[on site] Your Starter Pokémon (Advance)

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Jumpman16

np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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Your Starter Pokémon


Introduction

Okay. You're building a new team, and you want to know how to give yourself an significant edge over your opponent from the moment those first pokéballs are tossed out. You might want to get him on his heels early so you can lure out the perfect poke for one of yours to set up against. Or maybe you may want to lead a Pokémon that is virtually impervious to the attacks of other popular starter Pokémon. Then these Pokémon begin to attract specific opening counters, slow or fast, durable or designed for hit-and-runs.

Before you know it, it becomes a game within a game, a round of rock-paper-scissors that can directly affect the entire outcome of the battle. Let's take a look at some of the most popular options available to you.

Getting up to Speed

We all know that, of the quantitative aspects of Pokémon, speed is arguably the most important. The mere threat of severely injuring an important component of your opponent's team is more than enough to have him switching out to take whatever blow your fast Pokémon is about to deal. This concept of drawing first blood can be more than just a small victory—it can set the tone for the whole battle.

Salamence

Where do I begin? 135 base Atk, 100 base Spd and Intimidate made this Pokémon the most popular starter of 2005. It is still a fine choice today, though you should expect to be met with enough Regice, Metagross and Swampert to make the use of this beast as your first Pokémon somewhat not as worth it as it used to be. However, a free Intimidate right off the bat virtually ensures you won't have to switch any of your Pokémon into a strong physical blow, should you be compelled to switch and not deal out damage to whatever Pokémon your opponent decides is best to face Salamence in Round 1, and that's still worth something.

While being two very different Pokémon, Choice Band Salamence and Dragon Dance Salamence are, in my opinion, equally good at starting. Obviously, if your DD Salamence isn't met with a bulky Water starter or something like Regice, it isn't in your best interests to Dragon Dance as your first move, because you can be sure that Salamence counter is forthcoming. However, your opponent won't know which version of Salamence you're starting, and this can be an advantage for you. You can opt to switch out your DD Sala and not use it again until you're convinced you can get that vital DD and sweep, having given your opponent the impression that you didn't like your match up in the beginning for your "CB" Salamence.

And I don't have to go into why CB Salamence is an excellent starter—you can predict what your opponent you Pokémon will switch in and hurt it bad, or predict even further to get yourself an even more favorable matchup, like so:

Jumpman16 vs some dude. Begin!
Jumpman16 sent out I'd switch dude (Lv.100 Salamence)!
some dude sent out Zapdos (Lv.100 Zapdos)!
I'd switch dude's Intimidate cuts Zapdos's Attack!
chaos has started watching.
chaos: you know what jump

Begin Turn #1
Jumpman16 withdrew I'd switch dude!
Jumpman16 sent out SnorlaXBOX (Lv.100 Snorlax)!
---------------------------------
some dude withdrew Zapdos!
some dude sent out Swampert (Lv.100 Swampert)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #1
Jumpman16's SnorlaXBOX: 501 HP
some dude's Swampert: 100% HP
chaos: if anything i'm fat kenan really
skarm has started watching.

Begin Turn #2
some dude withdrew Swampert!
some dude sent out Skarmory (Lv.100 Skarmory)!
---------------------------------
SnorlaXBOX used Fire Blast!
(62% damage)
It's super effective!
---------------------------------
Skarmory's Leftovers restored its HP a little!
End of turn #2
Jumpman16's SnorlaXBOX: 501 HP
some dude's Skarmory: 44% HP

You may notice something a little fishy about this log, and I admit—I've never used a Fire Blast Snorlax in my life. The concept rings true though, and you can clearly see how CB Salamence as a starter can quickly gain control of the whole battle. Zapdos, tying in base speed with Salamence and therefore wary of firing off a "too slow" Hidden Power Ice (or perhaps not having HP Ice at all), retreated in favor of Swampert, ultimately setting up Snorlax to put a big molten dent in the steel bird. It's severely weakened to the point where my CB Salamence's Rock Slide will indeed 2HKO it. Skarmory, likely my opponent's main or even lone true physical wall, can't switch safely into my Salamence now, and this is directly because of the upper hand I gained by leading off with it.

Zapdos

Another fine Flying-type who poses multiple threats all at once. In the past, leading Zapdos would just be asking for Blissey to come in. Now, with XP's impact on the game, Zapdos can Baton Pass an Agility and/or a Sub, or just "air" to the appropriate Pokémon if you predict your opponent will go to a special sponge like Blissey or Snorlax. (This, of course, enables you to "switch" with the knowledge of what Pokémon your opponent has swapped in to deal with your Zapdos, if any, and act accordingly.) Of course, its speed and great overall stats allow it to do whatever it wants, without having to worry about being trapped by Dugtrio.

Aerodactyl

Not as widely used anymore thanks to the advent of CB Salamence, but still a force to be reckoned with. Besides warding off the first two popular fast starters I've mentioned better than any other Pokémon can, it allows you to find out very early if your opponent has a reliable Rock resist like Swampert, which some battlers forget to account for with Aero's decline in popularity.

Gengar

As annoying as ever, Gengar's movepool is so wide open that if you're not leading with something like Metagross (or Aerodactyl), it can hurt whatever Pokémon you send in pretty bad. The threat of physical, special and indirect damage all at one is tough to deal with no matter what Pokémon you have.

Sceptile

With HP Ice and just enough SpA to ward off CB Salamence, this thing can start somewhat effectively by getting behind a Sub and being its usual annoying self, be it with Leech Seed or an eventual Endeavor.

Tauros

This Pokémon is much like CB Salamence in that it has great Attack and Speed, plus Intimidate. It's a little easier for Skarmory to wall Tauros since it doesn't boast a 120 base power SE special attack running off of 110 base SpA, but it's still a force to be reckoned with. It's nice to be able to head off Salamence and Zapdos leads as well, in addition to the bulky Waters and...actually, there really isn't a lead Pokémon that should be staying in against Tauros, is there?

Slaking

Don't forget about this monster. In the right hands this thing will slowly wear you down, with or without Magneton. Forces tough opening decisions much like Salamence, but with a lot more punch consideing its higher Attack and a better physical movepool.

Jolteon

Jolteon offers little more than Speed over Zapdos now that the latter has Baton Pass and Agility as well, but it can still Sub-BP with the best of them. The main reason to use Jolteon now would be to counter the popular Zapdos leads straight up, and even so, 394 Speed's still nothing to sneeze at even if there are better starters.

Ninjask

Forget the fact that you can't bring this poke in very safely anytime after the opening round. The threat of definitely passing Speed and possibly Attack just by Subbing a few times is the #1 reason all teams "must" have a (pseudo)hazer handy, lest they will have been doomed since Round 1. A must for any serious Baton Pass team.

Fast Pokémon that shouldn't start

Speed isn't everything, and you should keep this in mind when choosing an effective starter.

Dugtrio

Of course I'm not a Dugtrio fan, but it really has no business starting if you want to use it. Dugtrio works best with the element of surprise, and leading off with it is the opposite way to go, even if you may pick off the occasional Metagross lead with no HP or Def EVs (that's a tall order by itself). Keep this Pokémon under wraps and bring it out when you're sure you can OHKO the Pokémon you're trapping.

Raikou

Poor Raikou always gets the shaft. This thing just lures Blissey and Snorlax in, though, and like Dugtrio, should be brought in later on in more favorable conditions, where the special walls have been taken out of play. There's nothing Raikou is going to do in the opening round, though, besides bring out the special wall—assuming your opponent didn't lead Lax, Metagross, Regice or Aerodactyl—so choose a better starter and relegate Raikou to cleanup duty. Unlike special Pokémon like Regice or Porygon2, it's too precious to mess around with early, since it has sweeping potential those Pokémon do not.

Alakazam

You may think this Pokémon is similar to Gengar, both sharing high Speed, SpA, a good movepool and frailty, but there are a few key reasons why Alakazam shouldn't be a starter. One, it doesn't have the physical options that Gengar boasts that make Blissey and Snorlax think twice about switching in. Two, heads-up, what does it ward off? Salamence, and that's about it. Third, though its movepool is decent, it doesn't have moves like Hypnosis or Will-o-Wisp to pose a multidimensional threat. It can get off a quick Trickband, but you're actually more likely these days to be met with Snorlax as you are the obvious Blissey even if you do get a favorable starting matchup.

Starmie

Even though it is my third-favorite Pokémon of all time, Starmie's in the same vein as Zam, really. What Pokémon besides Salamence are you really going to scare off? And what do you do when Snorlax or Blissey come in to ruin your fun? Starmie has better things to do, and quite frankly, it should only be starting in a Battle Tower or Stadium Mode Format.

A Brief Note on the Usage of Fast Pokémon as Starters

Since this article features starter Pokémon, I am purposely refraining from discussing the roles of the pokes I bring up outside of their initial impact in the game. However, I should note that as far as Gengar and Starmie are concerned, the fact that they do have better things to do does factor into my assessment that they are not good starters, because if you are using them as starter Pokémon, then you are obviously not using them in the ways I feel they are most effective, regardless of the rest of your team.

Starmie is best as a Rapid Spinner, not as a special sweeper, and even if you wanted to use the latter, it all the more means it shouldn't be starting. Whether other versions of Starmie—ones that include combinations of Thunder Wave, Confuse Ray and Light Screen/Reflect—do Starmie the justice it deserves is up for debate, but regardless these are sets you certainly don't want to start out your battle with.

Alakazam is best as a Calm Minder with Encore, in my opinion, and it's not really a good idea to start out the battle with either of those threats. Trickbanding is a pretty sweet idea, but as I said earlier, you may just meet a Snorlax if not put opposite that or a Metagross heads-up.

So to wrap up this line of thinking, just remember that if you're using a Pokémon, use it to the best of its abilities. Think of starter Alakazam and Starmie as the move Fake Out—even if a Pokémon might make a great initial splash, you may be at a clear disadvantage once that splash has settled, so it's usually best to go with another move over Fake Out, one that'll serve you well in later rounds. (This, by the way, is why I won't discuss CB Medicham at all, since Fake Out is its only saving grace being a mid-speed starter, and even then it is likely Intimidated by Salamence anyway.)

Slow Your Pokéroll

The desire to put a big dent in your opponents' starter Pokémon doesn't have to have the threat of speed behind it, of course. Several Pokémon are great starters simply because they counter popular fast starters without compromising their own movesets too much, which is as important as having a great starter in the first place.

Milotic

Go away, Salamence. Not a thing Sala can do to this bulky Water's Ice Beam, and it's durable enough to fire off a risk-free Hypnosis at Snorlax and Metagross unlike Gengar, who really shouldn't be risking that heads-up. A fine Pokémon for any stage of the game, and certainly makes a good starter.

Metagross

Yeah, Intimidate this, Salamence. Even in spite of MM likely striking the forthcoming Skarmory or bulky Water, Metagross makes a great starter with or without CB, one who cannot be OHKOed—or threatened, really—except by Dugtrio or [Fire-type] and if you think it's a good idea to start either then I guess you're reading the right article! Also, much like with Salamence, you can safely bluff CB when really you're sporting Agility, and therefore have a chance at a mid- to late-game sweep.

Swampert

Another bulky Water that can double as a starter without altering its moveset much. The threat of Curse and Ice Beam is enough of a threat to make this a fine way to start out a battle, with instant offense and defense at your discretion. With the right EV spread, the only thing that really comes close to threatening even a 2HKO is a Grass attack, and you should be able to sniff those out by a mile.

Regice

Regice was already an obvious choice to head off Salamence leads, but the surge in Zapdos usage puts this Pokémon all the more in vogue. Trainers must now ask themselves if it's worth it to lead with either Salamence or Zapdos with the knowledge that if their opponent has elected to lead off with Regice, they're just going to have to switch out. Obvious Blissey/Snorlax bait but that's something you should actually be taking advantage of by now.

Porygon2

Besides ensuring that Ninjask BP teams will have a hard time beating you, Porygon2 is a great boltbeamer who deserves mention with all the Salamence and Zapdos leads running around.

Snorlax

Lax is ideal for heading off Zapdos and Regice leads, and can sport Fire Blast as I indicated earlier to give Skarmory a nice surprise. Starting the match off with a nice Paraslam is never a bad thing too, no matter what "counter" your opponent may bring in.

Venusaur

Crazy Starwolf was so heartbroken that I wasn't going to mention Venusaur at first that I had to add it in to calm her nerves. Venusaur is a durable starting option that can Sleep Powder any common leads it doesn't have serious trouble with, Pokémon like Salamence and Regice. Zapdos isn't going to do much with HP Ice, but beware it tossing up a Sub and Baton Passing to something like Salamence or Skarmory. A reliable Sleep Powder is the main reason to start this Pokémon.

Slow Pokémon That Shouldn't Start

While there are slower Pokémon that are clearly good counters to a few of the fast opening threats, they still shouldn't start the battle off for you, and I'll tell you why.

Suicune

Sure, it'll make your opponent recall Salamence faster than you can say "Super Effective", but then what? Your Ice Beam either meets the designated special sponge, or your Calm Mind is rendered useless in the same scenario. If you honestly have no other options than to start a Pokémon that you're sure won't take too heavy a blow from most opening threats that you won't just switch Snorlax or Skarmory into anyway, it can be okay I guess, but generally, reacting to your opponent's aggression isn't exactly the best policy. Leading with a Sleep Talk variant may suffice if your team has no better leads (and/or is a stall team).

Skarmory

Not really a good idea. This Pokémon should only be brought in to ward off physical attacks when you suspect them. Don't try to predict a Metagross or non-FB Snorlax lead, because in the long run, it's just not smart Pokémon, especially given how poorly Skarmory stacks up against many of the recommended leads. (Logic dictates that it would be even less smart to lead Magneton, of course, so I'm not even going to say any more about Maggy.)

Blissey

What do you plan on accomplishing besides Thunder Waving an enemy Blissey or Snorlax? Don't bother—Blissey is meant to react to Special threats and Heal status. (Even if you have a CM Blissey you'll just get walled much like Raikou would.) Don't jeopardize its health by sticking it in the first slot.

Closing Words

If I left out anything, chances are it doesn't really belong as a starter in the competitive metagame, sorry! If you stick to the starters I have suggested and understand the reasoning behind those I have both promoted and discouraged the use of, you will find your battles will play out a little easier from the very beginning.
 
I'm having problems with this:

Part of Why Regice should lead:
Obvious Blissey/Snorlax bait but that's something you should actually be taking advantage of by now.

Why Suicune shouldn't lead:
Sure, it'll make your opponent recall Salamence faster than you can say "Super Effective", but then what? Your Ice Beam either meets the designated special sponge, or your Calm Mind is rendered useless in the same scenario. If you honestly have no other options than to start a Pokémon that you're sure won't take too heavy a blow from most opening threats that you won't just switch Snorlax or Skarmory into anyway, it can be okay I guess, but generally, reacting to your opponent's aggression isn't exactly the best policy.

So either you should be taking advantage of Bliss/Lax, or you should not lead with anything that baits them? I disagree with the latter either way...fine if they have to switch it in, my lead has already done its job of scaring another lead away. If these two coming in is such a problem, isn't the issue my team? Or perhaps it isn't an issue at all?

Milotic:
Go away, Salamence. Not a thing Sala can do to this bulky water's Ice Beam, and it's durable enough to fire off a risk-free Hypnosis at Snorlax and Metagross unlike Gengar, who really shouldn't be risking that heads-up. A fine Pokémon for any stage of the game, and certainly makes a good starter.

Most of it seems to be not about Milotic leading but using Milotic, but besides that...Hypnosis is threatening? And Trickband from Alakazam is not?

Alakazam

You may think this Pokémon is similar to Gengar, both sharing high speed, SpA, a good movepool and frailty, but there are a few key reasons why Alakazam shouldn't be a starter. One, it doesn't have the physical options that Gengar boasts that make Blissey and Snorlax think twice about switching in. Two, heads-up, what does it ward off? Salamence, and that's about it. Third, though its movepool is decent, it doesn't have moves like Hypnosis or Will-o-Wisp to pose a multidimensional threat. It can get off a quick Trickband, but you're actually more likely these days to be met with Snorlax as you are the obvious Blissey even if you do get a favorable starting matchup.

Blissey has Natural Cure that renders Hypnosis about useless, or at least nothing remotely as threatening as taking her Leftovers and taking away ALL stall potential by locking her into one move. Or Alakazam can Knock her Off. Snorlax usually carries Sleep Talk so he actually will not care about Hypnosis, or even want to come in on it, but it certainly will not be pleased about Choice Band most of the time.

Zapdos sure as hell is a fine starter, but it seems much more Bliss/Lax bait than anything I named above. Even Suicune fares better, usually beating Lax consistently by Calm Minding on the switch and fighting it out from there. If Snorlax Curses, it can get Roared, or beaten, and if it doesn't, it will lose to Pressure or sheer force.

Gengar actually doesn't like Zapdos leads, shouldn't gamble on Metagross one, loses against Regice and Snorlax a lot and unless he has Explosion or Focus Punch (seldomly will it open with them at any rate), he seems to be actually a bad starter if the opponent has Blissey.

My standards for a good starter seem to be way different, I guess.
 
The reason I think Regice is such a strong lead is that it effectively counters nine of the dozen pokemon I designate as good leads—all but Tauros, Slaking and Raikou (and Zam if it does have Trick Band). Gengar and Jolteon don't want to eat an Ice Beam or a Thunder Wave, and Starmie can't do anything and doesn't like TB. Alakazam can't ward off leads as effectively, in my opinion, as I've stated. Even if it does get matched up against Regice or Starmie, it is very likely to Trick a Lax or a Metagross or a Tyranitar than a Blissey. If you want to take issue with the efficacy of the fast leads I've suggested then it may become evident that Regice isn't as strong a lead as I've outlined quantitatively, but that's a separate issue from why pokemon like Zam and Cune aren't as effective as leads, in my opinion.

I also feel Suicune isn't as effective a lead as Milotic or Regice because it can't Hypnosis or ward off 75% of the fast lead threats in the game. Yes, I do feel the lead Hypnosis is threatening, even with Blissey, because what are they doing to do? Stay in and predict that you're going to use Hypnosis again? Or switch out because Milotic can't do anything to Blissey? Either way Milotic has the upper hand even if the first Hypnosis misses. (And Gengar actually can, as four of the five sets suggested in our analysis have Hypnosis and the last is a Perish Trapper that *wants* Blissey to switch in.)

We probably differ on how threatening sleep is in the game more than anything else specific, besides the sheer number of good lead pokemon Regice just flat-out matches up great against. I feel that my Milotic writeup talks more about what it can do as a lead than how great it is the rest of the match, though. And I don't think that Lax cares about Alakazam leads either way, it can take the Hypnosis or operate efficiently as a CB pokemon...and not only it is a fact that Lax replaced Blissey as the special wall of choice as the Advance metagame evolved, CB Tyranitar started to be whored as well at the very end in late 2006. Hell, if anything I'm willing to change my stance on Tyranitar as a "bad lead" since this article was written before CB-Tar really became popular as a lead...but I'll wait for people like goof and mop and husk to post here to confirm that as I personally was getting out of competitive pokemon around that time period.
 
does anyone have anything to say about this (including you mekkah but thanks for actually posting)
 
Starmie

Even though it is my third-favorite Pokémon of all time, this Pokémon is in the same vein as Zam, really.

Quick grammar nitpick; I'd change this to "Even though Starmie is my third-favorite Pokémon of all time, it is in the same vein as Alakazam, really."

Metagross

Yeah, Intimidate this, Salamence. Even in spite of MM likely striking the forthcoming Skarmory or bulky water, Metagross makes a great starter with or without CB, one who cannot be OHKOed—or threatened, really—except by Dugtrio or [Fire type] and if you think it's a good idea to start either then I guess you're reading the right article!

Should be [Fire-type]
 
ok changes made (i kept "Zam" because it's referring to the pokemon directly preceding it and therefore not as out of place as it could otherwise have been)
 
Suggested changes in bold:

Gengar

The threat of physical, special and indirect damage all at one is tough to deal with no matter what Pokémon you have.

Tauros

This Pokémon is much like CB Salamence in that it has great Attack and Speed, plus Intimidate. It's a little easier for Skarmory to wall Tauros since it doesn't boast a 120 base power SE special attack running off of 110 base SpA, but it's still a force to be reckoned with.

Ninjask

Forget the fact that you can't bring this Pokémon in very safely anytime after the opening round.

Alakazam

You may think this Pokémon is similar to Gengar, both sharing high Speed, SpA, a good movepool and frailty, but there are a few key reasons why Alakazam shouldn't be a starter.

Slaking

Don't forget about this monster. In the right hands, this thing will slowly wear you down, with or without Magneton. Forces tough opening decisions much like Salamence, but with a lot more punch consideing its higher Attack and a better physical movepool.

Jolteon

Jolteon offers little more than Speed over Zapdos now that the latter has Baton Pass and Agility as well, but it can still Sub-BP with the best of them. The main reason to use Jolteon now would be to counter the popular Zapdos leads straight up, and even so, 394 Speed's still nothing to sneeze at even if there are better starters.
 
thanks changes made (besides "poke" that was intentional!! unless anyone really has their britches in a bunch over it)
 
We all know that, of the quantitative aspects of Pokémon, speed is one of if not the most important.
change the bolded segment to to "speed is one of—if not the—most important".

(under salamence)
135 base Atk, 100 base Spd
135 base Attack, 100 base Speed

It is still a fine choice today, though you should expect to be met with enough Regice, Metagross and Swampert to make the use of this beast as your first Pokémon somewhat not as worth it as it used to be.
can the last clause please be restructured, preferably with more commas or even broken down into more sentences? it's really long and somewhat unwieldly.

Now, with XP's impact on the game,
XP -> XD?
 
The reason I think Regice is such a strong lead is that it effectively counters nine of the dozen pokemon I designate as good leads

That's great, but it still does not do anything to a Blissey switch. So if it's a huge detriment to Starmie and friends that Blissey can switch into it right away without a care for the world, then it is the case for Regice as well. Or if you're going to brush it off with "you should be able to take advantage of it", then the same should go for Starmie.

For Alakazam, a conservative player will switch out his Salamence in fear of Ice Punch.
Zapdos will not want to risk a Trickband, but does severe damage.
Aerodactyl OHKOs with Double-Edge.
Gengar is OHKOed by Psychic.
Tauros OHKOs with anything and will gladly do it, even if he has to take a near-KO Psychic.
Slaking...really isn't common. I think Slaking won't mind trying a Return or Shadow Ball, even risking the occasional Sub(/Encore) Alakazam.
Jolteon would not enjoy Trickband, but might feel confident against Alakazam due to being faster and exchanging a 2HKO.
Ninjask can OHKO with most it has, may or may not feel like Subbing due to Encore, but Alakazam would have to be insane to risk that.

Milotic isn't very threatening to Alakazam, and either Alakazam can Trickband it, or Milotic can try to Hypnosis. Thing is, if Zam isn't Trickband, then it is usually Calm Mind with Lum Berry, so the shaky 60% Hypnosis would have to hit twice. And Alakzam could Substitute. So Milotic is at risk.
Metagross wins.
Swampert wins, unless it's HP Grass Alakazam, which is viable but may not want to tip his hand, or may not OHKO.
Regice is afraid of Trickband, but Alakazam is afraid of Thunder Wave, so likely they would both switch out.
Porygon2 will scare Alakazam off until it is revealed it does not have Thunder Wave.
Snorlax wins.
Venusaur loses.

Alakazam is less effective against these leads as I usually thought, but whenever it forces an opponent to switch out, I think it is in fact threatening. Trickband is going to annoy you pretty much all the time - things like Snorlax may be able to function alright with a Choice Band, but they will also be unable to Rest, Curse, Substitute, Sleep Talk, you name it.

I also feel Suicune isn't as effective a lead as Milotic or Regice because it can't Hypnosis or ward off 75% of the fast lead threats in the game. Yes, I do feel the lead Hypnosis is threatening, even with Blissey, because what are they doing to do? Stay in and predict that you're going to use Hypnosis again? Or switch out because Milotic can't do anything to Blissey? Either way Milotic has the upper hand even if the first Hypnosis misses. (And Gengar actually can, as four of the five sets suggested in our analysis have Hypnosis and the last is a Perish Trapper that *wants* Blissey to switch in.)

Suicune does in fact scare off Metagross, Salamence, Aerodactyl, Ninjask and, if you're adding it, Tyranitar. And on the defensive end, Milotic could Hypnosis it, but Suicune could have Sleep Talk. Swampert loses. Regice is a stallwar. Porygon2 loses in the end. Snorlax loses one on one. Venusaur does pose problems, but he's arguably the least common out of all of these.

Sure, a lot of the time, Suicune may be forced to Rest and get Whirlwinded/Roared, but that isn't a problem of lead Suicune, it's a problem of Suicune itself. Suicune will likely have scared a starter away, wasted several PPs of whatever tried to wear it out, and exposed the opponents phazer. That's pretty fine for a lead, methinks. If Milotic Hypnosises straight up, likely a Sleep Talker will come straight into it, or else Blissey will check if you're not sneaking in Toxic. If you Hypnosis Blissey, that's not a big win for either side. I personally found Toxic Milotic more effective during the whole game due to Sleep Clause...

and not only it is a fact that Lax replaced Blissey as the special wall of choice as the Advance metagame evolved

They've switched back and forth a gazillion times, but in the end Blissey seems to be the big winner. Sometimes you'd even see both.
 
change the bolded segment to to "speed is one of—if not the—most important".

i originally wrote it like that because i like to write things as they'd be spoken but i guess it's less confusing to read it with dashes, ok


135 base Attack, 100 base Speed

ok

can the last clause please be restructured, preferably with more commas or even broken down into more sentences? it's really long and somewhat unwieldly.

i don't think it's something additional commas or a break down will address, it'd better if i wrote it like this: "though you should expect to be met with enough Regice, Metagross and Swampert to make leading with this flying menace somewhat not as worth it as it used to be." "the use of this beast as your first Pokémon" was indeed unnecessarily wordy

XP -> XD?

ok


thanks for posting
 
That's great, but it still does not do anything to a Blissey switch. So if it's a huge detriment to Starmie and friends that Blissey can switch into it right away without a care for the world, then it is the case for Regice as well. Or if you're going to brush it off with "you should be able to take advantage of it", then the same should go for Starmie.

The same go for both Starmie and Regice. The two constants are the Blissey can and will switch into both, and that you can take advantage of Blissey switching into both. At the end of the day (or beginning of the battle), Regice wards off many more of the initial leads than Starmie, and is therefore the better lead. That is the difference between the two as far as leading is concerned. You know how objectively I have to be making this "argument" given my open pokémancrush with Starmie and my admission that I never even led with Regice once in my competitive advance "career".

Besides, we can't actually assume that every team is going to be using Blissey or Snorlax—if anything I should reword that part

Slaking...really isn't common.

Come on lol, much of my opposition to your Zam support stems from the same exact thing. I've actually remember many more Slaking leads than Alakazam leads myself.

Alakazam is less effective against these leads as I usually thought, but whenever it forces an opponent to switch out, I think it is in fact threatening. Trickband is going to annoy you pretty much all the time - things like Snorlax may be able to function alright with a Choice Band, but they will also be unable to Rest, Curse, Substitute, Sleep Talk, you name it.

The thing is that, as I said in my previous post, the common switches-in to Alakazam aren't actually reacting "defensively" by switching in—Metagross, Snorlax and Tyranitar (all top 10 pokemon throughout pretty much all of the many metagame shifts of Advance) are on the offensive no matter what Alakazam can have used if it stayed in on Turn 1, because they largely do not care about being Tricked a Choice Band and can't be 2HKOed. When switching Blissey into a threatening special lead, you're decidedly on the defensive for the time being, but this is not true if the lead is Alakazam and you have one of those three aforementioned top-10 pokemon on your team.

Suicune does in fact scare off Metagross, Salamence, Aerodactyl, Ninjask and, if you're adding it, Tyranitar. And on the defensive end, Milotic could Hypnosis it, but Suicune could have Sleep Talk. Swampert loses. Regice is a stallwar. Porygon2 loses in the end. Snorlax loses one on one. Venusaur does pose problems, but he's arguably the least common out of all of these.

Sure, a lot of the time, Suicune may be forced to Rest and get Whirlwinded/Roared, but that isn't a problem of lead Suicune, it's a problem of Suicune itself. Suicune will likely have scared a starter away, wasted several PPs of whatever tried to wear it out, and exposed the opponents phazer. That's pretty fine for a lead, methinks. If Milotic Hypnosises straight up, likely a Sleep Talker will come straight into it, or else Blissey will check if you're not sneaking in Toxic. If you Hypnosis Blissey, that's not a big win for either side. I personally found Toxic Milotic more effective during the whole game due to Sleep Clause...

I'm much more borderline on Suicune, but I don't think Milotic and Snorlax really "lose" to it. And again, Milotic using Hypnosis on Blissey still has it in the driver's seat cause it can just use it again and again until Blissey switches or switch if it thinks Blissey is going to stay in—it's a prediction battle in favor of Milotic either way.

I don't know, more people need to post in this thread. It's pretty evident that we're personally going to be set in our ways about these particular pokemon lol
 
I pretty much disagree with labeling Tyranitar as a bad lead pokemon. That's not to say that I recommend it, but I don't really see a downside to sending it out on turn one. I'm just going to go through the list of pokemon you recommend and share my thoughts on a first turn match up with Tyranitar.

Salamence: Either version, DD or CB, is likely going to Earthquake a threat like Tyranitar in the early going. Most good battlers play it straight for a long time before actually making real predictions. And even if the opposing player wants to take a gamble, Tyranitar is such a threat that they'll probably play it safe. A Fire Blast or HP Flying isn't going to phase Tyranitar too much and a Rock Slide or Ice Beam will be a big blow or OHKO to the opposing Salamence. The way I see it, this opening scenario is an invitation to go to a flying pokemon to absorb the inevitable Earthquake. You don't really "lose" anything and in fact can find out what type of Salamence your opponent has without taking any damage most likely thanks to Sandstream. I see this as kind of a "meh" match up that could go either way based on prediction.

Zapdos: Zapdos is clearly at the disadvantage in this scenario and will either Baton Pass out or switch. This gives the Tyranitar user a lot of options prediction wise. Baton Passing out right away prevents any real stats or Subs being shifted to a more dangerous pokemon.

Aerodactyl: Aero is in a similar situation as Salamence though I think it has a bit more of the upper hand here. Either way, Earthquake is likely coming but any of the other attacks will hit just as hard. Skarmory is a likely switch from the Tyranitar user as well which makes switching to Magneton a good option for the Aero user. Not an ideal match up here.

Gengar: Gengar's main weapon is Hypnosis/Will-O or Destiny Bond in a match up against Tyranitar. I personally hate Gengar so I wouldn't switch out here and I'd be more than willing to eat the Hypnosis/Will-O and Heal Bell it off later. Assuming there isn't a Heal Bell user, I'd be more cautious about using Tyranitar here and realistically this becomes a bad match up.

Tauros/Slaking: Both use similar sets with Choice Band and a bad prediction on turn one results in Tyranitar capitalizing on them, be it through Sub/Punch or Dragon Dance. Flying pokemon are a safe switch turn one, IMO, and this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Jolteon/Ninjask: Neither of these pokemon are an issue for Tyranitar, especially when you've got a Heal Bell pokemon to back up Tar/Jolteon lacks T-Wave.

As for the slow starters..

Milotic: Milo is a bad match up but extremely easy to switch into. Worst case scenario is that the Tyranitar user switches his Blissey into the opponent's switch to something physical.

Metagross/Swampert: Pert counters Tyranitar in general and Metagross is a solid counter in the 1on1 scenario. Both are bad match ups but both are also walled by your bulky water like Suicune or Milotic.

Porygon2: A pretty good match up, especially if you have status removal.

Snorlax: It all depends on the moveset, but at least you won't see Fire Blast turn one since that's too big of a gamble. A pretty safe switch for Skarmory or Gengar without losing much, if any, of an edge.

Venusaur: This is a weird one since I'd imagine enough Salamence starters would prevent people from leading with this. Tyranitar doesn't have much of an edge here, but odds are Sleep Powder is coming from this pokemon so a Sleep Talker/Absorber is a pretty safe switch.

The way I see it, leading with Tyranitar doesn't often put you at a severe disadvantage and if anything you've given your opponent something to think about, especially if you switch out.. "what Tyranitar is it, which counter should I be saving, etc." I think I ended up determining that based on the aforementioned leads Tyranitar was at a slight disadvantage overall but to me that's not enough to warrant a label of "do not start." I'd pretty much just remove Tyranitar from this list since after a large amount of battles, I think you'll end up with a wash in terms of amount of advantages vs disadvantages.
 
I agree with what Carl is saying. I've lead Tyranitar before - there isn't anything wrong with it
 
yeah it's probably best to just take it out, it's pretty "meh" overall as far as leading goes

edit actually the main reason i even consider it was because of you chaos you gave me the team where you lead with it (Quicksand) lol
 
In regards to the likes of Suicune, I wouldn't neccessarily say it's a "Bad" lead, but say something more like "Suicune isn't something you want to be heading off a battle with. You'd usually want to keep the likes of Suicune, Raikou and others until the end of the match without having to use them a lot because their potential to sweep teams from turn one is low, which is what they're designed to do, sweep teams with a set up." While the likes of Salamence, Aerodactyl etc, their main aim is to get a big hit on something early on with their high offensive power. Gengar and Milotic want to hit the opponent with an early status. Suicune and Raikou want to beat things by statting up and taking a while, when the counters are down. They're not forcing a heavy hit on an opposing Pokémon early on with their Unboosted attacking stats, nor are they threatening with status. This is why I'd personally not lead with them.

Jumpman16 vs some dude. Begin!
Jumpman16 sent out I'd switch dude (Lv.100 Salamence)!
some dude sent out Dugtrio (Lv.100 Dugtrio)!
I'd switch dude's Intimidate cuts Dugtrio's Attack!
chaos has started watching.
chaos: you know what jump

Begin Turn #1
Jumpman16 withdrew I'd switch dude!
Jumpman16 sent out SnorlaXBOX (Lv.100 Snorlax)!
---------------------------------
some dude withdrew Dugtrio!
some dude sent out Swampert (Lv.100 Swampert)!
---------------------------------
End of turn #1
Jumpman16's SnorlaXBOX: 501 HP
some dude's Swampert: 100% HP
chaos: if anything i'm fat kenan really
skarm has started watching.

Begin Turn #2
some dude withdrew Swampert!
some dude sent out Skarmory (Lv.100 Skarmory)!
---------------------------------
SnorlaXBOX used Fire Blast!
(62% damage)
It's super effective!
---------------------------------
Skarmory's Leftovers restored its HP a little!
End of turn #2
Jumpman16's SnorlaXBOX: 501 HP
some dude's Skarmory: 44% HP

In regards to this, I think it sucks. I don't think using Dugtrio as an opposing opener is a good idea. Nor do I think the "someone has started watching" etc should be there. Use something that would switch out to Salamence, but not something that's a pretty terrible lead. Maybe change that for something like Breloom?

You could still go Salamnce - Breloom > Swampert for the HP Flying / Fire Blast. Salamence > Snorlax to take the Ice Beam. Skarmory switches into the Fire Blast and opens the game up for Salamence a bit more. Using this example isn't so great though, as it would see their main Salamence counter is Swampert, not Skarmory. So you'd have opened the game up more for Snorlax. But go figure.

I also agree that Tyranitar should be taken off, because it's in no way a "bad lead".

I'll have another proper look at the rest of it when I can.
 
the "someone has started watching" is a light-hearted joke man, lighten up lol. i pretty typed up the entire "log" character for character, chaos would never have said that

i can come up with a better example though, though i purposely picked a "bad lead that people actually used more than than you would have thought". I suppose I don't need to do that if I'm trying to underline the merits of a lead Salamence, though.
 
for the most part it seems good, I agree with mekkah about suicune though. it wins against some of the most common starters and can immediately put pressure on the opponent (no pun intended!). while statting up early game is kind of foolish for a lot of pokemon, suicune can pull it off because of it's bulkyness and general difficulty to counter straight up.
 
for the most part it seems good, I agree with mekkah about suicune though. it wins against some of the most common starters and can immediately put pressure on the opponent (no pun intended!). while statting up early game is kind of foolish for a lot of pokemon, suicune can pull it off because of it's bulkyness and general difficulty to counter straight up.

I don't know if I agree with Suicune statting up right at the beginning though. Maybe if you're using the Sleep Talk variety... otherwise, Spikes need to be setup for Suicune to be really effective.
 
yeah the main reason i'd add suicune is because crocune can indeed set up from the beginning, though i think that advocating that starts to stray away from suicune's merits as a lead anyway
 
what else do people think about alakazam and suicune so i can finish this up, thanks
 
The main disadvantage (for me) when you don't lead with Zam is that because it's so fragile, it doesn't come in so easily. If I don't start with Zam, it tends to become a sitting duck 90% of the time. This is especially if you're using Trick without Recover or something.

Cune doesn't have that disadvantage considering it's sturdy.
 
It seems like Skarmory and Blissey's reasons to not lead are the same, and that it rules out Skarmory's leading capabilities, which is something I wouldn't underestimate.

Don't even think about it.

Skarmory isn't that similar to Blissey in the sense that Skarmory comes in on physical attacks with no harm done, as Blissey eats special threats. I'm not seperating them because of their stats (because it's obvious that Blissey walls special threats far better than Skarmory and physical threats), it's that Skarmory hasn't got an option outside of Rest to heal itself like Blissey can. Also, because Magneton leads are a definate no-no in the metagame, it means that you can lead with Skarmory knowing you have atleast one layer of Spikes out.

Personally, I lead with Skarmory in a certain team; Skarmory, Milotic, Claydol, Celebi, Metagross and Tyranitar - This is because if they have Magneton, I know my Spikes will be out atleast once, maybe twice considering my Skarmory's speed, and if they have Rapid Spin protection in Starmie, Claydol or whatever, I know I'll have to use Skarmory as a physicial wall. With its Rest and my Celebi's Heal Bell support whilst using Tyranitar and Metagross without Spikes to hopefully cause enough damage without their Spikes support.

I know it's not an ideal lead, but it shouldn't ruled out completely (as it says).

Obviously the metagame has changed a little since it was written (and I'm still sure it had its fair share of leads back in the day), but maybe it needs changing a little?
 
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