Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]

[Mulan15262]

Any reason to keep evasion moves banned, considering Flash, Sand Attack and Mud-Slap have very wide distribution ando practically the same thing?

I'd prefer banning accuracy-lowering moves. They all have a negative effect on skill and reduce match results to mere luck. That was the argument for banning evasion-boosting moves in standard metagames. Accuracy-lowering moves were not banned because you could switch out to negate their effects. In 1v1, though, you can't switch. So accuracy lowering and evasion raising moves are identical. Making evasion raising moves legal would just cause more problems. Accuracy lowering moves should not be legal, though.

 

[HedgeKnight]

I'd prefer banning accuracy-lowering moves. They all have a negative effect on skill and reduce match results to mere luck. That was the argument for banning evasion-boosting moves in standard metagames. Accuracy-lowering moves were not banned because you could switch out to negate their effects. In 1v1, though, you can't switch. So accuracy lowering and evasion raising moves are identical. Making evasion raising moves legal would just cause more problems. Accuracy lowering moves should not be legal, though.

Honestly, I would be happiest if confusion was banned as well, for the same reason, but that's just me.

 

[Erza98]

If banning Mega Kangaskhan doesn't seem acceptable, I guess we could create two 1v1 metagames: one will be used to play EVERY POKÉMON (including Ubers like Groudon) and the second one will be used to play with every Pokémon unless they are banned from Over Used base metagame.
Yes /no

 

[KnightK]

One of the reasons Mega Kanga is (In my opinion) broken for 1v1. Is fake out is a huge threat in 1v1, and always has been. Mega Kanga is the only pokemon that can virtually fake out for free damage against ANY pokemon that isn't rocking protect/spiky shield & king's shield/inner focus. If the pokemon is not ghost, you hit it with stab parental bond fake out which hits HARD. If it is a ghost type, you can stay as Scrappy Kanga and hit it normally. Mega kanga remains the only fake out user with scrappy. Which also assures it a free safe transition into Mega form practically every time. And that is assuming it is even running scrappy to begin.

It can run early bird to counter sleep spammers which are all so common in 1v1. Or inner focus to protect itself from faster fake out users. Typically in 1v1 the second you see the pokemon come out you know what ability it is running. For Mega Kanga it can be a guessing game, and this is even furthered farther by its HUGE movepool.

Not to say there aren't counters, Cofagrigus, Avalugg work well against it. I typically run a stalling Gourgeist, sableye, or Mega gardevoir to counter it. Its just seems in the process of switching to counters I lose out on a lot of the power I wold normally use in my classes just trying to counter one pokemon.

Edit: After trying the Avalugg set it was rather good, but kept dying to Mega Kanga w/ Seismic toss. Fakeout then two seismic tosses take out Avalugg no matter how high your defense is.

Edit:Edit: Also Guts Conkeldurr with Protect is a phenomenonl counter. Protect first turn protects you from fake out which also activates the flame orb. Then Drain punch/mach punch ftw.

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

Yeah kanga should probably be banned, but I certainly agree with erza, we NEED ubers 1v1.

 

[Rotosect]

Giga Impact is actually a legit move on M-Kanga in this metagame. It pretty much OHKO's everything that doesn't resist normal after Fake Out.

 

[HedgeKnight]

We should hold a vote for mega kangaskhan.

I wonder though: Is blaziken actually broken in 1v1?

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

Hedge, blaziken is ok I guess, it's not that good.

 

[KnightK]

Yea we definitely need a vote for mega kanga, as for other banned megas such as Gengar & Blaziken I don't know. They are definitely not as strong in singles as 1v1, but whether they are still above what 1v1 is considered 'fair' is debatable. Although they both have numerous counters and aren't as effective in 1v1 as singles.

Multiscale dragonite, choice scarf Garchomp, Latios/Latias, Talonflame, Azumarill, choice scarf kyurem black. All make rather good blaziken counters.

Edit: Also Mega pinsir is a decent check
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Blaziken: 258-306 (85.7 - 101.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

[The Immortal]

Alright guys, after reading the arguments (especially Giga Impact, which I did not think of before) and testing it out on the ladder, I have decided to ban Kangaskhanite.

 

[goodknife]

Alright guys, after reading the arguments (especially Giga Impact, which I did not think of before) and testing it out on the ladder, I have decided to ban Kangaskhanite.

please dont, i want some free rating from my kanga killer (and some people even try to fake out ghost..)

 

[Rotosect]

I believe Mud-Slap, Flash, Smokescreen and Sand Attack should be banned (maybe Kinses too, but it's only 80% accuracy so it's less reliable) because they turn what is supposed to be a strict rock-paper-scissors metagame into a randomfest.
In 1v1 they do the same thing as Double Team, which is banned, and their combined distribution is so huge that chances are you'll be able to slap one of those moves onto your pokemon of choice and proceed to turn every unfavorable match-up into a series of coin flips.

I'm going to post a couple of replays of an extreme case (level 1 Magnemite) to prove what accuracy drop hax is capable of:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77633108
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77635464

For a less extreme case, Mega Venusaur abusing Mud-Slap:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77641095
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77643953

 

[Erza98]

You said it, it's like rock-scissor-paper. You can't ban every Pokémon/move you can't counter, or we will only have Magikarp in this metagame.

 

[Rotosect]

You said it, it's like rock-scissor-paper. You can't ban every Pokémon/move you can't counter, or we will only have Magikarp in this metagame.

The point is that if Double Team is banned, there is no reason accuracy dropping moves shouldn't because they're pretty much the same thing.
If the above replays weren't enough I've got a few more.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77803151
Mega Venusaur beating Taunt+Metal Burst Mega Aggron thanks to Mud-Slap spam.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77804671
Accuracy- hax vs Confusion hax. Accuracy- hax wins.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77807135
Avoided a 3HKO thanks to Mud-Slap.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77806880
Not sure why my opponent kepts using Fire Blast here, maybe because he assumed I was running a physically defensive variant?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77800822
Magnemite is supposed to lose here as soon as it gets flinched, but it doesn't thanks to Flash hax.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77800697
Didn't even need Toxic here thanks to LO recoil. Again, without Flash hax this match would have been lost as soon as Iron Head flinched. Those misses ensured I always had an emergency Berry Juice ready so the cards were stacked in my favor.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77800462
If you face a Dragonite holding a Lum Berry and use Toxic on turn 1 you lose, but if you use Flash all you have to do is waiting for a miss and you've pretty much won after that. This particular Dragonite didn't hold a Lum Berry but the principle is still the same.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77801361
This one made me just feel bad.

 

[Erza98]

Okay, I understand this can be annoying if you encounter Mud-Slap or Double Team at every match. But in that case you have to evolve with the 1v1 metagame, and pick a Pokémon with No Guard, like Machamp or Doublade with a Ballon. You also can use Defog to lower foe's evasion, Haze to remove stats who changed like evasion or accuracy... etc.

 

[goodknife]

my member :3

(currently banned)
Early Bird (Kangaskhan) (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 200 HP / 52 Atk / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Impish Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Crunch
- Protect
- Yawn

(HYPER BEAM FTW)
Trace (Gardevoir) (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 248 SAtk / 152 Spd / 108 Def
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Protect
- Disable
- Encore

(HEX: Mega killer)
Serene Grace (Togekiss) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 168 Spd / 252 SAtk / 88 Def
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 HP
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Heat Wave
- Trick

(previous mega kang killer, but still working to some physical)
Prankster (Sableye) (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SDef / 248 HP / 8 Spd
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Snarl
- Recover

(old lil chansey)
Serene Grace (Chansey) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef / 4 Spd
Bold Nature
- Counter
- Toxic
- Charge Beam
- Soft-Boiled

(flash test)
Sturdy (Magnemite) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 252 Def
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Flash
- Recycle
- Swagger

(flash test again)
Chlorophyll (Venusaur) (F) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Spd / 248 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Flash
- Sludge Bomb

 

[Rotosect]

(flash test again)
Chlorophyll (Venusaur) (F) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Spd / 248 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Flash
- Sludge Bomb

I think I just lost to this set; got a taste of my own medicine.

Here's Deoxys-S abusing Flash and Mud-Slap:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77825214
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77824971
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77823125

Also more Magnemite fun:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77828195
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-77826923

 

[perplexingpool]

Okay, I understand this can be annoying if you encounter Mud-Slap or Double Team at every match. But in that case you have to evolve with the 1v1 metagame, and pick a Pokémon with No Guard, like Machamp or Doublade with a Ballon. You also can use Defog to lower foe's evasion, Haze to remove stats who changed like evasion or accuracy... etc.

The reason moves like Mud-Slap and Flash should be banned is not necessarily because they are broken, but rather because evasion boosting moves are banned, and accuracy lowering moves do the same thing and are not. It would be like in OU if Moody were banned, but there was another ability that did the exact same thing and wasn't.

 

[Rotosect]

Liepard @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Spd / 170 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Swagger
- Foul Play
- Sand Attack
- Substitute


How do you make Liepard's notorious Prankster troll set exponentially more annoying? By using a move that is for all intents and purposes the same as Thunder Wave, except it works on everything save for very few specific pokemon (Clear Body, Contrary and Keen Eye users) and stacks with itself up to 6 times.
The first Sand Attack lowers accuracy by 25%, which is the same as a full paralysis chance, and it can be stacked until the accuracy is dropped by 66%.
The speeds EVs are to outpace standard Whimsicott sets, while the rest is self-explainatory.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-78103823
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-78103267

 

[Shax]

A Slaking with Chople Berry could reliably take on Mega Khangaskhan if it had Max Def+ with Max HP and Dynamic Punch for Confusion hax. It could also get the job done with Hammer Arm but not like Dynamic Punch could.

Also, the Deoxys-D set I posted on the first page can take down Megas, it's just difficult to do so since your locked into a Recover and hope that they run out of PP with your Pressure before you do Recovers.

 

[Pikachuun]

A Slaking with Chople Berry could reliably take on Mega Khangaskhan if it had Max Def+ with Max HP and Dynamic Punch for Confusion hax. It could also get the job done with Hammer Arm but not like Dynamic Punch could.

A Slaking with Chople Berry could reliably take on Mega Khangaskhan if it had Dynamic Punch.

A Slaking with Dynamic Punch

No. Just no. Use hammer arm. Don't use dynamic punch. You'll lose less often with hammer arm. Please. For the sake of the slaking not dying repeatedly due to misses, don't use dynamic punch.

 

[TheTraininator]

So I've been running this set, which I've found works well most of the time:

Mew @ Choice Scarf
Timid Nature (+Spe -Att)
252 HP, 252 Spe, 4 SpAtt
- Trick
- Transform
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere

The premise is simple: Trick lock the opponent, transform into them, and use their gimmicks against them. If presented with an obvious Mega, Transform immediately. Psychic and Aura Sphere are simply for coverage when you can win without needing to Trick/Transform. Overall, the set has worked all, but occasionally I've run into some... issues...

...Such as these: FML and FML 2: Electric Boogaloo

 

[TBF Bri 10]

Here's something that got me to #2 on the ladder with a score of 1605 and a record of 45-19:

Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 8 SDef / 248 HP / 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Metal Burst
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Head Smash

The 248 HP is to keep it at an odd HP variable and to make sure Metal Burst does as much damage as possible. Metal Burst is also good at stopping Endeavor users. Iron Head is for stab and flinching out level 1 Magnemite who would otherwise troll. Earthquake is for coverage. Head Smash is for stab and to troll Mega Charizard X/Y with ties. The 0 IVs in speed is to make sure Metal Burst works since it doesn't have negative priority.

Aggron was already decent in the Gen 5 1v1 meta, but he's a lot better in the Gen 6 meta due to the overabundance of Mega Charizard X/Y, other fire types, and fairies.

 

[Mulan15262]

Here's something that got me to #2 on the ladder with a score of 1605 and a record of 45-19:

Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 8 SDef / 248 HP / 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Metal Burst
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Head Smash

The 248 HP is to keep it at an odd HP variable and to make sure Metal Burst does as much damage as possible. Metal Burst is also good at stopping Endeavor users. Iron Head is for stab and flinching out level 1 Magnemite who would otherwise troll. Earthquake is for coverage. Head Smash is for stab and to troll Mega Charizard X/Y with ties. The 0 IVs in speed is to make sure Metal Burst works since it doesn't have negative priority.

Aggron was already decent in the Gen 5 1v1 meta, but he's a lot better in the Gen 6 meta due to the overabundance of Mega Charizard X/Y, other fire types, and fairies.

Head Smash is bad as you will frequently be at 1 HP when you attack, so Head Smashing then will force you to tie or lose.

 

[CF6]

My two main pokemon for 1v1

Klefki (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Foul Play
- Swagger
- Substitute

and

Dragonite (M) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Multiscale
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- ExtremeSpeed