• Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
  • The moderator of this forum is Niadev.

Announcement On the Radar

Not open for further replies.


is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor

Hey everyone. With the recent banslate having concluded, the council has since continued to discuss and closely monitor several of the Pokemon stated on the watchlist. In order to promote some transparency and discussion with the community before considering our next possible council vote, we’ve decided to include our individual reasoning for some of the Pokemon which have since remained here, which can be found below. Although this may be subject to change in the future, the following list consists of Kartana, Kyurem, Tapu Lele, Manaphy, Victini, Gyarados, Aegislash, Garganacl, and Weavile.

:kartana: Kartana

Kartana has always been one of the premier offensive Pokemon to have dropped since day 1, and has strongly carried its reputation ever since. What is quite possibly an offensive threat with the most absurd attacking stats in the current metagame to date along with its superb speed stat leaves very little room for defensive answers to develop against it. The most common check in Tornadus-T, has also recently left the tier, while Kartana can also salvage its decent physical bulk and resistances gained from its Steel typing to gauge more opportunities to wallbreak throughout a match, with Pokemon such as Rillaboom and Gliscor being commonplace on teams for it to regularly abuse the presence of. Furthermore, in addition to utilizing Z-Moves with its already strong Swords Dance sets, Kartana can also take advantage of Terestialization to have access to a more infuriatingly rewarding offensive option over this, giving it the potential to turn the tables on would-be checks such as Mega Latias and Iron Hands with Tera Grass allowing it to dodge OHKOes from them, while still being able to pummel the likes of Skarmory and Celesteela with additional techs such as Fightinium Z, or even running Choice Scarf to act as a surprisingly adept cleaner; invalidating the use of possible revenge killers such as Choice Scarf Blacephalon against it, and keeping its great offensive utility options in Knock Off and Toxic to better soften its defensive answers before going in to clean late-game. In general, whether or not this insane wallbreaking potential should continue to be allowed is up for heavy debate.

:kyurem: Kyurem and:tapu lele:Tapu Lele

Kyurem and Tapu Lele are both in a fairly similar boat to Kartana, largely owing to the immense power of their boosted attacks, and a perfectly decent speed tier to boot. With options such as Choice Specs, very few Pokemon can safely stand up to their STAB moves alone, while the Steels which would check them are similarly at risk of being put in a bad spot thanks to the prominence of HP Fire and Focus Blast, meaning you often have to dance around the 50/50 in order to not get instantly dropped. The few Pokemon that can typically answer the attacking combo from these sets - that being Jirachi, Slowking, Aegislash, and Victini, are also greatly threatened by boosted Earth Power or Shadow Ball respectively, while the latter two not having any form of reliable recovery made it common-place for them to be simply overpowered by repeated switches in the long-run. Couple this with the high amount of opportunities they got against defensive Pokemon such as Ting-Lu and Gliscor, or through pivoting support on anything unable to KO it in return, and both Pokemon come off as very concerning offensive threats that may be too detrimental to the development of certain aspects behind the future metagame.

:manaphy: Manaphy

Manaphy lacks relevant counters, period. Despite the downtick in rain teams with the rises of its most common abusers and enabler, Pelipper. The prominence of Tail Glow sets on Hyper Offense continues to make Manaphy a very threatening Pokemon in this more defensive phase. With solid all-around defenses of base 100 and a pure Water typing, grabbing a Tail Glow boost is very easy to do on more passive or even neutral targets, mostly necessitating that you directly switch in a Pokemon to deal with it, which is an incredibly risky maneuver given that most wallbreakers in the tier that can even come close to threatening Manaphy, are either slower or unable to reliably pick up the OHKO from full, putting them at risk of having to take a hit at +3, capable of taking out most options out after very little chip damage in return, often ensuring that you lose at least one Pokemon to it at most. To take this idea even further, most hyper offense teams with Manaphy also opt for either one of Sticky Webs or Dual Screens support, making Manaphy even tougher to stop by limiting the amount of possible revenge killers that can be used against it. Defensive answers aren’t much better off either, Tail Glow generally allows Manaphy to power through resists as mentioned above, and the few ones that are KOed a little less easily, such as Gastrodon and Amoonguss, are unable to deal sufficient damage back whilst the former also requires a dedicated Tera slot (one that resists either Grass or Ice) in order to wear it down reliably.

:victini: Victini

Victini continues to surge upwards with its winning streak from the last few generations, and has shown very little hesitation of slowing down ever since. Z-Celebrate has generally been its most common set, taking advantage of its superb bulk and nearly unresisted coverage to steamroll entire teams after an omni-boost. What makes it especially powerful however, is the loss of prominent revenge killing options against it. With most of rain, Urshifu-RS through screens, and even Dragonite all having rose to OU this shift, this renders the list of potential revenge killers against this set mostly barren, being essentially limited to Sand Rush Excadrill, Choice Scarf Blacephalon, and the niche rain options of Barraskewda and Floatzel in the present, the former two of which cannot OHKO a healthy Victini through Defense boosts and/or with Screens up. Beyond this, defensive answers consist of using Calm Mind Mega Latias, Chople Berry Tyranitar (requires at least 46% of chip), Ting-Lu (needs to be above 50% HP with hazards to soft-check), and the Slowtwins to stop it, all of which can be potentially lured with other coverage options or sets like Choice Band in the making.

:gyarados::gyarados-mega: Gyarados

In a vicious sea of new offensive threats, Gyarados still stands out despite reprising much of its main role from last generation. Similar to previously, teams struggle to find reliable defensive counterplay to Dragon Dance sets after a boost, and many of the revenge killers to either variant are also unreliable given the significant difference in offensive counterplay between the two forms - regular Gyarados often runs either Flyinium Z or Tera Blast (with Flying), being able to blow past common Fighting and Grass-type answers such as Buzzwole and Tangrowth for the latter, while Mega Gyarados’s extra bulk, reduced weaknesses to Electric and Rock, and additional resistances to Dark and Psychic allows it to soak hits from would-be answers such as Mega Aerodactyl and Choice Scarf Blacephalon in return, affording it some extra setup opportunities as well. This too can be exacerbated by the fact that the Mega Gyarados user has the option to change forms at will, although the indifference witnessed upon preview between these two is more often than not enough. Such a highly unfavorable set of mindgames overwhelmingly placed in the Gyarados user’s favor has since left much to us in question.

:aegislash: Aegislash

Aegislash is not like any of the Pokemon on this list - it doesn’t outright sweep entire teams, nor does it present the same alluring threat potential that other options have. But rather, its combination of a fantastic typing, exceptional base stats, and immense versatility come together to create a Pokemon arguably too extreme in its effect and centralization on the metagame. With an increased amount of offensive opportunities granted by a crucial set of resistances to the tier’s many offensive types, commonly utilized on Pokemon such as Tapu Lele and Latios, Aegislash has no problem finding its way into a match to cause havoc, especially with the lack of long-term Ghost-resists in the tier, while those that can on paper such as Zarude don’t come close to being splashable whatsoever. In addition, the recent shifts have also given Aegislash more freedom to tap into its extensive movepool options, further cementing its status as a major asset to nearly every team it can be found on; SubToxic has generally been the most prominent choice, easily forcing in and wearing down passive answers like Ting-Lu and Amoonguss, whilst having the most defensive applicability and longevity all-around, but we’ve also begun to see more experimentation with Swords Dance and Mixed Variants, giving Aegislash vastly more power to break defensive teams in conjunction with Tera Ghost, while still maintaining its excellent defensive utility against the aforementioned Pokemon on more offensive teams. It also doesn’t help that the two most prominent Pursuitters in the tier: Tyranitar and Weavile, are incapable of reliability trapping Aegislash in a one-on-one thanks to King’s Shield, on top of having to tread carefully around Close Combat and having issues with longevity against even SubToxic sets thanks to Terestialization.

:garganacl: Garganacl

Two words: Salt Cure. Pair this with a simple combination of Iron Defense + Body Press, along with Recover and the option to Terestialize into many different defensive types, and it’s no surprise that Garganacl has made a name for itself as one of the most threatening sweepers around. Given the lack of difficulty surrounding the need to acquire Defense boosts, there are very few Pokemon in the current metagame that are able to reliably force Garganacl out - the short list mostly consisting of strong special wallbreakers like Choice Specs Tapu Lele and Kyurem, as well as phazing moves from Pokemon such as Skarmory and Ting-Lu with a dedicated Tera slot, a common response on more defensive teams that can potentially play around it via hazard stacking and abusing Recover’s lower PP, but these are generally considered to be far too unreliable; the former is heavily dependent on the Garganacl user’s Tera Type not being resisted, as well as the offensive Pokemon switching in being at high enough health to take boosted Body Presses and Salt Cure’s excessive damage late-game, while the latter strategy often consists of being unable to deal much direct damage back, meaning that Garganacl is more often than not able to sweep in a similar fashion once the aftermentioned reponses have been sufficently weakened. As we can see, Garganacl’s oppressive nature against offense and defense alike cannot be overstated regardless of the differences it possesses from the others above.

:weavile: Weavile

Weavile has incredible offensive stats and the speed to go along with it, bolstered further by the incredible utility carried by both Knock Off and Pursuit, which against a tier starved for longevity on some of its premier defensive Pokemon, such as Tapu Fini and the Slowtwins, goes a lot way in making Weavile and its offensively-minded teammates at their most threatening on both sides of the spectrum. Additionally, with Tera here to stay, the options Weavile has to make itself even more threatening are nothing short of accessible to it. Choice Band Tera Dark has the capacity to easily 2HKO the entire metagame, with average defensive Pokemon such as Scizor and Dondozo folding to its immense power with even the slightest chip, a difficult trap to escape and not hard to fall into thanks to the surefire removal of Boots of Leftovers on said switchins, while Swords Dance sets packing Tera Poison (with Poison Jab) can trade the immense power of Choice Band to focus on beating down its specific checks, such as Buzzwole and Tapu Fini with the crucial resistances afford to it by Fairy and Fighting, as well as Grass to making revenge killing it with even the few options available, such as Choice Scarf variants of Tapu Lele and Kartana, more than a dangerous prospect for the opponent offensively.


Please take the time to share any thoughts you have in the metagame thread, as well as any potential additions you may think are worth looking into moving forward, we greatly appreciate having any form of additional input from the community before our next slate, and see you all in a few days.
Last edited by a moderator:


Celeste Mountain
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

We’ve recently decided to take another swing at the tiering radar, with plenty of new additions on the horizon following the release of HOME, we wanted to at least make sure we had eyes on the community, and so here it is.


:dondozo: Dondozo

With his name well-renowned by the people before me, it’s no surprise that Dondozo has also become a recurring follower in the discussion throughout the course of time. Via a simple set of Curse + RestTalk complemented by beefy stats and a highly sought-after ability in Unaware, handling Dondozo outright demands the preservation of strong special attackers in order to beat it, while not being subjected to the defensive complications brought on by Terstalization. Tera Dragon has usually been the complementry type of choice to maintain said Water-resistance, while also gaining resistances to Electric and Grass, both commonly thrown types at it, but Tera Fairy has also seen use to mitgate the effectiveness of Dragon-types such as Latios and Hydreigon as potential stops to a sweep. Additionally finding a majority of opportunities against physical wallbreakers unable to hurt it, with even obscenely strong wallbreakers such as Choice Band Galarian Zapdos and Tyranitar struggling to apply sufficient pressure in this regard. Overall, Dondozo’s capabilities as a physical wall have been considered by many to be far too overturned for the current metagame, thus marking it as among the most debilitating presences on this list

:kyurem: Kyurem

Kyurem ravages the metagame in a fairly similar direction to last time, the most notable additions to its offensive repertory have now included the addition of the pink blobs, which both have the potential to be 2HKOed by Specs Focus Blast, and an increase in exploration for various Tera types to be used on it, focusing on improving its defensive survivability long-term to better fare against most forms of offensive pressure, or to increase its already staggering levels of power on the Specs and Never-Melt Ice sets. Substitute + Dragon Dance variants with full bulk investment have also been experimented with for the purpose of being able to stall out its common counters, while additionally doubling as a sweeper by opting for boosted Icicle Spears late-game, and going as far as being able to reliably PP Stall Clefable’s Moonblast. Along with the defensively oppressive nature of its previous sets, Kyurem’s all-encompassing offensive movepool, combined with the safely barrier provided by said options against its most common counters, arguably comes together to push it over the edge.

:gyarados-mega: Mega Gyarados

Continuing the chain of power-creep among offensive sweepers this time around, Mega Gyarados utilzes its impressive bulk and power alongside the boosts afforded to it by Intimidate and Dragon Dance to pose as a notable threat. Taunt over the usuals of Substitute or Power Whip has recently become a popular option in the last slot, taking advantage of Gyarados’s defensive qualities between its base and Mega forms to power through would-be stops such as Skarmory and Curse Dondozo, while the continued mindgames between the variances of its typing with its base form make it no easier to deal with, demanding that teams either manage to sufficiently chip it to avoid rendering the use of otherwise revenge killers, such as Choice Scarf Meowscarada and Mega Aerodactyl, moot without a barrier of defensive safely that teams can otherwise struggle to fit. Topping this off, base forme Gyarados remains capable of threatening the use of Flying STAB to deter common physical walls used to check its Mega variant, like Buzzwole, Tangrowth, and Grass Knot Amoonguss.

:aegislash: Aegislash

Alongside Mega Gyarados as the other longest recurring watchlist member, Aegislash has since managed to reform much of its set versatility in previous metagames, and benefits immensely from the effects recent tier shifts have brought upon it. With no Gliscor around to act as the de-facto pivot into most sets, we’ve been seeing a massive increase in SubToxic variants, able to easily wear down and outlast common checks to other sets such as Ting-Lu and Gastrodon, through sheer longevity; such a set easily takes advantage of Aegislash’s outstanding defensive attributes and offensive synergy to find opportunities against Pokemon such as Slowbro, Skarmory, and many more threats unable to deal with its typing, like many variants of Galarian Zapdos and Latios. To say nothing of the continuously unrivalled potential that Swords Dance and Mixed sets bring to the table in both offensive and defensive aspects thanks to benefits of Terastalization.

:latios: Latios

A recent newcomer among most players, Latios joins this list following a pantheon of threats before it, having previously been dwarfed by the overwhelming presence of its biggest answer in Pursuit Weavile, the tier’s only faster non-scarfed Pursuit user. Calm Mind sets have since proven themselves to lack true forms of defensive counterplay, either being able to turn the tables on revenge killers with the use of Agility + Weakness Policy with Tera Steel, or with Z-Moves like Dragonium or Electrium to break past common defensive checks such as Celesteela and Mega Sableye. Combine these aspects with the ongoing uses of its exceptionally strong Specs and Life Orb sets supplemented by the offensive boosts or defensive benefits of Terastalization, the former being additionally carries the debilitating effects of Trick against most switchins, with even the potential of Choice Scarf to double as a sufficient speed control option, and you have a Pokemon that rivals the above mentions as arguably the most complete offensive presence in the metagame right now.

:sableye-mega: Mega Sableye

Stall’s large prevalence is debatable between a combination of one or more factors, and Mega Sableye remains no exception. Thanks to Magic Bounce and its auspicious typing, Mega Sableye manages to provide these teams with a significant buff in being able to deter the opposition from setting hazards while it is around, greatly improving the survivability of its teammates against the most common types of long-term offensive pressure. Alongside its solid natural bulk and immunity to status further complemented by Wish support from the most common options in either Blissey or Clefable, common hazard setters such as Gastrodon and Skarmory can find it very difficult to make any reliably forms of immediate progress in efforts to facilitate their teammates, and giving the stall team a much easier time in being able to focus on wearing down the opposition through passive damage of their own, as well as their ability to take on other would-be threats like Choice Band Tyranitar and Trick Latios when backed Mega Sableye’s aforementioned contributions. Due to the overcentralizing nature Mega Sableye brings to the hazard game, this particular aspect has also made it a very concerning point of recent discussion amongst the playerbase, and thus leads it to being included here.

:grimmsnarl: Screens

A sub-class of hyper offense structures almost single-handedly revitalized by the addition of Grimmsnarl, Screen teams benefit massively from the prevalence of a setter packing sufficient defensive attributes and ability to deny most Speed control options from stopping its setup with Prankster, now armed with the potential to launch some of our recent offensive threats to new levels of aforementioned danger, including some of the Pokemon above. Many of them, (Mega Gyarados, Aegislash, Z-Victini, Stored Power Latios, Scizor, Automize Celesteela, and Double Dance Galarian Moltres) are all examples of recipients that benefit from having their offensive prowess supplemented by Grimmsnarl’s reliability at providing the support needed for them to dish out much of their offensive potential, on top of making attempts to wear down these Pokemon much more complex and restrictive than normal. Regardless of which type of action ends up being justified, the council will continue to keep close tabs and ensure that this teamstyle does not collectively become overbearing in the future.


The council has also brought up the idea of looking into Unaware as an ability entirely, owing to the added prevalence of Unaware :clefable: Clefable on stall, but that option has since largely been eclipsed by discussions in favor of more pressing matters surrounding the topic. Other honorable mentions include the potential of various Calm Mind users such as :latias: Latias owing to the sheer defensive benefit that Terstalization provides for their capacity to sweep teams, and :blaziken: Blaziken, who was previously kept on the watchlist for its own offensive traits, but neither aspect has since managed to acquire enough exploration to be truly outstanding within the general direction the metagame has elected to take, though both very much remain as active possibilities.

If deemed appropriate, we will be expecting to conduct a vote on some of these Pokemon within the next few days. In the meantime, any discussion related to this should go in the Metagame Discussion Thread instead.
On The Radar.png
Yep the text is not lying to you and the text is not even real either, a tiering radar has appeared to give us some blessing of hope and information to the community.
and thanks to Niadev for knowing how to write by completely changing the hands section to an actual good post

As one of the biggest raises in controversy as of late, Thundurus-Therian has been terrorizing the tier for quite a while, but hasn't really picked that peak of unhealthiness due to the amount of faster offense that plagued the tier for a long time. That offense (which used to be things like Ogerpon-Cornerstone, Cinderace, Meowscarada and most importantly Latios) has disappeared completely, giving Thundurus-Therian the time to turn the metagame completely in his favor. While the Speed is not one of the highest things around, it makes up for it by not just being extremely good for a threat of it's caliber, but also with the number of setup opportunities this thing can get vs BO and Balance, thanks to their inability to properly out-offense it. From Balance cores attempting to use M-Venusaur, Bulky Offense cores with Ting-Lu and Washer getting nuked easily, to Sand teams often being forced to sacrifice Pokemon and have their Excadrill be a hindrance at times, not much can stand in the way of Nasty Plot boosted Thundurus-Therian. Pivot sets have been a good part of the metagame, as they're splashable and have good synergy with common Pokemon, but the Nasty Plot variants have been too oppressive as of late, with their massive win ratio in tournaments and enabling of other threats.

:iron hands:
:iron hands:
Another problematic threat that could also be considered a god himself, Iron Hands is also another powerful Electric in the tier that benefits from most of the more recent meta trends one way or another as, thanks to its frankly absurd bulk allowing it to avoid the OHKO from even STAB super effective hits and high power, the biggest trade (literal) machine that often favors the Hands user, and forces the opponent to use too many resources in taking it down. Iron Hands has been considered worthy of a suspect for a long time, but despite how extremely potent it's Swords Dance sets are at ripping off both Offense and Defense by itself (especially in it's flexible EV spreads that allowed it to excel on almost every matchup), or how incredibly powerful its Choice Band sets are, the presence of faster and more immediate problematic elements took the attention of most people, council included, while other things like M-Venusaur, Clefable and others somewhat kept it in check. However, said threats have been banned and the meta has shifted - these days, you see more Offense and Sand teams just get completely overwhelmed by Iron Hands, often requiring their own Iron Hands or heavy sacrifices in order to not lose, which, by that point, Iron Hands has already secured a potentially game winning advantage for its team. Throw in the aforementioned Choice Band set and its obscene power, that easily 2HKOes all but a few very specific and very bulky fighting resists, while still boasting its trademark incredible bulk, and you can quickly and easily see how Iron Hands is overwhelming both in the builder and in practice.​


is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor

Hi all! With Thundurus-Therian gone and April shifts soon, two more threats have come to our attention. Iron Hands remains on our radar, but my image editor crashed when I tried to add more delicate and well thought out content to the above graphic, and I'm sure you don't want to read the same section of text again anyways.

:arctovish: :sv/arctovish: :arctovish:
Arctovish has fallen somewhat under the radar in the past, but as of recently, its potency for cleaning teams has finally been recognised, and oh boy has it left the tier in a spot. For an example of its devastation, in this replay, Arctovish managed to take out almost the entire team by itself, the usual experience when dealing with this prehistoric ice fish. High bulk and a devastatingly powerful move in Fishious Rend, a move shared only with Smeargle and its abomination of a cousin in Ubers, Dracovish, and Slush Rush allow Arctovish to outspeed our relatively speed control deprived metagame and devastate entire teams with Snow up. As a result, we are considering a long overdue suspect test on Arctovish.

:donphan: :sv/donphan: :donphan:
Donphan is one of the best pokemon in National Dex UU. It offers the team an incredibly solid hazard setter and an incredible hazard removal with Rapid Spin, making Donphan the best role compression in the metagame. On top of that it also has access to 2 of the best move in the game, Earthquake and Knock Off, which only increases its viability and threat value. Donphan is also a potent revenge killer with acces to ice shard as a great priority attack and sturdy as an ability, rendering sweeping impossible. Donphan is considered by many the best pokemon of the national dex uu metagame, and it's truly mindboggling that national dex ou hasn't realised how amazing this pokemon is. What fools they are. As a result, we are considering suspect testing it for its overwhelming dominance.
Last edited:
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)