Metagame ORAS Little Cup

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LC Leader
This thread is for all of the previous generations of Little Cup, and should be used as a discussion point for all things OldGens LC, including metagame trends, good teams, play-styles, and possible future suspect tests. If you're posting here, make sure to specify what generation you are talking about before you post. I hope this can mainly be used as a one-track resource for picking up one of these metagames, or not having to dig around somewhere in Cold Storage for old, or potentially outdated threads and information.

Take note that these posts are in BETA. More will be added to them.

If you're looking for Sample Teams for prior Generations of LC, you can find those here.

Major shoutouts to all of the people who's work I collected. Including but not limited to... Fiend Mambo Quote macle Ray Jay Elevator Music blarajan iss GOAO Heysup Seven Deadly Sins Aerow Corporal Levi slurmz ggggd

XY


Pokemon Eligibility
In order to be used in LC, a Pokemon must comply with the following criteria:
  • The Pokemon must be able to evolve.
  • The Pokemon must be at its earliest evolution stage.
  • The Pokemon must be at level 5.
Clauses
Little Cup, like other metagames, uses clauses to ensure the most competitive environment. These are:
  • Species Clause: Only one Pokemon from each species may be on a team.
  • Sleep Clause: Only one Pokemon per team can be put to sleep by an opponent at a time.
  • OHKO Clause: Moves that score a guaranteed OHKO on the opponent (Sheer Cold, Horn Drill, Guillotine, and Fissure) are banned.
  • Evasion Clause: Moves that boost evasion (e.g. Double Team and Minimize) are not allowed. Note that moves with an alternative purpose that also incidentally affect evasion (such as Defog and Acupressure) are allowed.
Banned Moves and Abilities
Dragon Rage: This move always inflicts 40 damage on the foe, unless it is a Fairy-type. This move is an absurdity in LC, where no Pokemon can even reach an HP stat above 40.
Sonic Boom: This move always inflicts 20 damage on the foe, unless it is a Ghost-type. Although it is less brutal than Dragon Rage, it is still enough to instantly take out a large portion of the tier.
Swagger: In conjunction with moves such as Thunder Wave, this move could successfully immobilize an opposing Pokemon while dealing rather consistent damage. It was deemed uncompetitive and banned from the tier.
Moody: This ability increases a random stat by 2 and decreases a random stat by 1 at the end of each turn. It is considered too random to be competitively relevant.


Banned Pokemon
Base Stats: 70 HP / 110 Atk / 80 Def / 55 SpA / 80 SpD / 105 Spe
Abilities: Swarm / Technician / Steadfast

Scyther's base stats, which are actually the same in total as its evolution, Scizor, are simply too good to allow Scyther to battle with the rest of LC. Scyther has access to everything it needs to abuse these high stats, including boosting moves (Swords Dance and Agility) and strong STAB (Technician-boosted Aerial Ace and Bug Bite). It even has priority, again boosted by Technician, in Quick Attack. Scyther has never been unbanned and likely never will be.

Base Stats: 55 HP / 95 Atk / 55 Def / 35 SpA / 75 SpD / 115 Spe
Abilities: Inner Focus / Keen Eye / Pickpocket

While not as extreme as Scyther in stats, Sneasel still has excellent offensive STAB moves and a simply brilliant stat spread for its role. Sneasel was actually temporarily allowed in early XY LC, but it was banned due to its extremely strong Knock Off (which also was buffed in the transition to XY), which by itself, or in conjunction with Ice Punch and Brick Break, was able to wear down Sneasel's common switch-ins. Furthermore, Sneasel was difficult to revenge kill due to its access to a priority move, Ice Shard.

Base Stats: 65 HP / 55 Atk / 115 Def / 100 SpA / 40 SpD / 60 Spe
Abilities: Chlorophyll / Leaf Guard / Regenerator

Tangela was of the first Pokemon banned by the LC Council in XY. Tangela was originally allowed into the metagame, but it was found to be simply too strong and bulky, especially when running its signature set of Sleep Powder, Solarbeam, and Ancient Power with support from Drought Vulpix. Even outside of the sun, Tangela could run a devastatingly resilient defensive set or an extremely strong and durable Life Orb set that used Leaf Storm and Regenerator. Tangela was banned by a unanimous vote from the LC council.

Base Stats: 65 HP / 65 Atk / 45 Def / 75 SpA / 45 SpD / 95 Spe
Abilities: Speed Boost / Compound Eyes / Frisk

Yanma was the second Pokemon banned by the LC Council in XY. Yanma had two destructive sets that were simply too strong for the Little Cup metagame: a Speed Boost set, which easily sweep opponents late-game when priority users had been eliminated, and a Compound Eyes set that utilized Hypnosis and Yanma's 20 Speed to cripple all potential counters and either set up with Substitute or get out with STAB U-turn. Ultimately, the proliferation of the second set, one that was simply too fast, strong, and unstoppable for LC, was what pushed Yanma over the edge and led to a unanimous vote.

Base Stats: 65 HP / 75 Atk / 105 Def / 35 SpA / 65 SpD / 85 Spe
Abilities: Hyper Cutter / Sand Veil / Immunity

Gligar's unique typing and great offensive and defensive stats were what led to its inevitable ban from XY LC. It could run a variety of sets, from a support hazard setter to a Swords Dance sweeper. After the ban of Yanma and Tangela, Gligar became the most over-centralizing Pokemon in the tier, proved by an astounding 47% usage rate. Little Cup became a metagame filled with Choice Scarf Hidden Power Ice Pokemon with the intent of taking on Gligar, and the "Fly Scorpion"'s versatility was deemed to much for the tier.

Base Stats: 62 HP / 48 Atk / 66 Def / 59 SpA / 57 SpD / 49 Spe
Abilities: Sweet Veil / Unburden

Aw, look at how cute and innocent Swirlix looks. Wrong! This new Fairy-type sweeper was one of, if not, the most terrifying Pokemon in Little Cup. Capable of running a variety of sets, Swirlix began to dominate the tier with its fantastic combination of Belly Drum, Cotton Guard, Calm Mind, and Unburden, being even further bolstered by a diverse movepool. There was no way to know if your "Swirlix counter" would actually counter the opposing Swirlix, and this versatility was just too much for Little Cup to handle.

Base Stats: 60 HP / 85 Atk / 42 Def / 85 SpA / 42 SpD / 91 Spe
Abilities: Insomnia / Super Luck / Prankster

Murkrow's fantastic offensive stats, coupled with access to solid STAB moves in Brave Bird and Dark Pulse, made it a huge threat in Little Cup. It could effectively sweep with an extremely threatening Life Orb set, an annoying Substitute + Thief set, or even a Prankster + Haze utility set. Its offensive capabilities, useful support movepool, and ability to disrupt an opponent's entire plan led to its ban from the tier.

Base Stats: 30 HP / 40 Atk / 55 Def / 40 SpA / 55 SpD / 60 Spe
Abilities: Pure Power / Telepathy

At first glance, Meditite's stats seem underwhelming, but it was blessed with Pure Power, an amazing ability that doubled its Attack to a toppling 28. This, in conjunction with a solid movepool and decent bulk, made Meditite the most devastating wallbreaker in Little Cup. A Choice Scarf would patch up Meditite's average Speed stat, and an Eviolite would mend its rather mediocre bulk, increasing Meditite's viability as a threat.

Base Stats: 60 HP / 60 Atk / 60 Def / 85 SpA / 85 SpD / 85 Spe
Abilities: Levitate

Misdreavus's ban was rather controversial, as many users were unsure of their feelings towards the Ghost-type. The omnipresent Knock Off and emergence of Choice Scarf Pawniard seemed to keep Misdreavus in check, and the variety of bulky Normal- and Dark-types proved to be a challenge for Misdreavus to switch into and perform its role effectively. However, its 19 Speed, 18 Special Attack, and access to a variety of great support and offensive moves led to its ban from the tier.


Base Stats: 90 HP / 50 Atk / 34 Def / 60 SpA / 44 SpD / 70 Spe
Abilities: Aftermath / Unburden / Flare Boost

Drifloon's ban, similarly to Misdreavus' ban, was also rather controversial, as it's ability to completely stall out a specific check has never been seen before in Little Cup. The Ghost / Flying type has the ability Unburden, which gives the balloon a massive jump in speed, outspeeding many choice scarf users. Couple this with a Berry Juice as an item, which allows it to fully heal itself; finally the tipping point being the variety of it's moveset, Recycle allows it to fully heal itself again, Substitute allows it to waste turns and use it's Berry Juice, Will-o-wisp to char down and stall out a majority of it's potential threats, Acrobatics gives Drifloon a powerful Flying-type STAB, and Calm Mind allows Drifloon to set up on special hitters or behind substitutes. Overall, Drifloon's diversity in sets and ability to deal with checks and counters led to a ban.

Items
What You Should Use

Berry Juice
Aside from being simply delicious, Berry Juice restores 20 HP when the holder's HP drops below 50%. This allows most Pokemon in Little Cup to completely or almost completely restore their HP after taking a hit or two. This is exceptional on most setup sweepers that are comfortable taking a hit, as it allows them to potentially sweep while being at full health. Some Pokemon that synergize particularly well with Berry Juice include Drifloon, Archen, Tirtouga, and Dwebble. Drifloon uses Berry Juice and Unburden to begin sweeping after accruing a few boosts; Archen heals with Berry Juice and then attacks with a boosted Acrobatics; and both Tirtouga and Dwebble have the combination of Sturdy and Shell Smash, which allows them to set up a Shell Smash and still have the potential to take another hit with Sturdy after regaining full HP with Berry Juice.

Choice Scarf
Choice Scarf boosts the holder's Speed by 1.5x but forces it to only select one of its moves each time it switches in. This makes Choice Scarf perfect for letting a Pokemon revenge kill specific threats, and it is frequently seen on Pokemon that have wide coverage, have some sort of method of maintaining momentum, reach at least 14 Speed (21 with a Choice Scarf, which is enough to outspeed all unboosted LC Pokemon), or have any combination of the above. Magnemite is a prime example of such a Pokemon, as it hits 14 Speed, can revenge kill many of the large threats in the metagame (such as Fletchling), can 2HKO many switch-ins before they get a chance to strike, and has the added bonus of a Steel typing, which can aid its longevity. Chinchou is also a common Choice Scarf user, as it has good coverage and Volt Switch. Inkay is almost never seen without a Choice Scarf. This allows it to spam Superpower and gain boosts from it via Contrary. Bunnelby is also a frequent user, as its middling Speed is repaired through Choice Scarf, and it likes to spam Huge Power-boosted Returns anyway.

Eviolite
Eviolite gives any unevolved Pokemon a 1.5x boost to both its Defense and Special Defense stats. In Little Cup, every single Pokemon can take advantage of this boost. The most notable users are walls and defensive pivots with some form of recovery (e.g. Vullaby and Mienfoo) or Pokemon with a boosting move who appreciate the added bulk while trying to set up (e.g. Scraggy and Honedge). Eviolite is a big reason why Little Cup has slowed down since DPP, which featured mostly heavily offensive teams. Eviolite was suspected at the beginning of BW LC, but it was not banned and is now firmly accepted as a staple of the Little Cup metagame.

Life Orb
Life Orb gives a 1.3x boost to the holder's attacks at the cost of 10% of its HP per attack. In Little Cup, this is typically paired with Pokemon that simply have excellent attacking stats or coverage. A good example is Abra, which can 2HKO most of the tier with 1.3x boosted Psychic, Shadow Ball, or Energy Ball while taking no recoil due to its ability, Magic Guard. Due to the fact that most calculations in Pokemon round down, any Pokemon with an HP stat of 19 will take 1.9 damage from Life Orb recoil, which rounds down to only 1 damage, allowing a 19 HP Life Orb user to survive 19 rounds of Life Orb recoil instead of 10. Elekid and Houndour are two Pokemon that appreciate the power boost from Life Orb but also minimize the effects of recoil.

What You Should Not Use
Assault Vest
Assault Vest gives the holder a 1.5x boost to its Special Defense stat, but the holder can only use attacking moves. This is inferior to Eviolite, which provides a 1.5x boost to both the holder's Defense and Special Defense stats with no downsides.

Leftovers
Leftovers restores 1/16 of the holder's HP at the end of each turn. This is almost never enough HP to be useful in LC, as the holder would require a whopping 32 HP to restore just 2 HP per turn. Instead, Berry Juice should be used if one wants some form of recovery, and Eviolite should be used to provide greater longevity in general.

Oran Berry
Oran Berry restores 10 HP to the holder when its HP drops below 50%, which is objectively inferior to Berry Juice. Berry Juice also is unaffected by Incinerate, Pluck, and Bug Bite, giving it further advantages. You should only use Oran Berry if you have a Pokemon with the ability Harvest, which is only notably used by Phantump.

Sitrus Berry
Sitrus Berry restores 25% HP to the holder when its HP drops below 50%, which is objectively inferior to both Oran Berry and Berry Juice for all LC Pokemon (no LC Pokemon can reach an HP stat of 40, meaning Sitrus Berry can never restore 10 HP or more).

Situational
Choice Band / Choice Specs
Choice Band and Choice Specs have the same adverse effect as Choice Scarf, but Choice Band gives a 1.5x boost to the holder's Attack and Choice Specs gives a 1.5x boost to the holder's Special Attack. Most of the time, LC Pokemons' stats are so low that the ability to switch moves is preferred over the difference between Life Orb (1.3x) and Choice Band or Choice Specs. The only exceptions occur when Pokemon are prone to priority and therefore do not want to whittle down their HP, and when they are likely to only use a single attack anyways. Choice Band Bunnelby is a good example.

Damp Rock
LC has plenty of rain sweepers, but no Pokemon with Drizzle. Damp Rock can be used on any of the tier's bulkier Pokemon with Rain Dance, such as Bronzor or Mienfoo, to allow these Pokemon to shine when the sun does not.

Deep Sea Tooth
Deep Sea Tooth doubles Clamperl's Special Attack, putting it at around 36 before any boosts. This allows Clamperl to fire off exceedingly strong Surfs and Ice Beams. Deep Sea Tooth can also be used alongside Shell Smash to simply devastate teams without strong priority attacks or Water-type immunities.

Focus Sash
Focus Sash allows the holder to survive any attack when at full HP. It is commonly used by Abra, which can ensure that it will live any attack except those that hit more than once through its ability Magic Guard, which negates all effects that indirectly damage the user, such as burn, Stealth Rock and Spikes.

Heat Rock
Heat Rock extends the number of turns with intense sunlight from five to eight. It is commonly used by Vulpix, which uses Drought to instantly change the weather to sunlight.

Normal Gem
Normal Gem boosts the power of the first Normal-type move used by the holder. It is the only gem that is currently available in XY. It is commonly used by Meowth, which can use it up with Fake Out and then steal an opponent's item with Covet or Thief.

Move / Ability Legality at Level 5
Little Cup is played at level 5, which makes for some interesting situations regarding move legality. This section will briefly cover the main sources for why something that might be legal at level 100 is not legal at level 5. Also, know that it is impossible for simulators to detect all of these sources for legality that is different at level 5 than level 100.

One nice thing to note is that XY has fortunately changed the way egg moves work, so now either parent may pass on egg moves to their offspring. This has removed virtually all previously impossible egg move combinations, including Budew with Spikes and Sleep Powder, Shelmet with Spikes and Encore, and Tentacool with Rapid Spin and Mirror Coat.

New Abilities / Moves and Old TMs / Move Tutors

This is probably the largest source of move illegality for Little Cup Pokemon and Pokemon in general. At its simplest level, this means that new moves or abilities are incompatible with old moves that can't be bred onto a child.

  • Lickitung gets Wish and Heal Bell in ADV from a special event and the ability Cloud Nine from the Dream World in BW. There is no way to have these older moves on a Lickitung with the newer Cloud Nine ability.
  • Stunky gets Sucker Punch in DPP from move tutors and Play Rough as an egg move in XY. There is no way to have a level 5 Stunky with Sucker Punch and Play Rough bred onto it.
  • Staryu can obtain Hydro Pump and Rapid Spin in ADV via the Pomeg glitch and the ability Analytic from the Dream World in BW. There is no way to have these older moves on Staryu with the newer Analytic ability.
ADV: The Pomeg Glitch
In ADV, the Pomeg Berry, which removed 10 HP EVs upon use, could be used to faint one's party Pokemon in the overworld and then enter battle with only an Egg. In battle, this Egg could gain experience points and learn level-up moves, but when it was hatched, it would still be at level 5. Most Pokemon do not have any problem with level-up moves bred onto them, as the only prerequisite is that both parents know the move. The exceptions are genderless and male-only Pokemon, which must breed with Ditto. As Ditto cannot learn any of said Pokemon's level-up moves, this would cause their level-up moves to be illegal; however, the Pomeg Glitch could be used to remedy this situation. Some notable benefits of the Pomeg Glitch include Tri Attack and Recover on Porygon, and Rapid Spin, Recover, and Hydro Pump on Staryu.

Genderless / Single Gender Pokemon and Level-Up Moves After ADV
After ADV, the Pomeg Glitch was removed from the game, and genderless and single-gender Pokemon could no longer learn moves while in Egg form. As female-only Pokemon can breed with male fathers, they have the least problems; virtually all competitive egg moves are available to the female-only Pokemon of DPP, BW, and XY. Male-only Pokemon have many more problems, as they can only breed with Ditto; the only casualty of this post-ADV change is Rufflet, who unfortunately misses out on Brave Bird in LC. Genderless Pokemon have an equal number of problems, with Bronzor missing out mostly on irrelevant level-up moves, Klink losing Shift Gear and Gear Grind, and Golett tragically losing access to Shadow Punch and Focus Punch.

Ability Capsule
Many people theorized that the introduction of Ability Capsule, an item that allows you to change your Pokemon's ability, would solve many of Little Cup's legality issues with hidden abilities. Unfortunately, Ability Capsule only allows a Pokemon to switch between its two main abilities and not among all three. For this reason, it does not solve any legality problems regarding past generation move tutors and hidden ability introduction, although many of these were solved by BW2 move tutors or can be expected to be resolved with future move tutors. It is notable that via Ability Capsule, Pokemon that did not originally have two abilities but had an ability added in DPP have access to old moves; for example, Ability Capsule can be used on a Pomeg Glitch Tri Attack Porygon (which would have Trace from ADV) to get a Porygon with Tri Attack and Download.


 

Coconut

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LC Leader
XY Little Cup Viability Rankings (Pokemon are listed alphabetically)

S-Rank is Reserved for the very best Pokemon in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

S

Diglett
Mienfoo
Pawniard
Porygon

A-rank is reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

A+

Fletchling
Foongus
Magnemite
Shellder
Timburr
Vullaby

A

Abra
Carvanha
Chinchou
Cottonee
Gastly
Gothita
Ponyta
Snivy

A-
Archen
Corphish
Croagunk
Drilbur
Ferroseed
Omanyte
Snubbull
Spritzee
Staryu
Tirtouga

B-rank is reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. Their niches are often slightly smaller than those that are in A and S rank, which leads them to face some competition for a teamslot.

B+

Aipom
Dwebble
Hippopotas
Larvesta
Munchlax
Onix
Scraggy
Skrelp
Vulpix

B

Bellsprout
Bunnelby
Cranidos
Doduo
Elekid
Houndour
Pancham
Pumpkaboo-Super
Riolu
Surskit
Taillow
Torchic

B-

Amaura
Clamperl
Deerling
Honedge
Magby
Shellos
Slowpoke
Stunky
Tentacool
Zigzagoon

C-rank is reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.

C+

Aron
Anorith
Axew
Buneary
Chespin
Darumaka
Frillish
Kabuto
Lickitung
Lileep
Numel
Rufflet
Sandile
Sandshrew
Snover
Trapinch
Trubbish
Tyrunt
Wynaut

C

Bulbasaur
Dratini
Exeggcute
Geodude
Inkay
Koffing
Meowth
Natu
Pumpkaboo-Small
Purrloin
Spinarak
Teddiursa
Venipede

C-

Budew
Cubone
Goldeen
Karrablast
Larvitar
Machop
Mankey
Mantyke
Nosepass
Remoraid
Shelmet
Togepi
Wingull
Wooper
Zorua

D-Rank is reserved for Pokemon that are generally bad in the LC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their occasional use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Their niche is often so tiny, that they are not worth using the majority of the time.

Binacle
Bronzor
Cacnea
Ekans
Finneon
Froakie
Gible
Glameow
Grimer
Golett
Growlithe
Helioptile
Litleo
Mime Jr.
Munna
Oddish
Pineco
Piplup
Poliwag
Shroomish
Skiddo
Smoochum
Solosis
Totodile
Treecko
Voltorb
Wailmer

Smog Frog Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are atrocious in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have no place on any serious team.
:pirate: Everything else
 

Corporal Levi

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For the sake of consistency with SM policy, as well as to bring the banlist in line with the general consensus among the vast majority of active ORAS LC players, the ORAS LC council has decided to ban Baton Pass.
corporal levi: ban
tazz: ban
mad0ka: ban
fatty: ban
star: ban
GOAO: ban
fiend: ban
heysup: no ban
pinktidal: no ban

This ban hasn't been implemented yet so feel free to disagree, but I don't expect it to be super debatable

In addition, we are discussing Gothita. Feel free to join in on the discussion, in this thread or in #oldgens in the LC discord, if you have anything to add!

e: edited reasoning. sorry if it was initially unclear
 
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For the sake of consistency with SM policy, the ORAS LC council has decided to ban Baton Pass.
corporal levi: ban
tazz: ban
mad0ka: ban
fatty: ban
star: ban
GOAO: ban
fiend: ban
heysup:


In addition, we are discussing Gothita. Feel free to join in on the discussion, in this thread or in #oldgens in the LC discord, if you have anything to add!
For the record I was do not ban (I guess you guys forgot about fletching and cottonees oras mechanics) and I do not think we should be secretly banning things on our whim especially if those things were suspected and voted on by previous councils who played the metagame at the time. My vote for gothita will also be no ban.
 

Merritt

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For the sake of consistency with SM policy, the ORAS LC council has decided to ban Baton Pass.
corporal levi: ban
tazz: ban
mad0ka: ban
fatty: ban
star: ban
GOAO: ban
fiend: ban
heysup:


In addition, we are discussing Gothita. Feel free to join in on the discussion, in this thread or in #oldgens in the LC discord, if you have anything to add!
Yo what the fuck.

A strategy used exactly once in the recent LCWC (as the most recent example of ORAS LC in tournaments) does not suggest that Baton Pass has suddenly morphed into an oppressive strategy.

ORAS LC is not SM LC, no matter how similar the models are. Carrying over bans just because one generation banned them is absurd. Will Porygon be banned from ORAS LC as well since it was banned from SM? Will this Baton Pass ban carry over to BW? DPP? Will the hypnosis ban for DPP be carried forward?

Of particular note is the insane idea that this is in order to be consistent with SM LC policy. Let's see why Baton Pass was banned in SM.

Baton Pass Ban announcement said:
We went with a council vote instead of a suspect test because this was strictly a policy concern; Baton Pass causing some threats to be broken (namely Torchic) had already been established in prior suspects.
This is absolutely not the case for ORAS LC. While some of the banned Pokemon from ORAS LC occasionally used Baton Pass, virtually none of their classically broken sets used the move.

It's worth noting that Baton Pass was suspected in ORAS LC and not touched and the only metagame change since the suspect then was the later ban of Drifloon. Which has minimal impact on BP as a strategy.

SM LC has many additional tools and changes compared ORAS LC that contribute to Baton Pass being broken in SM, including but not limited to: Z moves, new powerful receivers such as Mudbray, Dark-types being immune to Prankster encore, lack of viable Fletchling, no Sun (meaning it's easier to outspeed opposing teams at +2), weakened Sucker Punch, no immensely bulky Porygon floating around, and more. It is a different metagame and generation, it does not make sense to carry over bans from SM to ORAS.

I question immensely the credibility and good faith of the ORAS oldgen council as a whole if they believe that a decision like this which has had no public indication that it was even being discussed is sufficiently explained by saying that it is for the "sake of consistency with SM policy".


E: To address the 'updated reasoning', "the general consensus among the vast majority of active ORAS LC players" is so vague as to be completely useless. Yes, I got that the council seemed to generally agree that BP should be banned from the voting record. The question that needed to be answered was: what makes BP banworthy in the eyes of the vast majority of active ORAS LC players? Why has this literally never come up since the start of Gen 7 on any part of the forums? There's been no explanation from the pro-ban side here as to why Baton Pass needs to be banned from ORAS, and seeing as the onus is on the people changing the status quo (ESPECIALLY IN AN OLDGEN) then I still find it absolutely appalling that the proban people have provided no reasoning besides 'yeah it's what the active oras lc players believe'.
 
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Corporal Levi

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Baton Pass is banned in gen 6 LC. The Immortal

To clarify, Baton Pass is/was banned for the first two weeks of LCPL as well.


Gothita will not be banned:

Corporal Levi - dnb - gothita is decidedly not broken; it lacks traditional counterplay by virtue of being a trapper that can actually switch into its targets (unlike Diglett), but this is more than made up for by its drawbacks (terrible immediate damage, limited pool of trappable mons against offense, vulnerable to Pursuit, trivial to set up on after a KO) s.t. its A- viability ranking is usually seen as fair. There is more of an argument centered around whether it's too centralizing/unhealthy, but I don't believe this to be the case either; I don't feel as if Gothita and Gothita-based cores require more prep to deal with than other high/top tier threats and cores. Defensive teams that are more likely to carry Gothita-vulnerable mons also generally have more room to carry multiple hard checks to key threats.

fatty - ban - you'll be hard pressed to find a match up where goth can't do anything unless you're playing ho, and this puts many teams that rely on defensive backbones like foongus or defensive pory at a massive disadvantage. the aforementioned momentum suck doesn't matter when you're guaranteeing eliminating a threat, and the pp stall set not only lets the user put numerous common pokemon out of commission, but easily set up powerful threats fairly effortlessly. im already not a huge fan of trappers, and goth is easily strong enough to warrant a ban. if this was current gen im fairly confident it would be banned and i don't see it being an old gen as a reason for it to stay.

Fiend - abstain

GOAO - ban - gothita is not broken but feels pretty unhealth atm, the cm set can trap more than one thing on some matchups and p much inviabilizes balance.

Heysup - dnb - Gothita is weak and easy to set up on.

mad0ka - ban - you'll be hard pressed to find a match up where goth can't do anything unless you're playing ho, and this puts many teams that rely on defensive backbones like foongus or defensive pory at a massive disadvantage. the aforementioned momentum suck doesn't matter when you're guaranteeing eliminating a threat, and the pp stall set not only lets the user put numerous common pokemon out of commission, but easily set up powerful threats fairly effortlessly. im already not a huge fan of trappers, and goth is easily strong enough to warrant a ban. if this was current gen im fairly confident it would be banned and i don't see it being an old gen as a reason for it to stay.

pinktidal - dnb - Goth is not a "healthy" force in the ORAS LC metagame but it is by no means a broken force because of that. It is a hazard to how people build and play around it but the checks/coverage moves used to stop it typically have a niche outside of just doing that. All in all, goth is an annoyance in ORAS LC but it is nowhere near the threshold that requires it to be banned.

@starmaster - dnb - I don't old gens should be touched as minimally as possible outside of things for consistency. Gothita doesn't seem broken to me considering yes its good at trapping particular things but its also a big momentum sap and provides very little defensive utility because scarf cant switch into anything and CM is basically dead after it gets its one and doesn't switch into anything other than the one mon its going to trap. So combined with the fact that touching old gens sucks idt goth is anywhere near the threshold to ban.

tazz - dnb - I believe that interfering with old gens beyond small consistency things like BP should be avoided in all but the most extreme of circumstances, and gothita simply does not come close to this description. It is pretty clearly not broken, and while an unhealthy argument is possible I feel this is debatable and violates my preference against retroactive bans

ban: 3
do not ban: 6
abstain: 1


wrt how the baton pass suspect was carried out, pushing it out without discussion was 100% a dumb mistake on my part. At the time, I'd assumed from whatever discussions on it had cropped up that the ban would be universally agreed upon (all 6 votes were pro-ban when I first made the above post). This assumption a) ultimately wasn't even true in hindsight and b) still wouldn't justify such a hasty suspect when we still had over a month before LCPL to do everything properly. I don't think completely nullifying the vote is a viable option when the majority of the most involved ORAS LCers at the time were pro-ban, so I'm hoping to cast a revote after LCPL with an extended council drawn from LCPL activity and a more formal/timely notice that the discussion + vote is to take place. I'm not sure if there's a better way to correct this mistake (part of why I've been delaying this for so long), so please let me know if you have any suggestions (outside of just reversing the vote halfway through LCPL). Sorry for the hassle and I'll definitely be sure not to do something similar again.
 

Merritt

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Ladies and gentlemen of the ORAS LC council who voted to ban Baton Pass, I'd like to ask you a question. What part of Baton Pass is broken to you? We still haven't gotten most of your reasons for a full blown Baton Pass ban. What I know from tazz who's been pleasantly forthcoming in the LC Discord is a belief that fullpass is an uncompetitive strategy. We still lack any reasoning from the rest of ya'll beyond the incredibly infuriating for reasons I talked about above idea that this is for "consistency" with a different generation. 'The majority of ORAS players believe it should be banned' is not a reason. The reason would be why they voted to ban Baton Pass - what about BP is making the metagame uncompetitive to a degree that it's worth touching an oldgen to ban it - not a goddamn summary of the votes. Yeah, if the majority of ORAS players on the council didn't think it should be banned then it wouldn't have been banned.

So yes, I'd like to see a reason why Baton Pass should be banned from ORAS LC from the council.

And if the reason for almost everybody pro-ban is that primarily the fullpass strategy is uncompetitive, then there's a very simple way to kill fullpass that fits in line with Smogon's general philosophy of preferably banning Pokemon in the form of a Torchic ban.
 
booooooooooo
edit so this doesn't get deleted: i'm probably the foremost expert re: baton pass in lc and it is super not broken in oras. i think this vote was cast through the eyes of sm lc where it's (apparently) less manageable. id strongly consider rethinking both this and goth (actually broken!)
 
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Gummy

...three, smiles go for miles!
Agree with Merritt and abs here. Isn't a large part of smogon's tiering philosophy reducing the collateral as much as possible, and banning mons over moves? Are we saying the sd foo pass to carv sample is a broken strategy? Or drypass Deerling (yes thats a set it's a slash on the analysis)? Moreover, why did we get reasoning on why they didn't want to ban goth but 0 reasoning for wanting to ban bp other than "we wanted to do it"? I don't really have a suggestion other than re"testing" it after LCPL I guess but I really hope we get explanations from the council for why the ban, because right now its essentially being quickbanned in a 3 yr old meta. :pirate:
 

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