strategy in theory but we’ve seen literally hundreds of teams in practice at this point decide it is not worth doing, so why bother.
 
nothing changes, they get punished as they currently do. Only way to replace a player after the dl is if you get so many people banned or whatever that you literally cannot field a starting lineup.


seems fine, would just say that if you choose to delay you accept that you fall into whatever the pick priority for the teams choosing the week you pick


seems reasonable, maybe it should be price first and standings if equal price


Feels pointless given that literally nobody ever saves money for mids. This stopped being a thing when we stopped allowing new sign ups at midseason, people aren’t saving money to get earthworm and blunder at midseason anymore. Like yeah it technically is a strategy in theory but we’ve seen literally hundreds of teams in practice at this point decide it is not worth doing, so why bother.
The reason to keep it would be for that strategy. While in recent years it hasnt been used that doesnt mean that it cant or wont happen in the future. I was told one of the big reasons for getting rid of mids besides the fact that people dont really save money anymore is to reduce workload for hosts. A simple pm to claim a undrafted player is about as easy at it gets work wise for the hosts so why not leave that option open for managers?
 
The TD Team is currently planning on abolishing the Midseason.

Instead, we will allow for reports of inactivity from managers about their players. After an investigation, and assuming the report is substantiated, the players will be allowed to be sold back and a single replacement player may be chosen immediately from the undrafted pool.

Do note our rules on manager responsibility for making sure their players are active won't change; we expect managers to be engaging their players and making sure they are contributing. Submitting a report where a player has been inactive but managers haven't taken steps to engage that player in their teamcord (especially for benched players) will most likely be denied. If you need a host opinion on a case, feel free to ask beforehand!

Some additional notes/rules:
  • This will also apply to any banned players.
  • This will also apply to team cancers/players who quit the tournament.
  • The deadline for submitting an inactivity report to the hosts will be the Week 5 deadline.
  • All replacement players will only be eligible to play the week after they are picked up (for example, if a report is submitted at the end of Week 4, and a replacement player is issued Week 5, that player can play from Week 6 onwards).
  • Replacement players will be 1:1, no matter how much the replaced player cost.
  • In the case of multiple teams being able to pick replacement players (e.g. a ban wave), those teams will be able to pick their replacements in reverse current standings order.

This will affect SPL and SCL (including the upcoming SCL). We're open to feedback on this proposal!

We plan on moving forward with this, with the following edits:

  • In the case of multiple teams being able to pick replacement players (e.g. a ban wave), those teams will be able to pick their replacements first according to cost of the player, or in the case of a tie, in reverse current standings order.
  • Replacement picks may be delayed until the end of Week 6 if desired, but in the case of multiple being available will follow the above replacement order (price then reverse current standings) so we recommend getting picks in ASAP.
 
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