I always preferred to have more firepower, sure perhaps bullet punch MIGHT help you to kill a specific threat, perhaps, but in exchange of what? Metagross is already fast enough with the ability to come out on top against other base 110 stuff most of the time, it is already fast and strong enough to kill the metagame without priority
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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
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If you keep Metagross healthy for the late game there aren't a lot of things that can outspeed and ohko it anyway. Not saying there aren't any, but Bullet Punch isn't going to KO a scarf Landorus-T if it has any decent amount of HP anyway. IMO Metagross thrives primarily at dealing massive chunks of damage, forcing switches and cleaning up late game. Bullet Punch only helps to fulfill one of those criteria. I'd leave the priority to a teammate.
I'm also personally a little torn on Hammer Arm. I realize it's more powerful than Earthquake with a Tough Claws boost and overall might have better coverage, but it has its downsides too. You can beat Skarm 1v1 if it isn't running counter but your opponent can switch into something that can take a Hammer Arm and outspeed you after the subsequent speed drop(s). He can also stay in and let you eat some Rocky Helmet if that's what he's running. You can take out Ferrothorn but you're going to be damaged in the process from Iron Barbs at the very least, which puts you in range for a few revenge kills such as Bisharp's Knock Off (no mindgames required after speed drop) and Talonflame's Flare Blitz. If you have Metagross you should have a couple teammates to take care of Skarm/Ferro anyway, and since they're walls without a ton of offensive presence it often provides an easy switch in.
If you're running Metagross to soften up your opponent for another one of your physical sweepers then Hammer Arm is superior. But if he's your primary sweeper I think it has a few drawbacks, especially the speed drop which is going to force you out a few times.
I'm also personally a little torn on Hammer Arm. I realize it's more powerful than Earthquake with a Tough Claws boost and overall might have better coverage, but it has its downsides too. You can beat Skarm 1v1 if it isn't running counter but your opponent can switch into something that can take a Hammer Arm and outspeed you after the subsequent speed drop(s). He can also stay in and let you eat some Rocky Helmet if that's what he's running. You can take out Ferrothorn but you're going to be damaged in the process from Iron Barbs at the very least, which puts you in range for a few revenge kills such as Bisharp's Knock Off (no mindgames required after speed drop) and Talonflame's Flare Blitz. If you have Metagross you should have a couple teammates to take care of Skarm/Ferro anyway, and since they're walls without a ton of offensive presence it often provides an easy switch in.
If you're running Metagross to soften up your opponent for another one of your physical sweepers then Hammer Arm is superior. But if he's your primary sweeper I think it has a few drawbacks, especially the speed drop which is going to force you out a few times.
Agreed on Bullet Punch, but statistically Hammer Arm is very useful.
Cbtalonflame will always ohko mega metagross with flare blitz anyways, it's better for Metagross to switch out against it, especially since metagross is much less punished by entry hazards and damage recoil like Talonflame.
Hammer Arm other than Ferrothorn and Skarmory also allows you to easily hit Air Baloon users like Heatran, Excadrill sometimes Magnezone (heatran will be 100% ohkoed after Stealth Rocks, while Magnezone has a 94% chance to get killed without sr support) it also gives you a 100% (well 90% in a way) way to ohko Bisharp, since Earthquake only has a 19% chance to ohko him.
MegaMetagross is versatile, it does not need to be a cleaner, he can also act so that he can easily pave the way for another sweeper.
I'm not saying Hammer Arm isn't good. I think it is a better option than Earthquake, just not a fan of the speed drops.
Also I was referring to non CB Talonflame revenge killing you. But you're right Metagross is going to be switching out anyway
Also I was referring to non CB Talonflame revenge killing you. But you're right Metagross is going to be switching out anyway
I'll take speed drops all day everyday if it allows me to get past Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Heatran, Skarmory (lacking counter), and Bisharp all in one slot. It also allows you to have a chance of one shotting Mega Gyarados. The speed drop sucks but honestly it is so negligible compared to the benefits hammer arm offers.
Another thing to note about Mega Metagross with Bullet Punch: it allows you to switch into Mega Gardevoir and OHKO with some prior damage (56.3% chance to OHKO with Bullet Punch). Without Bullet Punch, Garde has a chance to KO with a Hyper Voice and Focus Blast or can Focus Blast on the switch-in (RNGesus has a soft spot for waifus) and Focus Blast afterwards.
This is just another plus for Bullet Punch.
This is just another plus for Bullet Punch.
Mega Metagross is much faster than Gard and will just annihilate it with meteor mash. Gard doesn't get to hit twice like that.
I guess he meant when you aren't mega-evolved yet, but ye you're right Gardevoir is the last thing to think about when you have a metagross
in general, fast Pokemon can still utilize priority well. talonflame is fast as fuck, but it wouldn't see any usage without Gale Wings because it wouldn't be worth using over other more consistent options. being able to outspeed other priority users with your own priority can be really helpful, especially on offensive teams.
bullet punch also has the added bonus of giving metagross the chance to mega evolve against offensive teams without having to worry about its shit pre-evo speed by picking off something or forcing a switch and giving you the free turn you need.
(I know you already settled this, but I still felt these were points worth mentioning)
Letter
to: Ye of little faith
from: Ragnarock
Metagross-M is as you all know is THE meta currently. Although this is true, Metagross does not need priority, steel is perhaps the second strongest defensive type in the game. Personally on my Ou team I run a speedy Metagross build instead of a bulky one, so I see where your coming at it, but Metagross simply does not need the +1 priority. One of my side teams runs: a smeagle with belly drum, and baton pass into Speedy Metagross the moves I personally run with it are as follows: Earthquake (this one does not need explaining), Ice Punch (this is for the Dragons), Zen Headbutt (Mostly for the flinch but the STAB is not bad either), and Meteor Mash (Mainly for the STAB as well.)
Edit: I have no wish to restart a fight.
to: Ye of little faith
from: Ragnarock
Metagross-M is as you all know is THE meta currently. Although this is true, Metagross does not need priority, steel is perhaps the second strongest defensive type in the game. Personally on my Ou team I run a speedy Metagross build instead of a bulky one, so I see where your coming at it, but Metagross simply does not need the +1 priority. One of my side teams runs: a smeagle with belly drum, and baton pass into Speedy Metagross the moves I personally run with it are as follows: Earthquake (this one does not need explaining), Ice Punch (this is for the Dragons), Zen Headbutt (Mostly for the flinch but the STAB is not bad either), and Meteor Mash (Mainly for the STAB as well.)
Edit: I have no wish to restart a fight.
Hmm... I don't have much to say in the topic of Metagross that hasn't already been said, but you raised a very interesting point. Steel is the second strongest defensive typing in the game? I was under the impression that it is far and away the best defensive type due to GameFreak showering it with resistances. Don't tell me it's balanced by weaknesses to Ground and Fighting, either, because Rock type would like a word with you. What did you think was the best type? Flying?
I'm guessing he was referring to the fairy type, as that type is broken as hell with 4 resistances, 2 weaknesses too shitty attacking types, and great stab options. Like look at clefable, literally the only thing making it viable (apart from its great sweeping potential) is its defensive capabilities with its typing, without the fairy typing, clef is much worse. (see: gen 5)
Just thought I should clear that up
With Greninja gone now, could Starmie come back as the fast Water type with Analytic and such?
Edit: while it doesn't really beat Megagross unless the latter switches in on hydro pump, I just wonder how it will fare in OU with Gren's ban.
Edit: while it doesn't really beat Megagross unless the latter switches in on hydro pump, I just wonder how it will fare in OU with Gren's ban.
That's generally what's being touted on the Viability Rankings thread. Many people are putting it forward for A- and I'm kind of inclined to agree.
I personally like Starmie a whole lot better as a defensive Rapid Spinner than an all out attacker. It honestly does that job better than Excadrill since it has reliable recovery and Scald. That was something Greninja could never do; hazard cleaning. I don't know if it's going to end up being A-, but it certainly got a lot better with Greninja's ban.
Then what the hell's the first?
Inb4 fairy due to the uncommon weaknesses and key resistances.
I honestly still find steel the best defensive type.
So Klefki = [blackgatesofmordor.jpg]
Fairy steel is the best defensive dual typing. I said that steel is second simply because it has three weaknesses where as fairy has two (steels weaknesses are also more common because going purely on the bases of 0 weaknesses the Elecktross family has none do to levi). Make no mistake my shiny metagross is my second favorite pokemon after Gallade. (which is not fairy)
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I just went to Bulbapedia and holy crap does Steel resist a lot of stuff. Bug, Dragon, Flying, Normal, Ice, Fairy, Steel, Psychic and an immunity to Poison vs Fairy's Dark, Fighting, and Bug plus an immunity to Dragon. Steel is definitely the better defensive typing.
Yeah. They introduced a new type to 'balance' the game and of all things, they buffed STEEL and FIRE!!?? I cannot physically comprehend that. Steel getting an offensive buff is fine, but defensively? I mean, it only had 9 resists and an immunity. And fire is amazing as well both offensively and defensively. Ice and Grass got nothing, and BUG GOT NERFED! The Fairy type could have fixed a lot of problems, but it managed to do... not much.
Grass/Ice is the worst dual defensive typing in the games been that way for awhile...
EDIT:pretty sure you already knew that though.
Didn't Steel actually receive a defensive nerf? It lost resistance to Dark and Ghost (part of why Aegi was great and makes Knock Off orgasmicly good). Bug getting nerfs was just.. Game Freak pls and I disagree with Fire being a good Defensive typing for one reason only: Stealth Rocks. That single hazard takes away 25% of a Fire type's HP (which is why we don't see bulky Arcanine around and instead see Fire/resists Rock) and leaves it in a much worse position if it wants to tank something. Heatran does fine because of its Steel typing but I believe Fire is not a goos Defensive type.
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I feel that m-lop should still be running jolly (imo) as it allows u to outrun:
Torn-T
Weavile
+1 Mega T-Tar
+1adamant (mega) gyara, altaria, and dragonite
Speed tie with M-Manetric and opposing lopunnys
Outrun neutral speed mega sceptile, beedrill, alakazam, aerodactyl
And also Outrun a whole bunch of positive speed base 100 stuff pre mega-evo
As well as a hole slew of scarfers/dders that I've forgotten
So its really up to personal preference, as the extra power can help a lot, but I feel there are some pretty important speed tiers there that u should definitely want to Outrun.
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