OU ORAS OU Discussion Thread

How do you feel about ORAS OU?

  • Its Really Good and Fun!

  • Its Good

  • Its Ok

  • Its Bad

  • Needs some big changes


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What do people think of hydreigon rn? I was suprised to see he wasn't brought a single time this spl because I feel like he has a lot of potential.

The main set I've been trying a lot is a lo roost 3 attacks set as shown here:
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 24 Atk / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
Naive Nature
- Superpower
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Roost

Pretty simple set, dark pulse is incredibly spammable when paired with flash cannon to deter fairies looking to soak it up and superpower threatens chansey while also letting it check bisharp fairly effectively (This is also why I choose a -spdef nature). You only need 232 speed evs since the speed tier is awkward and theres no reason to investment further after covering base 95s.

If you don't need it to instantly threaten chansey (after all, with that spikes immunity and roost this guy can go the distance) a similar set with full special also is great

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor / Taunt
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Roost

Draco meteor is strong neutral coverage, but taunt is another decent option to mess with dark neutral special walls that can't threaten hydregion back like spdef tran, gastro, spdef hippo etc.
I feel like LO Superpower is pretty underexplored and honestly fulfills a lot of what you want Hydreigon to do as a stallbreaker. It's probably more difficult in practice when you're facing those Clef + Chansey fat teams where you are basically required to get the turn they switch in right or forfeit the momentum you've gained. Still, you can also use those turns to Roost and offset LO recoil so it could be a decent choice with the correct support. Being able to smack opposing TTar / MTTar is pretty awesome as well, who weirdly wall most Hydreigon without U-Turn (it seems so unnatural...). Somebody should build a team with it and post it in the Bazaar thread alongside their experience playing with it.

On a tangent that is somewhat related to both the previous Zard-Y topic and also options for Hydreigon, does anyone have any thoughts on the use of Tailwind in the metagame? I've seen a few pastes with it as a last utility move on some Pokemon like Latias, and am curious if anybody thinks that it could be a viable component of some team archetype / strategy.
The problem with hydreigon is its awkward speed tier, serp, moth and fat cores which it can struggle vs. You don't really need superpower, if you really wanted to tech dreigon, give it headsmash for demons like moth that may try and qd vs you. Another problem is the fact its a hydreigon, if you're not using it to nuke people off the face of the earth, what's the point?

I do really like hydreigon, but I feel the lack of options like nasty plot, defog really make it as a much more niche pick than it ought to be. Otherwise you could justify hydreigon on slower structures
I do agree Hydreigon is slept on especially with its decent bulk and the meta being slower, but you do not need superpower. Taunt is simply the best stallbreaker option, and even u-turn with rocks up can make progress.

The main problem with Hydreigon is 4MSS - you want taunt, roost, dark pulse, draco meteor, flamethrower, earth power, flash cannon, u-turn, and even twave is kinda cool and surf can 2hko gliscor while hitting some steels. In this meta I think you probably want Draco, as it hits like a nuke and in this trade meta its valuable. You also really want Dark Pulse. However, double stabs is walled by fairies and if you run Flash Cannon then weird stuff like AV Bisharp wall you. Then you kind of want Roost but then you miss out on Uturn/Taunt.

The other problem is that its a dark resist that doesn't check dark types (Weavile/Bisarhp/Tyranitar all go past it) and a dragon type that doesn't check Volcarona.

I wish it got Knock Off or Defog this gen, would have made it much better. If you're gonna use it, unironically use specs w/ u-turn or LO w/ draco.

i found the discussion on Hydreigon super interesting and would like to contribute further with an idea that i came up with recently and shared in the ORAS discord;

:xy/hydreigon:
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Work Up
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Superpower

Work Up is a suprisingly good set up move for Hydreigon especially when running Life Orb as the item since it gives Hydreigon the +1 it boost from Choice Specs in addition to the boost from Life Orb which is especially nice since it doesn't lock Hydreigon into one move. while i haven't yet built a team with this set, i want to at least show off some calcs that might convince the doubters;

vs. Clefable :clefable:

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 359-424 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 395-465 (100.2 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs. Chansey :chansey:
+1 0- Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 416-491 (64.7 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0- Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 416-491 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

as you can see, Hydreigon is really strong.

i really like that Work Up boosts both offensive stats allowing for sets such as these to exist. one can also entirely forgo running a Physical Attack, in this case Superpower, and still reap the benefits of the boost to your Special Attack. i could very easily see Work Up + Taunt or Roost being run alongside Dark Pulse/ Draco Meteor and Flash Cannon/ Earth Power or Substitute + Work Up with Leftovers as the item on a bulkier team similar to the SS/ SV sets that run Nasty Plot.

in closing, i hope this discovery puts some ideas in the heads of builders out there to find a structure that Hydreigon can best utilise its this unique set of qualities.

shoutouts to Always! and chargedram
 
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Do you guys feel Emboar can be worth using in Gen 6 OU? With a choice band set, it is a nuclear fire-type wallbreaker that can revenge kill Mega Metagross and Mega Alakazam, and it is still fast enough to cause many balance structures a ton of problems. It isn't weak to Stealth Rock and has a high HP stat to let it eat flare blitz recoil.

Edit: can also use 108 BP electric coverage against Slowbro
 
Do you guys feel Emboar can be worth using in Gen 6 OU? With a choice band set, it is a nuclear fire-type wallbreaker that can revenge kill Mega Metagross and Mega Alakazam, and it is still fast enough to cause many balance structures a ton of problems. It isn't weak to Stealth Rock and has a high HP stat to let it eat flare blitz recoil.

Edit: can also use 108 BP electric coverage against Slowbro
I'm personally not a fan but emboar have been used in oras seasonal this year
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-836900
 
Do you guys feel Emboar can be worth using in Gen 6 OU? With a choice band set, it is a nuclear fire-type wallbreaker that can revenge kill Mega Metagross and Mega Alakazam, and it is still fast enough to cause many balance structures a ton of problems. It isn't weak to Stealth Rock and has a high HP stat to let it eat flare blitz recoil.

Edit: can also use 108 BP electric coverage against Slowbro

it could work as a cool offensive Weavile and Volcarona check similar to Infernape but with a more immediate offensive presence. i wouldn't like to switch into Life Orb Flare Blitz that's backed by Superpower and a potential Wild Charge to smash my Manaphy. Sucker Punch is also a good tool to prevent revenge kill guys like Alakazam as well. don't get me wrong, Emboar sucks and there's no denying it but it has cool tools that give it a real niche in the tier which is always appreciated

i picked Tepig in b2w2

:bw/tepig:
 
Do you guys feel Emboar can be worth using in Gen 6 OU? With a choice band set, it is a nuclear fire-type wallbreaker that can revenge kill Mega Metagross and Mega Alakazam, and it is still fast enough to cause many balance structures a ton of problems. It isn't weak to Stealth Rock and has a high HP stat to let it eat flare blitz recoil.

Edit: can also use 108 BP electric coverage against Slowbro
more of a "fun" option so to speak but it could absolutely work tbh. Very potent stab combination backed by reckless and some nice defensive utility aganist stuff like weavile and bisharp. I'll list some sets I think could work

Emboar @ Expert Belt / Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Sucker Punch

Expert belt is by far the best option here because emboar is already naturally very threatening and doesn't need to further compromise its limited longevity with life orb or lock into a move (since while strong, neither of its stabs are something you want to lock yourself into, and banded sucker punch is a big gamble lmao.

Emboar @ Expert Belt
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 116 Atk / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Rash Nature
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Superpower
- Sucker Punch / Hidden Power Ice

Mixed also could work well because you have better longevity when your fire stab doesn't force you to commit suicide. Grass knot is also a much, much better move for hitting slowbro then wild charge is since fire blast into grass knot will 2hko with rocks up unlike 2 wild charges. Spread maxes out offensive stats while having enough speed to outrun mega venusaur (fire blast does 2hko with rocks up, since thick fat doesn't cancel out the ebelt boost). Honestly this set is probably the best one if you wanna use emboar in ou.

Emboar @ Leftovers
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def OR 252 HP / 120 Attack / 140 def
Impish/Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Protect / Sucker Punch

This set leans fully into the defensive utility emboar brings to the table and also the fact that burn is frankly, broken in oras. first spread maxes out physical bulk, while the ladder gives it enough power to 2hko physically defensive clefable, dettering it from switching into wisp. Spdef investment also might work to help with serperior, but I haven't looked at any calcs yet so I can't say for sure.


Emboar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Head Smash / Will-O-Wisp / Toxic

Finally, I do think scarf also could work. Decent speed tier and wild charge puts a big dent into manaphy. Wisp and Toxic are really just tech options since the 3 move coverage of Flare blitz Superpower and Wild Charge will get the job done. Also being able to status something you can't ohko could potentially save you.
 
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more of a "fun" option so to speak but it could absolutely work tbh. Very potent stab combination backed by reckless and some nice defensive utility aganist stuff like weavile and bisharp. I'll list some sets I think could work

Emboar @ Expert Belt / Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Sucker Punch

Expert belt is by far the best option here because emboar is already naturally very threatening and doesn't need to further compromise its limited longevity with life orb or lock into a move (since while strong, neither of its stabs are something you want to lock yourself into, and banded sucker punch is a big gamble lmao.

Emboar @ Expert Belt
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 116 Atk / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Rash Nature
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Superpower
- Sucker Punch / Hidden Power Ice

Mixed also could work well because you have better longevity when your fire stab doesn't force you to commit suicide. Grass knot is also a much, much better move for hitting slowbro then wild charge is since fire blast into grass knot will 2hko with rocks up unlike 2 wild charges. Spread maxes out offensive stats while having enough speed to outrun mega venusaur (fire blast does 2hko with rocks up, since thick fat doesn't cancel out the ebelt boost). Honestly this set is probably the best one if you wanna use emboar in ou.

Emboar @ Leftovers
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def OR 252 HP / 120 Attack / 140 def
Impish/Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Protect / Sucker Punch

This set leans fully into the defensive utility emboar brings to the table and also the fact that burn is frankly, broken in oras. first spread maxes out physical bulk, while the ladder gives it enough power to 2hko physically defensive clefable, dettering it from switching into wisp. Spdef investment also might work to help with serperior, but I haven't looked at any calcs yet so I can't say for sure.


Emboar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Head Smash / Will-O-Wisp / Toxic

Finally, I do think scarf also could work. Decent speed tier and wild charge puts a big dent into manaphy. Wisp and Toxic are really just tech options since the 3 move coverage of Flare blitz Superpower and Wild Charge will get the job done. Also being able to status something you can't ohko could potentially save you.

That mixed set sounds like it has electivire-itis.

I'd be interested in Choice Band and get some wish support, especially when you face rocky helmets. Honestly, band emboar seems more maneuverable than band victini, for example.

earthquake might be worth using if you don't have wish idk
 
That mixed set sounds like it has electivire-itis.

I'd be interested in Choice Band and get some wish support, especially when you face rocky helmets. Honestly, band emboar seems more maneuverable than band victini, for example.

earthquake might be worth using if you don't have wish idk
I wouldn’t say that is the case since its much stronger due to it being much stronger and having dual stabs (and actually 2hkoing what it needs too). Wish support does sound interesting, but eq is pretty much a wasted slot, since it doesn’t hit anything it stabs can’t.
 
I wouldn’t say that is the case since its much stronger due to it being much stronger and having dual stabs (and actually 2hkoing what it needs too). Wish support does sound interesting, but eq is pretty much a wasted slot, since it doesn’t hit anything it stabs can’t.
rocky helmet is Satan tbh so I mentioned earthquake for this reason, only hits like 2 threats on the switch though such as victini, nidoking, and mega diancie

toxic/WoW and head smash are other interesting options
 
hey all this thread hasn't had much activity so I'm here to share an interesting component of a team i've been tinkering around with lately;

:xy/keldeo: :xy/thundurus: :xy/latios: :xy/garchomp: :xy/metagross-mega: :xy/bisharp:

this is the six that Garay oak brought to week 1 of this year's SPL vs MichaelderBeste2. it's a classic looking Mega Metagross bulky offense featuring big hitters in Choice Specs Keldeo as well as an offshoot pick in Assault Vest Bisharp. overall it's a great team and one that offers you the ability to pilot any matchup while retaining enough flexibility to change up the sets at the drop of a hat. vs. MDB2, Garay opted for Choice Scarf Latios as well as Bullet Punch + Earthquake Metagross however I decided to pivot and try other options. this led me to "rediscover" the potency of Life Orb and how it enables offense like no other. this epiphany of mine is part of a series that started with this team and Life Orb Thundurus. this time, my Life Orb user of choice is Latios so I'd like to discuss the interesting role of the male Eon twin in this Brave New World.

:latios:
Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Defog
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Surf

1751661613452.png


three months ago I said something rather foolish and I'd like to take back those words. Defog Latios is a Pokemon that has been growing on me for quite some time now as I've come to appreciate its talents as an offensive Defog user. this realisation came as quite a suprise to me as I used to be adamantly against using Defog in any capacity, not just on Latios. I'm still an Excadrill truther but having branched out and explored other options I've come to realise that the grass is green everywhere. anyway, back to Latios. the reason I find Latios appealing as a Defog user is that it has positive matchups vs most Stealth Rock users in the tier. setters such as Garchomp and Landorus-Therian have to run from the threat of Life Orb boosted Draco Meteor and Surf respectively while otherwise sturdy setters such as Hippowdon and Chansey can be worn down relatively easily by Surf and Psyshock respectively. this is absolutely massive especially when pairing Latios with threats like Metagross and Bisharp who are otherwise hampered by the presence of the Ground-types. despite the fact that they aren't necessarily weak to Stealth Rock, Latios aids them by getting rid of their biggest checks while also removing the pointy stones for partners such as Thundurus who also struggles against Moto Moto who easily walls it with its massive HP in conjuction with its good Special Defense.

what I like most about this is that Latios' doesn't lose any of its ability to wallbreak. the ability to keep Stealth Rock off the field vs. the Ground-types is merely additional utility aiding Latios play a more active role as opposed to the more one dimensional 'click Draco Meteor and Trick and die to Pursuit' of the Choice sets. I could go on longer about the positive traits of Latios but in short, Draco Meteor is a crazy move and Ground-types run from the blue dragon.

I hope this inspires some of you to give a second look at Latios and find new ways to breath life into him.
shoutout to KlefkiHolder once again for opening my eyes

1751662843840.png
 
hey all this thread hasn't had much activity so I'm here to share an interesting component of a team i've been tinkering around with lately;

:xy/keldeo: :xy/thundurus: :xy/latios: :xy/garchomp: :xy/metagross-mega: :xy/bisharp:

this is the six that Garay oak brought to week 1 of this year's SPL vs MichaelderBeste2. it's a classic looking Mega Metagross bulky offense featuring big hitters in Choice Specs Keldeo as well as an offshoot pick in Assault Vest Bisharp. overall it's a great team and one that offers you the ability to pilot any matchup while retaining enough flexibility to change up the sets at the drop of a hat. vs. MDB2, Garay opted for Choice Scarf Latios as well as Bullet Punch + Earthquake Metagross however I decided to pivot and try other options. this led me to "rediscover" the potency of Life Orb and how it enables offense like no other. this epiphany of mine is part of a series that started with this team and Life Orb Thundurus. this time, my Life Orb user of choice is Latios so I'd like to discuss the interesting role of the male Eon twin in this Brave New World.

:latios:
Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Defog
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Surf

View attachment 752898

three months ago I said something rather foolish and I'd like to take back those words. Defog Latios is a Pokemon that has been growing on me for quite some time now as I've come to appreciate its talents as an offensive Defog user. this realisation came as quite a suprise to me as I used to be adamantly against using Defog in any capacity, not just on Latios. I'm still an Excadrill truther but having branched out and explored other options I've come to realise that the grass is green everywhere. anyway, back to Latios. the reason I find Latios appealing as a Defog user is that it has positive matchups vs most Stealth Rock users in the tier. setters such as Garchomp and Landorus-Therian have to run from the threat of Life Orb boosted Draco Meteor and Surf respectively while otherwise sturdy setters such as Hippowdon and Chansey can be worn down relatively easily by Surf and Psyshock respectively. this is absolutely massive especially when pairing Latios with threats like Metagross and Bisharp who are otherwise hampered by the presence of the Ground-types. despite the fact that they aren't necessarily weak to Stealth Rock, Latios aids them by getting rid of their biggest checks while also removing the pointy stones for partners such as Thundurus who also struggles against Moto Moto who easily walls it with its massive HP in conjuction with its good Special Defense.

what I like most about this is that Latios' doesn't lose any of its ability to wallbreak. the ability to keep Stealth Rock off the field vs. the Ground-types is merely additional utility aiding Latios play a more active role as opposed to the more one dimensional 'click Draco Meteor and Trick and die to Pursuit' of the Choice sets. I could go on longer about the positive traits of Latios but in short, Draco Meteor is a crazy move and Ground-types run from the blue dragon.

I hope this inspires some of you to give a second look at Latios and find new ways to breath life into him.
shoutout to KlefkiHolder once again for opening my eyes

I appreciate you bringing topics to the discussion. That being said, It's time for my Skeptical Spectacles to be put on.

This team is pretty slow for an offense. Fastest mon Thundurus is just not enough in this current climate when Serperior, Weavile, Scarf Volcanion, and Alakazam are everywhere. Not to mention Lopunny is still annoying and the rare Manectric can destroy it.

Not to mention boosters like Tyranitar, Gyarados, and Volcarona. There's a reason why Scarf Latios AND triple priority (Bullet Punch + Sucker Punch + Twave) is used - because this team is always one wrong turn away from fumbling to a faster threat.

What the actual hell do you do vs. Mega Diancie? The counterplay cannot be hoping to win the speedtie. What about Volcarona after a QD? It might look like it struggles to set up, but you can definitely find opportunities like a -2 Latios or a -1 Speed Metagross. Not to mention the possibility of sreens or roost giving it more opportunities. The team's original sets (by Garay) make a lot more sense.

In general, these team archetypes fall under "Trade Offense." An archetype where one uses the high natural bulk of the mons used (everything here can take a big hit) and outdamage the opponent. These teams were a hallmark in the 2018 but went out of favor due to teams developing longevity counterplay. They are resurging because of the return of fast-paced offense. However, it is essential that you have counterplay to 1) teams with longevity and 2) teams with faster, immediate threats.

Scarf Latios is essential (with Psyshock) for Volcarona, Volcanion, and other stuff, Trick helps vs. fat. Bullet Punch and EQ are much preferrable on Metagross as they give you priority, a way to bypass contact to keep your health, and avoid the -1 speed drawback. To be clear, Defog on Latios is mainly for spikes/tspikes since the team is usually structured in a way where rocks are not a problem.

As it stands now, the team crumbles immediately under Scarf Volcanion w/ rocks up after a burn on keldeo, or Mega Alakazam with 1 correct prediction. Not to mention you can switch into Weavile exactly twice. You never really need to click Pursuit, opponent was just bad.

Even with these changes, you need 148 SpD Chomp to better the Diancie mu by being able to eat a Moonblast in a pinch situation and also checking moth.

Despite all of this, I am still very skeptical of teams like this. Frankly, I do not think they are great in the current meta. It is very easy to see how Serperior can quickly overwhelm this, or perhaps something like Amoonguss being able to sit on this indefinitely (note: pretty sure metagross is pursuit to enable Keldeo and also to be able to get past amoonguss w/ burn + pursuit). Then there's the stuff I mentioned like Mega Diancie / Mega Alakazam where in the hands of a good player they can always win this mu. Even something as simple as Calm Mind Slowbro can be a menace once Trick on Latios is removed. Team is good into players that do BO, HO, or slower offenses. It's gonna crumble against most other things, and it requires good play. Proceed with caution
 
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Well time to deliver my hottest take I have ever had about ORAS OU.

ROCKY HELMET IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ITEM IN THE TIER

There are many physical attacking threats in ou and there is not a single viable physical attacking pokemon (that I know of) that doesn't use at least one contact move. From A(zumarill) to Z(ygarde) contact moves are everywhere. However, there are only 4 pokemon that have the literal ability to punish these contact users with those pokemon being Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Volcarona, and Static Zapdos. All 4 of these pokemon heavily punish contact moves with Ferrothorn and Garchomp providing direct damage with both Iron Barbs and Rough Skin respectively, and Volcarona and Zapdos providing the 30% chance for the pokemon to be paralyzed or burned when it uses one of its contact moves. However, due to all of these pokemon being...not invincible with plenty of weaknesses, as well as only Zapdos and Volcarona having a reliable healing move, these pokemon can't help every time. This is where rocky helmet comes in. So many pokemon appreciate the oppurtunity to threaten these fast, powerful pokemon with chip damage to weaken them and make them think twice about using u-turn or going for a fake out flinch. One of the best rocky helmet users is Landorus Therian who is already a great physical hit taker thanks to amazing typing and its ability intimidate but with rocky helmet, it punishes physical attackers even further with that sweet sweet chip damage that is always appreciated in any pokemon battle. Another great rocky helmet user is Slowbro who has immense physical bulk as well as the ability regenerator so it can take physical attacks even better than Landorus T can. Even the 4 pokemon I mentioned above (except Volcarona) all appreciate the chip of rocky helmet as it makes their abilties even more punishing (I know that explanation sounds silly, but I couldn't find the right words lol). With how many scary physical threats are in ORAS OU, having the ability to punish these pokemon is very important. It may not be the most used item in the tier and not every pokemon can take advantage of it like they can with leftovers, but I believe rocky helmet provides such an important role in the tier that it wouldn't be the same without it.
 
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Well time to deliver my hottest take I have ever had about ORAS OU.

ROCKY HELMET IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ITEM IN THE TIER

There are many physical attacking threats in ou and there is not a single viable physical attacking pokemon (that I know of) that doesn't use at least one contact move. From A(zumarill) to Z(ygarde) contact moves are everywhere. However, there are only 4 pokemon that have the literal ability to punish these contact users with those pokemon being Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Volcarona, and Static Zapdos. All 4 of these pokemon heavily punish contact moves with Ferrothorn and Garchomp providing direct damage with both Iron Barbs and Rough Skin respectively, and Volcarona and Zapdos providing the 30% chance for the pokemon to be paralyzed or burned when it uses one of its contact moves. However, due to all of these pokemon being...not invincible with plenty of weaknesses, as well as only Zapdos and Volcarona having a reliable healing move, these pokemon can't help every time. This is where rocky helmet comes in. So many pokemon appreciate the oppurtunity to threaten these fast, powerful pokemon with chip damage to weaken them and make them think twice about using u-turn or going for a fake out flinch. One of the best rocky helmet users is Landorus Therian who is already a great physical hit taker thanks to amazing typing and its ability intimidate but with rocky helmet, it punishes physical attackers even further with that sweet sweet chip damage that is always appreciated in any pokemon battle. Another great rocky helmet user is Slowbro who has immense physical bulk as well as the ability regenerator so it can take physical attacks even better than Landorus T can. Even the 4 pokemon I mentioned above (except Volcarona) all appreciate the chip of rocky helmet as it makes their abilties even more punishing (I know that explanation sounds silly, but I couldn't find the right words lol). With how many scary physical threats are in ORAS OU, having the ability to punish these pokemon is very important. It may not be the most used item in the tier and not every pokemon can take advantage of it like they can with leftovers, but I believe rocky helmet provides such an important role in the tier that it wouldn't be the same without it.
This is especially true considering Mega Metagross is currently the apex predator of the tier, for its ability Tough Claws heavily incentivizes contact moves as you all know. The relatively new Power-Up Punch set's two low base power options (PuP itself and Bullet Punch) are too free when the opponent can't punish contact. TankChomp/Skarmory/Ferrothorn/Zapdos/Helmet Thundurus/Landorus/Slowbro are appreciated in this MU, despite being outsped (except for Thund) and severely injured after a boost if you pack the right Elemental Punch coverage (and that's also why the set is so dangerous), are still a nice-to-have compared to, say, Leftovers. Metagross is a defensive power house and any chip that puts it into KO range can be a game-saver. It just feels great to "sack" a TankChomp into 2HKO-range Bullet Punch.

Because of this, contactless physical attacks feel very good to click. The main beneficiary of this is another top predator, Weavile, with Icicle Crash and less commonly Beat Up. Other moves like Psycho Cut and Earthquake, aren't as spammable due to having more obvious downsides such as type immunities, but are appreciated for this property nonetheless in the context of a contact-punishing meta.
 
well what if i pair my mega metagross with some wish support and a knock off abuser (Weavile)?

i just think rocky helmet is literally satan lol, definitely top 3 items in the tier
 
Mid SPL thoughts

ORAS has shifted gears slightly. The HOs are different - they have completely dropped Volcarona by now (almost all of them are Serperior Manaphy Thundurus), which is a testament to its unreliability in high stakes / prep situations. I myself have chosen not to bring it on my HO because ... what set would I bring? Yes you can choose what to win against but inherently by that you choose what to lose against, which doesn't feel great on HO. Starting the game essentially 4 vs. 6 basically with Moth being walled + ho lead suiciding. On a different note, Taunt Serp and NP Thundurus are just much more reliable across the board and need very little or no support at all. Even if Heatran walls the Serperior, at least you paralyze it. You can taunt the Tran or the Amoonguss to bring in another sweeper without fearing Toxic or Spore. And Manaphy? Builds have gotten slow enough where Timid is back to being its best set, it just outspeeds too much, and most importantly, denies Excadrill from spinning. Also gone are the days of Aerodactly, Azelf, or Excadrill leads. Mew and Lando are just too good at both keeping rocks off and almost undeniably putting rocks up.

The fats? Also different. We've seen a huge uptick in Mega Venasaur, a trend that was started last SPL. And why? well it makes sense, it walls Thundurus, Serperior, Keldeo, and non-Psychic Manaphy all in one slot. It's incredible. You almost don't even need Chansey. I do think though we have seen much less fat and much more offense / HO in general this SPL. Though, the spike stacks are still as good as ever, but Latias + Gliscor builds specifically are not as popular, mainly because they are so weak to Weavile and Thundurus, which feel more popular than ever.

Mega Scizor, Talonflame, and Keldeo have all seen an increase in usage. Mega Scizor thrives in metagames where Thundurus is more popular than Zapdos, because it has better chances at taking over the game late game. Meanwhile, the Defog variants are also becoming more common, as running Excadrill feels more and more punishable mearly due to the rise of Thundurus and Keldeo taking advantage of it. Talonflame is a mon that is incredible vs. HO and Stall and has had high wr in SPL, esp if you count the game I was supposed to win if I didn't throw...

Mega Metagross, Rotom-Wash, and Clefable have all seen a decline in usage. Mega Metagross thrives vs. teams with speed control Weavile or Mega Alakazam, but when the speed controls are Thundurus and Serperior, it has a much harder time setting up a Pup sweep w/ paralysis all over the place. Rotom-W and Clefable have also fallen a bit due to similar circumstances - the meta is just too fast paced and strong for them to be effective. What is Clefable doing into HO? At best it is taking one hit and replying with Moonblast, which is pretty weak. Meanwhile Rotom-W doesn't do much either, its best bet being burning Bisharp/Scizor if its faster. I probably would never run slow Rotom in this meta
 
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Gonna bump this thread to ask: how's everyone feeling about the current metagame? Spl felt like games were fine, but would like to hear from people who have been playing tournaments and/or participated in spl
 
I honestly believe this metagame is the most entertaining fairy gen by far, and it is contention for best OU metagame with the holy grail of older gens. Building feels great, playing it feels great with bo1 being very exciting and if you have the balls to pull off some niche stuff it has a nice payoff, an in bo3 it is super consistent.

The only caveat that it has is the feeling that some mons are just a bit too good without having any restrictions: Weavile makes progress a little bit too easily with just using a pivot move, only being held back by the fact it is rocks weak. Volcarona despite the fact it is super rocks weak and requires support it is probably the most unfair wincon in the tier tbh, it is just very annoying and rather unhealthy having to pray to not face the X variant of volcarona that can mess you up (sub swarm, hidden power of very different types, safeguard if you REALLY wanna be that guy)

Manaphy is honestly pretty insane but given this mon has no natural way to boost its speed it is more polarizing than anything, but it does condition bulky teams a lot with you either forcing a blob (you get owned by sub tail glow) or forcing you to pick more offensive picks all the time (helps that Serp is insanely good all the time). The second point isnt a problem to me but idk if any very bulky team aficionado would have something to say about it.

Serp is honestly the most bullshit of the bunch lowkey, and it is mainly cause it is extremely good at using really busted paralysis mechanics. This gen has the unfortunate situation that full paras has a whopping 50% 25% chance of happening (corrected by Bulbapedia), and Serp has with glare essentially a free kill button vs all teams pretty much, only really zapdos kind of stops it and it requires important spdef investment for it (Rotom-Heat is rather mid unfortunately, I have tried it...). So yeah, if you dont have something to kill Serp immediately it is kamikaze-ing with something and you will give it too much leeway.


But these are more caveats than anything, it doesnt help the pull of actual picks vs some of these are pretty limited, but even then there is an impressive amount of variety. Id give a solid 8/10 It is inviting, it keeps going through many different cycles, whats not to love.
 
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While I haven't played in SPL, I have been fairly active within the tournament scene, playing whenever I get the opportunity to. Frequently building in this tier also opens my vision in terms of knowing what I need to pick in my team in order to not lose to certain threats, it's like a mental checklist regarding what is needed. With this, I want to discuss and share my thoughts about the current metagame, along with opinions from fellow companions who are also involved/spectating ORAS OU in tournaments.

Some heads up regarding what I'm about to type is that everything below is obviously just opinions from various different players and at various different skill levels which inevitably means opinions will likely clash and not all will agree with the reader's own feelings which is completely understandable. Although, having multiple voices paints a strong overall picture which is handy in discussions regarding the overall metagame. I asked everyone the same question, "How do you feel about the current ORAS metagame?" and the responses are as follows.

Community input - fellow peers

An individual stated that the meta is slowly shifting towards the direction of the SM metagame in the sense that the same "3" cores keep showing up, Mega Metagross teams, Sand and CM Keldeo teams. Can I personally agree with this? No, but I suppose it is an interesting perspective. Multiple users noted that there has been a rise in Mew, especially the bulky Stealth Rocks variant which is something I can agree with, Mew's usage has skyrocketed recently and this was especially evident in SPL. People have also mentioned that Thundurus, Serperior and bulky Manaphy have seen a rise in usage which is also largely true, but I believe that Serperior's usage has always been high in the recent meta. Following the rise in bulky Manaphy, we also see an increase use in the move Psychic and for a good reason, to hit Mega Venusaur, this toad's usage popped off in recent meta due to its ability to check the bulky waters, grass types and various other things whilst also being a potent damage dealer thanks to the move Growth/running an offensive nature in Modest. A user said that there has been a small rise in Kyurem Black appearances, especially the Assault Vest variant which is a valid observation, people have been using AV as a means to blanket check all sorts of special attackers. Lastly, there were complaints about Paralysis and the move Scald, both are reasonable cries since both of these are super powerful in ORAS. Although, the general consensus was that the tier is fun, enjoyable and many mons are usable.

Community input - ORAS discord

All the responses I received in the ORAS discord server leaned towards the enjoyable tier judgement, from individuals who only ladder to individuals who participate within the tournament scene. Generally, all of them also liked how a lot of mons and playstyles are viable. The newer players openly mentioned how the tier felt refreshing to play in but hazard control is a much more arduous task compared to other fairy gens which is a totally fair opinion, even experienced players know the struggle of fitting removal on teams due to the lack of viable options, some are even willing to forego removal completely, especially seen on Hyper Offense and Spikestack structures. Following from the hazard control issue, it was also stated that this made hazards seem awfully more dangerous. Other beginners have mentioned that they appreciated how diverse the Mega evolution pool was and how a large portion of them are viable, even if they're super niche. These users have also pointed out that there's a rise in Choice Specs Keldeo which is another thing that I can agree on. Another interesting opinion was how the mons in the tier feel well balanced in the sense that they can play both an offensive and a defensive role, I presume what they were hinting at was sets such as Rest Talk Keld which invests in bulk for further longevity, this is especially present on teams that uses Keld as their sole Ice/Dark resist or uses it as a means to pseudo absorb statuses. The more experienced player called out the rise in Mew and Mega Scizor, the former being flexible enough to run various sets such as Stealth Rocks, Nasty Plot, Suicide Lead, Stallbreaker and even Defogger. Mew's fantastic stat distribution (100 across the board) means it can outspeed various mons that the slower bulky Psychics types can't do with the exception of Cresselia who is also relatively fast for a bulky mon, although Cresselia is far more passive and really only has 2 viable sets, Rocky Helmet and Choice Scarf even though scarf is rarely seen. The latter can boast either a potent Swords Dance set or a Defog set, SD is particularly threatening in the current metagame due to M-Scizor's amazing bulk and having access to a reliable recovery in Roost, there has also been a reduced usage in the likes of Volcanion, Zapdos etc who were previously great counterplay for M-Scizor, many teams nowadays rely on Scald burning or Fire type moves from mons who do not resist boosted Bullet Punch such as Dragonite, Serperior, Clefable etc. Defog M-Scizor is a good enough removal thanks to Roost and U-Turn which allows it to manoeuvre around issues it may face throughout the game. To no one surprise, users have mentioned their dislike for Paralysis and Scald again, which is a common theme. Summarising this up, as aforementioned, the current metagame is enjoyable thanks to varying viable options to play with.

Personal takes

The way I've written notes in preparation for this discussion means that sometimes I mention something related to Serperior for example, at the start but then after a load of other points, I recall something about Serp again and just note it below all the other stuff... which is not ideal so I may be talking about the same mon but at different points of the writing but rest assured, I will explicitly word everything out.

I believe that the meta is practically perfect at where we currently stand, nothing is incredibly broken and even niche mons see screentime which is something I really enjoy seeing and especially teambuilding with if they happen to be the right pick. In terms of playstyles, I think that Fat/Offense are the go to playstyles at the moment, they're both powerful and tend to have some sort of plan B if things go south meaning that with some outplaying and careful resource management, you can turn the tables in your favour. Hyper Offense is probably the only playstyle that has significantly tanked, I am aware that we still see HO every now and then but in comparison to before, it has definitely decreased. This is likely a result to the increase of counterplay such as Scarfers, Sand Rush Excadrill, Priority, Taunt and such. This is not to say that HO is straight up bad because it isn't, it is still super effective against the right opponent. Sand is still the strongest playstyle in my opinion, both offensive sands and bulkier defensive sands, Sand Rush Drill is just such an amazing tool in practically every kind of match up, it can also run a ton of moves as the 4th move, Stealth Rocks (on offensive sands), Rock Slide for flyings, Toxic for bulky mons like Slowbro, Hippowdon and Swords Dance to become an even more potent STAB abuser under sand.

Something that I've noticed with Serperior, asides from it being a crazy strong mon in the current meta, is that it is slowly reverting to Hidden Power Fire again, at least in a couple of my own builds, I've seen HP Fire take the spot as I have other mons who can reliably tackle mons that HP Rock Serp hits. With the rise in M-Scizor, Bisharp etc, I'm sure HP Fire will just continue to rise. Another thing that I've observed with Serp is that Lum/Helm/Lefties is often more handy nowadays over Chesto which saw a spike in use last year, with the increase of Thundy, Lum has been proven useful as a countermeasure to it along with being able to switch into something like Will-O-Wisp once which is also neat. Helmet is just a great item in general, I personally believe that some form of contact is mandatory on every team if feasible, being able to punish Spin from Drill, attacks from the likes of M-Metagross and just a ton of other scenarios seeing Helmet being so handy. There isn't much to say about Lefties asides from it being a good item if you don't need Lum/Helm. With these shifts, we see Serp running Synthesis as the recovery over Rest when it was paired with Chesto.

Now, I'll discuss the offensive water types of this tier. We see Keld now slowly switching back to running Specs and for a good reason, immediate power without the need for Calm Mind means that you ruin mons who typically switch into Keld such as Clefable, Serperior who is forced to recover or drops to Focus Blast, Slowbro with Scald burn, Tornadus Therian who is forced to play mind games with Hurricane/U-Turn especially when it is burnt and rocks being up and what not. We have also seen Rest Talk on Specs, although in general, Rest Talk Keld has seen an increased use too, being able to check stuff like Weavile/BandTar/Dark types more comfortably throughout the game is handy. This also means that some Rest Talk Keld's have been running bulk in their EVs which as a result, makes them run Modest to cover for the missing SpA EVs. Manaphy is still as reliable and as annoying as ever, although we see an increase in Stallbreaker sets i.e. Rain Dance/Substitute with Scald/Surf + Psychic as the damaging moves. As aforementioned, Scald is pretty much broken if you can consistently burn and Psychic is present to stomp on M-Venu. Two interesting changes is the rise in Rotom-Wash and the fall of Volcanion, people have probably realised how frustrating it is to switch into Rotom's Wisp/T-Wave and the constant Pain Split spam. Also, the occasional Scarf that throws users off, you can even invest in SpA to 2HKO incoming Clefables (happened to me and it caught me off guard). I'm assuming that the drop in Volcanion usage is thanks to the combination of it being prone to hazards with no reliable recovery and electrics/ground types being so omnipresent in modern ORAS.

Individuals have also been running more SpDef orientated ground types which further messes up Volcanion and this nicely follows up on my next point which is the speaking in regards to Ground types such as SpDef Landorus Therian and mainly SpDef Garchomp. SpDef Lando is far from common at that and it picks between the classic Careful nature and Assault Vest, it is rather annoying when you don't suspect it but if you do any sort of damage to it then the calc can easily inform you of this. Now, SpDef Chomp, this has been the most popular set at the moment (eclipsing the usual Lum SD variant), alongside the standard TankChomp. With Lefties, this thing is an unkillable monster (slightly exaggerated), it is super effective at trading damage with stuff like Clefable, Zapdos, Thundy, Slowbro (granted no burn) and such. It can even choose to run Protect for scouting and extra recovery from Lefties. There is also SpDef Hippowdon although we have seen this in previous years.

Onto the steel types, Bisharp does not run Assault Vest anymore, people have realised that it is not really THAT effective at sponging special hits as initially claimed, Bisharp is also usually the Weavile switch so you end up losing AV early in the game anyways. Black Glasses is the preferred item for raw damage as AV felt weak to begin with, Lum is the other option for Bisharp, being able to defer statuses which is convenient. As mentioned before, M-Scizor has risen in usage, both the SD and Defog sets are splendid tools for different purposes. We saw SD M-Scizor sweep in SPL which is something to take note of, people don't exactly have a reliable M-Scizor counterplay (it has fallen) which makes this set so potent as one SD is usually all it takes to clean up the opponent. Defog allows M-Scizor to function as a strong removal option, thanks to Roost and U-Turn, it's also not weak to stuff like Weavile which the other two (Drill + Zapdos) are prone to, being a pseudo Dark resist is something that many teams seek for nowadays and M-Scizor can fulfil that slot. M-Metagross has fallen in usage, that doesn't mean that it's bad, no, it is still very powerful but with the relentless amount of contact, statuses and such, M-Metagross struggles to thrive as much as it did. I actually believe that we should revert back to AOA M-Metagross i.e. run something along the lines of Bullet Punch/Meteor Mash, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, Earthquake/Hammer Arm because this set feels so much more threatening against the current metagame, it might struggle with Slowbro but you have 5 other slots in your team to figure that out whilst this set handles all other standard M-Metagross check better. M-Metagross falling in usage also means that there's no single "ruling" mega now and the viable options are still vast.

In terms of the flying types, the biggest change (probably) that we've seen is the increased appearance of Talonflame, especially SpDef variants that run Taunt + Wisp to demolish Stall/Fat structures. That isn't to say that offensive Talon isn't good because the combination of Flare Blitz + Brave Bird is still very dangerous, especially if it gets a Swords Dance off. Between the two electrics, we see that Thundy has a tad bit more usage than Zapdos recently, people have realised that Thundy is more than just a T-Wave bot, you can run Taunt on Offense to shut down hazards/set up, Knock Off > Focus Miss for incredible utility, U-Turn for a few of the snarky Ground types, Nasty Plot + T-Wave is also something we see more now as you can still spread T-Wave whilst Thunderbolt + HP Ice hits all your regular targets fine, even more so after pulling off a NP. Although, this change is also why something like M-Scizor is more deadly now. Something that I've liked about the recent Zapdos' is that people are experimenting and using offensive Zapdos more which is great, I love this set and catches a ton of players out whilst being a presentable threat against many teams, it also has reliable recovery in Roost + Static for fishing which is something that Thundy doesn't have access to.

I want to bundle the 2 Psychics type that I want to speak on together so the final miscellaneous paragraph can be shorter. First being Mew, of course, this mon has skyrocketed in usage in both side tours and SPL. Having a great stat distribution + movepool are key pointers to this, the set that I've enjoyed the most is its Stealth Rocks set, paired with Wisp to mess up common switch ins and Volt Switch to pivot out of anything that tries to abuse the passiveness that Mew gives, such as against the likes of Manaphy. That said, other sets have also been good/solid, such as Nasty Plot variants which are bulky whilst giving Mew some strong offensive presence, Lead Mew still exists and it's one of the few good lead options, other sets such as Defog and Stallbreaker are things that I have not seen much use of or experimented with myself. The other psychic type in question is the fall of Mega Gardevoir, still a super potent Wallbreaker and even Stallbreaker but is struggling to keep up with the current fast paced teams/the reliant use of Focus Miss. Mega Alakazam is also a victim of Focus Miss but it makes up with its incredible speed tier which is something that M-Gard can't afford. I'm actually tailing off to speak about M-Zam... but this mon also has Magic Guard pre-mega to avoid chip from hazards and Trace to potentially copy Regenerator from Torn-T for extra recovery which are both things that M-Gard is unable to do.

Next is everything else, M-Venu used to run Growth + Synthesis on its moveset for power and reliable recovery respectively but nowadays, we see some M-Venu forego one of those two aforementioned moves in favour for HP Fire/Knock Off/even Sleep Powder in some less common cases. These are all justifiable and it's ultimately up to the builder and whoever is using the team. Something on the rise is the presence of Stealth Rocks Drill, this is becoming more common on teams who use Drill as a role compression mon or on sand offense who tend to slap an Air Balloon on it. I'm personally against the idea of role compression Drill as to me, it often feels like it's doing too much and you have to pick to either get hazards up or remove them from your side, this can be especially tricky when the opposing rocker is something that threatens Drill out, such as Chomp, Hippo or Lando. Another increase in usage is Specs Kyurem Black, this set is a monster, people rarely expect it and it ends up punishing them very hard, you can even run HP Fire if you really despite those x4 Fire weak mons (Ferro/M-Scizor). Life Orb Clefable has also risen in usage, both 3A and Calm Mind which makes Clef a potent threat on bulkier teams. I also believe that there's a strong consideration for Earthquake as Mega Gyarados' 4th move now due to the increase in Keld/Rotom-W showing, along with this is the overflowing abundance of contact which EQ allows M-Gyara to finish them off without the need for extra self chip. On the topic of M-Gyara, I think that Taunt DD is a lot worse compared to Sub DD, this is also applicable to Taunt CM Keld and Sub CM Keld, Scald/Steam and the shift in need to attack safely makes Sub more appealing in many cases, although Taunt is still a strong option to shut down Fat/Stall. Some more niche changes would be the increased appearance of Celebi, Victini, Hydreigon and such (I picked the three I liked the most) and mons like Scolipede, Crawdaunt etc falling off. These are all UU-esque mons with OU usage due to some roles that only they can fulfil via role compression/tools that OU mons don't explicitly have, for example Stealth Rocks/Nasty Plot Celebi and T-Wave + Roost bulky Hydreigon.

I think this sums up everything I currently have in mind, I may have missed some things which is likely expected as I'm not perfect. If there are grammar issues then I apologise because I'm not proof-reading this post as it's significantly longer than any of my other posts. To conclude, the direction of the current ORAS OU metagame is admirable and it's the fairy gen that I enjoy the most, the mechanics, teambuilding and community.
 
Gonna bump this thread to ask: how's everyone feeling about the current metagame? Spl felt like games were fine, but would like to hear from people who have been playing tournaments and/or participated in spl
Everything is great. The room and tools to find the answers to your problems are always present and many different players/groups of collaborators are able to exist and thrive playing in vastly different styles.

It is fun for me as someone who has been around since Gengar and Kang was allowed to see the cyclical nature of things/trends, especially as newer players come in and rediscover a lot of older answers, and create their own new twists and rules as well.

I wouldn't change a thing.
 
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