On Theorymon

with all these great voting threads up in stark mountain, it's not hard to find posts where people go "that's theorymon, stop it'. to be honest, i am quite sick of it.

here in smogon we're here to discuss the current metagame and future additions to it. how are we supposed to discuss all this without going to theories? are we supposed to bring in battle logs for every discussion? how is that practical? how is a battle log for one team, one battle supposed to show how broken (or not) something is in general?

the most groundbreaking and important parts of this forum is practically built around theorymon.

you can argue against someone's argument and that it is fallacious or whatever but don't argue against theorizing altogether because without it we will get nowhere quickly.
 
I actually agree with this for some parts of it. Theorymon is important for these arguments in moderate amounts, because they help to prove the logic about the actual situation at hand. For instance, if someone was trying to argue that Dragons were the best types of pokemon in the entire game, they could use deductive reasoning (A+B=>C) to argue their point using theorymon.

Eg. A - Draco Meteor is the best move in the game.
B - All Dragon types learn Draco Meteor and no other type does.
C - Therefore, Dragon types are the best pokemon in the game.

Now, while that may prove true in some cases, it's not entirely true with cases such as Altaria. That's the problem with theorymon. It may sound logical, but in practice, that logic doesn't necessarily exist. It also requires much more work to actually convince someone with theorymon, because if you don't have actual proof of what you're talking about, people may find it hard to believe you, and a lot of people using theorymon are not using any sort of proof or logic in their claims, which is why it's being looked down upon so much.

However, when people are not using theorymon for their arguments, AKA using their experiences as their source, it's a lot harder to argue with them. You can't necessarily argue with someone's experiences unless you've been with them through their entire life. You can, however comment on them. People using experiences as their source will have a much easier time to logically think of why those experiences happened, because they actually experienced it, and therefore, they're able to make a much more solid argument out of it since they don't need to provide as much proof.

An example of this in real life could be a boxing match -

A boxer just lost a match against the world champion, but they realize after the match that they were not putting the pressure on their opponent as much as they could have been, and while they were at it, they were leaving their chest unguarded. They do not need to prove this to anyone, because they were actually in the match with the world champion. They know that, logically, if they were to guard their chest while keeping the pressure on their opponent during the match, they would have stood a much better chance, and therefore they will have a much easier time explaining this to someone because it's their experience. This is an example of not using theorymon, and it should show how much easier it is to make an argument when you use your own experiences as your source of proof.

However, a fan that was watching the boxing match may just believe that the losing boxer simply is not as strong or qualified as the world champion, and that because of their body structure, the loser was not as quick as the champ. Now, in order to get people to actually listen to this argument, this fan must find some kind of proof to show that this boxer is weaker and less qualified than the champ, and that their body structure is confirmed to make them slower. The fan decides that this is too much proof to find and doesn't feel like finding it, and when he says this to people with no proof of his points, nobody takes him seriously. This is an example of what is happening when people use theorymon, because a lot of people are using it, but they do not feel like finding the necessary proof for their points, and therefore their argument becomes extremely faulty, and they fail to persuade anyone. If people are going to use theorymon to prove anything, they HAVE to use proof for their points, or just not use it at all.

Basically, in summary, using one's experiences as a source for proof makes it much easier to make a solid argument than using theorymon, which is much harder as it requires a lot more proof, which a lot of people just aren't providing, which is making the authority figures here look down on it.
 
Bologo said:
I actually agree with this for some parts of it. Theorymon is important for these arguments in moderate amounts, because they help to prove the logic about the actual situation at hand. For instance, if someone was trying to argue that Dragons were the best types of pokemon in the entire game, they could use deductive reasoning (A+B=>C) to argue their point using theorymon.

Eg. A - Draco Meteor is the best move in the game.
B - All Dragon types learn Draco Meteor and no other type does.
C - Therefore, Dragon types are the best pokemon in the game.

Yes, but a logician can quickly note that unless you prove that "Best" is a relation that transfers between pokemon and attacks, you cannot reason like that. And as you note in the next paragraph, "Best Attack" does not transfer into "Best Pokemon". More explicitly... you have a 4th assumption that you did not state:

D - A Pokemon that has the best attack is the best Pokemon in the game

which is clearly false.

I see your point however, but I'll restate it in terms I am more comfortable with :-p Logic can only prove stuff based on assumptions, and only an experienced player can build up or break down assumptions. It requires both a bit of logic and experience to see the flaws in a theorymon argument. The logical side can pinpoint logical fallacies and implicit assumptions (such as the implied relationship in your argument), and the experienced player must then note when these assumptions themselves are invalid.

I should note that I call for moderation. Experience alone breeds hubris, while logic alone is almost completely useless. A balance of the two is necessary in any argument.
 
absolutely, moderation is the key but with that, i still cringe every time people 'accuse' people of theorymon. we'll take the boxing scenario that bologo mentioned a bit further.

it may be absolutely correct that the loser lost on speed, and though added pressure and guarding your chest would've helped, the former could still be true. there is nothing wrong with the fan theorizing. heck, such curiosity is what pushes the metagame, the evolution of a sport etc. as well as the improvement of the individual player. the fact that the theorizer does not look for sufficient evidence is not a a fault of theorizing itself, it simply is not very good theorizing. furthermore, when the boxer thinks about applying pressure etc. is he not theorizing? of course he is! just because he is drawing on experience it does not mean he is automatically not applying a theory.

what really bugs me is when someone for example argues that a wobb can kill a SR user without taking any damage and the other party says 'that's just theorymon!'. even if you have never faced/used a wobb before as long as you know about it's stats and abilities you know the SR user has no chance once he catches your SR on the switch. how is theorymon in this case a bad thing then? it has gone too far.
 
I agree somewhat. What I don't agree with is people applying theorymon wrongly.

I consider myself the founder of mathematical theorymon (lol). I use mathematics to ensure myself that I know what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that people should do the same, but that people should ensure that they know what they're talking about before using theorymon.

And believe me, I've taken some criticisms too, mostly by people saying things like "I don't really know how this can be used in battling".
 
I agree with you Animenagai.

I think that "theorymon" is acceptable, and if it is wrong then that can be disputed; however, simply ruling out theorymon in a discussion is not a good direction to take.

When lawyers argue, they may have not experienced everything they are debating. They use well grounded research and statistics, among other things, to back up their arguments.

Investigators also use knowledge that is not always first hand. For example, an investigator might not have witnessed a stabbing first hand, but can tell how the stabbing happened based on the wound and the surroundings.

I also agree with X-Act. If you are going to use theorymon, you should definitely know what you are talking about.

Adding statistics to back up your theorymon arguments makes your claim all the more believable.
 
I was kinda' confused when I first heard the word used while lurking around. Basically it's just someone rationalizing something with the use of a theory?
 
I was kinda' confused when I first heard the word used while lurking around. Basically it's just someone rationalizing something with the use of a theory?
Usually it involves somebody setting up a theoretical scenerio (If Garchomp switches in on a ground weak pokemon, he can Swords Dance on the switch) but it can also refer to people trying to make subjective claims sound objective (Garchomp is the best pokemon because . . .). People generally use it as a surrogate for proof when they don't have experience with the subject, not that that's a bad thing.

I hope I explained that right.
 
I agree entirely. The current uber or not votes for Wobby and Deoxys Speed form are great examples, as so many people who vote uber for reasons that we all know exist, yet didnt cite were shut down as "just theorymon."

Statistics has weaknesses, too. Specifically, the age-old idea that correlation and causation are not always together. If a vast majority of the top players on shoddy at some cutoff point use Flareon, is Flareon a good poke? By some the answer would be yes, as teams with it are winning. Yet theoretically, we'd have to say no because of its movepool vs stat spread, and say its not worth having on a team for OU play. The reason for the stat could be that prediction skill and overall team makeup is more important than a single pokemon, for instance.

You need both to make a successful argument, stats are very easily manipulated, just like theory. Even then, there really is no objective argument, any stance on any matter will contain some opinion unless you're arguing that Garchomp has a base 102 speed or something.
 
I'm fairly sure it's because we've been theorymoning for over two years now. The arguments using theory have been made. All opinions at this stage need to be supported by evidence. Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S for example have been allowed in the Shoddy Official Server Ladder for quite some time now. There should be plenty of evidence for your claims.
 
with all these great voting threads up in stark mountain, it's not hard to find posts where people go "that's theorymon, stop it'. to be honest, i am quite sick of it.

here in smogon we're here to discuss the current metagame and future additions to it. how are we supposed to discuss all this without going to theories? are we supposed to bring in battle logs for every discussion? how is that practical? how is a battle log for one team, one battle supposed to show how broken (or not) something is in general?

the most groundbreaking and important parts of this forum is practically built around theorymon.

you can argue against someone's argument and that it is fallacious or whatever but don't argue against theorizing altogether because without it we will get nowhere quickly.

Theorymon is fine. The problem is when a topic asks for comments based on experience, such as a Wobbuffet voting topic, and someone doesn't give any comments outside of theorymon.
 
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