-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Flamer
- Start date
- Status
I tested out sash PuP breloom the other day. Turns out it's reeeeeeal bad. You're better off just sporing if they're gonna switch, and then SDing after... However force palm was kinda cool. That did big damage
I did not meant PuP, Spore Punch loom consists in putting something to sleep and abuse Focus Punch. It is damn hilarious lol
Oh Ik what you meant I was just mentioning that haha. I've never had too much success with focus punch but that's just cause I think it's a bad move but to each their own
So this thread is going to go through a repurposing of sorts. You may have noticed I closed down the Rain thread, as this will be the place to discuss playstyles from now on. For example, if you notice Ludicolo or whatever is good on Rain, post it here. If you want to talk about Diggersby coverage moves or whatever, do it here. After the results of the suspect, if anything gets banned talk about the post suspect meta here. This is also the place to discuss trends in the metagame ie usage stats and things getting better or worse. And yes, something can get better or worse without moving a rank in the VR ;)
The NP threads in lower tiers are good examples of the kind of discussion I want to see here, so a quick skim through those threads might be a good idea. Continue with your various discussions
The NP threads in lower tiers are good examples of the kind of discussion I want to see here, so a quick skim through those threads might be a good idea. Continue with your various discussions
So guys, what do you all thing volcanion's effect on the metagame will be like? It seems like it'll be an amazing all around check to azumarill which is quite nice. Otherwise though I feel it'll have a similar role as heatran, only physically defensive rather than specially defensive and (obviously) checking different Pokemon
Let's wait till it's actually released. Theorymon doesnt do anyone too much good.
Lets not be hasty here, we have no idea of the outcome of the suspect test and this isnt the place for discussing tiering processes. Wait a week or so and youll have free reign to discuss however you please
im talking about the suspect ladder
I'm aware of that, still doesnt mean this is the place to discuss this. The results are up in the air at the moment and this isnt the spot to discuss stuff that might happen. Those were the rules established when this thread was made and I plan to keep it that way unless told otherwise.
So even though the Shadow Tag ban won't shake things up a ton, we're also going to talk about the post suspect meta here. There's bound to be a whole bunch of Goth bait out there the just became relevant again. Discuss and enjoy, and expect to see some stuff from myself at some point ;)
So I've been habitually experimenting with Occa Berry BPScizor passing +2 boosts to one of two/three recepients. Mainly I used Mega-Metagross but have switched between M-Pinsir/Metagross and Lopunny to ensure I can make the most out of this strategy by testing all of the strongest Mega Evolutions.
My different varients of this build have AVAzumarill and different Landorus-t sets should I find my Mega cannot endure my opponents' next attack, can receive the boost and proceed to passing successfully; Azumarill almost always benefits from the boosts because it has great type-synergy with Azu. Landorus/Azumarill offers physical/special coverage overall and work well alongside SDScizor for a vairous number of reasons, allowing me to pass between either two or the mega of my choosing.
My different varients of this build have AVAzumarill and different Landorus-t sets should I find my Mega cannot endure my opponents' next attack, can receive the boost and proceed to passing successfully; Azumarill almost always benefits from the boosts because it has great type-synergy with Azu. Landorus/Azumarill offers physical/special coverage overall and work well alongside SDScizor for a vairous number of reasons, allowing me to pass between either two or the mega of my choosing.
Landorus-Therian @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
Scizor @ Occa Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 SpD
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Baton Pass
- Roost / Defog (Defog if I'm using Pinsir-M or sometimes I pair it with Taunt + Defog Mew so I can retain healing purposes)
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
Scizor @ Occa Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 SpD
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Baton Pass
- Roost / Defog (Defog if I'm using Pinsir-M or sometimes I pair it with Taunt + Defog Mew so I can retain healing purposes)
Last edited:
I have been playing around with a similar (but much more gimmicky) strat of scizor bston passing iron defense boosts to boosters. The premise is 'take 4 mons that all have different matchups, stack hazards, pass the defense boosts, and calm mind away'
It is very reminiscent of typical, gimmicky quick-pass style, but it has worked surprisingly well.
By different matchups, I mean in terms of what scenarios they are outright useless in:
2 attacks mega slowbro can dominate, unless the opposing team has toxic.
Magic guard clef is great if you don't want to worry about status nor do you want garchomp to dragon-tail you away
Espeon matches up well against almost any passive strat given magic bounce, and it is fast in case that is valuable in that situation. stored power is already at bp100 after a couple of boosts iirc.
I thought that it was an interesting idea. Healing wish support on the side allows you to potentially go more than once, screens are nice for setup, etc.. Since it is effectively taking advantage of Teambuilding holes more than anything, it can be achetypically matchup-related, but it is fun! It is outright an inferior scolipass, but it is also less prepared for so ymmv
Ok guys so it's official - mega Sableye is not banned and shadow tag is. How will this affect the meta?
I think the most obvious change is to ABR stall, and really stall as a whole, now struggling to beat common stallbreakers. Mons such as manaphy or heatran were totally relied on being beaten by goth on that team, so my question to you all is do you think stall usage will either go down or will it adapt?
I think the most obvious change is to ABR stall, and really stall as a whole, now struggling to beat common stallbreakers. Mons such as manaphy or heatran were totally relied on being beaten by goth on that team, so my question to you all is do you think stall usage will either go down or will it adapt?
I've never used goth in any of my stall teams and i've peaked at 1800 several times with several different teams. Got reqs fairly easily with a decent w/l using m-gyara stall. People will adapt and move on finding other ways to get around their problems, i've been using sap sipper azu for months as my manaphy counter and it works pretty fine. Plenty of good mons out there that will fill teamslots on stall still
Well, as always it will adapt. As it is now, I've been experimenting with VenuQuag Stall as of recent and still have Ferrothorn on other builds. The prevalence of Sableye is about the same as it was with about 3/4 of stall teams running it, but Megas: Latias, Altairia, Charizard-X, Venusaur, and Slowbro aren't to be forgotten and are still very effective. I think the current problem is dealing with all the stall-breakers, which cannot all be covered on the same team, but hey Semi-Stall has risen good enough. Stall will adapt even if we need shed shell to beat DianZone and ManaZone builds.
there aren't gonna be any insane changes, really.
i saw gothitelle a bit more since gothstall became popular, but it (goth on non-stall builds) wasn't something huge by any means in my experience. wobbuffet, on the other hand, had virtually no usage. i had quite a bit of experience with the thing, and those that know me know i obsess over it, but the truth is it was also pretty obnoxious.
wobbuffet was nearly guaranteed 1 kill per game when running custap + destiny bond, not to mention the ability to pick stuff off with counter / mirror coat, using encore to give yourself a huge momentum boost (usually used to set up with something like bd azu), and there was the whole speedy tickle set that could easily pick off (or lead to picking off) annoying fat things. WECAMEASROMANS does a fantastic job of showing that in this replay @ ~turn 10.
however, this isn't to say wob was nearly as big of a problem as gothitelle. wobbuffet can get worn down extremely easily between switching into things, hazards, toxic / wisp damage, etc.. on the topic of hazards, damage-inflicting status, and other types of residual damage, these things can really ruin wobbuffet's field day. not only do they whittle wob down, but they can also ruin its chances of custap dbond. being just barely out of custap range due to these things just plain sucks; for example, when you're whittled down a bit and at ~27% or so due to hazards & your wob will get killed by whatever is in front of it. you have 2 options here really: sac it, or save it in hopes of using that custap dbond later (hazard damage getting you into range). the latter option is very risky, however. not only do you have to switch something in to hazards + whatever hit would've killed wob, which your most optimal switch-in might not 100% appreciate in certain situations, but you also have to hope everything works out properly with wob from this point on. not only do you have to worry about your opponent getting some spikes or sand or whatever up, but to bring wob in, you're almost gonna have to sac something here. this leads to a fork in the road: do you sac something to get a kill with wob and have it die, or do you keep that something and sac wob (possibly even thinking about this at the beginning of this hypothetical and sac'ing it back then)?
overall this is something really minor, but between this and wobbuffet's lack of longevity, you aren't always guaranteed a kill, let alone 2. with custap dbond, you have a very high chance of killing something, but it's definitely not concrete. on top of all this, wobbuffet v. anything that doesn't carry 4 attacks of the same category (physical / special) or something choice-locked. clicking encore on a mixed attacker, for example, can lead to you taking big damage; so while you may be able to kill that something off with counter / mirror coat, you've just taken damage from two hits. considering the general power creep we've seen in both x/y and oras (yes it's a sensational term), most of the time this won't be appreciated. this basically neuters wob for future use. not to mention if you get screwed over by a low roll, barely putting you out of custap range leading to the whole scenario i described above.
to summarize all this, wobbuffet was definitely overlooked. the thing had the ability to act as an excellent support pokemon for offensive teams (specifically those carrying amazing set-up sweepers like bd azumarill) thanks to encore, and it could eliminate threats with custap destiny bond, counter / mirror coat, and tickle + encore (to an extent). however, it was very inconsistent and easily worn down, putting you in a major risk v. reward scenario in the teambuilder alone. it would've been really cool to see this thing used to its fullest potential in tour play, but owell :(
that's my little post-ban rambling on wobbuffet based on my bit of experience with it. kinda pointless now i guess lol~
i saw gothitelle a bit more since gothstall became popular, but it (goth on non-stall builds) wasn't something huge by any means in my experience. wobbuffet, on the other hand, had virtually no usage. i had quite a bit of experience with the thing, and those that know me know i obsess over it, but the truth is it was also pretty obnoxious.
wobbuffet was nearly guaranteed 1 kill per game when running custap + destiny bond, not to mention the ability to pick stuff off with counter / mirror coat, using encore to give yourself a huge momentum boost (usually used to set up with something like bd azu), and there was the whole speedy tickle set that could easily pick off (or lead to picking off) annoying fat things. WECAMEASROMANS does a fantastic job of showing that in this replay @ ~turn 10.
however, this isn't to say wob was nearly as big of a problem as gothitelle. wobbuffet can get worn down extremely easily between switching into things, hazards, toxic / wisp damage, etc.. on the topic of hazards, damage-inflicting status, and other types of residual damage, these things can really ruin wobbuffet's field day. not only do they whittle wob down, but they can also ruin its chances of custap dbond. being just barely out of custap range due to these things just plain sucks; for example, when you're whittled down a bit and at ~27% or so due to hazards & your wob will get killed by whatever is in front of it. you have 2 options here really: sac it, or save it in hopes of using that custap dbond later (hazard damage getting you into range). the latter option is very risky, however. not only do you have to switch something in to hazards + whatever hit would've killed wob, which your most optimal switch-in might not 100% appreciate in certain situations, but you also have to hope everything works out properly with wob from this point on. not only do you have to worry about your opponent getting some spikes or sand or whatever up, but to bring wob in, you're almost gonna have to sac something here. this leads to a fork in the road: do you sac something to get a kill with wob and have it die, or do you keep that something and sac wob (possibly even thinking about this at the beginning of this hypothetical and sac'ing it back then)?
overall this is something really minor, but between this and wobbuffet's lack of longevity, you aren't always guaranteed a kill, let alone 2. with custap dbond, you have a very high chance of killing something, but it's definitely not concrete. on top of all this, wobbuffet v. anything that doesn't carry 4 attacks of the same category (physical / special) or something choice-locked. clicking encore on a mixed attacker, for example, can lead to you taking big damage; so while you may be able to kill that something off with counter / mirror coat, you've just taken damage from two hits. considering the general power creep we've seen in both x/y and oras (yes it's a sensational term), most of the time this won't be appreciated. this basically neuters wob for future use. not to mention if you get screwed over by a low roll, barely putting you out of custap range leading to the whole scenario i described above.
to summarize all this, wobbuffet was definitely overlooked. the thing had the ability to act as an excellent support pokemon for offensive teams (specifically those carrying amazing set-up sweepers like bd azumarill) thanks to encore, and it could eliminate threats with custap destiny bond, counter / mirror coat, and tickle + encore (to an extent). however, it was very inconsistent and easily worn down, putting you in a major risk v. reward scenario in the teambuilder alone. it would've been really cool to see this thing used to its fullest potential in tour play, but owell :(
that's my little post-ban rambling on wobbuffet based on my bit of experience with it. kinda pointless now i guess lol~
tbh full stall will probably decrease a lot. Semistall builds and those "balanced" builds which are really just hyperstall seem much more consistent now, and with wincons no longer fearing Goth it should be noticably easier for them to thrive. In addition, having those solid wincons like Curse Gastro or CM [insert one of the trillion CM users here] and having backup attackers like talon which you only tend to see on semi/hyper builds just seem far more necessary than they were in the Gothitelle meta due to Gothitelle not being the wincon v.s. opposing stall and opposing wincons anymore.
I think that the real test for all variants of stall is gonna be seeing how it handles opposing stall and semistall. I wouldn't be all that surprised if we end up seeing a lot more CM wars than brfore due to, y'know, them not just being stopped by switching Goth in. I think being able to win that war is going to be a much more pivotal part of teambuilding for stall without Goth around to act as a catch-all.
Anywyay, we have lost a brave soldier. Goodbye Wobbuffet; may you rest in peace.
I think that the real test for all variants of stall is gonna be seeing how it handles opposing stall and semistall. I wouldn't be all that surprised if we end up seeing a lot more CM wars than brfore due to, y'know, them not just being stopped by switching Goth in. I think being able to win that war is going to be a much more pivotal part of teambuilding for stall without Goth around to act as a catch-all.
Anywyay, we have lost a brave soldier. Goodbye Wobbuffet; may you rest in peace.
Any discussion on the so-called "Wonder Trio" (Sab/Dug/Shed)? Having only lost Goth the team hasn't changed much. While Dugtrio can't be customized for your team's needs it still traps important targets like (going down the rank list) CharX (with Rock Tomb), Bisharp, Diancie, Excadrill, Heatran (the big one), Hoopa, Manectric, Tyranitar, Magnezone, and Raikou. While a few of these targets don't mean much to stall anyways just getting rid of them takes a lot of pressure off your walls.
did the team even ever use goth other than the initial stages of the team? o-o I don't think anything changed for that team other than the effectiveness increasing since now there is no goth to randomly come in and just cockblock you.
edit - abr and cleaner should make a combined rmt on that stupid sabgoth stall so that it can remain in our archives forever as the cancer yet extremely insanely successful team of our society
Last edited:
I don't think stall particularly struggles with DianZone, since it has a lot of solid answers with popular mons like Chansey, Quag, Amoong, MVenus, etc -- if steel types are your only primary answer to Diancie I can see the difficulty. Manaphy on the other hand remains more difficult because of its versatility in choosing how it opts to dismantle stall, as it can very easily run a plethora of lure sets to break defensive cores aside TG+RD.
Not to mention Dutrio traps both Diancie and Magnazone. As for Manaphy, Shedinja walls most variants (although if it's the rare hp fire then your entire team is up shit creek :()
It has a lot of lure as I said, only fool proof answer that really exploits Manaphy is Kyu-B (but he's not exactly found in stall), well... Manaphy is S rank for a reason, and its ability to play around with its checks is part of that strength. Its typing, stats, and movepool make it an easy fit for many offensive cores that it is never particularly a hit or miss choice.
That said... there are other stall teams that don't necessarily involve Shednija... especially ones that aren't as vulnerable to DianZone, Manaphy will just remain problematic period. You also have Togekiss which can shit on those teams if you insist on wondertrio, that no longer has to worry about Goth TW/Trick scarf tactics.
Last edited:
- Status