Metagame On The Radar (Update @ Post #138)

[Untitled Goose]

Gonna put some of my own thoughts first and then respond to stuff.



Honestly, this thing is mostly fine. It’s one of the worst best pokemon 1v1 has ever had. Yes it’s annoying that the easiest way to deal with Hoopa-U is to run a random bug move on a Pokemon, but that’s so far from being the only way to deal with it that the teambuilder pressure is not that extreme. In games, the preview pressure is also way lower than you’d expect, and sure sometimes you go “oh I might have to be careful of random scarf” but most of the time you already have a game plan that can easily deal with all of the potential hoopa-u threats.



Through World Cup / UMPL and the beginning of champs, I’ve been slowly moving towards an”oh yea this shit needs to be banned” for Custap Berry, and it took a while for me to really figure out why. This is because for a lot of 1v1’s history Custap is fine; previous generations and even in earlier SV Custap does not seem egregious. In ORAS/SM for example, Custap really only exists on a few dedicated sets, despite nearly everything being identical mechanics-wise, so why now, does it feel so much more oppressive. The answer is kinda obvious, but the opportunity cost for the item slot is at its absolute lowest now than it has ever been, including since earlier SV.

Right now there are only a handful+ of viable items including the three choice items, Assault Vest, Kee/Maranga, and booster energy, and seldom do any pokemon so desperately need these items to be successful that they would punished for dropping any of them for a huge gain in Custap Berry proc. This leads to more and more pokemon having more and more freedom to risk less for more reward by slotting Custap Berry, even on Pokemon that you’d think it’d be anti-synergistic for. I think this custap Raging Bolt from Kaif is the prime example of this: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen91v1-890972?p2

Custap Berry naturally has such immense value that it can always be just good to run, and it’s now punished less than ever before. That combined with what everyone else has mentioned about the 50/50s, endure shenanigans etc, means I support Banning Custap

 

[Untitled Goose]

The argument against Custap Berry, as said by Frogfacts above, revolves around the idea that it makes teambuilding harder and previews less skillful. I disagree. Sure, if you hallucinate that every single mon on the VR could be Custap, then teambuilding becomes impossible. This, however ignores the fact that running Custap has significant opportunity cost for many Pokemon - so the opponent may just be making their team worse when trying to fish for a Custap surprise. Think about how many mons come to a preview with an unexpected Custap Berry just to not get clicked because they're not a standard set. It goes both ways with Custap.

I think we are rapidly approaching a world where this is more and more realistic. This year alone we have moved on from Pokemon like Ursaluna who would rarely if ever consider running Custap Berry, to Custap Ursa being one of its best sets. And even more recently, we’ve seen a concerning number of non-Custap pokemon run Custap even without a particularly synergistic reason to do so. There were several Custap zapdos and Custap Pecharunts ran in World Cup and UMPL, for a very simple reason living a hit and flipping turn order is a very powerful thing to do and an item slot and move slot is less fundamentally important than stat investment.

nothing has changed abt custap since this post so read it again https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hang-on-custap-berry-suspect.3735811/#post-9964477

Still a mid item

This isn’t actually true though. Things have changed. Pokemon are significantly less tied to their items now then ever before, and this is a direct response to the tiering actions we’ve taken. Don’t get me wrong, I think every ban we’ve made has been the right ban, but without Arch and Regidrago, Assault Vest is a lot weaker. Without Gouging Fire, offensive Pokemon don’t need to go all in on offense to KO it with booster energy or choice items. This all means Custap Berry is getting better and more pokemon are looking to experiment with it and run with it.

 

[LittEleven]

Couldn't really find a good VR so I'm using mine because I think it's reasonable (fsr the real vr has A urshifu when by metrics the pokemon is the best performing in SV since drago ban)

add zapdos volcarona tusk annihilape as you see fit etc, tmk every one of these has been loaded in wc but I don't rate garbage

i think the meta has come to a point where custap disproportionally affects a lot of top tier interactions, custap is unsurprisingly good on a) slow mons b) mid speed mons that can drop speed entirely bc on paper the trade off is a boosting item but in practice you get to adjust your bulk to get an extra hit off ideally (if you are slower than the foe) which is pretty much better than what you can get from any boosting item. Custap is mainly a vessel for Pokemon to drop their speed stat EVs and natures into more useful stats (bulk, +atk natures), but also provides a safety net where you can run it to vibe pass some other mons depending on sequence.

the downside of losing an item is upstaged by the ability to finesse and introduce doubt in games practically. wc building was hard when you had to make sure your teams didnt try to 50/50 a call vs luna or hoopa e.g or introduce variability to the matchup beyond a reasonable sequence. Custap to us forced a lot of suboptimal sets to be run which sucked to slave away in the builder for. If your focus in 1v1 is not building Custap is a fun item and it comes into reading on previews, but if your focus is on building solid teams Custap is untenable to keep in the back of your mind constantly unless your opponent does not adapt regularly. LCQ / US vs World had important custap swings and I think as people keep labbing it's bound to push the tier even harder into being the fishfest that it currently is. Ban Custap if you care about building SV and will in the coming years.

Hoopa is fine to me, I am pro suspect because I think it's good to get meta clarity on a defining mon but I am agnostic to the result of the Hoopa ban. Hoopa-less SV would not really change much wrt structures minus dropping cheese ways to beat it IME because its strength is flipping every mu and the current state of the tier doesnt really involve you running IRONCLAD answers to hoopa just to beat it, splitting its counters across different mons in a team is fine and good. I would have to be convinced that Hoopa is a real problem in the builder numerically to feel otherwise.

 

[DreamPrince]

I am in favour of suspecting Hoopa-U. My issue with Hoopa-U is that is far too unpredictable. Its wide movepool and ability to run multiple sets ranging from Assault Vest to Life Orb with either offensive or defensive spreads. One might think that slapping a Bug or Fairy type move or Pokemon might be an answer, but is not that simple. Hoopa can either run an AV set with Gunk Shot to demolish slower Fairy types like Primarina, or use Fire Punch to destroy Scizor. I've also seen Custap Berry to live a hit and then retaliate with coverage against like Talonflame and Great Tusk. It can even run a Tanga Berry set to lure and defeat Volcarona, the best Bug in 1v1. Speaking of Defense, its very hard to use strategies like Substitute and Protect because its moves bypass those counterplay like Hyperspace Fury and Psychic Noise, making it hard to manage defensively, if not outright impossible.