Metagame On The Radar (Update @ Post #94)

[recti]

i was like brr when we first started a discussion on hoopa unbound but i was bored and decided to ladder and i found that it is damn good
with busted stats agle to run both physical and special moves so it already has a heck of coverage and with a A typing its damn good seriousely
who runs bug types that arent scizor which gets bopped with fire punch oh and fairies=2=syleon and valiant which sucks now so no word for you valiant and azu which is medio what is the worst thing that can happen to a sylveon into a hoopa answer is gunk shot to the face but in theory if you use enarmous and springstide storm it wins......disapponting right?
pair it with gren and gholdengo and boom good almost good as gold oh yu might think im saying hoopa is busted without a proper calc
40 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 80 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 359-424 (102.2 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO to your face
40 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Azumarill: 317-374 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO less chance but hey we win most of the time
40 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 180+ Def Iron Valiant: 286-338 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO use my boy vliant
it wins
btw it loses to wake?
216 SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Hyper Beam vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 298-351 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO use wake it wins too
200+ SpA Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO oh wait it doesent ohko my boy hoopa la goat
252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 175-207 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
40 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 229-270 (60.5 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO vs gholdengo
vs gren
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 347-409 (115.2 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
rip hoopa use my boy gren
it is a top tier threat and btw if you run bug coverage r you really wasting a move slot for hoopa i would rather get 3-0 in a tour game vs hoopa than running occa scizzor

i think the conclusion with hoopa is its worse necrozma in ss we took too long to ban nec that it rekt the meta and i cant believe it wasnt quick banned but yeah if this gets out of control its gonna be painful


meloeta uhh this is a threat but second only to hoopa so more on that later

 

[LittEleven]

i think people worry about this mon to an unhealthy degree atp and setguessing this is a nightmare given it has tools to stop a lot of mons
faster bug move/ strong physical move is a little flawed because hoopa can run scarf forcing other pokemon with u-turn (see: zarude, stuff like gren needs investment to even kill max hp) to be true counter clicks (regardless of how rare scarf is)
i think it's healthier to see it gone but i don't mind it staying
suspect????


frog go brr
i don't think it's in hoopa's shadow per se because of its versatility but i didn't find sets worth running bar specs hydro because I feel you don't need the higher speed tier in this meta; so it feels like a one-trick. specs gren has a lot of builder counters, the issue is when you make every other set realistic. this thing is horrid to face in the builder but i think you're limited in what you can do with this mon before that time .
atm, i would dnb/wait for the future


pretty busted, its sets are absurdly good into the current format
it's not polarizing by far but it has few real counters unless you rigorously benchmark for it. immune to status moves is pretty broken too cause you bulk the right side and have recover that's unstoppable.
i would ban but that's a hot take, maybe; given how easy it is to put on teams with "healthy" sets for the meta. maybe suspect, but it's broken in a non-obvious sense so i doubt that would help either. i think not using a gholdengo set to fill your needs is going to be rare given how good of a mon it can be and it's not very accountable for in the builder; i have no idea what I'd do with the mon exactly. it was a lot more bannable prehome because it was super strong on its own merits and forced very strong mons to be used in order to beat it (e.g band tusk); here that's not the case but it's a really good mon to slap everywhere.

tangent aside: my personal verdict is ban

not mentioned but:

yeah this is a pretty busted mon and it's likely you'd see this qbed down the road esp if hoopa is gone. feels annoying vs but gladly i think it has to run bulkier sets so you don't see relic song proc matter as much cause specs hyperbeam is usually the click.
look at seriously after tiering, esp with possibly a lack of hoop/ghold

/ dire claw:
the combination of a pokemon that semi consistently goes first (normal gem fake out), and a move that has a chance to cheese is unfun to play but it's not broken in the slightest, 22% to sleep or para -> full para is less than a flinch move
it's deceptively bulky because you don't have to run speed and you can bulk stuff like specs ghold MIR if you really want to beat that specific set, e.g
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 224 SpD Sneasler: 307-363 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
32+ Atk Sneasler Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 160-190 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
plus you can use bulk up sets, sd sets and even endure reversal along side a relevant berry to use it
cool mon, dire claw feeling uncompet but unbannable is truly a smogon tiering policy moment
don't touch unless we can ban dire claw, it's fine

 

[DripLegend]

With the release of the Teal Mask DLC there have been countless amounts of new and returning pokemon finding their place in the metagame. The Council has been watching developments closely, and would like to bring attention to two pokemon that have been making a huge impact in the current metagame. Those two being Snorlax, and Ogerpon-Cornerstone. We would like to open up more discussion before planning for a potential voting slate in the next couple of days.


Ogerpon-Cornerstone is unique in the fact that it is the first pokemon to have the move Leech Seed as well as the ability Sturdy. It has an excellent speed tier of base 110 as well, which allows it to be a great speed trap and beat most opposing pokemon slower than it. Ogerpon's mask also gives it 1.2x damage on all attacks, facilitating strong STAB options like Ivy Cudgel and Power Whip. The mask prevents being tricked, which shuts down most common counterplay to Leech Seed playstyles. Ogerpon notably has great flexibility in moveslots, being able to run great utility moves like Taunt, Encore, Counter, and Spiky Shield to skew a large amount of matchups in its favor. Ogerpon is insanely splashable with most teammates being able to make the moveslots on Ogerpon semi-ambiguous as well. While it does have reliable answers, accounting for the variability and utility options in the builder is a lot to prep for and its speed stat nullifies would-be answers semi-automatically.


Snorlax has returned along with the same old tricks it has seen use of in the previous generation. Now that Custap Berry has returned alongside it, Belly Drum has been able to come back in full force, while still having access to Encore. Snorlax also has many other great options to choose from like Choice Band and Stall which make it difficult to fully answer all sets at the same time. It has great common matchups with amazing bulk and coverage that allows it to pick and choose what exact matchups it wants to win with specific sequencing. It can be extremely limiting to build answers that consistently win against all sets without making the counter worse as a whole.

The current plan is to leave discussion open until 11:59 PM GMT-5 Thursday but discussion can stay open as longer if need be. Anyone playing the tier should post their thoughts, even if it is a common opinion Council is always looking to the community we serve for input on the metagame. As always be respectful since flaming people gets you nowhere, feel free to reference the current Tiering Policy Framework when making arguments, and any one liners will be deleted.

 

[Mishlef]

Snorlax losing Darkest Lariat makes it incredibly susceptible to counterplay and I don’t think it should be banned

No opinion on cornerstone

 

[Itchy]

Snorlax with Encore and Gluttony Custap Berry + Belly Drum is broken again, who could have predicted this!!!! It does the same stuff it did in SS, Darkest Lariat is barely a factor, just 3 sets (Band Custap Defensive) and you win against p much the entire metagame (very fun). Only really struggles to beat demon #2 below and a few niche mons


Ogrepon-C is also broken imo. It's a Leech Seed staller with Sturdy, immune to Trick, has Encore for weak speed control, has speed control moves of its own, et cetera. Sure it has some opportunity cost (lax does as well) but realistically neither is balanced by that alone. I don't think it's just that we've had nothing like it; it's obnoxiously restricting. This guy is not quite Snorlax level but shouldn't stick around imo


Regidrago is more on the unhealthy rather than strictly broken, but this guy has an absurd impact on picking bc there are only a handful of mus not just decided by the type chart. Scale Shot Drago returning makes this so much worse than pre-DLC. Go ladder with Ninetales-A + Drago + Lax/a fire type and tell me that this guy is fine, I dare you. Don't act on Drago until both of the other guys are gone tho, not nearly on their level in terms of broken-ness

 

[DripLegend]

god building with this mon is disgusting. it beats so much so easily and there's really nothing healthy about it imo. building counters for this consistently is some of the least fun i've had playing the tier and it still has all the tools it needs even without random coverage like lariat. my preferable route would probably be QB since we have a circuit tour in 1v1 masters ongoing, as well as team tours like HPL and UMPL. I'm aware that tiering based on tournaments is often a rushed way to proceed in tiering, but this mon is doing the opposite of what we hope to gain from tournament play and stagnating the metagame, the likes of which hasn't been seen this gen imo. it's a ridiculous mon to account for while building that will only lead to warping the metagame longer as we proceed on.


fiona is also super annoying but i'm slightly giving it the benefit of the doubt since we have whole ass snorlax here too. this thing is also amazing, and as i stated previously, is able to basically blanket check anything slower than it with the great combination of encore, counter, taunt, spiky shield leech stall, and all of it's attacking moves getting a huge 1.2x for no reason. whenever u click into this thing it's less of a "yeah i beat this" and more of a "ok if it's this utility move i lose so i'll just hope it isn't". like even counters that would be fine like cb low sweep annihilape struggle with beating oger after spiky shield chip + power whip. i don't think this will be good for the tier either and want it gone pretty soon as well, but idk how hot that take is. also QB if i had to make a decision off the bat but this this could be suspect-worthy instead? haven't seen any oger defenders yet so probably not the hottest take (or is it?? pls say shit in the thread lmfao the same 6 people making their own echochambers isn't exactly helpful in gauging community wide tiering questions like these).

these aren't officially otr but people have been mentioning them

got scale shot back and already promoted fairy heavy meta predlc, wouldn't mind looking at it later personally since being able to coinflip half of all previews is gross.

it's still good. still does val things. invalidating choice items isn't the most healthy but the counters to val are diverse in themselves, which is something most people that want it banned overlook (unlike things like drago that basically just lose to fairies

definitely a dark horse that everyone was scared about, wouldn't be surprised for this to be broken in a couple weeks but atm it's a dark type in a gen with some of the best fairies. want to see more sets made before i completely form an opinion on it though

idk might be bad for the meta might be good. need more time with it here for me to form complete thoughts on it, a lot of good mons run protect which is bad for it but relying on those mons to keep custap in check is not something healthy so it's something to keep an eye on for sure going forward

 

[BigChuchu]

I only play (an unhealthy amount of) ladder games so not sure how valuable my opinion is, but here we go.

looks fierce on paper but is actually quite shy on ladder. It tends to stay on the bench if you have a fighting or Prankster mon on preview. And considering how common fighting mons are, in particular its best counter Annihilape... Remove Custap Berry and it becomes even less threatening. I'd definitely go for a suspect test soon, but not a quickban.

Holy shit this thing is broken. It's like having a Focus Sash and a Life Orb (without the recoil damage!) at the same time, with a good typing and a movepool that has it all: nuke moves, cheese, recovery, priority, counter, encore... Quickban.

I hate this thing but I'm not articulate enough to formulate a proper argument. I just find it unfair. I'd rather ban this than Snorlax.

 

[LittEleven]

makes it near mandatory to setguess it on preview, most mons that would beat custap drum encore don't have a good sequence to do so that wouldn't auto lose to cb or chople counter. custap drum has really low opportunity cost to run at the moment (ladder) and the other two just exist to make life harder. Has a fair bit of counterplay for its individual sets, but is really constricting to account for in the builder.


delete ivy cudgel ffs. very easy to pick into current usage and has flexible movesets that let it deal with most of the tier (spiky shield leech seed, trailblaze/rock tomb encore, sd 3 attack, counter encore) to name a few

would support qbing both mons unless further opinions change my mind,

ruins some form of skill expression but im not very against its existence atm, definitely can be overboard on some mons and adds a 50/50 element to some matchups but don't have anything against it as far as balance goes. there's an abundance of taunt / encore / protect in the tier already and it isn't as weird to see for me. enables jank but i'm neutral on it


bit underwhelming vs new toy syndrome, new fairies (1 viable) are being used and i dont think its very hype in current meta. could still be broken + custap gives it an additional set to troll with so let's see

don't see obvious partners for it that enable it to run non obvious sets on preview, feels like a weird fusion of spect/gren, not hype enough rn

pretty good but not really broken, its sets (chesto, sitrus stall, tail glow custap) feel viable in the current day but the last isn't oppressive to bench for, and stall has its own drawbacks in the meta. overall cool mon for sure but not evidently broken

had a bunch of fun laddering with broken mons, lax ogerpon e.g generates lots of multiple 2-1 previews and makes it feel easier to pick sets. hope you find fun laddering with them while legal too!

 

[bern]

hi

ban

ban

there's really not much to say about these two, they are simply overpowered and that's it, unless you wanna ban custap lax is leaving, and similarly to hoopa-u, your team sucks if it can't handle them reliably. not much to say about cornerstone either, subseed isn't the only set, with so many good and versatile options, both should be qb'd soon.

extra mons:
super duper versatile, might be bannable idk.

got scale shot, after bans it might just force fairies on every team just like post-home, not op but unhealthy, prob suspect?

always good, not sure if broken rn

speed creep might've actually gotten to it, with the prevalence of fairies as well, might be busted but not sure either.

uhhh yeah idk, this item has been discussed for a ban for years (usually by room randoms), personally i'd ban but people have extremely varying opinions on this topic.

 

[Vertigo]

This one feels like a no-brainer but it does the same things it did in SS and seems just as stupid, losing Darkest Lariat doesn't really make it manageable and unless you accurately setguess and are prepared for it you just lose. There are some answers now like or but even these can lose to so I think it's for the better if it goes.


Alright this one really is stupid, obviously hard to have the full picture since the mon dropped a week ago and there haven't really been crazy opportunities to test besides serial laddering but it forces you to either use check with Rock Tomb/Trailblaze, and if the opposing does as well then it's straight up a coinflip. If you do not have on your team then you must have another kind of answer to it which could be a Mold Breaker mon such as or , but the former puts you at a disadvantage if you so happen to click into and the latter just puts you at a disadvantage in general because it's not really that good otherwise even if it gets some matchups. Leech Seed sets were the most common on ladder in the first few days but it has so many options with great offensive coverage like Play Rough, Zen Headbutt, Knock Off/Throat Chop, Low Kick/Low Sweep, as well as access to Taunt and Encore while having a very good Speed tier. Not having an item slot is not even remotely an issue and if this isn't dealt with ASAP the entire metagame will just revolve around this thing.


There is ongoing discussion about those too but so far they haven't really felt like they warrant immediate action. I still think they should be at least monitored especially after we deal with the two above.


l2p

 

[Fancy1]

i think the community for the most part feels the same abt what goes and what doesn’t.


has no 4mss despite having a plethora of viable moves in which you can pick and choose to beat a whole of the meta game. fast sturdy with encore counter spiky leech sub protect priority speed lowering methods to beat even more mons and a fucking boost to all moves (even its already powerful stabs) for what reason???? this thing is broken, has like 0 opportunity cost please ban it (after masters week ends tho please ty)


this thing is just really fucking bulky (adheres to all its sets) custap drum encore is insane and can pick which attacks it wants to run. and even when it matches into fightings on preview chople counter exists and band asw, making it a set guess (which is hard when all sets are viable) im not sure if it needs to go yet but I definitely think an eye is kept on it


already good, scale shot made it better.
but in such a fairy dominated metagame a lot of teams end up winning without even realizing (val spam, sylv spam, educated refined tink spam) it’s still good ofc but definitely not close to ban worthy


drago reasoning basicallly. trick disable is interesting i don’t really have enough experience vs it to give an in-depth opinion on it, but I think drips sentiment of waiting for more meta and set development is the play


the big c. i dont really know what to think of this as of now. a big buff to slower defensive set up mons like sylvs hoodra lax (:boar-head-exploding:) mana etcetc I definitely think it has heavy potential to be broken but idt a quick ban is justifiable, take some time, wait for a suspect.


dodged the radar

 

[RTM]

ban

ban

ban not the most pressing issue rn but just get rid of it lmao, has been the best mon since gholdengo was banned again and is rlly unhealthy for the meta! (you cannot run choice items at all). I saw drips argument and that's fair but at the same time it feels like things are running sets which are drastically different to what they'd want to run just to beat val, unless they naturally beat it like sylv. Its also really versatile and doesn't have any true counters (even sylv).

keep the decision on this will actually a big deciding point in the meta whether it turns into the tech-fest that is ss or be more similar to pre dlc (zzz) . Only really in the limelight rn because snorlax abuses it. I'd rather see sv turn out being ss with different mons rather then the stale mess it was before.

 

[DripLegend]

Its also really versatile and doesn't have any true counters (even sylv).

how does sylv ever lose this? it's like the one true answer imo (most fairies and fires don't lose if they're not choiced you just have to ev for all sets instead of auto assuming people only run encore)

 

[bo_bobson27]

how does sylv ever lose this? it's like the one true answer imo (most fairies and fires don't lose if they're not choiced you just have to ev for all sets instead of auto assuming people only run encore)

some bs about endure weakness policy
+2 252+ Atk Iron Valiant Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
personally i run kebia sylv

 

[DripLegend]

some bs about endure weakness policy
+2 252+ Atk Iron Valiant Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
personally i run kebia sylv

or quick attack now that custap is back but np

 

[fruan]

just hopping by.

My new favorite mon. It has 2 incredibly strong sets, which I'm sure most ppl know by now:
Leech stall, which is also super funny with counter as a fourth move because u beat pokemon that hit you with weak physical moves to beat sturdy.
Counter encore + 2 attacks is also epic, should be self explanatory.
These 2 sets make it strong enough u can semi-viably run cteam sets also with more attacks like low kick for lax, rock tomb/trailblaze for encore speed control, etc. Prolly the most bannable mon atm. While we do have tools to beat it reliably (icicle spear, scale shot, mold breaker, spectrier, etc) and unreliably (sitrus sylv, rindo urshifu, flame charge heatran, etc) I think it puts an unnecessary burden on teambuilding and playing.

I really haven't used it that much so deferring to people that know what they're talking about regarding this.

Imo its a super painful item in 1v1. Kinda hard to show its broken or unhealthy but drastically changes the mu chart of every mon. Personally if it didn't exist I'd be super happy but thats due to my specific teambuilding bias.

Everything else is either fine or I haven't really tried so withholding judgement.

 

[RTM]

ban

ban

ban not the most pressing issue rn but just get rid of it lmao, has been the best mon since gholdengo was banned again and is rlly unhealthy for the meta! (you cannot run choice items at all). I saw drips argument and that's fair but at the same time it feels like things are running sets which are drastically different to what they'd want to run just to beat val, unless they naturally beat it like sylv. Its also really versatile and doesn't have any true counters (even sylv).

keep the decision on this will actually a big deciding point in the meta whether it turns into the tech-fest that is ss or be more similar to pre dlc (zzz) . Only really in the limelight rn because snorlax abuses it. I'd rather see sv turn out being ss with different mons rather then the stale mess it was before.

I know these mons (, ) are certainly being banned but I would like to propose a quickban before the weekend ends. This would let next round of masters, umpl and hpl be cornerstone and lax free, allowing for actual creative building and the formation of a non-temporary meta. Get a move on!!

 

[clerica]

I would like to propose a quickban before the weekend ends.

ok

 

[Itchy]

​

The 1v1 council would like to hear thoughts about Necrozma, Hoopa-U, Meloetta, and Cinderace. Which, if any, should be voted on (again) for a quickban? Should any be suspect tested? Are some not an issue currently? Let us know your thoughts. Feel free to post more general thoughts about the meta as well, since it is still early on in this meta. Depending on what gets posted in this thread, there may be another quickban slate, or a suspect starting this weekend. The informal, flexible deadline for this discussion is end of the day on Friday. If you need more time, or if there's still discussion happening past then, the thread will stay open

 

[Potatochan]

i think they're fine

 

[BigChuchu]

• Necrozma: busted exclusive moves, can run both physical and special sets, huge movepool, tanky af => SUSPECT.
• Hoopa-U: powerful but might see less usage if Necrozma and Meloetta are gone? Wasn't quickbanned last time so no reason to do it now => DNB (yet) but re-assess on next slate.
• Meloetta: not seen enough on ladder to judge. But because it was quickbanned last time => SUSPECT.
• Cinderace: not sure what to think about it but since it was quickbanned before => SUSPECT.

 

[RTM]

No point delaying the inevitable imo, qb all, especially melo and cinder. Hoopa may be the only one who could stay around for a suspect but would get banned in that anyway prob.

 

[Fancy1]

has tons of options in builder and can run physical/special/setup/choice really effectively + broken ability makes checks and counters really specific QB
^ practically same slightly worse necro still broken QB
has been harboring off the psychic spam brought by necro and melo I think the meta should develop more without the two to see if hoopa will remain as good as it is now suspect
amazing coverage power and speed tier for the meta QB

 

[crucify]

i ban and suspect, might have to go later but not rn. is not as strong as it was when it was last suspected with the new mons so dnb. i will expand on reasoning forif the council actually entertains suspecting it.

 

[Marshme1to]

ban melo cinder and then necro, it’s inevitable that it’s gonna be broken too, keep hoopa for now but it might still have to go eventually. When we start running u turn hearth flame. Suspect regidrago
Np