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One question I have been dying to figure out...
- Thread starter Kofii
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I'm not an expert on the uber metagame but I would suppose it's the combination of good defensive typing (we all know how popular bulky waters are) combined with the sweeping potential of Tail Glow that outweighs the hindrance of his limited offensive movepool. Hydration is no Natural Cure but it doesn't help his case for OU either and the 600 base stats more or less sealed his fate.
Personally I think it's a shame, since I'd like to see more done with the weather effects in OU and Manaphy might have made Rain Dance teams a little more viable.
Personally I think it's a shame, since I'd like to see more done with the weather effects in OU and Manaphy might have made Rain Dance teams a little more viable.
Problem about that "combo" is that you have to make a Rain dance team to support Manaphy's Hydration rest, Kyogre can't help it OU. Manaphy only has 3 usable physical attacks (Waterfall, U turn, and a normal move) so it's easier to predict its moveset. Jirachi and Celebi both have those stats and no one is complaining. Also so many other pokemon have Nasty Plot/ Calm mind, this pokemon just doesn't seem good enough and unpredictable enough to be considered uber.
Celebi has the stats of a Manaphy, but poor typing. Well, as should be emphasized, even though Celebi has 7 weaknesses (tied for most), most of those weaknesses aren't crippling. But in the end, Celebi has poor typing. Celebii's sweeping is only effective because of the surprise, and in the end it's just not that difficult to counter.
Jirachi has damn good typing and a damn good ability. You know why Jirachi is OU? Jirachi doesn't have a great variety in movepool. In the end, it isn't hard to predict a Jirachi and counter it in OU.
Manaphy has damn good typing, an great ability, and the ability to use the ability excessively well. It takes two move slots, but RainResting is just amazing. If you want, Manaphy has Tail Glow, though with Rain Rest you'd have just one attack. But Manaphy has the ability to use it's movepool well. If it has rain set up, Manaphy can have Rest, Tail Glow, and two attacks, with good coverage. It's quite difficult to counter. Search may not be working, but use Google to look up some of the older Manaphy discussions. I believe they tested Manaphy, and it got bumped up after that. I've seen warstories from early D/P, pre Uber Manaphy. Those are....bloodbaths. By a Water pokemon.
Jirachi has damn good typing and a damn good ability. You know why Jirachi is OU? Jirachi doesn't have a great variety in movepool. In the end, it isn't hard to predict a Jirachi and counter it in OU.
Manaphy has damn good typing, an great ability, and the ability to use the ability excessively well. It takes two move slots, but RainResting is just amazing. If you want, Manaphy has Tail Glow, though with Rain Rest you'd have just one attack. But Manaphy has the ability to use it's movepool well. If it has rain set up, Manaphy can have Rest, Tail Glow, and two attacks, with good coverage. It's quite difficult to counter. Search may not be working, but use Google to look up some of the older Manaphy discussions. I believe they tested Manaphy, and it got bumped up after that. I've seen warstories from early D/P, pre Uber Manaphy. Those are....bloodbaths. By a Water pokemon.
Blissey is that way too, but it just doesn't make sense. How many special attack moves can this pokemon use effectively? Let see:
Surf
Shadow Ball
Hidden Power
Ice Beam
Energy Ball
Grass Knot
That's it, now tell me that since it can't be physical sweep well, it isn't predictable. And don't people have phazers? Taunters? I'm pretty sure Infernape can take it out.
Surf
Shadow Ball
Hidden Power
Ice Beam
Energy Ball
Grass Knot
That's it, now tell me that since it can't be physical sweep well, it isn't predictable. And don't people have phazers? Taunters? I'm pretty sure Infernape can take it out.
Infernape is easily OHKO'd by Surf, before TG or Rain, and a Grass Knot won't OHKO before Nasty Plot, and doubtfully after (depending on Manaphy's EVs). I doubt CC on the standard MixApe would OHKO either, given Manaphy's excellent defensive stats. I'm not sure Infernape can OHKO Manaphy at all short of Adamant CB Close Combat, and I haven't run the calcs on that, so I'm not even sure if that'll work.
At this point, Manaphy TGs again, then sweeps you, recovering off the damage with Rest.
At this point, Manaphy TGs again, then sweeps you, recovering off the damage with Rest.
Sceptile is rarely used as anything other than a SubSeeder, and the SubSeeders don't usually carry powerful Grass moves, but rather, Fire type moves to take down Grassers immune to Leech Seed. Also, Sceptile dies to Ice Beam, and even Surf. . . Besides, it's not hard to switch to Bronzong, wall you completely, and set up Rain for Manaphy at the same time.
Electivire dies to Surf, and is slower. If it is faster for whatever reason, just switch to your Electivire counter, or better yet, Dugtrio. Trap and kill. Bring Manaphy back in and sweep.
Tauntrados? LOL. Manaphy is always faster before a DD, which it can use to Tail Glow, at which point it can Grass Knot Gyarados (which is, more likely than not, a 2HKO). Not to mention Manaphy resists Waterfall and Ice Fang, leaving a mere 100 BP Earthquake to hurt Manaphy with.
You seem to forget that you can have 6 Pokemon, not just Manaphy. This is 6 v 6, not 1 v 6.
Edit: Beaten.
Electivire dies to Surf, and is slower. If it is faster for whatever reason, just switch to your Electivire counter, or better yet, Dugtrio. Trap and kill. Bring Manaphy back in and sweep.
Tauntrados? LOL. Manaphy is always faster before a DD, which it can use to Tail Glow, at which point it can Grass Knot Gyarados (which is, more likely than not, a 2HKO). Not to mention Manaphy resists Waterfall and Ice Fang, leaving a mere 100 BP Earthquake to hurt Manaphy with.
You seem to forget that you can have 6 Pokemon, not just Manaphy. This is 6 v 6, not 1 v 6.
Edit: Beaten.
Manaphy is uber for the fact that with Hydration and rain support, this thing can use Rest with no ill consequences, and add to the point, it has Tail Glow to raise its Sp. Atk to sick levels, and a TG'd Surf in the rain can do around 50%+ to a standard 714/306 Blissey, and it learns Ice Beam and Grass Knot, ripping apart its resistances. In a matter of a few turns, Manaphy can start raping teams that do not have Shedinja.
To make a long post short, Manaphy is uber. Simple Question, Simple Answer next time, Kofii.
To make a long post short, Manaphy is uber. Simple Question, Simple Answer next time, Kofii.
Electivire's max atk Thunder Punch does 84.65% - 99.50% to a Manaphy with max HP with Life positive natured atk on a neutral natured Manaphy/0 EVs in DEF.
With Life Orb and same situation, He does 76.73% - 90.35%
67.08% - 78.96% (with 252 evs in DEF)
So there is a chance of electivire 2HKOing Manaphy.
For max atk (293) Sceptile against Manaphy:
Life Orbed Leaf Blade 71.78% - 84.41% to a 100 def EV max HP Manaphy
Life Orbed Leaf Blade 79.21% - 93.07% to a 0 def EV max HP Manaphy
With Life Orb and same situation, He does 76.73% - 90.35%
67.08% - 78.96% (with 252 evs in DEF)
So there is a chance of electivire 2HKOing Manaphy.
For max atk (293) Sceptile against Manaphy:
Life Orbed Leaf Blade 71.78% - 84.41% to a 100 def EV max HP Manaphy
Life Orbed Leaf Blade 79.21% - 93.07% to a 0 def EV max HP Manaphy
They're not counters to Manaphy simply because they can't switch in. If you let Manaphy kill something, and then switch in E-Vire/Sceptile, they can easily switch Manaphy out to their Physical Wall.
Edit: Beaten
Right now I'm posting counters, for it. And Why do you people keep on saying, "Oh noes Hydration rest combo!", you guy attack as if people can't predict, we're stupid and just dumb down against a Manaphy and will let it set up on us. Geez, it takes turns to set up and we can set up too.
Anyways:
Max Sp atk Porygon-Z Life Orb Adaptability
Tri Attack does 40.59% - 47.77% to a Max HP 178 Sp. DEF Manaphy neutral nature
Thunderbolt does 64.36% - 75.50% to a Max HP, 178 Sp. DEF Manaphy
neutral nature
Anyways:
Max Sp atk Porygon-Z Life Orb Adaptability
Tri Attack does 40.59% - 47.77% to a Max HP 178 Sp. DEF Manaphy neutral nature
Thunderbolt does 64.36% - 75.50% to a Max HP, 178 Sp. DEF Manaphy
neutral nature
tail glow makes manaphy an uber but azelf has much better sats for nasty plot than manaphy has for tail glow. I've always thought manaphy should be OU.
Yeah but Manaphy has reasonably Bulky defenses whereas Azelf.... hast the dfenses of a paper bag :/
manaphy is lie suicune just with a +2 satk boost, and 100 base speed. Water typing is great opposed to a similar stats pokemon celebi. The move pool is great and if you build it bulky with a rain dance its nearly unstoppable.
Can't switch in, not a counter.
Congrats. Seriously, I don't understand why its so hard to understand that you can't use the performance of Manaphy in Uber to ban it from OU. Anyway, Manaphy was emperically tested for a few months in the OU environment. After this period of testing, Manaphy was banned to Uber.
Tail Glow made it exceptionally powerful, and unlike the "other" pokemon with a Nasty Plot set, Manaphy can actually withstand a few hits while having enough speed to tie with Zapdos.
I mean, look at the other Nasty Plotters. Azelf dies almost as quickly as Alakazam. Slowking can't sweep. After factoring Togekiss's lower HP, Togekiss only ties with Sp. Def and is worse in physical defense and has much worse speed.
Comparing Calm Mind to Nasty Plot is like comparing Bulk Up to Swords Dance. The opponent only has to take 1 hit from a nasty-plotted attack in order to "make up" for the turn setting up. On the other hand, you require 2 hits after a Calm Mind. If you calm mind twice, you need to attack for 2 turns. Essentially, 2 turns of setup vs 4.
Further, Rest / Hydration was a very broken set. Bronzong easily set Manaphy up while negating its only weakness to fire.
No you are not. A counter can switch in on any of Manaphy's attacks and come out on top. Manaphy doesn't run from Electivire, Infernape, or Sceptile. It kills them with surf / ice beam.
That is not a counter. Porygon Z will die from Surf before it can kill Manaphy.
Ready for a little lecture...
Can Electivire switch in, no... It is 2HKO'ed by Surf and out-sped... Say you switch Electivire in to Manaphy, it loses over fifty percent of its health, Manaphy Surfs again and kills of Electivire before it can do anything...
Exact same scenario for Porygon-Z...
If it has Ice Beam, which some Manaphy's do, Bye Bye Sceptile... It gets OHKO'ed on the switch... Even Surf can do quite a bit to it...
Only some very overspecialized counters would be needed to take it down... Psych Up Blissey is seriously the only one I can think of, and how often are those seen??? Over-centralizing the Metagame much??? That is the very definition of Uber: "Too strong to be used in OU that it would Over-centralize the metagame"... Manaphy is even great in ubers!!!
When Manaphy was being tested in OU, I didn't even use HydroRest, and it still swept teams. And I was a noob back then... I made my own unique sets for every pokemon, and almost all of them involved a straight attacking move set with a Life Orb. Thats what I used with Manaphy, thats the only reason I didn't lose every single match... [/condescending]
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