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So I have an obscure question - what coverage is best for SD Breloom under Trick Room? I'll hide the following discussion so there's not a huge post clogging up this thread, but it explains many of the details I'm concerned about - so please read them over if you're critical of the idea of Breloom on TR in general or what the different options I'm considering can be used for. Also, please quote the post when you respond so it's flagged up as an alert.

I like Breloom on my TR team because it's strongly anti-Bisharp, who most Trick Room mons don't like (ghosts and psychics get hit by the dark STABs, fairies get hit by the steel STAB, porygon2 gets its Eviolite knocked off), it's anti-subs, sashes and some sturdies (Donphan mainly, when it occasionally crops up on the ladder) and on top of that it has priority with Mach Punch out of TR - which if you're opponent is stupid enough to allow you to get to +4 or +6 with can be a nice win con.

Anyway, currently I'm running Natural Gift and lansat berry. With it I can lure in Mega Venusaur in a treat and OHKO any offensive variant at the +2 from my SD on the switch - very nice seeing as I haven't seen defensive variants anywhere on the ladder. Mach Punch also gives me a solid answer to the Heatran that M-Venusaur is often paired with. 100BP flying is very nice neutral coverage, allowing me to OHKO things like Latios and Tornadus everytime after rocks - which Rock Tomb sometimes can't with Latios. Also the ability of a lansat berry isn't dead weight - when it activates you have increased critical hit chance, which is pretty scary when couple with a multi-strike move like Bullet Seed. Lastly, it also lets me eat up Chesnaught and other Brelooms - which for my team is very useful (Breloom is a pain to TR teams in general, with it's fast Spore that puts a lot of your stuff to sleep).

My next option is Natural Gift with lum berry - again flying type but with a BP drop to 80. Lum berry is obviously a huge benefit, my other physical sweeper is BD Azumarill who hates burns. With a lum berry, I no longer have to worry about burns from Rotom-W's WoW or Scald or Lava Plume (I often Memento into my sweepers, which allows Breloom to set up even on Heatran if needs be - but the burn chance does hurt). Without a lum berry option, I'm forced to defer to my special attackers in a lot of circumstances or risk a burn. In a match I played tonight, Breloom got burned by a nerfed Suicune because I needed the SD to make headway through his team so I thought it was work the risk (and sacrificing Azumarill on that chance is far worse, plus it had already Calm Minded so I couldn't too easily send in my special cleaners because of the SDef boosts).

However, the BP drop is noticeable, and things like M-Venusaur and Tornadus are no longer OHKOed. This really is a significant whack to me busting through teams with this guy which kills momentum, even if M-Venusaur and Tornadus become much more revengeable so to speak.

Other options include Spore - but I find it always bites you in the ass if you're looking to get enough SDs in to sweep with Breloom and doesn't solve the Mega Venusaur problem, or Rock Tomb with lum berry - but again that doesn't solve the Mega Venusaur probelm. Breloom has literally no other worthy coverage options.


TL:DR What set is best on Breloom on an offensive Trick Room team that prefers set up and punching holes to switches - Natural Gift with lansat berry, Natural Gift with lum berry, Spore, or lum berry with Rock Tomb? Mainly I'm leaning towards the two Natural Gift options, so give them a bit more weight unless you have compelling reasons for the other two (see the hidden bit for my thoughts).
 
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Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
New thread, new question. Is Togekiss good right now? I'm building a team around it's Nasty Plot set, and I've been wondering how good it is.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
New thread, new question. Is Togekiss good right now? I'm building a team around it's Nasty Plot set, and I've been wondering how good it is.
Togekiss is a pretty good pokemon right now and especially Offensive Nasty Plot is pretty decent. Scarfed and Defensive (includes Bold Nasty Plot) are also viable but less effective in general. I prefer using Baton Pass as a filler on Offensive Nasty Plot because it enables you to easily pass Nasty Plots against pokemon like Garchomp and Mega Sableye. Thunder Wave, Fire Blast and Heal Bell are great too on the offensive sets while Heal Bell is the best choice on Bold Nasty Plot sets.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Togekiss is a pretty good pokemon right now and especially Offensive Nasty Plot is pretty decent. Scarfed and Defensive (includes Bold Nasty Plot) are also viable but less effective in general. I prefer using Baton Pass as a filler on Offensive Nasty Plot because it enables you to easily pass Nasty Plots against pokemon like Garchomp and Mega Sableye. Thunder Wave, Fire Blast and Heal Bell are great too on the offensive sets while Heal Bell is the best choice on Bold Nasty Plot sets.
Thank you, I just thought it may not be that good with the number of Steel Types and the competition from other special attacking fairies like Clefable. My set is Nasty Plot Air Slash Roost and Fire Blast.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Thank you, I just thought it may not be that good with the number of Steel Types and the competition from other special attacking fairies like Clefable. My set is Nasty Plot Air Slash Roost and Fire Blast.
It struggles with pokemon like Megagross indeed but with Fire Blast you can hurt it when it switches in. The reason I like Baton Pass more is that it helps against slower pokemon that can wall the Air Slash / Fire Blast (SpD Heatran, SpD Jirachi, Rhyperior, Unaware Clef, Rotom-W) set, so you will be able to pass your boosts to something like Keldeo. It is still decent even if you face something like Metagross because dry passing works the same as U-Turn and Volt Switch does (except you don't do damage)
Tbh I have never played with Thunder Wave so can't give you much information about that except that it works similar as CM TWave Clefable as it can cripple switchins like Heatran and Metagross so your teammates can handle them easier. Fire Blast is great if you catch Scizor or Excadrill on the switch in but because of Togekiss' low physical bulk it is immediately knocked out so it depends a bit on prediction. Heal Bell is awesome against stall and only Mega Scizor, Heatran, Clefable and Zapdos are able to beat Togekiss with Roost / NP / Heal Bell / Air Slash
 
I was going to PM a moderator about this, but as far as I can tell you can only have 420 characters? I thought I'd post it here anyway and then a mod can do as they see fit, and sorry for any inconvenience.

I was wondering if there would ever be a possibility of a new OU ladder where secondary status effects of damaging moves are not applied (but non-damaging moves that inflict status are fine, and the damage boost to Sheer Force of those moves is untouched)? Would there be any interest in such a thing? I appreciate a new ladder can't be made for just anything, but I didn't think there was much harm in floating the idea out there. Here's what I was thinking on the topic:

I've seen the Scald thread in Policy Review, but to me it feels a bit presumptuous to blanket ban Scald when there's plenty of people who like fishing for burns and getting an odd lucky burn on a switch that changes the course of the match. It's hard to say that they're wrong for liking that strategy, and also banning it may very well set a precedent (there would be a much stronger argument for banning Lava Plume for example, as regardless of any valid reasons for or against people could point to Scald ban as justification in itself).

A new ladder would eliminate all such arguments permanently, and would be a place where players wouldn't have to take unnecessary risks such as not wanting to switch what would be a valid counter sans burn into a Scald user. It would also mean flinch would never call matches anymore - those cases when you bring out a slower check to a flinch move user, you can OHKO so long as you get a move in but they can 2HKO with their flinch move. People could also more strongly feel they won a match through skill and playing well, not because they lucked out.

I guess Sacred Fire Entei, Serene Grace users and things that rely to an extent on Fake Out like Mega Lopunny would all take a hit in viability because they rightfully have a good chance (if not 100% with Fake Out) of inflicting status (though Lopunny could still just Protect like most megas). On the flip side, all of those moves that only have a 30% chance of status or less and yet seem to be pivotal to so many matches wouldn't be an issue anymore. Stat boosts or drops as secondary effects aren't really the same issue, as you can phaze a boosted pokemon or you can switch out a nerfed mon - and whilst this may change the course of a match it's dramatically more manageable than a burn you can't shift plus people don't depend or take risks on those chances in the same way. Likewise I wouldn't ever say critical hits should be banned - a 6.25% chance is nothing in comparison to the almost 5-fold more likely 30% burn and flinch chances, and I'd wager to say people enjoy the little bit of variability that comes with a critical hit (plus, it would make CritDra and moves like Storm Throw utterly useless).

Maybe this could be a thread in Policy Review, to keep the riff raff like me out.
 
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Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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I was going to PM a moderator about this, but as far as I can tell you can only have 420 characters? I thought I'd post it here anyway and then a mod can do as they see fit, and sorry for any inconvenience.

I was wondering if there would ever be a possibility of a new OU ladder where secondary status effects of damaging moves are not applied (but non-damaging moves that inflict status are fine, and the damage boost to Sheer Force of those moves is untouched)? Would there be any interest in such a thing? I appreciate a new ladder can't be made for just anything, but I didn't think there was much harm in floating the idea out there. Here's what I was thinking on the topic:

I've seen the Scald thread in Policy Review, but to me it feels a bit presumptuous to blanket ban Scald when there's plenty of people who like fishing for burns and getting an odd lucky burn on a switch that changes the course of the match. It's hard to say that they're wrong for liking that strategy, and also banning it may very well set a precedent (there would be a much stronger argument for banning Lava Plume for example, as regardless of any valid reasons for or against people could point to Scald ban as justification in itself).

A new ladder would eliminate all such arguments permanently, and would be a place where players wouldn't have to take unnecessary risks such as not wanting to switch what would be a valid counter sans burn into a Scald user. It would also mean flinch would never call matches anymore - those cases when you bring out a slower check to a flinch move user, you can OHKO so long as you get a move in but they can 2HKO with their flinch move. People could also more strongly feel they won a match through skill and playing well, not because they lucked out.

I guess Sacred Fire Entei, Serene Grace users and things that rely to an extent on Fake Out like Mega Lopunny would all take a hit in viability because they rightfully have a good chance (if not 100% with Fake Out) of inflicting status (though Lopunny could still just Protect like most megas). On the flip side, all of those moves that only have a 30% chance of status or less and yet seem to be pivotal to so many matches wouldn't be an issue anymore. Stat boosts or drops as secondary effects aren't really the same issue, as you can phaze a boosted pokemon or you can switch out a nerfed mon - and whilst this may change the course of a match it's dramatically more manageable than a burn you can't shift plus people don't depend or take risks on those chances in the same way. Likewise I wouldn't ever say critical hits should be banned - a 6.25% chance is nothing in comparison to the almost 5-fold more likely 30% burn and flinch chances, and I'd wager to say people enjoy the little bit of variability that comes with a critical hit (plus, it would make CritDra and moves like Storm Throw utterly useless).

Maybe this could be a thread in Policy Review, to keep the riff raff like me out.
PS never alters game mechanics outside of OMs, so unfortunately I don't see this happening.
 
I was going to PM a moderator about this, but as far as I can tell you can only have 420 characters? I thought I'd post it here anyway and then a mod can do as they see fit, and sorry for any inconvenience.

I was wondering if there would ever be a possibility of a new OU ladder where secondary status effects of damaging moves are not applied (but non-damaging moves that inflict status are fine, and the damage boost to Sheer Force of those moves is untouched)? Would there be any interest in such a thing? I appreciate a new ladder can't be made for just anything, but I didn't think there was much harm in floating the idea out there. Here's what I was thinking on the topic:

I've seen the Scald thread in Policy Review, but to me it feels a bit presumptuous to blanket ban Scald when there's plenty of people who like fishing for burns and getting an odd lucky burn on a switch that changes the course of the match. It's hard to say that they're wrong for liking that strategy, and also banning it may very well set a precedent (there would be a much stronger argument for banning Lava Plume for example, as regardless of any valid reasons for or against people could point to Scald ban as justification in itself).

A new ladder would eliminate all such arguments permanently, and would be a place where players wouldn't have to take unnecessary risks such as not wanting to switch what would be a valid counter sans burn into a Scald user. It would also mean flinch would never call matches anymore - those cases when you bring out a slower check to a flinch move user, you can OHKO so long as you get a move in but they can 2HKO with their flinch move. People could also more strongly feel they won a match through skill and playing well, not because they lucked out.

I guess Sacred Fire Entei, Serene Grace users and things that rely to an extent on Fake Out like Mega Lopunny would all take a hit in viability because they rightfully have a good chance (if not 100% with Fake Out) of inflicting status (though Lopunny could still just Protect like most megas). On the flip side, all of those moves that only have a 30% chance of status or less and yet seem to be pivotal to so many matches wouldn't be an issue anymore. Stat boosts or drops as secondary effects aren't really the same issue, as you can phaze a boosted pokemon or you can switch out a nerfed mon - and whilst this may change the course of a match it's dramatically more manageable than a burn you can't shift plus people don't depend or take risks on those chances in the same way. Likewise I wouldn't ever say critical hits should be banned - a 6.25% chance is nothing in comparison to the almost 5-fold more likely 30% burn and flinch chances, and I'd wager to say people enjoy the little bit of variability that comes with a critical hit (plus, it would make CritDra and moves like Storm Throw utterly useless).

Maybe this could be a thread in Policy Review, to keep the riff raff like me out.
I'm assuming that's a VM you are talking about, on their profile. You start a PM by clicking on their profile picture and then "start a conversation". PMs have much higher character limits.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Looking for a pokemon that checks Mega Diancie, Unaware Clefable and Mega Venusaur while still having some good offensive presence to break walls. Thanks in advance.
 

AM

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LCPL Champion
Forgot to say no mega Random Passerby but still thanks for your help. SubToxic or Scarf I assume AM?
Subtoxic would be better. Any defensive variant or one that invests in HP. Scarf is ok if you're using offense but that's implying you brought Spikes to wear down Unaware Clefable and M-Venusaur. Depends more on team composition but Subtoxic is a safe bet.
 
PS never alters game mechanics outside of OMs, so unfortunately I don't see this happening.
What do you mean by OMs? Official mandates? If that's the case, then if enough people sign off on it then why not. It's also a fairly huge deal people argue over time and time again (and is currently be argued about in a form currently, in the Scald policy review) - this seems like a potential solution. If enough people wanted it.

I'm assuming that's a VM you are talking about, on their profile. You start a PM by clicking on their profile picture and then "start a conversation". PMs have much higher character limits.
I didn't realise, thanks. I would have thought it would be called a PM like most forums. I'll save points like this for a PM with a mod in the future. Still, I don't feel like it was a completely idiotic point I made by any means.
 

Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
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What do you mean by OMs? Official mandates? If that's the case, then if enough people sign off on it then why not. It's also a fairly huge deal people argue over time and time again (and is currently be argued about in a form currently, in the Scald policy review) - this seems like a potential solution. If enough people wanted it.
Other Metagames = OM
 
Wouldn't that be another metagame? Exactly like no megas?
The No Mega ladder is more of an exception to the norm since its implementation is pretty simple (don't bring a mega) and isn't too different from OU. Anything that changes in-game mechanics would have to be submitted as an OM proposal. Joim also set up a Pet Mod that you might be interested in that makes secondary effects non-RNG based. Here's the link: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/skillmons-playable-on-joims-lab.3524601/
 
The No Mega ladder is more of an exception to the norm since its implementation is pretty simple (don't bring a mega) and isn't too different from OU. Anything that changes in-game mechanics would have to be submitted as an OM proposal. Joim also set up a Pet Mod that you might be interested in that makes secondary effects non-RNG based. Here's the link: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/skillmons-playable-on-joims-lab.3524601/
Thanks for the tip, I'll definitely look into playing the pet mod. And I get what you're saying, the no Mega ladder is very straightforward in its meaning and I know from countless moderators explaining stuff to idiots that Smogon likes its bans, ladders and rules implementation to be as straightforward as possible - still an easy dissemination of what a new ladder entailed could be worked upon after it drummed up enough interest (you know, for people who don't want to play Skillmons because it sucks any chance out of Pokemon and replaces it with hard calculus yet still want a bit of a nerf to high RNG chance hax from happening). I guess as Skillmons covers a lot of these concerns already, it makes you wonder why some people are hankering for a ban on Scald in the first place.

Again, thanks. I'll give Skillmons a play.
 
What do you guys think is the better choice for Wallbreaker Mega Medicham: Adamant or Jolly?
Max Speed Adamant hits 299 speed, Max Speed Jolly hits 328 speed.

There isn't really anything between those two speeds that you need to outspeed on a wallbreaking set for Megacham, so you should probably go with Adamant for the extra damage. Maybe Manaphy, or Landorus-T, but you can always run a partner to handle those if you're intent on running a wallbreaking megacham.

Bullet Speed/Fake Out are decent alternatives for outspeeding things if you realize you're in need of it.
 

DarkNostalgia

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is a Contributor Alumnus
Jolly is probably preferred actually. Adamant doesn't net you any extra KOes - I mean Ice Punch has a 50% chance to OHKO Scarf Landorus-T as opposed to a guaranteed 2HKO for Jolly, but with a Jolly nature Mega Medicham outpaces Jolly Excadrill, Timid Manaphy (160 Speed ones or 252 Speed ones with HP Fire), Jolly Landorus-T, Volcarona before Quiver Dancing, 184 Speed Mega Charizard X before Dragon Dancing, Adamant Terrakion, Naive Mega Garchomp, Naive Kyurem-B, and Speed tying with max Speed Jolly Mega Charizard X, Timid Mega Charizard Y, Timid Mega Gardevoir, Timid Max Speed Manaphy, and Jolly Victini. Adamant could be used for power purposes but potentially losing to these aforementioned threats is detrimental.
 

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