Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[Celticpride]

So OU really doesn't care about monthly drops / rises at all, because everything can be used outside of the obvious banning to Ubers. However, I did find it interesting that Gallade dropped back to UU (Mega Gallade was already in BL, but same difference not in OU anymore). Thought this was interesting from all the hype it got, with some even pushing for Gallade to go to S rank near the beginning. Gallade's usage has also been cut in half since November / December. Very interesting because it did look like the complete package, but ended up being rather easy to play around and check. Also a great example of something with limited pool hard counters (just Sableye and Unaware Clef iirc) but a large pool of checks and RKers. This isn't even some usage =/= viability thing either because Gallade has fallen off quite a bit in the VR thread as well. Can't even recall if a Mega went through a similar drop off in the early XY stages, maybe Mega TTar?

The other interesting trend is the extreme rise in Manaphy and Torn-T. Manaphy has nearly doubled in usage since February, and Torn-T has almost doubled in usage since March (3.5 -> 6.89, 4.66 -> 7.92 respectively). Manaphy is pretty self explanatory, it is puts a tremendous amount of pressure on defensive teams and balanced cores because of how ridiculous a boosting move like Tail Glow is. Torn-T is more interesting. Is that a sign that Landorus is a problem? I think part of the usage spike might be Torn-T's great speed tier post-Gren ban. Another part is just how many tools it has to pressure common checks. Hurricane, Superpower, Heat Wave, Focus Blast, and Knock Off are already a lot of options, and that's before you throw in utility options like Taunt and U-Turn. Really splashable and easy to fit into teams right now.

 

[AM]

So OU really doesn't care about monthly drops / rises at all, because everything can be used outside of the obvious banning to Ubers. However, I did find it interesting that Gallade dropped back to UU (Mega Gallade was already in BL, but same difference not in OU anymore). Thought this was interesting from all the hype it got, with some even pushing for Gallade to go to S rank near the beginning. Gallade's usage has also been cut in half since November / December. Very interesting because it did look like the complete package, but ended up being rather easy to play around and check. Also a great example of something with limited pool hard counters (just Sableye and Unaware Clef iirc) but a large pool of checks and RKers. This isn't even some usage =/= viability thing either because Gallade has fallen off quite a bit in the VR thread as well. Can't even recall if a Mega went through a similar drop off in the early XY stages, maybe Mega TTar?

The other interesting trend is the extreme rise in Manaphy and Torn-T. Manaphy has nearly doubled in usage since February, and Torn-T has almost doubled in usage since March (3.5 -> 6.89, 4.66 -> 7.92 respectively). Manaphy is pretty self explanatory, it is puts a tremendous amount of pressure on defensive teams and balanced cores because of how ridiculous a boosting move like Tail Glow is. Torn-T is more interesting. Is that a sign that Landorus is a problem? I think part of the usage spike might be Torn-T's great speed tier post-Gren ban. Another part is just how many tools it has to pressure common checks. Hurricane, Superpower, Heat Wave, Focus Blast, and Knock Off are already a lot of options, and that's before you throw in utility options like Taunt and U-Turn. Really splashable and easy to fit into teams right now.

Think I mentioned this back at the last tier update when Sketchup made this big list of stats but Manaphy usage should've been higher as it is now way back. People started to catch on that it's just this huge threat in the meta and just having one as a fat water on your team puts a lot of role compression in providing counterplay to slower playstyles, or at least able to pressure them.

Eh Torn-T usage might have to do with Landorus a little bit considering AV is really solid and literally can fit on any type of team, I use one on a heavier stall team just to give you an idea that I really enjoy. Then again that's more than likely a smaller picture other than the fact Regenerator and having something that has longevity with it on offensive playstyles is really just a god send. Getting a one up on everything base 120 and below is pretty awesome as well.

 

[SketchUp]

Landorus is a factor in Tornadus-T's usage but let's not forget that Tornadus-T is extremely splashable because you can basically run whatever coverage your team needs and you still have that great Landorus check/counter. Besides Landorus it also checks tons of other stuff that are big problems when building teams (Volcarona, Serperior, Keldeo) which makes him incredibly easy to just put on your balanced team. If your team is weak to SpD SD Gliscor, Tornadus-T can easily adapt on pick Icy Wind, if Chansey is a problem you can pick Superpower or Taunt and Heat Wave hits many pokemon that can switch in like Jirachi and SpD Skarmory.

 

[NinetyNineNo]

It's a shame that Gallade fell so far from grace, but I used it a lot and it really wasn't as good as I expected. It hits like a truck and has that nice 110 speed tier, but in order to really lay in the damage in needs a SD boost and it's very easy to RK, so in practice finding the opportunity to set up was a lot harder than it seemed. Often I'd bring it in through a double switch, SD and kill something, only to be forced back out. I think the backlash towards it has been a bit too harsh, but it did get hyped like no one's business. The all-but-wasted ability slot, poor priority (Shadow Sneak is ass) and no ways to get past bulky Fairies make it a tough choice for a Mega. I retain hope that it might get some new toys in the future, but ORAS isn't very kind to it at the moment.

(Oh, and where can one see the monthly updates?)

 

[Vert]

Oh, and where can one see the monthly updates?

may usage stats

 

[MANNAT]

How would defensive hitmontop work as a rapid spinner/pivot in OU? It has a decent base 95 defense coupled with intimidate along with an excellent 110 special defense stat, tons of priority moves to punish common mons, powerful fighting STAB that can kill a ton of top tier threats such as; Tyranitar, Chansey, Bisharp, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, and Heatran, a solid base 70 speed for a defensive mon, technician as a nice ability to boost the power of its priority moves, plenty of coverage options, a defensive typing with quite a few resistances in OU, and a legitimate setup move in bulk up. It may not be the best mon ever, but it probably could work as a nice defensive pivot.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

How would defensive hitmontop work as a rapid spinner/pivot in OU? It has a decent base 95 defense coupled with intimidate along with an excellent 110 special defense stat, tons of priority moves to punish common mons, powerful fighting STAB that can kill a ton of top tier threats such as; Tyranitar, Chansey, Bisharp, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, and Heatran, a solid base 70 speed for a defensive mon, technician as a nice ability to boost the power of its priority moves, plenty of coverage options, a defensive typing with quite a few resistances in OU, and a legitimate setup move in bulk up. It may not be the best mon ever, but it probably could work as a nice defensive pivot.

If you needed a spinner and your team was incredibly weak to those mons, then it might merit use, but its low base HP means that you'll probably be forced to use defensive sets with Intimidate since even with Technician Mach Punch isn't going to be hitting as hard as you'd like with only 95 base attack. A lack of recovery means that a Bulk Up set would have to rely on RestTalk for recovery. I could really only see a defensive spinning set being useful, and that would only be if your team needed a spinner and had no way of dealing with the threats you mentioned. If it is then I could see it potentially having a niche (sort of like Mantine), but I think there are mons who can pull off offensive sets much better than Hitmontop.

Of course, I've never used, so you're welcome to prove me wrong.

 

[MANNAT]

If you needed a spinner and your team was incredibly weak to those mons, then it might merit use, but its low base HP means that you'll probably be forced to use defensive sets with Intimidate since even with Technician Mach Punch isn't going to be hitting as hard as you'd like with only 95 base attack. A lack of recovery means that a Bulk Up set would have to rely on RestTalk for recovery. I could really only see a defensive spinning set being useful, and that would only be if your team needed a spinner and had no way of dealing with the threats you mentioned. If it is then I could see it potentially having a niche (sort of like Mantine), but I think there are mons who can pull off offensive sets much better than Hitmontop.

Of course, I've never used, so you're welcome to prove me wrong.

I was saying that the main set was a defensive one using its fighting STAB to kill the aforementioned threats but mainly was a defensive tank that picked off weakened things with mach punch.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

I was saying that the main set was a defensive one using its fighting STAB to kill the aforementioned threats but mainly was a defensive tank that picked off weakened things with mach punch.

0 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 42-51 (12.3 - 14.9%) -- possible 7HKO
0 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 45-54 (13.9 - 16.7%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 104 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 39-46 (12 - 14.2%) -- possible 8HKO
0 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 39-46 (16.1 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO

In terms of revenge killing threats, unless you're hitting something weak to Mach Punch, at a glance it looks as though a decent number of threats would have to have had the ever-living crap beat out of them to be within revenge killing range as opposed to other revenge killers. You could invest in its attack instead of its defense, but without the defensive investment I'd imagine that it would have issues with being worn down too quickly. I'm not saying you can't try it. These are just potential issues that I see.

 

[EternalSnowman]

Hitmontop can easily wreck havoc of sand teams, due to their reliance on Stealth Rocks/Excadrill/Tyranitar. All 3 of these are easily beaten by the top, so it can easily prove to check these threats if you need a last resort check. However you should be using Close Combat with Intimidate, other sets don't really work.

 

[Celticpride]

Hitmontop can easily wreck havoc of sand teams, due to their reliance on Stealth Rocks/Excadrill/Tyranitar. All 3 of these are easily beaten by the top, so it can easily prove to check these threats if you need a last resort check. However you should be using Close Combat with Intimidate, other sets don't really work.

Not sure about that because outside of TTar and Drill Sand teams tend to load up on Fighting resists, as well as Grass, Water resists etc. Most Sand teams will has something in the vain of Lati@s, Mega Altaria, Slowbro, Chesnaught that could take on Hitmontop fairly easily.

 

[jordanthejq12]

I can see Clefable and vanilla Alakazam working pretty well too--Magic Guard helps these guys not get worn down by sand, and of course you don't want to risk taking a Moonblast or Psyshock to the face (especially Zam having 120 speed).

 

[Mur]

Well this thread looks like it has been a little slow lately so I'l start a new topic to get it rolling:]

This beast has been underrated for too long and is finally starting to gain some usage and some appreciation. The standard CM+2attks set easily cleans up more defensive builds since reuni has the coveted ability of the cmers magic guard, making it immune to status and hazards. The standard spread looks something like 252hp/200+def/56spdef I'm not too sure what this is for but I'm sure someone can figure it out or formulate something more efficient. I also like how reuni can beat a majority of the other cm win cons bar unaware clef and stored power clef(or roar cune???), using psyshock to break through their exploitable defense stat.
With a base spatk stat of 125 reuni is not exactly weak like some of the other cm mons and as a result requires less boosts to sweep. Speaking of stats reuni is a very fat mon with respectable defensive stats and typing which allows for easy set up or just being a good pivot to sponge an attack from a threat. Being weak to dark and being walled by Msab are flaws but focus blast and shadow ball handle each of them respectively. Clefable has recently risen to S and one of the main reasons was because of how well it takes advantage of this hazard based meta so I see no reason for reuni to not be increasing in viability in the same way.

Well that's my little scatterbrained summery on why I think reuni has gotten a lot better and is becoming a threat. So here's some questions!
Are there any other possible sets reuni can run?
I've seen some ppl argue that clef is not the best cmer anymore due to it's "weaker" defensive stats and the prominence of high powered threats in the meta. Does reuniclus's bulk and higher power let it become one of the better cm win cons in the tier?
Why do you think psychics seemed to have gained a lot of viability in oras despite the addition of Msab?

 

[SketchUp]

Clefable is still #1 CM user imo because it has a better typing + ways to cripple switchins with stuff like TWave. Reuniclus is awesome against Hippow Torn-T teams but it struggles against Mega Scizor, Manaphy and Taunt Bulk Up Talonflame who are not the easiest pokemon to take out the match (especially on these balanced builds they often stay till late game)
Biggest issue I have with Reuniclus is that it struggles with teams that are not balanced builds. Stall has Mega Sableye, Mega Scizor, Unaware Clefable and Gliscor to beat Reuniclus while HO has pokemon like Banded Scizor, Mega Gyarados, Tyranitar, Bisharp and Azumarill who doesn't have too many issues with Reuniclus. Still a great pokemon when used well.

 

[MrAldo]

The funny part is that reuniclus can be over plenty of its checks with and offensive trick room variant and if you believe in focus blast well enough when they switch, outspeeding them and bopping them with focus blast. It is an interesting variant that no one expects, scizor and bisharp are still an issue but pretty fun set nonetheless.

I would say specs future sight could potentially work but dark types are abundant and just demand to be a bit careful around it but team lacking dark types wont enjoy taking that, especially with hazards.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Clefable is still #1 CM user imo because it has a better typing + ways to cripple switchins with stuff like TWave. Reuniclus is awesome against Hippow Torn-T teams but it struggles against Mega Scizor, Manaphy and Taunt Bulk Up Talonflame who are not the easiest pokemon to take out the match (especially on these balanced builds they often stay till late game)
Biggest issue I have with Reuniclus is that it struggles with teams that are not balanced builds. Stall has Mega Sableye, Mega Scizor, Unaware Clefable and Gliscor to beat Reuniclus while HO has pokemon like Banded Scizor, Mega Gyarados, Tyranitar, Bisharp and Azumarill who doesn't have too many issues with Reuniclus. Still a great pokemon when used well.

This brings up interesting debate:
Which is best CM User:
CM Mega Latias (Easily best special bulk) Hates dark types
Clefable Not a mega, good typing, doesn't fear status, worst stats.
Mega Slowbro, Can't be crit, good special attack, best physical bulk, several weaknesses.
Mega Sabeleye: Beats all phazing, can burn, cons is quite weak.

 

[Flygonial]

This brings up interesting debate:
Which is best CM User:
CM Mega Latias (Easily best special bulk) Hates dark types
Clefable Not a mega, good typing, doesn't fear status, worst stats.
Mega Slowbro, Can't be crit, good special attack, best physical bulk, several weaknesses.
Mega Sabeleye: Beats all phazing, can burn, cons is quite weak.

You forgot that Mega Sableye can be phazed by Dragon Tail.

 

[GeeMick]

It's not really about who's the best minder; there are just some that will suit build x with moveset y better than others. However reuniclus does do pretty good in the current metagame indeed.

 

[bludz]

I've run a Specs Regenerator Reuniclus and it's okay. Specs Future Sight OHKOs so many things. I think the best thing you can do is fire one off and then make sure you have something in a couple turns later that wont allow a Dark type to eat the attack up. Getting pursuit trapped isn't a massive deal thanks to Regenerator + bulk, Reuniclus can usually take one from full HP and it has Focus Blast if you want to predict the switch-in.

CM is definitely just an amazing set though. I would say Reuniclus is actually nearly as threatening as Clefable just because it eats up neutral hits a lot better even if it has more weaknesses to exploit.

 

[Flygonial]

Oh Reuniclus, there was a time where it was suspected. Then, it seemed to fall and fall in usage when XY came around, bordering on irrelevancy. Only recently has it saw the light of decent usage in OU again. It's mainly its Calm Mind set seeing use, and while it's not as physically bulky as some of the others, it definitely has more than enough to work. Reliable recovery and Magic Guard means that it doesn't have to rely on RestTalk and also gives it an extra slot for coverage. Other sets do seem like they can work quite well though, as Regenerator is a fantastic ability for any pivot and you could try bringing back the old Life Orb Magic Guard Trick Room set of old. On the other hand, I don't actually feel like there are that much dark-types in the tier - just the ones around happen to be common. Neither sit well for Reuniclus - especially Shadow Ball variants. It either chooses to hate facing Dark-types or get hard-walled by Mega Sableye. Regardless, it's still a pokemon with a sizable niche and definitely shouldn't be left unprepared for.

 

[YUNG GOAT]

I think Clef is easily the best calm minder in ou right now as the magic guard set can obliterate stall teams once it has a few boosts to kill phazers and the unaware variant can be a solid sweeper, a wall and a cleric. Even with only fairy coverage on on the unaware set the ability to set up without worrying about statuses or boosters setting up alongside you gives it the ability to destroy teams when all the the threats are gone. On the other hand while i did use calm mind Reuniclus a bit in B/W 2 its typing and little use outside of a sweeper give clef the edge due to the abundance of physical set up sweepers and the relative absence of stall teams. I agree that Reuni is good in this current meta but clef performs the job of calm mind sweeper a bit better.

 

[Analytic]

I think Clef is easily the best calm minder in ou right now as the magic guard set can obliterate stall teams once it has a few boosts to kill phazers and the unaware variant can be a solid sweeper, a wall and a cleric. Even with only fairy coverage on on the unaware set the ability to set up without worrying about statuses or boosters setting up alongside you gives it the ability to destroy teams when all the the threats are gone. On the other hand while i did use calm mind Reuniclus a bit in B/W 2 its typing and little use outside of a sweeper give clef the edge due to the abundance of physical set up sweepers and the relative absence of stall teams. I agree that Reuni is good in this current meta but clef performs the job of calm mind sweeper a bit better.

You've got your words wrong. Why mention it's a better cleric if we're discussing the CM Set? You said that Clefable performs the job of a CM'er better because of the abundance of physical mons in the meta, however, Reuniclus is bulkier than Clefable having a better HP as well as a better Defense stat. You also said you used Reuniclus in BW2 but the meta has changed quite a bit since then and thus, comparing Clefable in ORAS and Reuni in BW2 is unfair. Reuniclus gets Magic Guard too so you can't point out that Clefable doesn't have to worry about status, hazards, residual damage as something to back up your opinion as both if them get the same ability so yeah, you also said the Unaware set doesn't have to worry about status and set up sweepers, keep in mind Unaware only ignores stat changes of other mons and nothing more

 

[Teeny Victory]

I've run a Specs Regenerator Reuniclus and it's okay. Specs Future Sight OHKOs so many things. I think the best thing you can do is fire one off and then make sure you have something in a couple turns later that wont allow a Dark type to eat the attack up. Getting pursuit trapped isn't a massive deal thanks to Regenerator + bulk, Reuniclus can usually take one from full HP and it has Focus Blast if you want to predict the switch-in.

CM is definitely just an amazing set though. I would say Reuniclus is actually nearly as threatening as Clefable just because it eats up neutral hits a lot better even if it has more weaknesses to exploit.

Although specs reun sounds really cool, it has apparently been proven that item boosts do not apply on future sight and doom desire unless the user of the move is on the field at the time it hits. I don't think this has been implemented on showdown but just wanted to make that known.

But yeah specs reun is really cool sounding. One thing I see working well is pairing it up with mega lopunny, as it beats every common dark type (mandibuzz is ded), and beats most steel types, which are the main things that want to be coming in on future sight. It also gets a free switch in on bisharp and tyranitar, who are the two main pursuit trappers in ou, preventing them from mindlessly pursuit trapping reun with the though of mega lopunny coming in for free.

Future sight also allows lopunny to muscle through some of it's best checks such as mega venusaur, slowbro, lando-t, Hippowdon, Clefable etc that can stomach any two hits from lopunny, but get blown back by future sight, possibly allowing lopunny to break through and sweep.

 

[Flygonial]

Although specs reun sounds really cool, it has apparently been proven that item boosts do not apply on future sight and doom desire unless the user of the move is on the field at the time it hits. I don't think this has been implemented on showdown but just wanted to make that known.

But yeah specs reun is really cool sounding. One thing I see working well is pairing it up with mega lopunny, as it beats every common dark type (mandibuzz is ded), and beats most steel types, which are the main things that want to be coming in on future sight. It also gets a free switch in on bisharp and tyranitar, who are the two main pursuit trappers in ou, preventing them from mindlessly pursuit trapping reun with the though of mega lopunny coming in for free.

Future sight also allows lopunny to muscle through some of it's best checks such as mega venusaur, slowbro, lando-t, Hippowdon, Clefable etc that can stomach any two hits from lopunny, but get blown back by future sight, possibly allowing lopunny to break through and sweep.

I've got an RMT planned built around that core, and I can confirm that it's pretty swell. It hasn't been implemented on Showdown yes, as the things I've hit still take a massive chunk that could have only be done with Specs ('Zard X knocked out Reuniclus, got OHKO'd, Clefable finished off, etc).

 

[bludz]

Although specs reun sounds really cool, it has apparently been proven that item boosts do not apply on future sight and doom desire unless the user of the move is on the field at the time it hits. I don't think this has been implemented on showdown but just wanted to make that known.

But yeah specs reun is really cool sounding. One thing I see working well is pairing it up with mega lopunny, as it beats every common dark type (mandibuzz is ded), and beats most steel types, which are the main things that want to be coming in on future sight. It also gets a free switch in on bisharp and tyranitar, who are the two main pursuit trappers in ou, preventing them from mindlessly pursuit trapping reun with the though of mega lopunny coming in for free.

Future sight also allows lopunny to muscle through some of it's best checks such as mega venusaur, slowbro, lando-t, Hippowdon, Clefable etc that can stomach any two hits from lopunny, but get blown back by future sight, possibly allowing lopunny to break through and sweep.

Either Specs does boost Future Sight and Showdown recently implemented that, or it doesn't and it's a glitch that they have to fix because Specs Future Sight has OHKO'd Gyarados, Charizard Y and more for me (with Reuniclus not on the field).