OU ORAS OU Discussion Thread

[Ithi]

i've decided i hate you all once again, especially puck.42 however, the point is to start healthy discussion so lets leave our bantering out of this chat, and lets further discuss this behemoth in the metagame. hydreigon forces a lot of unfavorable positions vs the opp and especially excels against balance/slower paced teams or even vs resists. as tahat also pointed out hydreigon does tend to be a very tricky mon to justify a slot on your team for.

However it still sees great tournament success and has valuable defensive properties e.g. being a longer lasting check vs bisharp with a simple spread and roost.

 

[mixnite]

i am being genuine when i say that twave resist berry hydreigon is the way to go
for every game where specs hydreigon claims kills and does big damage there are two or more where it is essentially fodder
the twave set alleviates this because paralysis is broken this gen and is a very easy click on not only the things hydreigon forces out, but also on the things that switch into it like clef and torn

 

[mixnite]

Would rather look at sableye / hoopa over banning moth

i was just rereading this forum and saw this take. while i think unbanning sab is a horrible idea and one that should not be considered seriously however i think there might be a place for hoopa-u
this might just be my hubris and inexperience talking but i don't think hoopa would be wholly unmanagable. i think a suspect test or a suspect ladder would be a cool idea just to get a feel for how it would play out in the current meta

 

[UltraSword]

i was just rereading this forum and saw this take. while i think unbanning sab is a horrible idea and one that should not be considered seriously, i think there might be a place for hoopa-u.
this might just be my hubris and inexperience talking but i don't think hoopa would be wholly unmanagable. i think a suspect test or a suspect ladder would be a cool idea just to get a feel for how it would play out in the current meta.

Personally I think hoopa u should be tested for the same reason he is uu in gen 9 (u turn and being too slow) but one thing people should be wary of is choice scarf. This makes hoopa u faster than every pokemon that learns u-turn in ou (as well as most pokemon in general) while being able to sweep most of the tier without needing an item like choice band/specs to boost its power.

 

[mixnite]

scarf would be pretty good as shown by scarf volcanion goobing poorly built offenses coupled with trick that would ruin a clefables day however i still think it would be manageable because its sooo frail physically and is very easily revenge killed by the tax collector that is pursuit weavile and other priority users like metagross, scizor, lopunny, bisharp, etc.

 

[Always!]

Crossposting from the ORAS OU Discord:

Scaldingly hot take perhaps, but Mega-Lopunny nowadays does not need Return. In many cases Ice Punch can be slotted over it, which still leaves room for an extra utility move, e.g. Quick Attack. The reason is that almost all of Mega-Lopunny's targets on offense are weak to Ice, and a super-effective Ice Punch does maybe 1% less than Return. In exchange, you are now able to take on a bunch of Pokemon that you normally wouldn't be able to before, like Gliscor, Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Dragonite. There are very few Return targets that do not get hit super-effectively by Ice Punch, and they're mostly stuff that you cannot break anyways (e.g. Clef, Slowbro, Reuniclus, Cresselia). There are only a few offensive targets that you now cannot take on at full health / slight-to-moderate chip (Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gallade, and Mega Charizard-Y are the ones that mainly come to mind). Based on this I'd wager that Mega-Lopunny without Return might have more utility than with it.

 

[UltraSword]

Crossposting from the ORAS OU Discord:

Scaldingly hot take perhaps, but Mega-Lopunny nowadays does not need Return. In many cases Ice Punch can be slotted over it, which still leaves room for an extra utility move, e.g. Quick Attack. The reason is that almost all of Mega-Lopunny's targets on offense are weak to Ice, and a super-effective Ice Punch does maybe 1% less than Return. In exchange, you are now able to take on a bunch of Pokemon that you normally wouldn't be able to before, like Gliscor, Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Dragonite. There are very few Return targets that do not get hit super-effectively by Ice Punch, and they're mostly stuff that you cannot break anyways (e.g. Clef, Slowbro, Reuniclus, Cresselia). There are only a few offensive targets that you now cannot take on at full health / slight-to-moderate chip (Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gallade, and Mega Charizard-Y are the ones that mainly come to mind). Based on this I'd wager that Mega-Lopunny without Return might have more utility than with it.

Not that I am saying you are wrong but I personally think mega lopunny should still have return because quick attack while good for priority it doesn't do a lot of damage and relying on hi jump kick as its most powerful move is dangerous due to how the move works (losing half of your health if you miss or you get blocked by protect is not great).

Also I do want to say I am glad to see the recent spike of activity in this thread because oras ou is easily my second favorite generation of ou.

 

[mixnite]

i think its a risk worth taking on certain builds because the pay-off is huge. being able to do 75 minimum to lando and chomp forces so much progress that the lop user wouldn't be able to force otherwise. for the offense mu you dont click return as much as you would like so dropping it doesn't hinder lop as much as you would think. as always said a lot of the targets that are hit by return you don't really beat barring zard-y and garde so you drop those mus in favour of completely dominating the grounds that try to slow lop down

 

[UltraSword]

i think its a risk worth taking on certain builds because the pay-off is huge. being able to do 75 minimum to lando and chomp forces so much progress that the lop user wouldn't be able to force otherwise. for the offense mu you dont click return as much as you would like so dropping it doesn't hinder lop as much as you would think. as always said a lot of the targets that are hit by return you don't really beat barring zard-y and garde so you drop those mus in favour of completely dominating the grounds that try to slow lop down

So then based on this do you think mega lopunny could replace fake out with a completely different move? Though fake out technically has better priority and causes flinch if what you are saying is true could quick attack possibly accomplish something similiar? If you do think so what move should replace fake out?

 

[Ithi]

So then based on this do you think mega lopunny could replace fake out with a completely different move? Though fake out technically has better priority and causes flinch if what you are saying is true could quick attack possibly accomplish something similiar? If you do think so what move should replace fake out?

fake out should never be dropped, its priority and utility is nigh unmatched, guaranteed mega, guaranteed damage, and picks off crucial sweepers

 

[UltraSword]

fake out should never be dropped, its priority and utility is nigh unmatched, guaranteed mega, guaranteed damage, and picks off crucial sweepers

Yeah fair enough. I am not sure what I was thinking when I said you could replace fake out. I guess I just wanted to know for science

 

[mixnite]

So then based on this do you think mega lopunny could replace fake out with a completely different move? Though fake out technically has better priority and causes flinch if what you are saying is true could quick attack possibly accomplish something similiar? If you do think so what move should replace fake out?

fake out should never be dropped, its priority and utility is nigh unmatched, guaranteed mega, guaranteed damage, and picks off crucial sweepers

i dont think it has to be so black and white. while you do give up A LOT when you drop fake out, it also frees up a slot that can be huge. imagine having hjk ice punch encore and magic coat or plain old return for example. with magic coat you dominate the chomp and lando who come in and attempt to rock on lop only to get them bounced back and then dropped the next turn to ice punch. while this is an edge case, i still think there might be some value to straying away from what is considered "the standard"

 

[UltraSword]

i dont think it has to be so black and white. while you do give up A LOT when you drop fake out, it also frees up a slot that can be huge. imagine having hjk ice punch encore and magic coat or plain old return for example. with magic coat you dominate the chomp and lando who come in and attempt to rock on lop only to get them bounced back and then dropped the next turn to ice punch. while this is an edge case, i still think there might be some value to straying away from what is considered "the standard"

Yeah in theory you could also do something like hjk quick attack ice punch and a move like thunder wave or toxic because mega lopunny is so fast it can spread status at least somewhat easily (or at least in theory). But yeah you do lose a lot from getting rid of fake out

 

[mixnite]

i think there are better para spreaders (HYDREIGON USE TWAVE HYDREIGON) but toxic is really nice to hit slowbro and the one tangrowth you face every 800 games. dropping fake out for toxic though? ... boss we can do better

 

[tahatahat]

Crossposting from the ORAS OU Discord:

Scaldingly hot take perhaps, but Mega-Lopunny nowadays does not need Return. In many cases Ice Punch can be slotted over it, which still leaves room for an extra utility move, e.g. Quick Attack. The reason is that almost all of Mega-Lopunny's targets on offense are weak to Ice, and a super-effective Ice Punch does maybe 1% less than Return. In exchange, you are now able to take on a bunch of Pokemon that you normally wouldn't be able to before, like Gliscor, Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Dragonite. There are very few Return targets that do not get hit super-effectively by Ice Punch, and they're mostly stuff that you cannot break anyways (e.g. Clef, Slowbro, Reuniclus, Cresselia). There are only a few offensive targets that you now cannot take on at full health / slight-to-moderate chip (Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gallade, and Mega Charizard-Y are the ones that mainly come to mind). Based on this I'd wager that Mega-Lopunny without Return might have more utility than with it

Hi Always I have an even scaldingly hotter take:
Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Quick Attack
- Encore
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch

 

[UltraSword]

(HYDREIGON USE TWAVE HYDREIGON)

To be blunt and to the point...why?

 

[Ithi]

To be blunt and to the point...why?

T-wave hydreigon is able to cripple a lot of its would be checks and opens the holes for some slower threats(e.g. gallade) vs something like a tornadus to set up a sweep. A crippled torn-t or even a serp is huge for the dreigon team.

 

[UltraSword]

T-wave hydreigon is able to cripple a lot of its would be checks and opens the holes for some slower threats(e.g. gallade) vs something like a tornadus to set up a sweep. A crippled torn-t or even a serp is huge for the dreigon team.

But can't pokemon like thundurus i do that better? And isn't hydreigon fairly slow compared to other t-wave users anyway?

 

[Ithi]

But can't pokemon like thundurus i do that better? And isn't hydreigon fairly slow compared to other t-wave users anyway?

You're absolutely correct, hydreigon IS slower than most para support in the amazing pokes like thundy and serp. However, drei's role isn't to try and glare 1v1 but to lure in its checks and cripple them via paralysis. this can also be applied to some really annoying pokes like m-alt e.g. basically you're punching holes for yourself and your teammates to muscle through would be answers

 

[UltraSword]

You're absolutely correct, hydreigon IS slower than most para support in the amazing pokes like thundy and serp. However, drei's role isn't to try and glare 1v1 but to lure in its checks and cripple them via paralysis. this can also be applied to some really annoying pokes like m-alt e.g. basically you're punching holes for yourself and your teammates to muscle through would be answers

Yeah that sounds like the epitome of anti-meta pokemon (in a good way). I might try that at some point.

 

[Ithi]

Yeah that sounds like the epitome of anti-meta pokemon (in a good way). I might try that at some point.

I completely forgot to say this but you can also tech t-wave dreigon to paralyze certain threats 1v1 a la resist berries

 

[UltraSword]

I completely forgot to say this but you can also tech t-wave dreigon to paralyze certain threats 1v1 a la resist berries

Yeah I was thinking of doing some kind of av set with max special defense to see if I could tank one Fairy attack but your way sounds better lol.

Edit: I also just remembered that I can't use thunder wave with av so...*skull*

 

[mixnite]

the reason i'm such a big advocate for t-wave hydreigon is because it has several opportunities to cripple the opponents. absolutely none of hydreigon's switch ins like t-wave barring mega diancie who has to fear being smashed by your coverage move of choice (it should be earth power to beat bisharp). adding on to this the fact that the pokemon that hydreigon forces out also don't like t-wave you find yourself with a match made in heaven
running a resist berry like yache, chople or even tanga accentuates this even further because you expand the pool of pokemon that hydreigon is able to paralyse like weavile and alakazam and lopunny.

 

[mixnite]

forgot to mention this but hydrei also has the fantastic defensive benefits of being a dragon type that allow it to be decent into serp and zard-y
with t-wave you completely ruin these pokémon

 

[UltraSword]

forgot to mention this but hydrei also has the fantastic defensive benefits of being a dragon type that allow it to be decent into serp and zard-y
with t-wave you completely ruin these pokémon

Ok so what should hydreigon's item and moveset (besides thunder wave) be?

Edit: Also happy 50th post everyone wooooo