Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

let me describe to you all the orgasmic experience of glalie+voltturn. with the glalie set of double-edge, ice shard, explosion(facade if you are a real man), and earthquake, and the voltturn members of raikou and landorus-t, you have a machine that can kill, wear down, revenge kill(ice shard), and clean(cm volt raikou). double-edge is better on glalie than return is because it gets the 2hko on skarm after rocks. this core is also excellent at wearing things down, such as bulky waters, steels, and sableye(if facade glalie.) if you have had an unpleasant experience with glalie, switch to double-edge, use voltturn, and use cleaners that share checks with glalie. i guarantee that you will be satisfied. and for cleaners that share checks with glalie, examples are scarf keldeo, bisharp, and the cm volt raikou used in the core. but seriously, a properly supported and used glalie can be a very frightening thing to switch into.

 

[The Manifold Curiosity]

Got to agree than Mence and Ninja are dominating the entire ORAS metagame to the point of warping it around themselves. If you don't have a hard stop to them (or you use them yourself) then its impossible to get high on the ladder. I have seen so many games where one opponent is clearly better than the other and is about to win until the losing player brings out Mence with a build that the other guy cannot beat. Mence is a one poke army and I have to have 3 checks to it in order to have any hope in bringing it down. Nothing can reliably stop it. Ninja is just as bad though, fortunately my mix bulk Umbreon is a hard counter to all of its sets (I think its the only OU legal counter in the game lol, and it does well against Mence). But if I did not have it or lose it earlier on then I am in so much trouble. Ninja can take down several so called checks until you find out what movesets its using and how to stop it, but by then its too late.

If you want a surefire way of climbing the ladder to the top then your team has to have ninja and Mence, because between them they can wipe out entire teams without needing any support. There is no other Mega that is powerful enough to justify not using Mence. Sabeye comes the closest only if you are using a full stall team, but even then I would use Mence to sweep.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Got to agree than Mence and Ninja are dominating the entire ORAS metagame to the point of warping it around themselves. If you don't have a hard stop to them (or you use them yourself) then its impossible to get high on the ladder. I have seen so many games where one opponent is clearly better than the other and is about to win until the losing player brings out Mence with a build that the other guy cannot beat. Mence is a one poke army and I have to have 3 checks to it in order to have any hope in bringing it down. Nothing can reliably stop it. Ninja is just as bad though, fortunately my mix bulk Umbreon is a hard counter to all of its sets (I think its the only OU legal counter in the game lol, and it does well against Mence). But if I did not have it or lose it earlier on then I am in so much trouble. Ninja can take down several so called checks until you find out what movesets its using and how to stop it, but by then its too late.

If you want a surefire way of climbing the ladder to the top then your team has to have ninja and Mence, because between them they can wipe out entire teams without needing any support. There is no other Mega that is powerful enough to justify not using Mence. Sabeye comes the closest only if you are using a full stall team, but even then I would use Mence to sweep.

actually, porygon2+tentacruel are hard counters to greninja. porygon2 also stops mence.

 

[master_marshmallow]

Slight nitpick, Mega Sceptile runs hp fire on it's standard set, so... don't switch scizor in. Unless you've scouted it and it has like substitute instead.

Considering the game isn't even out, I don't think he has a standard set yet, and the most standard set people are running is sub + 3 moves, none of which are HP fire because most of them run focus miss still.

 

[The Manifold Curiosity]

actually, porygon2+tentacruel are hard counters to greninja. porygon2 also stops mence.

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Salamence: 224-268 (56.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The damage calculator does not have Mega Mence yet who has +10 sdef so the damage taken is lower than that shown. I am using the full physical bulk version of Porygon2 who can switch into its boosted returns. Mence can switch between sub and roost to stall out Porygon 2's ice beams and once that's done continue to use dragon dance. Not a counter unless you start investing in special attack, which then gives you the problem with switching in so still no luck. This version of Mence also has a higher sdef than def so you cannot get a download boost to Porygon2's special attack.

Ninja can beat tentacruel with extrasonsory (not common these days) and some Ninja vairents have PuP for Porygon2. If you use both then you can beat ninja, but that's 2 checks to deal with one Pokemon in a team, not good.

 

[JMach]

actually, porygon2+tentacruel are hard counters to greninja. porygon2 also stops mence.

Okay, so you're saying its a necessity to run P-2 and Tentacruel just so you don't get rolled by GrenMence teams? Seems like a fun rule that doesn't overly influence the metagame or restrict teambuilding at all... :/

 

[Stallion]

I refuse to play ORAS again until MegaMence is banned. It took 29% from a fucking CB Entei Extremespeed. I have 4 SE moves on my team and 2 lots of priority and it still LOLed at me and swept me. I don't want to run a fucking HP Ice Zapdos or Mega Slowbro on every team so until it gets the boot, it's been real ORAS.

 

[Goodra]

Ninja is definitely top tier but I dunno if I wanna cry foul on him yet in OU. He's definitely a major threat but I've still found him frail and manageable without him ever taking out more then two team mates for me. MegaMence though....get the crap out of my OU already. Like Stallion said that thing is wrecking my teams and I've been forced to run Porygon2 on my main team just to check it. Celebi would be much more helpful to my team for the various other threats if MegaMence wasn't running around knocking off 4 -5 members again forcing me to use P2. I know this isn't a ban thread but I really hope that thing gets suspect day one on release.

 

[56k]

For the time being, there are more answers to salamence besides just porygon2. Now obviously you always need to scout for earth/fire/steel coverage but pokemon like skarmory, aggron, tyranitar, rhyperior, zapdos, sylveon, and diancie can generally go toe-to-toe with mence. That said, you will win/lose based on your coverage move guesses (which happens in all forms of pokemon; you can't win much more than 50% win rate once your playing people equally smart as you, equally high on the ladder, and you just have to guess or go for hax all the time).

I wouldn't say it's FUN to be going up against a salamence team, but there are more viable pokemon out there than you might initially guess, and having a switch in for them isn't impossible. Rock/Steel/Fairy types. And it's basically up to you to "play around" the substitutes, roosts, and coverage. Alternatively, you can give up on the idea of switching into mence and use your own pokemon with prankster, infiltrator, priority moves, sturdy, focus sashes, and boosting, and just be content that you'll win some and lose some.

I am by no means an apologist for mence but there won't be official ladder and bans for quite some time so if you want to play oras then you need to come up with some ideas for dealing with mence in the mean time. Obviously salamence users will adapt, but at the moment the sub/roost/dd/return set is less threatening than dd+3 attacks

 

[Red King]

Considering the game isn't even out, I don't think he has a standard set yet, and the most standard set people are running is sub + 3 moves, none of which are HP fire because most of them run focus miss still.

Considering we've been playing ORAS meta for about a month? (don't quote me on that) now, it does have a standard set. actually two. Or just one with a common variation. whatever. The two standard sets run either hp fire or substitute. So far i've see about half and half, so as i said before, its not safe to assume it's not carrying hp fire, so scout before doing so. Or, you can just get your scizor fried.

On another note, mence is broken. Don't apologize, don't say its not centralizing, and honestly, i get sad every time i teambuild for ORAS b/c i have to include one of the like 3 iffy checks. Its simply overpowerd, end of story. Its pretty apparent this thing is getting quickbanned.

 

[shilly]

i think a vast majority of us can agree that mega mence is a royal pain in the metagame's ass. its versatility, diverse movepool and albeit broken stats+ability combo match even the likes of mega mawile in terms of broken-ness. i can't tell you how many times i've spectated a battle where once a mega mence sets up a dd the opponent forfeits just to avoid a humiliating sweep at the beginning of the game. as a matter of fact, several times ill face off against that monster, sit back, and watch the game blow up in my face and witness the horrific deaths of my beloved team, one by one to one +2 return after another.

let's compare this king of the pocket monsters to some other powerful mons in the tier. it's by far a better dragon dancer than zard x, and that's saying something. at +1 mence leaves dents in teams that zard x could only dream of. at +2 mence's frustration/return can 2hko most of the tier. you have to pack mons such as porygon2 (which has pretty meager usage in ou) just to check this thing. it has zilch hard counters and even porygon2 has to watch out for a return after mence has set up to +2. the other aerilate user, mega pinsir, once one of the scariest mons in ou, is dwarfed by mega mence due to the dragon's better typing and versatility. mega mence really doesn't mind srs since it can safely roost with the exception of an ice beam coming its way. mega pinsir ALWAYS needs spinner support or else it's taking 50% of hp up its ass. also, the refresh set. just let me will-o-wisp you already, goddamn it!

needless to say, im starting to repeat myself. this thing is making the metagame crumble underneath our feet and oras hasnt even been released yet. mega mence is so damn common on every section of the ou ladder it's insane. mega salamence is a fuckboy and it needs to go.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

One mon I'm surprised no is talking about is Gastrodon. The thing is so antimeta and good right now its insane. It has great coverage in its stabs. Also ice beam and toxic can cover holes. Don't forget reliable recovery. Need something to stop raikou, Megaman, and Magnezone volt switch shenanigans? Want a hard stop to rotom-W? A great stop to rain and sand teams? Also hardly any Greninja are running HP Grass right now so its wall it quite well. Want to just laugh at Megaslowbro? Really this thing walls a lot in the meta right now try it out. Just partner it with Chestnaught or something else to take on ferrothorn then throw in some Mence counters and boom almost the whole meta is walled.

 

[MikeDawg]

At this point, mence discussion is pointless. It has been exhausted, and it's clear that it will be quick-banned on release.

On that note, has anybody found any success with Celebi? I have been trying out the nastypass set alongside heatran and alomomola (as per alexwolf's post in the good cores thread), and it fares decently well against many of the common mons atm such as rotom-w, zapdos, ferrothorn, lopunny, alomomola, etc. it has a rather easy time setting up and passing to whatever mon is desired.

 

[MANNAT]

At this point, mence discussion is pointless. It has been exhausted, and it's clear that it will be quick-banned on release.

On that note, has anybody found any success with Celebi? I have been trying out the nastypass set alongside heatran and alomomola (as per alexwolf's post in the good cores thread), and it fares well against many of the common mons atm such as ferrothorn, lopunny, alomomola, etc. it has a rather easy time setting up and passing to whatever mon is desired.

Considering that Heatran is #7 and Greninja at #2 on the usage list for ou and may be even higher for ORAS OU and fast tauntran shits over nastypass celebi, as well as greninja being self-explanitory I believe that that core may not be as good as it could be, but it is very good against teams not running heatran+greninja offensive cores.

 

[MANNAT]

Has anyone thought about countering Megamence with Rhyperior? Rock blast can break Mence's subs and hit for heavy damage, and he can OHKO a salemence that is not behind a sub with avalanche after it is hit. It can also bullk hits from mence for dayz.

Here are some calcs for mence at +2 with it's updated megamence stats:
+2 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 234-276 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 155-183 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Whereas Rhyperior does:
44+ Atk Rhyperior Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 420-496 (126.8 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
44+ Atk Rhyperior Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 198-240 (59.8 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(may I point out that that is with only 44 EVs invested in attack)

Edit: Sorry for the double post

 

[Kurona]

Has anyone thought about countering Megamence with Rhyperior? Rock blast can break Mence's subs and hit for heavy damage, and he can OHKO a salemence that is not behind a sub with avalanche after it is hit. It can also bullk hits from mence for dayz.

Here are some calcs for mence at +2 with it's updated megamence stats:
+2 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 234-276 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 155-183 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Whereas Rhyperior does:
44+ Atk Rhyperior Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 420-496 (126.8 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
44+ Atk Rhyperior Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 198-240 (59.8 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(may I point out that that is with only 44 EVs invested in attack)

Edit: Sorry for the double post

Rhyperior is generally used as a check to Megamence right now; but you do have to watch out for mixed/special variants carrying draco or hydro. Even then this is kinda irrelevant imo since mence is gon get banned; we're allowed to talk here as if it's already banned so might as well take advantage of that

 

[yoloburn]

Considering that Heatran is #7 and Greninja at #2 on the usage list for ou and may be even higher for ORAS OU and fast tauntran shits over nastypass celebi, as well as greninja being self-explanitory I believe that that core may not be as good as it could be, but it is very good against teams not running heatran+greninja offensive cores.

Celebi outspeeds Heatran and Greninja cannot OHKO it. Neither of those two pose much of a problem as long as you don't try to set up in their face. I've used it with Scarf Keldeo and can confirm that it puts in work.

 

[MANNAT]

Celebi outspeeds Heatran and Greninja cannot OHKO it. Neither of those two pose much of a problem as long as you don't try to set up in their face. I've used it with Scarf Keldeo and can confirm that it puts in work.

Heatran just has to use taunt, it doesn't have to go 1st, and greninja's Gunk shot can OHKO after rocks.

Proof:
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 322-382 (79.7 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

or if it's running def over spdef:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 328-385 (81.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

After a layer of rocks, LO gren can OHKO celeb

Heatran:
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 290-344 (71.7 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With no spdef invest:
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 396-468 (98 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Heatran and Greninja pose a HUGE threat to celebi, but it can be worked around if the player using Celebi has enough skill.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Okay, so you're saying its a necessity to run P-2 and Tentacruel just so you don't get rolled by GrenMence teams? Seems like a fun rule that doesn't overly influence the metagame or restrict teambuilding at all... :/

Mega Sceptile outspeeds and OHKO's both unless Salamence sets up, but I have Rhyperior to discourage that. I've yet to be swept by one (not saying it isn't broken, I've seen what it can do). Greninja is near impossible to switch in to, though.

 

[yoloburn]

Heatran just has to use taunt, it doesn't have to go 1st, and greninja's Gunk shot can OHKO after rocks.

Proof:
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 322-382 (79.7 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

or if it's running def over spdef:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 328-385 (81.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

After a layer of rocks, LO gren can OHKO celeb

Heatran:
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 290-344 (71.7 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With no spdef invest:
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 396-468 (98 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Heatran and Greninja pose a HUGE threat to celebi, but it can be worked around if the player using Celebi has enough skill.

You're missing the point. No Celebi is gonna set up in front of Heatran or Greninja. You set up while neither of them is on the field, which is not hard.

 

[havokchomp123]

I'm expecting greninja to be suspect tested and possibly banned because I its incredible movepool and lack of relevant counters in OU. Of course I don't feel greninja should be banned as I still haven't had much trouble stopping it and it still is pretty frail, but I think we can all agree that game freak needs to cut it out with all these overpowered abilities. Protean, gale wings, parental bond, drought, magic bounce, "ate" abilities, adaptability, huge power, stance change, and the list goes on

 

[Flare Blitzle]

I refuse to play ORAS again until MegaMence is banned. It took 29% from a fucking CB Entei Extremespeed. I have 4 SE moves on my team and 2 lots of priority and it still LOLed at me and swept me. I don't want to run a fucking HP Ice Zapdos or Mega Slowbro on every team so until it gets the boot, it's been real ORAS.

I hear ya; I'm not not touching the meta again until it's gone either. People abusing it while it's here is fine, I understand that, but it's just no fun to play against repeatedly because 95% of teams are now packing it. I'll just wait until next week when ORAS is released and it's quickbanned to get back into things.

 

[havokchomp123]

8 more days! Yea we should just drop mega mence discussion entirely as its just going to end up getting banned(already predicted this the day he was announced) though I wanna know if u guys think greninja should be banned?

 

[shilly]

greninja? eh, i'd see it being suspect tested, surely, but not necessarily banned. it's not really that broken, per se, it's just so versatile to the point where it's annoying. as people have stated already, it has slight 4MSS so there's always something that can stop frog in its tracks if it's not carrying the right move (empoleon if it doesn't have low kick, ferrothorn if it doesn't have hp fire, etc etc) and i think that hurts it a bit. however, people have been experimenting with losing the water stab and using a mixed set with gunk shot (lol gross. what does that even look like coming from greninja?) and low kick, along with ice beam and hp fire/extrasensory/grass knot. and i have to say, testing it out myself, it's pretty dangerous. hydro pump isn't that necessary since everything that comes from frog is stab anyways, and water doesn't have the best coverage for him what with having access to ice beam, gunk shot, all these other nifty toys.

i'd say ninja is an s-rank mon in the oras meta, no doubt, but is it broken? that's debatable. it's likely that it will have the meta, once again, centralize around him quite a bit, but only time will tell if that's enough to earn it a ban.

 

[Machi]

8 more days! Yea we should just drop mega mence discussion entirely as its just going to end up getting banned(already predicted this the day he was announced) though I wanna know if u guys think greninja should be banned?

I think they've already said some pages back and in the viability thread to just drop all discussions about bans altogether, it just isn't the time to talk about suspect voting yet.

At this point, mence discussion is pointless. It has been exhausted, and it's clear that it will be quick-banned on release.

On that note, has anybody found any success with Celebi? I have been trying out the nastypass set alongside heatran and alomomola (as per alexwolf's post in the good cores thread), and it fares decently well against many of the common mons atm such as rotom-w, zapdos, ferrothorn, lopunny, alomomola, etc. it has a rather easy time setting up and passing to whatever mon is desired.

I use a Weakness Policy Pass Celebi and BP to either Talon/Scarf Diggers/MDiancie - depending on what is appropriate match up against the opposing team - and proceed to punch holes. Other than that my Celebi carries Healing wish so as to provide a second wind for one of my three clean ups, which prevents it from being dead weight should Goth/Rotom trick scarf it.

I did try a Nasty pass and also found it useful as a means to put pressure and checkk MBro. Definitely a great passer in the meta.