Metagame On The Radar

[Boat]

In an effort to improve transparency and give the community a better idea of the council's current feelings on the metagame, we've decided to open an "On The Radar" thread. This thread will also serve as a place for members of the community to give their input on the metagame. This does not mean that immediate action will be taken against the topics of discussion, but the goal is to ensure that the council and the community are on the same page. Before you post, please carefully consider whether your post belongs in Metagame Discussion or in this thread. Posts about metagame trends and new innovations belong in Metagame Discussion. Posts about the health of the metagame from a tiering perspective belong in On The Radar.

We'll get things started with a discussion about Jirachi. This should come as no surprise; Mimikyu and Jirachi have been the two foremost threats in 1v1 since the departure of Necrozma, and with Mimikyu gone, it's time to turn to the other dominant threat. Jirachi has many excellent qualities that makes it so effective; a deep movepool, high levels of bulk, and good speed give Jirachi several effective sets that are difficult to differentiate on team preview. The most notable of these sets is certainly Choice Scarf, but recent innovations such as Cosmic Power, Calm Mind, and Weakness Policy bypass each others counters and all serve to improve its unpredictability and effectiveness.

It is unclear what 1v1 will look like without Mimikyu, and it's difficult to tell whether Jirachi will continue to have such high usage without it present. Waiting until the metagame has settled before taking action could resolve this. However, the first DLC is quickly coming, and banning Jirachi only to need to re-test it post-DLC could prove time consuming and tedious. Additionally, because of the timeframe of Ladder Tour, waiting for the DLC is the only way we could suspect Jirachi publically; the only action we can take against Jirachi before the DLC is a quickban. Speaking of, there is an argument to be had that Jirachi has already proven itself bannable, and that the council should quickban it now.

Please keep the conversation in this thread civil and respectful; arguing and flaming doesn't bring us any closer to resolving the problems that will be brought up in this thread, and won't be tolerated. One liners will be deleted.

 

[dogknees]

Quick post, but I want to talk about how mimikyu's departure allows for greater viability in mons that have the capacity to deal with scarf or setup jirachi. Pokemon like hydreigon, dragapult, mandibuzz, whimsicott, aegislash, chandelure, rotom-heat and centiskorch are all pokemon that benefit from mimikyu's ban in one way or another that also have the capacity to check certain jirachi sets. This doesn't solve the overarching problem of jirachi being able to break past its checks / counters with RNG or that setup sets can be extremely variable depending on team compositions and what it needs to beat, but the fact that we have more viable options should at the very least encourage further metagame development and possibly see if jirachi can settle in the tier as an amazing threat rather than a broken one. I don't like jirachi in the current metagame state, but the current metagame is still reminiscent of mimikyu's influence and hasn't allowed for much development. I agree that if a ban were to take place it'd have to be a quickban, but i'd be careful about how quickly these decisions can be made. The meta hasn't changed much yet and at the very least needs some time to adjust.

 

[STABLE]

I'll make a future, longer post about how Jirachi consists a tier 3 violation in the metagame but as of right now I only wanna say that I am pro Jirachi quickban.
Suspecting it is somewhat pointless at this point in time since all the odds show that it's gonna get banned (general opinion is that it's ban-worthy) and imho will not need to be re-suspected into the game.
It has all the tools a Pokemon would ever need to become very good and even without Serene Grace Jirachi would still be very strong.
Some people might argue that it could generate controversy among some players but, simply put, it should not really be a concern as long as it constitutes a healthy change to the metagame.

 

[Notater]

I agree with the calls for a Jirachi quickban. Scarf alone is a very good set that has come under fire for relying on Iron Head flinch RNG, and when that alone has many variants with different checks, and the stall sets have entirely different checks, Jirachi ends up broken with its sheer variety of top-tier sets. The existence of such techs as Charm for Incineroar helps to exemplify this---unlike something like Gen 7 Dragonite, whose techs such as Choice Band for Magearna necessitated giving up a lot of matchups, running Charm on stall Jirachi has almost no opportunity cost while beating what was once a reliable counter to all sets. Jirachi should be quickbanned for this reason, although after either the first or second DLC it should be considered for a retest as the increased power creep may let the tier deal with it more easily and without bending over backwards to check a single threat.

 

[IBM]

Let’s do a classic look at how Jirachi stacks up against VR. This is including the main two Jirachi movesets found in usage: Scarf and Stall, and assuming Jirachi gets one flinch. I’m only saying one Jirachi set that beats each of these, but the sets overlap in what they beat quite often.

Blue = Win
Red = Lose

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar - Scarf wins

A+ Rank
Sylveon - Scarf wins

A Rank
Arcanine - Stall wins
Crustle - Scarf wins
Dracovish - Stall wins
Dragapult - Scarf wins
Primarina - Stall wins

A- Rank
Corsola-Galar - Stall wins
Corviknight - Scarf wins
Haxorus - Scarf wins
Mandibuzz - Scarf wins
Sawk - Scarf wins
Whimsicott - Scarf wins

B+ Rank
Aegislash - Jirachi loses unless it tricks against weakness policy aegislash
Aromatisse - Stall wins
Avalugg - Stall wins
Cinderace - Jirachi loses
Hydreigon - Scarf wins, moonblast
Incineroar - Jirachi loses
Kommo-o - Scarf wins
Kyurem - Scarf wins
Rillaboom - Stall wins
Rotom-Wash - 50/50 with both mons having a scarf and stall possibility
Togekiss - Rachi wins
Zeraora - Zen headbutt flinch wins

B Rank
Chandelure - Jirachi loses
Conkeldurr - Stall wins
Diggersby - Rachi needs 2 iron head flinches
Excadrill - Rachi loses
Gastrodon - Stall wins
Golisopod - Stall wins
Milotic - Stall wins
Rhyperior - Rachi loses
Rotom-Heat - Rachi loses to scarf
Snorlax - Scarf wins
Steelix - Stall wins
Tyranitar - Scarf wins

B- Rank
Bewear - Jirachi loses
Blastoise - Stall wins
Celebi - Scarf wins
Centiskorch - Jirachi loses
Dracozolt - Stall wins
Duraludon - Stall wins
Durant - Stall wins
Gardevoir - Scarf wins
Gengar - Scarf wins
Goodra - Stall wins
Grimmsnarl - Rachi loses
Gyarados - Thunderbolt 3% usage? We’ll give this one to gyara
Keldeo - Scarf wins
Type: Null - Trick rest wins
Weezing-Galar - Stall wins

C+ Rank
Cloyster - Stall wins
Darmanitan - Rachi loses
Ferrothorn - Stall wins
Rotom-Mow - 50/50 same as rotom wash
Silvally - Stall wins unless we started using silvally dark
Terrakion - Scarf wins
Togedemaru - Stall wins
Toxapex - Stall wins
Toxtricity - Zen headbutt flinch
Venusaur - Stall wins

C Rank
Alcremie - Scarf wins
Appletun - Stall wins
Bisharp - Rachi loses
Cofagrigus - Scarf wins
Copperajah - Stall wins
Crawdaunt - Rachi loses
Dubwool - Stall wins
Gigalith - Scarf wins
Hitmonlee - Rachi loses - Hi Nalei n_n
Inteleon - Rachi loses
Mamoswine - Scarf wins
Ninetales-Alola - Scarf wins
Obstagoon - Rachi loses
Reuniclus - Scarf wins
Scrafty - Rachi loses
Umbreon - Scarf wins
Vaporeon - Rachi loses

C- Rank
Araquanid - Stall wins
Charizard - Rachi loses
Cobalion - Stall wins
Drifblim - Stall wins
Eiscue - Scarf wins
Hippowdon - Stall wins
Ludicolo - Stall wins
Mudsdale - Stall wins
Ninetales - Rachi loses
Pyukumuku - Stall wins, unaware doesn’t ignore stored power bp
Sirfetch'd - Scarf wins
Torkoal - Rachi loses
Tsareena - Stall wins
Virizion - Scarf wins
Weavile - Scarf wins

D Rank
Drampa - Rachi loses
Eldegoss - Stall wins
Espeon - Scarf wins
Hatterene - Scarf wins
Indeedee-Female - Scarf wins
Orbeetle - Scarf wins
Quagsire - Stall wins, unaware doesn’t ignore stored power bp
Sudowoodo - Scarf wins
Trevenant - I don’t know what set this runs and you don’t either. To be safe we won’t count it towards wins
Vikavolt - Stall wins
Wishiwashi - Stall wins

Jirachi wins 78 / 105 Matchups in VR and two 50/50s. It beats 74.28% of the metagame with just two sets. Tell me how you haven’t quickbanned this thing already

 

[DEG]

Magnificent piece of art done by DEG

Nyahallo LOVELY 1V1 COMMUNITY :3 1v1 esteemed ex-RO, ex-Global driver, ex-council member that hasn't played since 2015 here and today I'm present to talk about the wish-giving Pokemon Jirachi! haha wish it got banned xD!

Like Mimikyu's last post I do believe Jirachi deserve to be a ban, and thus I will be analyzing a scientific research done by Lkjc to talk about the reason Jirachi should be banished from the 1v1 realm. Is Jirachi really broken? First we are going to analyze Lkjc post tm, then we're going to talk about the strain Jirachi causes on teambuilding and the toxic unpredictability it holds.

To begin, my dear partner lkjc said that that Jirachi wins 78 out of 105 Pokemon in the Viability Rankings which translates to roughly 75% of Pokemon. The number 75% is higher than 50% which is an important problem that should be addressed. 75% means that a super majority of Pokemon lose to Jirachi which is extremely unhealthy and that is caused by only two (2) sets meaning that Jirachi specifically causes strain on teambuilding.

With that being said, I can affirm that Jirachi limits teambuilding, which following the suspect's philosophy, is unhealthy for the esteemed 1v1 metagame. People are forced to run Pokemon that can hit it super effectively (Even though it can live it) or outspeed it and hit it super effectively, easy right? No. Let's not forget that this Pokemon boast an amazing Psychic/Steel typing which leaves it weak to a select few Pokemon in the metagame such as Incineroar, Mandibuzz, Aegislash..., and building specifically with such limited pool of Pokemon is the reason it causes strain on teambuilding. And this is where the problem begins, Jirachi can beat all of its counters by some ways. Jirachi most used set is Choice Scarf Iron Head and Zen Headbutt ,which coupled with Serene Grace, can flinch its counters notably Arcanine, Cinderace, and Incineroar as seen in the art above. Meanwhile its other popular set Calm Mind can utilize moves such as Thunderbolt which defeats Corviknight, and Mandibuzz. This gives us an idea that Jirachi can run multiple sets with little to not opportunity cost since the Calm Mind set can, in fact, beat most of the Pokemon that the Choice Scarf set does.

This puts us in front a judgment that Jirachi should be banned because it has little counters and wraps the metagame around it. But now the respectable, esteemed Sword and Shield Council is put in front of one of their hardest test ever, should they ban Jirachi? If Yes, how? Well, my genius-self would like to give our esteemed Council some of my experience in this 6 years of frequenting this Forum specialized in the discussion of a Pokemon simulator called Pokemon Showdown!tm and would like to advance the idea to quick ban Jirachi as soon as possible during the Ladder Tournament inc because we do not have time to conduct a suspect test and because it is clearly broken. It can be re-suspected after the money grabbing move of the Downloadable Content coming soon.

Thank you for listening, have a nice day! :)

 

[SiceXV]

To comment on lkjc's post:

rachi can beat Crawdaunt, Rhyperior, Vaporeon, diggersby, inteleon, and bewear btw.

200 SpA Jirachi Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 231-273 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Loses to shuca)

200 SpA Jirachi Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Crawdaunt: 264-312 (98.8 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (eball is a 70% chance)

252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Jirachi: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (lmao loses to special rachi)

Diggersby loses to special shuca unless scarfed.

Inteleon you need one zen headbutt flinch if it's not scarfed.

Vapereon is weird and it's an auto loss against stall if u don't have fake tears.

Whims beat rachi idk why you gave scarf the win

I don't count torkol, ninetails, or drampa either because why would anyone actually use those

So realistically you have 14 mons that can constantly beat rachi and only half of them are good (incin, darm, gyrados, cinderace, scorch, whims, aeig, chandy, and heat) and it's one of the easiest mons to build a bait team around.

I love rachi meta.

 

[Ginger Princess]

Incoming one liner from corrupt auth:

Enough with the one liners, we're all trying to have a serious discussion about the tiering in the metagame. If you don't wish to contribute anything meaningful, you don't need to post it, and we've already asked for such in the OP. Anything past this will be infracted.

 

[Waylaid]

Hey, SwSh 1v1 main Waylaid here, ready to talk about why we should quickban rachi.

At this point, it's pretty clear that at LEAST a suspect test is inevitable. Maybe council will try and prolong it to post-DLC drop to make sure that we're not quickbanning a mon that would be checked by several DLC threats. In this post, I'd like to reflect upon why postponing a suspect is useless, and why a quickban makes the most sense.

Rachi is broken. See posts above for proof of this. In the current meta, it absolutely deserves a quickban, and nobody is arguing otherwise. But would it be less broken with DLC?
Tl;dr: no. It won't be.

These are the DLC mons being added to SwSh in the first expansion:

mons

Galarian Slowpoke
Galarian Slowbro
Galarian Slowking
Larvesta
Volcarona
Horsea
Seadra
Kingdra
Dedenne
Rockruff
Lycanroc
Bulbasaur
Ivysaur
Squirtle
Wartortle
Magnemite
Magneton
Magnezone
Happiny
Chansey
Blissey
Regice
Regirock
Registeel
Galarian Slowpoke
Galarian Slowbro
Galarian Slowking
Amaura
Auroras
Nidoran (Male)
Nidorino
Nidoking
Spheal
Sealeo
Walrein
Gible
Gabite
Garchomp
Zubat
Golbat
Crobat
Elekid
Electabuzz
Azurill
Marill
Azumarill
Beldum
Metang
Metagross
Zorua
Zoroark
Cryogonal
Fletchling
Fletchinder
Talonflame
Kubfu (Unk)
Urshifu (Unk)
Galarian Articuno (unk)
Galarian Moltres (unk)
Galarian Zapdos (unk)
Calyrex (Unk)
Entei
Suicune
Raikou
Uxie
Mesprit
Azelf
Tornadus
Thundurus
Landorus
Zygarde
Tapu Koko (unsure, probably comes down to flinches/predicts)
Tapu Lele
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Fini
Latias
Latios
Cresselia

I've crossed out the mons that rachi can easily beat without too much reliance on undiscovered tech. The ones that seem like counters at first glace have been colored blue. Let me know if you'd like to disagree or add on to this hitlist; it is by no means objective fact in the coming SwSh meta. As you can see, it doesn't seem that the dominant force that is rachi is taking too hard of a hit in the next expansion. If we expect the following expansions to balance rachi, fine, but it seems improbable that rachi will ever be balanced in the SwSh meta. Let's do everyone a favor, council, and quickban this pokemon now in anticipation of a healthy DLC meta. A suspect would just confirm what we already know. It would also take much too long, as council would have to wait until after LT has been completed/the laddering cycles have been finished, which does not seem like it would procure a healthy ladder meta.

thanks for reading. quickban rachi.

 

[ryyjyywyy]

I noticed that some of the matchups lkjc showed are incorrect, and it also missing the growing popular sets of special rachi so i just wanted to add on to his stuff and show some more on the scarf side flinches

Whimsicott - Scarf wins this is one mon jirachi struggles to beat since protect can scout for item and taunt can beat stall,

B+ Rank
Aegislash - Jirachi loses unless it tricks against weakness policy aegislash, stall rachi can beat aegislash if its not running metal sound, which a lot dont
Cinderace - Jirachi loses 252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 139-165 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO rachi just needs the roll and 40% flinch to beat cinderace, and this isnt even adamant rachi

B Rank
Chandelure - Jirachi loses 252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 120-142 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO similar situation to cinderace
Diggersby - Rachi needs 2 iron head flinches; we'll leave this one even tho air balloon icy wind rachi kinda shits on it
Excadrill - Rachi loses; air balloon rachi says hi again, also the 20% fire punch burn to win with scarf is a thing too, exca is defo not reliable
Rhyperior - Rachi loses; air balloon / shuca special rachi can beat this p easily
Rotom-Heat - Rachi loses to scarfl 252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 144 HP / 40+ Def Rotom-Heat: 91-108 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO, id still count this as a loss, but 2 zen headbutt flinches isnt really hard to get

B- Rank
Bewear - Jirachi loses special rachi would disagree
Grimmsnarl - Rachi loses; 132+ Atk Choice Band Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Jirachi: 342-404 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO not hard for special rachi to ev for this and flash cannon it to oblivion; 84+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Flash Cannon vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Grimmsnarl: 390-462 (99.4 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO choice specs also says hi

C+ Rank
Darmanitan - Rachi loses 252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 177-208 (50.4 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO lol in 1 zen headbutt flinch to lose
C Rank
Crawdaunt - Rachi loses special rachi wins
Hitmonlee - Rachi loses - Hi Nalei n_n; i mean i guess but specs rachi doesnt
Inteleon - Rachi loses 252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 12 HP / 60 Def Inteleon: 144-169 (50.7 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO rip in dies to a zen flinch again
Obstagoon - Rachi loses; im sure moonblast can probably win, but ill leave this as a loss
Scrafty - Rachi loses special moonblast says hello
Vaporeon - Rachi loses vape can defo lose to calm mind tbolt, but this is a luck game

C- Rank
Charizard - Rachi loses; 252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 135-159 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO; 252 hp still dies to 2 zen flinches
Ninetales - Rachi loses; no bulk dies to 1 zen flinch, some bulk dies to 2

ok, now lets relook at lkjc's total counting the fixed matchups for just scarf and stall (counting zen headbutt matchups to the 50/50 category):
Jirachi wins 78 / 105 Matchups in VR and two 50/50s. It beats 74.28% of the metagame with just two sets. -> Jirachi wins 77/ 105 Matchups in VR and eight 50/50s. It beats 73.33% of the metagame with just two sets, and also can easily kill another 7.61% with 1 zen headbutt flinch; or 9.5% with 1-2 zen headbutt flinches.
This brings the total amount that can reliably cover these two sets to about 19.06%-17.17% of the meta, most of which are lower tiered mons

Lastly, that small portion of the meta that can reliably cover these 2 sets mostly get bopped by the still extremely good sets of special rachi

TL/DR like 4-5% of the metagame can 'reliably' beat rachi between its popular and high tier sets, all of which have low opportunity cost to run. ban this shit

 

[STABLE]

While I usually try to look at the objective side of things with MU charts and all that, Jirachi requires a more subjective analysis
Before going into it, I wanna set down some ground basis terms and concepts that were taken from this video and that I think could be applied to the 1v1 metagame as well.

A strategy/Pokemon/move/ability can be described as Degenerate when making use of it is devoid of the skills traditionally required to perform well in the game.
In the case of the 1v1 metagame these skills come in set prediction, good picking, match-up knowledge and good teambuilding.
A strategy/Pokemon/move/ability can be described as Over-centralizing when the metagame tends to warp itself around that specific threat, rendering good options that would normally not be considered viable at all.

a Tier 3 violation in the metagame is something that classifies as degenerate. Most violations in this tier aren't ban-worthy by themselves but they can be annoying to deal with and they do set a basis for ulterior threats
Example: Togekiss with Air Slash and Serene Grace can cheese a large portion of the metagame but its raw stats and MU spread make it easier to deal with and not strong enough to argue for a ban.

a Tier 2 violation in the metagame is something that classifies as over-centralizing. Some violations in this tier are ban-worthy and some aren't, depending on how well-versed the metagame is and how well it deals with the threat in question
Example 1: Kyurem-Black is an extremely over-centralizing Pokemon in the BW metagame, but the meta in itself has developed in such a way that dealing with it is not a hassle, and the Pokemon that can deal with it are also strong in themselves.
Example 2: Mimikyu was an over-centralizing Pokemon in the SS metagame, and the meta in itself simply lacked the resources to properly keep it at bay, making Pokemon that would generally not be considered very good, like Excadrill, rise a lot in viability. For this reason it was deemed ban-worthy and removed from the tier.

And finally, a Tier 1 violation in the metagame is something that classifies as both degenerate AND over-centralizing. Pretty much every violation in this category is deemed ban-worthy, since the metagame is forced to wrap itself around a threat that can also cheese its way out of these losing match-ups.
Example 1: Mimikyu in the SM metagame was an extremely strong Pokemon that warped the meta around itself (over-centralizing) and could still beat threats that would normally counter it by running a Thunder Wave set (degenerate).
Example 2: Snorlax in the SM metagame was an extremely strong-hitting Pokemon with the use of moves like Z-Belly Drum (over-centralizing) and that could rely on the combination of Yawn and Protect to gain a favorable match-up against Pokemon that would technically counter it (degenerate).

In my opinion, Jirachi falls under the category of a Tier 1 violation. Its insane movepool, base stats and potential make it for an extremely strong and unpredictable threat even in the absence of Serene Grace (over-centralizing), but the ability sets it apart by being able to flinch potential checks and counters to death. (degenerate)

Why is it over-centralizing? This is a bit subjective, but just looking at the VR you can identify Pokemon like Incineroar and Excadrill which, in my opinion, aren't good, but get pushed very high on the VR as a result of their ability to counter Jirachi

Why is it degenerate? Let's look at 1v1 skills one by one

Set Prediction - The sheer amount of viable sets it can run is way higher than just Scarf and Stall, and even so, both sets cover a large amount of similar threats so it is very difficult to distinguish between the two at team preview
Good Picking - In most match-ups, even when you supposedly pick the Jirachi counter in a Jirachi, it can still flinch you to death with Iron Head with a quite high percent of success, thus rendering your good pick meaningless
Match-up Knowledge - You can click whatever you want lol if you get flinched the move isnt gonna come out
Good Teambuilding - The amount of actually reliable counters is so small that it restricts teambuilding in a way such that you either take the risk of losing a winning match-up or run the same few mons on all of your teams.


I believe this properly describes the place Jirachi has in the metagame, and I'm going to use this terminology when talking about other potentially ban-worthy aspects in the future.

As already highlighted by many users in this post, Jirachi definitely deserves to be quickbanned and I doubt the user reception would be as poor as something like the Z-Detect ban (especially considered how the community has grown accustomed to uncompetitive bans since then).
I believe a suspect would be unnecessary as the results of it are easily predictable, but I can see why the process of quickbanning Jirachi is not looked well by the Council. Imho especially with such a huge tournament as Ladder Tour going on, having a healthy metagame is very important, so the sooner it gets banned the merrier.

final verdict: quickban

 

[zioziotrip]

Seeing as the Rachi ban is basically a foregone conclusion at this point I'd like to talk about potential bans or resuspects after DLC.
While I know it's generally frowned down upon to talk about the future I'd like to do so regardless, it seems that when there isn't someone saying what to do nothing is done so I plan to lay the groundwork. This is the list of mon currently confirmed to be returning.

Section 1: Potential Unbans of Previously QB'd Mons Going Into DLC
It's been thrown around that certain mons should be retested from the pool of mons that were very quickly QB'd. The offenders in question being Melmetal, Kyurem-Black, and Marshadow. I'd like to go ever each one's chance of being allowed back in.
This shit may be fine after DLC, but I doubt this. It singlehandedly invalidates physical attackers and there's not really any good special attackers capable of beating Melmetal, at least currently. Maybe w/ DLC we get better special attackers and physical walls that are better suited to dealing w/ Melmetal but I can see it being a similar case to Mimi/Rachi where you were basically told "run exca" but this time w/ Volcorona. I really don't want to see time wasted on resuspecting this thing unless to power creep is insane and looking at the returning list there is a fair amount of new stall mons so maybe. Registeel, Volc, Zapdos, are def capable of beating Melmetal but I don't want another case of there being a pool of 5 mons checking one broken and making an incredibly unfun metagame (looking at you Mimi.)
This is the one I'm most unsure on as one mon completely invalidating every physical mon is no bueno but there may be a fair amount of returning mons that keep this in check.
I think this will absolutely be fine. I mean it think it's kinda fine rn but additional mons will firmly cement that this thing is fine. Sylv, Darm-G, Haxorous, Registeel, Crustle, Azu, Blissey/Chansey, Cress, the Tapus, and the various returning dragons (Latis, Garchomp) all force Kyu-B to run a bunch of sets at once to beat all of its counters and the sets' opportunity costs are pretty large (as opposed to a certain stupid ghost/fairy mon.) I feel the most strongly about freeing KyuB post-DLC out of the trio. Please quick free this thing when DLC drops.
I feel Marshadow would suffer from the same issue Zera is currently suffering from, no Z-Moves hurt this thing significantly. 125 attack isn't bad per say but it's pretty underwhelming especially w/ a 125 speed that kinda forces you to run a significant amount of speed. 90/80/90 bulk is a bit annoying and being unable to boost on Marshadow is a massive pain but I think it's worthwhile to look at this thing in a potential suspect test, hopefully sooner than later.
Section 2: Potential Unbans/Resuspects of Mons Banned From SS
As stated previously alongside bans, there has been discussion of resuspecting certain threats once DLC drops. This time, it's five different threats all of which were banned for being unhealthy to the meta. The question being, are these mons/mechanics still overbearing in a post DLC SS?
[Getting Big On 'Em] Dyna does not promote a healthy meta I never think it'll belong in 1v1 as it just turns the tier into coinflips. No new mon will suddenly make dynamax fine it makes an incredibly volatile meta that prefers winning 50/50s over making good picks or having good prep.
Encore/Disable+Prankster is an inherently broken combo the only scenario I can see it being fine is a significant powercreep. Looking at returning mons, it is nowhere near enough of a powercreep to justify freeing Sableye.
Imprison+Transform w/ 100s across the board in addition to an incredible movepool allowing for excellent choice sets to check usual counter forcing set guessing on preview in addition to 50/50s after picks. This thing will remain broken until there are way better mons that occupy 100+ speed tier. It's borderline acceptable post DLC but I really doubt it'll be fine unless Marshadow/Melmetal/Kyu-B are freed forcing the meta into a much more offensive meta (which personally I believe is way better than the stally mess that post-DLC currently looks like.) Honestly, I think it may be fine depending on how the meta pans out but if it's stall-centered like it looks to be Mew is not something that would a healthy presence.
Yeah w/ powercreep this thing will be nowhere near banworty. It has already been mentioned that this thing is planned for a resuspect post-DLC and I don't have any issues w/ that. Necrozoma struggles dealing w/ stall mons if its not Stored Power but that has a lot of opportunity cost so I doubt Necro will be anywhere near the menace it was pre-DLC.
Inherently broken ability. This thing should've never been considered as a healthy presence for the tier and going forward we shouldn't screw w/ it. It forces the meta to bend to Mimi and it makes such an incredibly unfun metagame. My biggest issue w/ Mimi is the complete lack of opportunity cost for adding things to its checklist. DLC could introduce 10 new checks for Mimi and within the week they would all become unreliable. Please never let it back in the tier, it does not belong when it contributes absolutely 0 to 1v1 and is instead a massive hassle in each part of the tier.
Another inherently broken mon. 100 speed w/ a 60% percent chance to just beat supposed counters. If you want longer reasoning on why this thing will absolutely never be fine look at the other posts in this thread.
Section 3: How I think tiering should be handled moving forward
While no one can predict how exactly DLC will turn out, I think it's a pretty fair assessment to say it looks stall-centered. There is a distinct lack of breakers while there are vile stall mons like Cosmic Power Cress, RegiSerp, Azu, Chansey/Blissey w/ Charm+SToss, Zapdos, and whatever else comes back. Our premier breaker being Volc is a scary prospect and honestly, I think it looks like Exca 2.0. There are definitely ways of alleviating these issues, this would be my way of going about it:
Keep mons with inherently broken mechanics out of the tier, mons that don't have inherently broken gimmicks should be looked at
Mew, Sableye, Jirachi, Mimikyu, and Dynamax should never be let in the tier again. Their gimmicks are each respectively unfair forcing unoptimal countermeasures (ie. Mew creating Copycat usage, Sableye forcing Dark types on each team, Mimi forcing you to run Multi-Hit moves) and on the other side of the coin you have mons w/ incredibly strong stats/typing but no one broken gimmick you could too. Yes, KyuB and Marshadow have incredibly strong base stats in addition to incredibly useful stab/movepools. However, I could run Sylv and beat both of those mons. No weird gimmick set and it's not a bad mon, on the contrary Sylv is quite good. I feel that plenty of viable mons check these strong mons while the gimmick mons force unoptimal gimmicks/mons. In a world w/o Rachi/Mimi you have no Excadrill. This much is apparent from the complete lack of Exca usage from gens 5-7. In world w/o KyuB or Marshadow, you still have plenty of Sylv usage, and other mons such as Hax, Dragapult, Zera, Gard, Incin, etc. still have plenty of usage and all are capable of keeping these mons in check. Yes, these mons will have to run slightly different variants w/ very little opportunity cost to dispatch KyuB/Marshadow.

TL;DR- Mew, Sableye, Jirachi, Mimikyu, and Dynamax should remain gone forever. KyuB, Marshadow, and Melmetal are worth looking at going into DLC. Inherently broken mechanics should not have to be worked around when it forces unoptimal techs, I see no issue w/ strong mons when all they do is encourage usage of mons that are already good. I know that the post is quite long, but I would appreciate if you read it. Peace.

 

[oookkk]

Let’s do a classic look at how Jirachi stacks up against VR. This is including the main two Jirachi movesets found in usage: Scarf and Stall, and assuming Jirachi gets one flinch. I’m only saying one Jirachi set that beats each of these, but the sets overlap in what they beat quite often.

Blue = Win
Red = Lose

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar - Scarf wins

A+ Rank
Sylveon - Scarf wins

A Rank
Arcanine - Stall wins
Crustle - Scarf wins
Dracovish - Stall wins
Dragapult - Scarf wins
Primarina - Stall wins

A- Rank
Corsola-Galar - Stall wins
Corviknight - Scarf wins
Haxorus - Scarf wins
Mandibuzz - Scarf wins
Sawk - Scarf wins
Whimsicott - Scarf wins

B+ Rank
Aegislash - Jirachi loses unless it tricks against weakness policy aegislash
Aromatisse - Stall wins
Avalugg - Stall wins
Cinderace - Jirachi loses
Hydreigon - Scarf wins, moonblast
Incineroar - Jirachi loses
Kommo-o - Scarf wins
Kyurem - Scarf wins
Rillaboom - Stall wins
Rotom-Wash - 50/50 with both mons having a scarf and stall possibility
Togekiss - Rachi wins
Zeraora - Zen headbutt flinch wins

B Rank
Chandelure - Jirachi loses
Conkeldurr - Stall wins
Diggersby - Rachi needs 2 iron head flinches
Excadrill - Rachi loses
Gastrodon - Stall wins
Golisopod - Stall wins
Milotic - Stall wins
Rhyperior - Rachi loses
Rotom-Heat - Rachi loses to scarf
Snorlax - Scarf wins
Steelix - Stall wins
Tyranitar - Scarf wins

B- Rank
Bewear - Jirachi loses
Blastoise - Stall wins
Celebi - Scarf wins
Centiskorch - Jirachi loses
Dracozolt - Stall wins
Duraludon - Stall wins
Durant - Stall wins
Gardevoir - Scarf wins
Gengar - Scarf wins
Goodra - Stall wins
Grimmsnarl - Rachi loses
Gyarados - Thunderbolt 3% usage? We’ll give this one to gyara
Keldeo - Scarf wins
Type: Null - Trick rest wins
Weezing-Galar - Stall wins

C+ Rank
Cloyster - Stall wins
Darmanitan - Rachi loses
Ferrothorn - Stall wins
Rotom-Mow - 50/50 same as rotom wash
Silvally - Stall wins unless we started using silvally dark
Terrakion - Scarf wins
Togedemaru - Stall wins
Toxapex - Stall wins
Toxtricity - Zen headbutt flinch
Venusaur - Stall wins

C Rank
Alcremie - Scarf wins
Appletun - Stall wins
Bisharp - Rachi loses
Cofagrigus - Scarf wins
Copperajah - Stall wins
Crawdaunt - Rachi loses
Dubwool - Stall wins
Gigalith - Scarf wins
Hitmonlee - Rachi loses - Hi Nalei n_n
Inteleon - Rachi loses
Mamoswine - Scarf wins
Ninetales-Alola - Scarf wins
Obstagoon - Rachi loses
Reuniclus - Scarf wins
Scrafty - Rachi loses
Umbreon - Scarf wins
Vaporeon - Rachi loses

C- Rank
Araquanid - Stall wins
Charizard - Rachi loses
Cobalion - Stall wins
Drifblim - Stall wins
Eiscue - Scarf wins
Hippowdon - Stall wins
Ludicolo - Stall wins
Mudsdale - Stall wins
Ninetales - Rachi loses
Pyukumuku - Stall wins, unaware doesn’t ignore stored power bp
Sirfetch'd - Scarf wins
Torkoal - Rachi loses
Tsareena - Stall wins
Virizion - Scarf wins
Weavile - Scarf wins

D Rank
Drampa - Rachi loses
Eldegoss - Stall wins
Espeon - Scarf wins
Hatterene - Scarf wins
Indeedee-Female - Scarf wins
Orbeetle - Scarf wins
Quagsire - Stall wins, unaware doesn’t ignore stored power bp
Sudowoodo - Scarf wins
Trevenant - I don’t know what set this runs and you don’t either. To be safe we won’t count it towards wins
Vikavolt - Stall wins
Wishiwashi - Stall wins

Jirachi wins 78 / 105 Matchups in VR and two 50/50s. It beats 74.28% of the metagame with just two sets. Tell me how you haven’t quickbanned this thing already

some stuff wrong with it like what ryy did.
-scarf vish beats stall
-disable/specs pult can beat scarf
-corsola g has icy wind spite and amnesia(dont think it needs it) which beats a lot surprisingly
-mandibuzz w/ foul play beats scarf
-whimsicott nearly always wins losing to like unset specs and with babiri 100% wins
-with zeraora you need two zen flinches because if you dont it will knock off into a kill. this is 16%(not reliable scarf win)
-dracozolt will beat stall
-nalei came up with endure salac disable gengar a while ago which beats scarf rachi
-silvally should be able to win as I've done in the past with silvally water. spam parting shot-->SD-->multi attack
74 Atk Silvally-Water Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
a little invest if you care or just pray for crits/high rolls
-Cofagrigus should win as its ability removes flinches basically and it just needs night shade/shadow ball for the kill
-as for umbreon, it gets foul play and like if you trick,
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 75-88 (19 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
good luck with 5 flinches
-C- rank and below i dont really care
except for pyumukku which just stood out to me for some reason
+6 0 SpA Jirachi Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Unaware Pyukumuku: 211-250 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
mirror coat gg

not gonna do the percentage thing like you guys did but i would assume i lowered the percent down to 70?
TO RYY:
rhyp can win with metal burst
grimmsnarl wins with sucker punch but it will still lose to specs(unset)
scarf cinderace wins
stop saying two zen flinches is ez its literally 16%

EDIT: forgot to say my thoughts which are: i would prefer a suspect over a quickban but everyone hates jirachi anyways so its probably not gonna happen.

 

[IBM]

some stuff wrong with it like what ryy did.
-scarf vish beats stall - Scarf Rachi beats scarf vish
-disable/specs pult can beat scarf
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 138-163 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO - Struggle kills
-corsola g has icy wind spite and amnesia(dont think it needs it) which beats a lot surprisingly +6 0 SpA Jirachi Stored Power (380 BP) vs. +6 248 HP / 184 SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 229-270 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Dies to two stored powers
-mandibuzz w/ foul play beats scarf
32 SpA Jirachi Moonblast vs. 244 HP / 104 SpD Mandibuzz: 134-158 (31.7 - 37.4%) -- 86.5% chance to 3HKO
-whimsicott nearly always wins losing to like unset specs and with babiri 100% wins Doom desire
-with zeraora you need two zen flinches because if you dont it will knock off into a kill. this is 16%(not reliable scarf win)
252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora: 138-163 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO - Only needs one, life orb dies to life orb recoil, anything that isn’t banded loses, and band loses to stall
-dracozolt will beat Stall. Loses to scarf though
32 SpA Jirachi Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dracozolt: 190-224 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-nalei came up with endure salac disable gengar a while ago which beats scarf rachi
252+ SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Jirachi: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Dies to struggle
-silvally should be able to win as I've done in the past with silvally water. spam parting shot-->SD-->multi attack
74 Atk Silvally-Water Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
a little invest if you care or just pray for crits/high rolls
0 SpA Jirachi Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 160 HP / 252 SpD Silvally-Water: 229-270 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Calm mind cancels out with parting shot then you lose
-Cofagrigus should win as its ability removes flinches basically and it just needs night shade/shadow ball for the kill Stall wins
-as for umbreon, it gets foul play and like if you trick,
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 75-88 (19 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
good luck with 5 flinches Stall pp stalls you and special Jirachi wins
-C- rank and below i dont really care
except for pyumukku which just stood out to me for some reason
+6 0 SpA Jirachi Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Unaware Pyukumuku: 211-250 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
mirror coat gg Stored Power is 380 bp gg.
20+(6x20)+(6x20)+(6x20)
+6 0 SpA Jirachi Stored Power (380 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Unaware Pyukumuku: 310-366 (98.7 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

not gonna do the percentage thing like you guys did but i would assume i lowered the percent down to 70? No you didn’t.
TO RYY:
rhyp can win with metal burst - And then you lose to stall
grimmsnarl wins with sucker punch but it will still lose to specs(unset) Flash cannon OHKOs, like he said. “REEEEE UNSET”
scarf cinderace wins - ...ok bud, you can have this one
stop saying two zen flinches is ez its literally 16% It is pretty easy though

EDIT: forgot to say my thoughts which are: i would prefer a suspect over a quickban but everyone hates jirachi anyways so its probably not gonna happen.
Boat literally says in the main post that a Jirachi suspect is impossible. Read.

QC 1/3 Tag me when implemented

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

While not an avid SS 1v1 player (someone give me teams and maybe I'll ladder) I would still like to speak to the argument that two sets beat 75% of the metagame as it is an argument I don't quite understand.
The reason I don't quite understand this is back in gen 7 we had a Pokemon called Charizard which had two Mega-Evolutions quite the same way Jirachi has two sets that seem to beat nearly everything in the metagame. Now to be fair I only calced and compiled data for one of each Charizard set

Which Can Be Found Here

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 8 HP / 148 Def / 144 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blast Burn
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Atk / 144 SpD / 96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Flame Charge
- Outrage
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp

Using these sets I found that together they beat about 69% of the metagame give or take a few percentage points, I only went through B- because of time constraints and the sheer volume of semi viable Pokemon in C rank and below. You can see the match ups here

You can see the match ups here

Points are given based on the reliability of the counter and if the match up is based upon a 50/50 with the opponent, the Vivillon .66 is due to the likelihood of waking up and the Necrozma is based on the likelihood of 2KHOing with each set onto Stored Power variants
S Rank

Charizard-Mega-X Doesn't Count

Dragonite Charizard X wins against most sets 0.75

Gyarados-Mega Charizard Y wins 1

S- Rank

Magearna Both win 1

A+ Rank

Charizard-Mega-Y Doesn't Count

Greninja X Wins (Y rolls with modest) 1

Metagross-Mega X or Y can beat different sets 1

Porygon-Z X beats Scarf, Y beats Normalium 1

Tapu Lele Both beat different sets 1

A Rank

Gardevoir-Mega X Wins 1

Meloetta Loss 0

Mew X Beats Kee Y Beats Mewnium 1

Slowbro-Mega Y Wins 1

Zeraora X 50/50s 0.5

Zygarde-Complete Loss 0


A- Rank

Aegislash Y Wins 1

Kommo-o X Wins 1

Landorus-Therian Loses 0

Magnezone X Wins 1

Primarina Y Wins 1

Tapu Fini Waterium Wins, Tapunium loses to Y 1

Victini X Wins 1

B+ Rank

Altaria-Mega Both Lose 0

Celesteela Both Win 1

Clefable Both Lose 0
Donphan X 50/50 in your favor 0.75

Garchomp Loss 0

Genesect X Wins 1

Heatran Both Lose 0

Jumpluff X Wins 1

Mawile-Mega Y Wins 1

Sableye-Mega X Wins 1

Serperior X Wins 1

Togekiss X Wins against most sets unless you get very haxed 0.75

Tyranitar-Mega Loss 0

Venusaur-Mega Y Wins

B Rank

Aggron-Mega Loss 0

Blaziken-Mega X Wins 1

Crustle Loss 0

Ferrothorn Both Win 1

Haxorus Loss 0

Hoopa-Unbound X Wins 1

Incineroar Loss 0

Jirachi Both Win 1

Kartana X Wins 1

Krookodile Y Wins 1

Lopunny-Mega X Wins 1

Magneton X Wins 1

Naganadel X Wins 1

Necrozma Y Beats Specs, 50/50 in your favor Stored Power 0.8

Pheromosa X Wins 1

Porygon2 Y Wins 1

Registeel Y Wins 1

Sawk X Wins 1

Scizor-Mega Both Win 1

Type: Null Y can win 0.2

Volcarona X Wins 1

Whimsicott Y 50/50s in your favor 0.75

B- Rank

Archeops Loss 0

Carracosta Loss 0

Deoxys-S 50/50 Not in your favor 0.25

Diancie-Mega Loss 0

Golem Loss 0

Kyurem X Wins 1

Latias-Mega X Wins 1

Manaphy Y Wins 1

Medicham-Mega Loss 0

Pinsir-Mega X Wins 1

Swampert-Mega Y Wins 1

Tapu Bulu Y Wins (X Beats Scarf) 1

Vivillon X Wins (Most of the time Confusion) .66

Zapdos Y Wins 1

These two sets beat 69% of the metagame after almost 4 years of development in which they are top threats in the metagame. Many of the Pokemon viable in these tiers and especially the lower ones are designed specifically to beat both Charizard forms and would be much less viable without them in the tier and yet, no one argues to ban Charizard in gen 7. Anyways here's my point. With more development of the SS metagame Jirachi may be dealt with in the same way Charizard or Gyarados or Dragonite in the last gen, by building a system of counters around them. Just because a pokemon is strong in the current meta doesn't mean it needs to be banned to keep it the the same, the metagame needs to evolve to see how the Pokemon effects it. If in a month or two the metagame is unhealthy and every team consists of Jirachi, Jirachi counter, and a counter to Jirachi's counter the way the gen 7 metagame was around Marshadow then yes it probably is banable. But if instead, with either healthy metagame shifts or the release of the June DLC Jirachi has died down then keep it. We've done this with Jirachi before in gen 7 and it was a mistake.

TLDR I'm not saying its not broken, I'm just saying we can't be sure yet.

 

[Tol]

yall wanna see data? lets have some data. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TRh6KQ_xhOtXDel4lnePdOFlUrf8EusZj7KIpe92nEI/edit#gid=0
this spreadsheet was made back when kyub was on the chopping block and it shows that kyub at the time beat 77% of the meta. kyub got banned. rachi beats 70-ish percent of the meta with two sets. suspect rachi please. also dont free kyub. this thing is tanky as fuck and with the decreep of swsh, its only gotten better. i wouldnt be averse to the idea of a suspect for marshadow just because it never had a non z move set and its base stats are ehhh as compared to kyub, but its gonna be s rank at the least. melmetal can keep its metallic ass out of this meta thank you

 

[STABLE]

lets have some data.

they beat about 69% of the metagame

Numbers are good and Match-up analysis is nice, but these arguments lay down a proof of concept that needs to be explored and contextualized.

When looking at the spreadsheet for the Kyurem-Black analysis compared to the Jirachi chart a thing appears clear to me at first glance: Counter viability. Mega Gyarados, the best Pokemon in the tier, hard countered KyuB's sets, even the most obscure ones. KyuB's counters are also to be found in the A+ tier and there are already 4 in A tier. I could also argue that some of the Match-Ups there are completely wrong, since Mega Aggron is set as a loss against Scarf even though none of KyuB's moves kill and they all get reflected back by Metal Burst. I'm still gonna take things at face value since I don't wanna start arguing about match-ups and stuff.
Looking at Jirachi's match-ups, though, the highest ranked Pokemon that beats it is Whimsicott, ranked at A-. The majority of its counters are to be found in lower tiers like C, since those Pokemon either present a niche that grants them that status for basically that reason alone or sacrifice a lot of MU coverage just to beat Jirachi. Theoretically speaking, if you had a Pokemon that beat every single mon on the VR that is ranked B+ and lower, it would be way less viable than a Pokemon that beat every Pokemon ranked B- and higher, even though it beats more stuff.

I wanna only touch on the bsu post briefly before going to my next point. While at team preview there's no dead tell to which charizard form it is, the nature of the two Pokemon is extremely different, in such a way that very rarely you see the two forms both beat the same thing (except like, steel types and shit), thus making it very easy to distinguish which form it is at team preview. Jirachi does not unfortunately have this distinction, a lot of threats equally lose to both Scarf and Stall, making it very hard to guess the set at preview.
More than that, while Charizard has ways to invest in EVs and a couple free moveslots, Jirachi can beat pretty much every threat it wants running the appropriate moves. When playing in a tournament setting against a good player it is very much possible to expect sets like Choice Specs, Shuca Berry or whatever the fuck Doom Desire bullshit people have come up with nowadays, as it already has happened (re: Waylaid beating wanna-be Jirachi counter Avalugg with a Shuca Berry Flash Cannon set).

The final point I wanna make in this counter-argument is that the quick-ban is not being proposed on a purely strength-based basis. Most things that get banned for that criteria are things like Melmetal, that get identified as broken right away. Jirachi's ability to flinch puts a strain on building and gameplay by being able to bypass literally every single one of its losing match-ups by resorting to hax. Match-up charts like the one Lkjc made + ryy's correction (please, for the love of God, don't get too nitpicking with those MU charts. Making them is not easy and slips happen, so unless it's some gross imprecision just accept it as flawed, it's not gonna get far away from the truth) just strengthen to show how over-centralizing Jirachi is even without its ability. Serene Grace is an inherently broken ability, and in the hands of the right Pokemon it becomes ban-worthy

 

[zioziotrip]

Heyo, once again not talking about Rachi. This post made in 1v1 Forum Rules, Council Info, and Announcements while for the most part is a great move to set precedent for how DLC will be handled I do have one issue.

Resuspects of Pokemon banned through suspects/quickbans will always be public suspect tests.

This could be incredibly time-consuming based on how many mons are considered for resuspects and in my opinion, introduces too much red tape that may prevent other mons from being unbanned purely due to time constraints. Especially considering how close World Cup is to DLC and I don't want another situation like Mimi where the suspect was delayed until the end of PL despite there being callings for a suspect since around week 2. On the plate currently for unbans you have the potential for the following retests:
-Mimikyu
-Mew
-Necrozma
-Marshadow
-Kyurem-Black
(Give or take of course)
When you also have the potential for a new mon to pop up and suddenly become suspect-worthy (not qb-worthy) this becomes a massive mess especially when you have already have a system in place to handle this:

...if a suspect is going to feel like a waste of time with a foregone conclusion, it should be a quickban.

I see no reason why this can't be true vise versa as well. Prime example, I really don't think anyone really thinks Necrozma will be broken in a post-DLC environment. If this assessment of mine turns out to be false then Necrozma can simply go through the due process but if the community is overall in favor of its return then I see to reason to not quick-free it, there's also the option of qb'g the mon if it does prove to be too much.

Quite frankly, at the start of the gen I was frustrated w/ the pace decisions seemed to come out at and the transparency of those decisions but both of those issues have improved significantly in recent times. That being said, I would still like to provide my two cents on the way 1v1 is handled. Peace.

 

[Ginger Princess]

I see no reason why this can't be true vise versa as well. Prime example, I really don't think anyone really thinks Necrozma will be broken in a post-DLC environment. If this assessment of mine turns out to be false then Necrozma can simply go through the due process but if the community is overall in favor of its return then I see to reason to not quick-free it, there's also the option of qb'g the mon if it does prove to be too much.

While the example Pokemon listed is dubious at best, Rosa and I agree that at least opening up the possibility of an unquickban option in the future is probably wise. No future metagame can be perfectly predicted, and it may be that, however unlikely, a certain DLC makes a previously broken Pokemon comparatively tame and obviously suitable for the metagame.

The sentence has been edited to "Resuspects of banned Pokemon through suspects/quickbans will almost always be public suspect tests; unquickbanning is possible, but it would require the circumstances of the current metagame to be radically different than in the metagame where it was originally banned."

Additionally, concerning your worry about no time being available for resuspecting banned Pokemon before major events, the very nature of resuspects require them to take place after all developments in a metagame have taken place (i.e. after Pokemon brought in from new DLC have been thoroughly tested). If it is done before this, and comes out as bannable again, we would be at risk of having a third suspect test after more new Pokemon have been introduced to the generation. It is more of a waste of time to have three total suspects, because one of them was faulty, than to just have two, one when the metagame started, one when the metagame has finished banning other problem Pokemon (trust me, we know from experience xd). Generation 8 is going to last for years, and there is no rush to quickly get a Pokemon resuspected early when it may just be banned again. If it is unquestionably average in the start of a new generation, that is a different story, but otherwise, you're likely not going to see any resuspects until all DLC has been released, and after the metagame has settled into a relatively balanced state.

 

[SiceXV]

SP stall

jirachi @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 60 Def / 44 SpD / 156 Spe
Calm Nature
- Iron Defense
- Amnesia
- Stored Power
- Rest

scarf

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Trick

specs

VERSACE (Jirachi) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 220 SpA / 40 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Flash Cannon
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball

toxic stall

Jirachi @ leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 168 HP / 44 Def / 44 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Substitute
- Protect
- Toxic

occa berry charm

Jirachi @ Occa Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 36 Atk / 220 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Charm
- Thunder Wave
- Iron Head
- Rest

shuca berry lure

Jirachi @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 220 SpA / 40 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Flash Cannon
- Calm Mind
- Energy Ball

imprison cteam

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 148 HP / 104 Def /152 SpD /104Spe
Modest Nature
- Imprison
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Punch
- Trick

disable pult/ghost lure

Jirachi @ Kasib Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 32 HP / 200 SpA / 36 SpD / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball

band

Jirachi @ Choice Band
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trick
- Zen Headbutt
- Iron Head
- Play Rough

Some of the sets obviously can be changed around for coverage based on the player's team, but these are all sets rachi can basically run. It's fun seeing how flexible and how many sets this devil can run thanks to its movepool, typing, and base 100 everything. Honestly, if you want to get better at 1v1, just have Jirachi in your team because most opponents will pick their "counter" into it lol.

Feel free to steal the sets and abuse the current meta while you can!

 

[Boat]

​

Now that the DLC metagame is beginning to settle and Cinderace has been taken care of, Magearna has risen as a natural response to its removal. In the transition from Generation 7, Magearna gained three incredibly useful tools in Stored Power, Encore, and Trick, but lost access to Fairium Z. However, losing its preferred item is ultimately not as impactful as having an incredibly deep movepool with one of the highest BSTs in the game. It is almost only effectively countered by Fire-types such as Alolan Marowak and Volcarona, and its high level of flexibility lets it beat almost every other Pokemon. Council is considering voting on a Magearna quickban, but naturally any quickban should come with a large amount of community support. Similar to Necrozma, Magearna could be a candidate for a resuspect in the future. To get conversation started, consider these questions:

Does Magearna constrict teambuilding to the same degree as previous quickbans?

How much of Magearna's early success can be attributed to a lack of metagame development?

Please keep the conversation in this thread civil and respectful; arguing and flaming doesn't bring us any closer to resolving the problems that will be brought up in this thread, and won't be tolerated. One liners will be deleted.

 

[Notater]

Ultimately I feel like Magearna is far from worthy of a quickban. Unlike previously quickbanned Pokemon such as Necrozma or Jirachi that had ways to easily play around their counters, Magearna's bad matchups with fire types are very hard to play around even when spending the opportunity cost to run Occa Berry. Additionally, while both specs and double dance sets are very good at the moment, those aforementioned fire types (as well as many other Pokemon) are able to aptly check both, meaning that at team preview one can usually discern what their magearna counter will be regardless of set. Finally, the metagame's larval state post-DLC makes it so that certain Pokemon such as Magearna may seem to be more restricting than they actually are. A similar situation is already taking place with Porygon-Z as people are developing sets to tank a scarf Hyper Beam, and I feel that in time similar metagame adapatations should take place for Magearna.

TL;DR Magearna is fine, please don't quickban.
(Note: post was edited because my brain somehow confused Necrozma and Mew.)

 

[Joker 1v1]

[21:43:58] #phiwings99: give thoughts // time for me to be a simp :p jk

Thoughts before I end up commiting 2 hours to a post that won't have much affect on quick ban or savior...
So, Magearna is a Pokemon which took storm in 1v1 back in the good days of gen 7, where anything could be used and probably was. Back then we had the boi charizard mega to keep us safe, as well as other strong pokemon. But as it has happened in 1v1 before, when you ban something that ended up countering a certain 'mon it becomes a butterfly effect. (ex. jirachi>kyub>mimikyu>snorlax). With Cinderace's ban, whether it was too "quick" of a ban, lead us to the popularization of magearnas being ran. [[Important]] Now its always hard deciding whether a pokemon is ban worthy days after a new drop of pokemon and meta shifts. That being said, sometimes it's better for a quick ban to happen so a meta can develop if council views a pokemon as a factor halting the development of the meta and state of 1v1. So I will 2nd the quick ban vote at this current point in time.

Random Rambling thoughts since I'm on the topic, feel free to skip this part if you looking for something else other than my brain flowing random magearna talk lol.
Magearna, for me as been a 'mon in a sense I helped make back in gen 7, not trying to be bias or look like an ass. But when Felucia and I one day were talking about XSC I decided to run pain split magearna to beat him since it 3-0d his team that no one could find a way to 3-0 since he always changed it up. And it kind of went from there and was made into a more universal set rather than a "fk you xsc" cteam set lol.
It kind of became a staple of 1v1 for a while with its mini "koko" esk? set. Being able to take dmg, and KO back without issue. As time went on it became a issue, as well. And I certainly remember running the curse porygon shadowball set people were running and was told porygon auto loses to magearna but when I was in 1700s I said fk it and found a guy who said that and beat him with my new greatest dumb idea at the time lol curse porygon, it became a way to bait magearna and even used it and won vs freddy in PL. so magearna does have good memories.
Later near the end of 1v1 magearna started getting countered by dual charge zera, from that it died down a but with meta running stuff to beat it. Magear was a big reason imo dnite is still around since its ability to beat dnite a lot helped it survive "THE WRATH OF THE COUNCIL..."*add in oohing sound effect* But yea was a good pokemon in gen 7. But yea now its sorta blocking the development of the 1v1 meta currently and i guess we can send it on a mini "vacation" whether it be permanent or not, is a good act towards the development of 1v1 in its current state....

Will this have much of an impact, probably not. But am a part of this community whether you want me to be or not. And I want to see it succeed. So hope this was what you were looking for mr sail "BOAT" <3 Hope you all have a great day if you read this far! ...or skipped to the end *cough* pqs :3

 

[zioziotrip]

Magearna is not a healthy presence for the current metagame and I don't see that improving anytime soon.

yes ik ik very hot take

While initially on the fence about Magearna after a look at what it has gained from DLC in addition to the overall mon-pool of SS I think a QB would be completely justified. I will just answer both the proposed questions as those do a pretty good job at summing up the issues Magearna presents.

Does Magearna constrict teambuilding to the same degree as previous quickbans?

What I would cite here is Necrozma. Both Necro/Mag force the running of one type. While initially thinking this may be completely absurd once you look at the meta vs Mag's multitude of sets as well as the potential for sets to pop up in the future, it really does make teambuilding a pain considering that a Fire-type really is your best shot by a long shot. Here is how in my opinion they branch off:
"Standard" Reliable Sets w/ Best All-Around MUs
Specs
Stall (ID+CM+Stored Power/Fleur Cannon+Rest/Draining Kiss)
Both of these cover the most mons on paper but both are p easily cheesed by mons such as Curse Pult and Eerie Impulse Porygons, however
Shift Gear/TR+Encore
Almost singlehandedly beats any Mag check that isn't a fire type. This to me is super ludicrous. I think being able to simultaneously stallbreak, threaten w/ great coverage+specs, and be an excellent stall mon at the same time basically ensures that unless you're a Fire-type then you will not be reliable enough to consider a counter in the builder. Yes in theory you should be able to run Impulse PZ/Curse Pult and beat the most two prominent Mag sets and maybe at that point you consider that a second mon should counter Shift Gear/TR+Encore Mag but regardless I think at the point Mag is a big enough burden in the builder.
TL;DR-Yes Mag has reliable checks in Fire-types, and while I do think highly of many Fire-types, I don't think it's wise to basically revert to Sableye meta when every team must have X type.

How much of Magearna's early success can be attributed to a lack of metagame development?

I would argue very little. People realized how insane Mag was the second that it was known to be coming to the tier. People have been scrambling to find reliable checks to Mag outside of Fire/Ground types I don't think people account for the fact that Mag very easily counter-develop. Its movepool is nutty and its stats/typing leave it room to do basically w/e it wants w/ its movepool. Annoying sets such as the aforementioned Shift Gear+Encore for stall/cheese mons and stuff I've seen such as Magnet Rise to completely wall out Crustle, scarf for Vish/Band Darm, Ballon for Diggersby, and while of course these are one-off lures I think it shows the ability for this mon to adapt in such a short period of time and over-time if it sees the same amount of development it will become increasingly difficult to call anything not a Fire-type a check.
TL;DR-I don't think how early the meta justifies holding off for a suspect. It should absolutely be qb'd if in the next week there aren't any significant discoveries that halt Mag's success. Regardless, I think Mag has the tools to counter-adapt which has precedent in Mimi being ridiculously good at counter-adapting and thus banworthy. I think Mag has as much or even more so of an ability to counter-adapt than Mimi did.

While I'm all for holding off to see how the meta develops around Mag, I don't want to see it ruin LT rounds because we hold off for a suspect. I think personally it's very unhealthy atm and will continue to be so in the future. I may make another post w/ MUs if someone else doesn't but don't hold your breath, peace.

 

[Nalei]

Let's scour the VR for Magearna counters...

Hide

High Usage DLC
Porygon-Z Beats standard sets on principle, beats Eerie Impulse+Nasty Plot with Trick
Chansey Wins with Trick+Rest or CM+Stored Power+Rest/Pain Split
Magnezone No
Volcarona This works!
Slowbro Bodied by any Trick or Encore set
Urshifu-Rapid No
Azumarill No
Marowak-A This works!
Urshifu-Single No
Slowbro-G No

S Rank
Primarina No

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar Band Darm drops to Scarf and Scarf Darm can be beaten by defensive Magearna with Flash Cannon so though Magearna can't win reliably, Darm can't either
Sylveon No

A+ Rank
Dracovish Hard loses to Scarf
Dragapult No

A Rank
Crustle No

A- Rank
Arcanine Most sets work!
Corsola-Galar No
Corviknight Realistically, Corvi never runs enough speed to outpace fast Magearna but if it were to, it wouldn't be bulky enough to wall a simple Scarfed Thunderbolt. Also loses if it uses a status move on Trick.
Haxorus No
Mandibuzz No
Rotom-Wash Tricky for both of these but Wash can't reliably win as non-defensive Wash is OHKO'd by Specs Fleur and defensive sets drop hard to Trick Scarf, fast Encore, etc
Sawk No
Snorlax Can't work around Stored Power sets bar Belly Drum+Earthquake which sounds unviable and also asking to get bopped by any offensive set
Whimsicott Generally very favorable for Magearna but SpD Taunt Babiri can force Magearna to play well with Encore

B+ Rank
Aromatisse No
Avalugg No
Diggersby Diggersby can make it work for the price of running Fire Punch and some SpD
Hydreigon No
Kommo-o No
Kyurem No
Rotom-Heat This works!
Togekiss No
Zeraora Without Z-moves, not even mixed Charge can beat Magearna

B Rank
Aegislash Encore/Trick sword form brr
Celebi No
Centiskorch This works!
Chandelure This works!
Conkeldurr No
Darmanitan This works!
Durant No
Gardevoir No
Gastrodon Encore or Stored Power
Incineroar Making this reliable can be an uphill battle but with Flame Charge, some SpD, and SD, it's doable
Rhyperior Balloon
Rillaboom No
Silvally (Water, Poison, Steel)* No
Steelix Balloon
Tyranitar No

B- Rank
Bewear No
Blastoise No
Dracozolt Scarf
Duraludon No
Gengar Gengar can be threatening but loses to offensive Scarf
Golisopod No
Goodra No
Grimmsnarl No
Gyarados No
Keldeo No
Milotic No
Venusaur No, though it can put up a fight

C+ Rank
Excadrill Ig this could conceivably counter with Chople but lol
Ferrothorn Trick+Rest
:meowstic-m: Meowstic No
Rotom-Mow No
Terrakion No
Throh No
Togedemaru No... unless?.. haha, I jest... :flushed:
Toxapex No
Toxtricity Needs Taunt to shut down most CM sets but Taunting turn 1 vs Trick Scarf is an L
Type: Null No
Weezing-Galar No

This brings us to... 9 hard Magearna counters! This is actually super reasonable when you compare it to mons like Cinderace and Necrozma but I'm a lot less concerned about the quantity and a lot more concerned about the type... literally. Only one isn't a Fire type which creates a very real and very scary constraint on teambuilding which is that a team without a Fire type is asking to lose to Magearna. In addition to these counters, I identified 5 reasonable checks though they're certainly outplayable for Magearna. Besides these 14 Pokemon, every Pokemon in the meta reliably loses to a specific non-unset Magearna. Yes, that is to say that over 80% of Pokemon in this meta are countered by one Magearna set or another without Magearna giving up very much in opportunity cost.

Unhealthy: The strain put on teambuilding as a result of having a psuedo-mandatory Fire type
Broken: Common sets beating 80+% of the meta as a collective and all having extremely high viability and minimal opportunity cost as individuals

I support a Magearna quickban with a resuspect whether that be before or after DLC 2.