Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[AM]

im guessing this was aimed towards me, but i dont think of mglalie lowly, in fact i just think its kinda unviable for a mega and has a huge competition for a mega slot.
The problem is is that if no one is using it anyways and people are using much more viable mons instead, thats why people are pushing it to be deranked. not exactly disagreeing with this point but not agreeing either. I don't really understand why you say we are "invested" in it tho, we are just stating our opinion.

Thats all...



Bludz, if you do decide to run that, you are extremely easy revenge killer bait to HO and its mixed moveset doesnt allow it to really run max attack, which sucks. You also lose out on its main niche which is Explosion.

Its unfortunate 100 base speed really ruins its potential imo. all in all tho it does wall a decent portion of the meta.

It wasn't directed towards you alone it was directed for posts that do this, which happens a ton with the lower rank stuff it seems. The competition for mega slot is a factor why it's so low, you do realize this thing was at like C+/C at the beginning of ORAS before right? It's sort of a given we noticed these flaws overtime we're not completely oblivious to the points being made. Yes I used the term "invested" because the same people post again and again for it to be unranked and within 10+ slates it hasn't happened so I thought it was sort of a given. This isn't even to sound rude as M-Glalie was part of the lower rank clean up initially but we also acknowledged that it's hard to wall without a fat steel such as M-Scizor who can be pressured by entry hazards and even some like Skarmory aren't even surefire answers to it. Also the speed tier is fine for wall-breaking purposes, which is the point of M-Glalie anyways.

The whole unviability for a mega starts to pretty much hit M-Garchomp and under if we're talking about just general ranking placement and if we're being completely honest. Not so much unviable but more so that you can literally make a team to accommodate for normal meta-game trends and handle these just fine and don't require some sort of specialized threat control. I mean the term "competition" for the mega slot gets thrown into a ton of arguments which is understandable but by the time you're hitting C ranks you're already using pretty specific assets and luxury mons in general so competition wouldn't exactly be the term I would use at that point.

 

[Flamer]

I dont really have time to make a big post so Ill very briefly make this nom. Why the fuck hasnt Talonflame been raised to S yet? Every time I teambuild there are three big threat threats I absolutely have to prepare for lest I be anally raped, Altatia, Lando-I, and Talonflame. Of these the hardest to prepare for is Landorus followed by Talonflame. Altaria might be more dangerous from a stats perpective but its honestly much easy to fit a reliable answer to Alt on a team compared to Talonflame. The only arguments I've ever seen to deny Talonflame as an S ranked mon is "stealth rock weakness" and "Rotom Wash beats it" and quite frankly, neither of those are a big deal. Talonflame is so versatile in that all of it's sets are very viable and all fit on the same sort of teams. 126 base Speed is fucking ridiculous, Jolly SD sets have 2 counters, Washtom and TTar, who are both easy to weaken. SPdef variants anally rape Stall teams and fat cores without breaking a sweat, not to mention taking on dangerous special attackers and can burn many physical attackers. Choice Band variants maintain momentum very well and is a fantastic lategame cleaner. Honestly, unless you run Washtom on every team (which you shouldnt) you always risk being beat by a particular variant of Talonflame. Keeping such a dangerous mon out of S just because it needs hazards support is so dumb it hurts. If someone could actually give me a solid reason why Talonflame shouldnt be in S Im all ears but so far all Ive heard is shitty rehashed arguments that barely make a difference.

 

[bludz]

Haha I don't think you're going to like this answer but here goes. Talonflame is actually harder to check from a teambuilding perspective than it is in actuality. Now that's not to say that it isn't very difficult to deal with in matches too, but it is more manageable than we make it seem since if you don't prepare a certain amount it is going to floor you. Let's not also forget that Heatran, Slowbro, Hippowdon, Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Diancie and Rhyperior (this is actually the hardest counter of all to SD) can take on a +2 Talonflame and retaliate with a powerful enough move to KO after the recoil damage. On top of that there are some other soft checks like Mega Manectric, Lando-T and CB Dragonite with Extremespeed.

Okay so yeah I agree that Talonflame is one of the biggest threats I consider when teambuilding, but SR is actually a huge thing that DOES hold it back. Okay if you can't keep rocks up then it's just going to have a field day but if you manage to win that battle then the SD set is going to get 2 kills at most before it dies from recoil. SpDef sets are much more annoying to take down because of priority Roost but the physical bulk is really mediocre so it relies on good typing and wisp burns primarily. They do lure in a lot of the above checks to the SD set just to burn them which is a real bitch. However Bulk Up sets are weak to stuff like Toxic while Taunt ones can just be attacked repeatedly to win especially if you have something like Dragon Tail and manage to keep SR up. Losing 50% every switch-in is actually a really big deal if you can force Talonflame out a few times because it makes it really difficult to switch in and stops being a check to stuff like DD Altaria (ok I edited for a better example) which SpDef sets are supposed to sorta come in against.

I think it's one of the best mons in A+ but when you consider how much more difficult it is to check Landorus or Metagross it just doesn't stand up. It also isn't nearly as unpredictable or bulky as Altaria (and that typing oh god). And it just doesn't come in and out as easily as Keldeo (regardless of Rocks) to put tons of pressure on the opponent thanks to arguably the most spammable move in the game and forcing in common hazard removers which can also be pursuit trapped.

 

[Eraxxer]

Talonflame is without a doubt the most Meta defining Pokemon - which is bad for Talonflame, as every team will carry at least 1 solid check, and usually 2 or 3 counters.

Talonflame is not hard to prepare for - every set is beaten by Rhyperior, Quagsire, Rotom-Wash, Mega Diancie. Most sets are beaten by Tyranitar, Heatran, Zapdos, Rocky Chomp, Tyrantrum.

It's quad weak to rocks which hinders it a lot as well, relying on a fair bit of team support.

I'll briefly go over each set and its counters- this is off the top of my head, so I am definitely missing some stuff. Talonflame can, at +2, do a lot of damage, but anything will at +2 with a STAB 120 Base Power move, and then it will die.

SD set:

Rotom-W, Quagsire, Mega Diancie, Heatran, Tyranitar, Tyrantrum, Mega Manectric, Rhyperior

SpDef Bulk Up and taunt:

Quagsire, Rotom-W, Mega Diancie, Tyranitar, Tyrantrum, Mega Manectric, Rhyperior.

Choice Band talonflame is a thing of the past, it's really not that good anymore as it just kills itself especially with rocks up.

 

[Flygonial]

Talonflame may not be the easiest thing to cover in teambuilding, but like bludz said, its not as difficult to deal with in actuality. I've been seeing more Ancient Power Heatrans then I have in XY for its Sp. Def sets, the rise of Tank Garchomp means nothing good for SD sets, Hippowdon with rock moves are more common, and despite hazard removal being easily accessible, it cannot always be done. I've managed to make by with a HO that has no real SD Talon check and rarely lost to it, since the opposing team was often so pressured that they couldn't remove rocks or get Talon in safely. On most bulky offense teams, I usually have a Heatran with a rock move, Rotom-W, or some other pokemon. Yes, Talonflame does definitely demand being prepared for, but it also means that many people are ready for it. Band sets aren't the best pivots since it lacks recovery so it won't necessarily always be able to pull off a U-turn. It's versatile yes, but I don't believe it's really up there.

 

[WhiteStag98]

I don't want to advocate talonflame for S rank as I think its right at home in A+, but I do think the arguments that its checked by low ranked mons such as tyrantrum or sub-standard sets such as ancient power heatran don't really carry any weight; the use of these low viability pokemon/sets just to counter talonflame PROVES that talonflame is, in fact, dominating the meta to a certain extent. I agree far more with the idea that it checked by common, high viability pokemon such as heatran, ttar, and rotom-w, as well as the ubiquitous stealth rocks, which can never be ignored (ESPECIALLY in OU).

To be completely honest, I took about 3-4 months off showdown, but I've played a lot in the last week or so, so my operational knowledge of the current meta should be more-or-less up to scratch. I was very surprised to see celebi in A rank, as I've battled against a number of them, and each time the most its ended up achieving is wasting some pp on defensive pokemon's moves, absorbing a leech seed, or passing off a sub. I understand that it has its uses, and its quite possible that I merely haven't matched up against someone using celebi to its highest potential, but my opinion is that A rank is too high for it at the moment.

I also don't agree with politoed's A- rank. I played quite a lot more of gen 5 (waaaaayyyy back in the day, amirite?) and my belief was that the only reason it was viable at all was because of its incredible drizzle ability. With the nerf to weather in gen 6, the only rain teams I have seen have ALL featured mega-swampert (which is in the tier below, B+), and used politoed purely for its ability. Politoed is highly effective on rain teams, for obvious reasons, but given its fairly weak stats and mediocre move pool, I don't believe it deserves the very high A- ranking. Perhaps I would consider polioted more favourably if rain was a driving force in the current meta, but with the nerf to its duration and main abuser (mega-swampert, which as mentioned above is only a B+ rank) I believe that rain, despite being the strongest of weather teams, has been relegated to almost gimmick-level, and that a pokemon whose sole purpose is to set up rain should not be considered for A- minus rank as a pokemon that is'fantastic in the OU metagame' (copied directly from the tier listing definition)

I have some minor gripes concerning other pokemon that I believe could be pushed a rank either way (such as Kyurem-B, which I believe should be A rank rather than A- because of its fantastic mixed coverage) but these two really stood out for me as pokemon that were overrated. Perhaps in future I'll turn my attention (Read: flamethrower) on some of these pokemon, but I believe I've discussed enough for now.

 

[Sochlo]

lol you're massively underrating Rain as a playstyle. As it stands a vast majority of offensive teams and even some more defensive oriented teams straight up lose to Rain on matchup. Mega Swampert is not even Rain's most used Mega, in my experience that would be Mega Scizor, which does a fantastic job covering things that would otherwise give Rain sweepers like Kingdra and Omastar problems (Which isn't a lot in the first place).

Rain is really strong in the current meta and is by no means a gimmick. Politoed being the cornerstone of the playstyle justifies its placement in A- IMO.

 

[WhiteStag98]

I have had a bit more of a look into rain teams after my first post, as I realised that I haven't run into one in a while and should probably have a close look. I definitely undervalued the viability of rain while talking about politoed, but I still believe that a pokemon whose sole job consists of summoning weather isn't worth using. The main thing that politoed had over rain-dance users back in gen 5 when rain was meta-defining was that only drizzle rain lasted the entire battle. Now, using politoed over a rain-dance user only really serves the purpose of saving the turn rain dance was used on. This essentially means that politoed is taking up one one of the precious 6 pokemon slots on your team so that you can set up rain by switching in rather than using a move (which, admittedly, can be helpful in terms or revenge killing with swift-swim users against fast pokemon) or to gain a turn with politoed in, of which the only probably result is the use of a status move. Clearly, politoed does have benefits over rain-dancers, but I don't believe that this benefit is worth a whole pokemon, and hence I don't believe that the pokemon that uses this as its niche is worthy of A- rank.

 

[Flamer]

Its no secret that lots of mons can come in on a particular talonflame variant for free but nearly all of them either dont appreciate a particulat set or are easy to wear down. Talonflames unpredictability is its greatest asset, unlike other "unpredictable" mons, Talonflames various sets have a different host of counters. With mons like Altaria, you can slap a general counter on and still do well if theyre not running the particular set you prepared for. Talonflame is completely different. Out of all the counters mentioned, only Unaware Quagsire and Rotom wash can reliably counter every talonflame set and arent easily worn down, most of them hate wisp (Rhyperior, chomp, ttar, tyrantrum, diancie), many of them might resist a STAB but cannot do anything back/get beaten by another move (Raikou, Zapdos, Heatran). Youre all taking it way too much at face value, Talonflame does well against all playstyles, fills a variety of roles, and is easy to fit on teams. The same argument I hear is "Its so meta defining you have to run a counter or you lose". Greninja was the same, you pack a counter or you lose. In fact, talonflame shares a lot of traits with everyones favourite ninja, particular mons countered particular sets but got beat by a different set, very difficult to revenge, did well against a range of playstyles. The difference? One was undoubtedly S rank and eventually banned while the other resides a rank below while being just as metagame defining. Im by no means saying talon is broken or even close to being worthy of a suspect but the similarities they share are undeniable so why was one bumped to S while the other remains A+ (not that A+ is bad but for something as defining as Talon is almost seems a copout)

 

[NotSoClutch]

I have had a bit more of a look into rain teams after my first post, as I realised that I haven't run into one in a while and should probably have a close look. I definitely undervalued the viability of rain while talking about politoed, but I still believe that a pokemon whose sole job consists of summoning weather isn't worth using. The main thing that politoed had over rain-dance users back in gen 5 when rain was meta-defining was that only drizzle rain lasted the entire battle. Now, using politoed over a rain-dance user only really serves the purpose of saving the turn rain dance was used on. This essentially means that politoed is taking up one one of the precious 6 pokemon slots on your team so that you can set up rain by switching in rather than using a move (which, admittedly, can be helpful in terms or revenge killing with swift-swim users against fast pokemon) or to gain a turn with politoed in, of which the only probably result is the use of a status move. Clearly, politoed does have benefits over rain-dancers, but I don't believe that this benefit is worth a whole pokemon, and hence I don't believe that the pokemon that uses this as its niche is worthy of A- rank.

That one turn may not seem significant, but there are many times that one turn can cost you the entire match. Being able to attack, switch, or cripple an opponent with Politoed instead of having to take an extra hit, waste a moveslot, and possibly even allow your opponent the turn of setup they desperately needed. There is also the added benefit of being able to switch Politoed in as a sack and still getting rain up instead of needing a possible double sack to safely switch in and then setup rain for your sweeper. Trust me, toed does A- justice and is far and away the best setter of rain.

Its no secret that lots of mons can come in on a particular talonflame variant for free but nearly all of them either dont appreciate a particulat set or are easy to wear down. Talonflames unpredictability is its greatest asset, unlike other "unpredictable" mons, Talonflames various sets have a different host of counters. With mons like Altaria, you can slap a general counter on and still do well if theyre not running the particular set you prepared for. Talonflame is completely different. Out of all the counters mentioned, only Unaware Quagsire and Rotom wash can reliably counter every talonflame set and arent easily worn down, most of them hate wisp (Rhyperior, chomp, ttar, tyrantrum, diancie), many of them might resist a STAB but cannot do anything back/get beaten by another move (Raikou, Zapdos, Heatran). Youre all taking it way too much at face value, Talonflame does well against all playstyles, fills a variety of roles, and is easy to fit on teams. The same argument I hear is "Its so meta defining you have to run a counter or you lose". Greninja was the same, you pack a counter or you lose. In fact, talonflame shares a lot of traits with everyones favourite ninja, particular mons countered particular sets but got beat by a different set, very difficult to revenge, did well against a range of playstyles. The difference? One was undoubtedly S rank and eventually banned while the other resides a rank below while being just as metagame defining. Im by no means saying talon is broken or even close to being worthy of a suspect but the similarities they share are undeniable so why was one bumped to S while the other remains A+ (not that A+ is bad but for something as defining as Talon is almost seems a copout)

The difference is that Greninja wasn't nearly as easy to counter, check, or wear down. While Talonflame may be able to wear down a number of its checks over the course of a match, it requires a lot of support to do so. If rocks are up, Talonflame comes in once (unless it gets a roost off at some point). Talonflame's only viable stab options (and let's be real, attacking options outside of insane lures and the weak u-turn) all have drawbacks. Whether Tflame is taking recoil damage with every turn or it can't have an item, it's job is made tougher. Talonflame also struggles to switch in on anything as even switching in on Ferrothorn (a relatively passive Pokemon that Talonflame resists the STABs of) can greatly decrease Tflames longevity

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 101-119 (34 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

or in Talonflame's viability later in the match if it uses thunder wave. I'd go on, but I'll let others take over as most of my other points are pretty much just reiterating what has already been said.

 

[Eraxxer]

Its no secret that lots of mons can come in on a particular talonflame variant for free but nearly all of them either dont appreciate a particulat set or are easy to wear down. Talonflames unpredictability is its greatest asset, unlike other "unpredictable" mons, Talonflames various sets have a different host of counters. With mons like Altaria, you can slap a general counter on and still do well if theyre not running the particular set you prepared for. Talonflame is completely different. Out of all the counters mentioned, only Unaware Quagsire and Rotom wash can reliably counter every talonflame set and arent easily worn down, most of them hate wisp (Rhyperior, chomp, ttar, tyrantrum, diancie), many of them might resist a STAB but cannot do anything back/get beaten by another move (Raikou, Zapdos, Heatran). Youre all taking it way too much at face value, Talonflame does well against all playstyles, fills a variety of roles, and is easy to fit on teams. The same argument I hear is "Its so meta defining you have to run a counter or you lose". Greninja was the same, you pack a counter or you lose. In fact, talonflame shares a lot of traits with everyones favourite ninja, particular mons countered particular sets but got beat by a different set, very difficult to revenge, did well against a range of playstyles. The difference? One was undoubtedly S rank and eventually banned while the other resides a rank below while being just as metagame defining. Im by no means saying talon is broken or even close to being worthy of a suspect but the similarities they share are undeniable so why was one bumped to S while the other remains A+ (not that A+ is bad but for something as defining as Talon is almost seems a copout)

Mega Diancie has Magic Bounce and can't be wisped.

44+ Atk burned Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 434-512 (120.8 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk burned Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 368-434 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. +3 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 408-482 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While these things don't like being Wisped, they can still OHKO Talonflame, without even factoring in Rocks. Garchomp can still Dragon Tail out if it's bulky, it could be Lum, it could still KO with Stone Edge if it has it. Zapdos does not get beaten, nor does Raikou depending on the set or if Talonflame has had the ability to set up.

68 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 228-270 (63.5 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 366-432 (123.2 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 Flare Blitz KOes Raikou, so Raikou is beaten in that one scenario.

252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 246-290 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heatran can Roar, Toxic and some carry Stone Edge or Ancient Power. Taunt beats it but you seem to say Talon is running Wisp instead. The difference between Talon and Greninja is that Talonflame has guaranteed, 100% counters that always work, while Greninja had no guaranteed counters depending on its movesets. Talon has counters that are also really good in OU, not obscure things.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Talonflame DOES beat Raikou, since +2 Flare Blitz is a guaranteed OHKO. Not saying I'm for Talonflame going to S or whatever but just wanted to point that out.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Talonflame DOES beat Raikou, since +2 Flare Blitz is a guaranteed OHKO. Not saying I'm for Talonflame going to S or whatever but just wanted to point that out.

But Talonflame either has to attack or setup first turn and then gets beaten unless Spdef set by a t-bolt as Raikou outspeeds flare blitz.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

How exactly does Raikou outspeed Talonflame lmao.
It's simple, Raikou switches into Talonflame and is 2HKOed by Flare Blitz, OHKOed at +2. You setup AS they switch into Raikou, it's not like an unboosted Talonflame would stay in on a Raikou, much like a Mega Gyarados wouldn't stay in on an Azumarill.

 

[WhiteStag98]

That one turn may not seem significant, but there are many times that one turn can cost you the entire match. Being able to attack, switch, or cripple an opponent with Politoed instead of having to take an extra hit, waste a moveslot, and possibly even allow your opponent the turn of setup they desperately needed. There is also the added benefit of being able to switch Politoed in as a sack and still getting rain up instead of needing a possible double sack to safely switch in and then setup rain for your sweeper. Trust me, toed does A- justice and is far and away the best setter of rain.

I know that politoed is the best rain setter; if it wasn't, there would be no point in using it. Obviously, its niche is that the weather it summons is with its ability, not a move, but the point I'm trying to make isn't that it doesn't have a niche or that its isn't viable, but that the niche it does fill isn't worthy of A-. Its not, in my opinion a pokemon that is 'fantastic in OU', rather, its a pokemon that does the job others can do, but slightly better, and I think the cost of this benefit is too much for the politoed to be considered OU.

I figured when I wrote my initial post that these pokemon had been discussed and that there were reasons for them to be this high, and I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't seen any arguments convincing me that politoed's niche is worthy of a lofty A- ranking.

I actually thought that celebi would have been the more controversial pokemon to bring up, as I've seen a number of them and still haven't been convinced of its viability, despite it being ranked super highly. Again, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but I wanted to bring these pokemon up either for a good discussion or so that I could figure out what made them so good, and the latter hasn't happened yet in my opinion.

 

[Flamer]

Mega Diancie has Magic Bounce and can't be wisped.

44+ Atk burned Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 434-512 (120.8 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk burned Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 368-434 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. +3 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 408-482 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While these things don't like being Wisped, they can still OHKO Talonflame, without even factoring in Rocks. Garchomp can still Dragon Tail out if it's bulky, it could be Lum, it could still KO with Stone Edge if it has it. Zapdos does not get beaten, nor does Raikou depending on the set or if Talonflame has had the ability to set up.

68 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 228-270 (63.5 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 366-432 (123.2 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 Flare Blitz KOes Raikou, so Raikou is beaten in that one scenario.

252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 246-290 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heatran can Roar, Toxic and some carry Stone Edge or Ancient Power. Taunt beats it but you seem to say Talon is running Wisp instead. The difference between Talon and Greninja is that Talonflame has guaranteed, 100% counters that always work, while Greninja had no guaranteed counters depending on its movesets. Talon has counters that are also really good in OU, not obscure things.

Youre taking this way too one dimentionally and playing all of these scenarios out like an idiot. Never once did I say that Talonflame would stay in on something with stone edge, thats about as smart as sticking your finger in the kettle to see if the water's hot. What I did say was that it can wisp them on the switch and switch out, considering none of them have reliable recovery they will all eventually lose. I also didnt say wisp talon beats tran, I said particular sets beat counters to other sets and considering they fit on the same team its near impossible to tell the difference, in the case of tran it loses to SD taunt and SD, in the case of raikou is loses to SD. What youre saying is akin to someone saying "Greninja without Gunk shot loses to Clefable so for that reason we shouldnt ban greninja" or "Greninja without Low Kick cant beat Empoleon". As we all know, that never actually works out, the threat of it having the coverage move prevents them from being switchins. Whats actually wrong about talonflame being forced out? It has priority recovery, a surpisingly good defensive typing and beats a lot of the meta.

 

[Flygonial]

I know that politoed is the best rain setter; if it wasn't, there would be no point in using it. Obviously, its niche is that the weather it summons is with its ability, not a move, but the point I'm trying to make isn't that it doesn't have a niche or that its isn't viable, but that the niche it does fill isn't worthy of A-. Its not, in my opinion a pokemon that is 'fantastic in OU', rather, its a pokemon that does the job others can do, but slightly better, and I think the cost of this benefit is too much for the politoed to be considered OU.

I figured when I wrote my initial post that these pokemon had been discussed and that there were reasons for them to be this high, and I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't seen any arguments convincing me that politoed's niche is worthy of a lofty A- ranking.

I actually thought that celebi would have been the more controversial pokemon to bring up, as I've seen a number of them and still haven't been convinced of its viability, despite it being ranked super highly. Again, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but I wanted to bring these pokemon up either for a good discussion or so that I could figure out what made them so good, and the latter hasn't happened yet in my opinion.

Celebi is highly versatile. Its viable sets range from defensive, Nasty Pass, Scarf, and LO attacker. Defensive sets can be quite bulky, for example being able to avoid the 2HKO from powerful hits such as Mega Metagross barring rocks. Nasty Pass allows for Celebi to create sweepers out of fast special scarfers as well as countering Mega Slowbro. Scarf sets are fast enough to outspeed Mega Swampert in the Rain, checking Mega Lopunny and Keldeo, while also possessing gems such as U-turn and Healing Wish, incredible nifty assets to any scarfer. Life Orb attacker sets pack quite the punch, almost matching up to base 145's power while also having a good amount of bulk and possessing coverage moves such as Earth Power, Ancient Power, and HP Fire.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Choice Scarf doesn't outspeed Swampert in rain... Also Scarf Celebi isn't that great anyway

To add on to what Flygonial said, Celebi has great utility and support options in its arsenal, including things like Stealth Rock, Healing Wish, Recover, Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell etc., which allows it to fulfill many roles on a team. It also possesses a unique typing, making it a great check to a lot of Pokemon such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Keldeo, Rotom-W. A rank fits it perfectly imo; it is held back by a nasty weakness to Dark and Bug, but the sheer amount of utility it gets is enough to warrant A.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I know that politoed is the best rain setter; if it wasn't, there would be no point in using it. Obviously, its niche is that the weather it summons is with its ability, not a move, but the point I'm trying to make isn't that it doesn't have a niche or that its isn't viable, but that the niche it does fill isn't worthy of A-. Its not, in my opinion a pokemon that is 'fantastic in OU', rather, its a pokemon that does the job others can do, but slightly better, and I think the cost of this benefit is too much for the politoed to be considered OU.

I figured when I wrote my initial post that these pokemon had been discussed and that there were reasons for them to be this high, and I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't seen any arguments convincing me that politoed's niche is worthy of a lofty A- ranking.

I actually thought that celebi would have been the more controversial pokemon to bring up, as I've seen a number of them and still haven't been convinced of its viability, despite it being ranked super highly. Again, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but I wanted to bring these pokemon up either for a good discussion or so that I could figure out what made them so good, and the latter hasn't happened yet in my opinion.

Rain is a great playstyle, rain needs toed to function properly. It's pretty simple stuff really. Without Politoed, rain would be far too difficult to setup in a timely manner and with toed, it just straight up matchup wins about 50% of the time. I really don't know what you don't understand about this. If you'd like to be brought up to speed about rain teams I'd be glad to discuss in private, but let's just suffice to say that it's niche is worth A- on it's own and completely validates an otherwise gimmicky playstyle.

 

[WhiteStag98]

Thanks for clarifying celebis ranking, I realise now that I'd only really seen variations of the same bpass celebi set and had underestimated its versatility. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about the necessity of running politoed to make rain teams work mac1275, but I concede that if it's essential to make the play-style work (which I'm not completely sold on) A- is fair.

 

[Eraxxer]

Youre taking this way too one dimentionally and playing all of these scenarios out like an idiot. Never once did I say that Talonflame would stay in on something with stone edge, thats about as smart as sticking your finger in the kettle to see if the water's hot. What I did say was that it can wisp them on the switch and switch out, considering none of them have reliable recovery they will all eventually lose.

And it switches out and then it needs to get rid of rocks again. Talonflame can't just constantly switch like that. You're also ignoring the parts where your previous points were completely wrong, like Mega Diancie. That's not a valid way to argue.

I also didnt say wisp talon beats tran, I said particular sets beat counters to other sets and considering they fit on the same team its near impossible to tell the difference, in the case of tran it loses to SD taunt and SD, in the case of raikou is loses to SD.

OK this isn't overly important but Heatran doesn't lose to SD if it's at full, at least enough to get off a Roar or a Toxic, and like I said Stone Edge/Ancient Power Heatran is getting a bit of usage specifically to stop Talonflame beating it. Raikou oenly loses to SD if Talon gets a free turn of setup, otherwise Talon loses.

What youre saying is akin to someone saying "Greninja without Gunk shot loses to Clefable so for that reason we shouldnt ban greninja" or "Greninja without Low Kick cant beat Empoleon". As we all know, that never actually works out, the threat of it having the coverage move prevents them from being switchins.

You can't compare Talonflame with greninja, Gren was just much better in general. It could have coverage for anything, whereas you know for a fact that Rotom and Quagsire beat Talon, as do a multitude of other things I and others already listed.

Whats actually wrong about talonflame being forced out? It has priority recovery, a surpisingly good defensive typing and beats a lot of the meta.

What's wrong about being forced to switch out is that it is quad weak to rocks. You say that a weakness to rocks isn't that bad, when it's just about the one thing keeping Zard Y from A+ and a huge portion of things in BL as opposed to OU. Weakness to rocks is really important in this meta when they're almost always up. Priority roost might save it against Stall where it won't be OHKOed by something, but any well built stall team has a guaranteed Talonflame counter, usually Quagsire, so being able to stay healthy only means so much. Priority Roost is a lot more difficult to use when you're up against offense or balance and you're facing something that can easily OHKO you.

 

[AM]

Flamer tbf the argument "you need a full blown counter or you lose" I don't think exactly applies to Talonflame. bludz has a really valid point in that it's much scarier in the team-builder than in practice as for the most part teams can be built with simple strong checks to account for Talonflame and do just fine. Though I do agree with the sentiment that being Stealth Rock is not a good argument alone to keep something out of a certain rank, Char-Y being SR weak is a factor btw but not the whole story why it's A and not A+ for whoever mentioned that, the argument of it being SR weak from a collective standpoint is sort of important to address regardless. We all know that Talonflame is designed to put pressure through its variances but funnily enough the most consistent form of pressure in the entirety of the game itself forces it to play more carefully and reduces that splashability of use and thus necessitates definitive hazard control much more in practice.

Balance can easily afford to run general checks to Talonflame on any given team without compromising the entirety of a build, having to use a sure fire way to handle it, or use generally shitty gimmicks. Scarftar, Hippowdon, fat waters, water pivots, M-Aerodactyl, M-Diancie just to name a select handful. Offense probably has the worst match-up to it due to a lack of switch ins but the nature of Offense is much more burdened by stuff like M-Lopunny, Thundurus, RP M-Diancie, DDance M-Altaria and are usually forced to use very arbitrary ways of revenge killing to not get floored by some of these so Talonflames match up against offense and the tier doesn't have an abundance of exclusivity. Stall can lose to SpDef TFlame you're right in there, but let's be honest Flamer stall has a lot more problems these days that is reducing its viability bit by bit and can even be a gamble to run full on stall these days when you have stuff like Manaphy in the tier so granted it has a good matchup with that set against stall, a matchup against stall isn't that difficult to achieve.

Its diversity is there but it's still a really linear mon. It's not like a lot of the S rank mons where they're a bit more splashable due to having both an offensive and defensive aspect they bring to the table, or if we're talking about Keldeo the lack of SR weakness and ease of implementing on teams for its ability to blanket check a lot at once offensively. There's no arguing that it's not one of the best A+ ranked mons but I don't think it qualifies itself at S at this point and putting it at S is being really liberal and sort of just makes half the A+ stuff become S rank for comparison sake.

Edit: Probably won't get a response until later in the day btw

 

[Flygonial]

Choice Scarf doesn't outspeed Swampert in rain... Also Scarf Celebi isn't that great anyway

To add on to what Flygonial said, Celebi has great utility and support options in its arsenal, including things like Stealth Rock, Healing Wish, Recover, Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell etc., which allows it to fulfill many roles on a team. It also possesses a unique typing, making it a great check to a lot of Pokemon such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Keldeo, Rotom-W. A rank fits it perfectly imo; it is held back by a nasty weakness to Dark and Bug, but the sheer amount of utility it gets is enough to warrant A.

Really? This is what I got.

328 x 1.5 = 492

239 x 2 = 478

It doesn't outspeed Jolly no, but Adamant? Yes. Is Jolly a thing? I don't know. On the other hand, was I overselling Scarf Celebi? Yes.

Proof: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-225177358

(Look carefully at the background HP bar and match it up with the battle too)

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Oops I accidentally used Modest Celebi, my bad lol. But my point still stands :[

e: i dont get it????? background hp wut

 

[Flamer]

And it switches out and then it needs to get rid of rocks again. Talonflame can't just constantly switch like that. You're also ignoring the parts where your previous points were completely wrong, like Mega Diancie. That's not a valid way to argue.

Why is SR suddenly impossible to remove? Its not as if Im strained to find some form of hazard removal. You are spoilt for choice when it comes to hazard removal. Are you seriously nitpicking because i wrote diancie in the list of things that dont appreciate wisp? If you must know I actually didnt include it initially then saw you mentioned it and put it in hastily. Who actually gives a flying fuck if I ignored something if it isnt relevant.

OK this isn't overly important but Heatran doesn't lose to SD if it's at full, at least enough to get off a Roar or a Toxic, and like I said Stone Edge/Ancient Power Heatran is getting a bit of usage specifically to stop Talonflame beating it. Raikou oenly loses to SD if Talon gets a free turn of setup, otherwise Talon loses.

So youre saying tran has enough room for SR/Lava Plume/Protect/Toxic/Earth Power/Roar/Taunt/Solarbeam/Stone Edge? Heatran is strained enough for moves as is, both stone edge and aincientpower have such a small amount of usage that you would almost never realistically see them. Need a free turn to beat Raikou? again, no shit. Do you actually expect to set up in the face of something that can ohko you? All you need is to set up on the switch, like any sane person would.

You can't compare Talonflame with greninja, Gren was just much better in general. It could have coverage for anything, whereas you know for a fact that Rotom and Quagsire beat Talon, as do a multitude of other things I and others already listed.

I never said talon was anywhere near as borked as gren was, I said it was unpredictable, had a good matchup vs many teams and some other stuff Im too lazy to look back on. If it was, itd be banned as well.

What's wrong about being forced to switch out is that it is quad weak to rocks. You say that a weakness to rocks isn't that bad, when it's just about the one thing keeping Zard Y from A+ and a huge portion of things in BL as opposed to OU. Weakness to rocks is really important in this meta when they're almost always up. Priority roost might save it against Stall where it won't be OHKOed by something, but any well built stall team has a guaranteed Talonflame counter, usually Quagsire, so being able to stay healthy only means so much. Priority Roost is a lot more difficult to use when you're up against offense or balance and you're facing something that can easily OHKO you.

If this was gen 5 I could understand you constantly parroting its Stealth rock weakness as a reason for a lower viability. Its gen 6 though, where some form of hazard removal is literally on every team, regardless of whether the mons on it are weak to SR or not. Idk how you play but hazard removal is one of the things I prioritise most. You also make it seem like Talonflame is going to switch into things it knows can ohko it. In reality we both know it's going to come in on something it threatens and then proceed to hurt things.

AM honestly, the "you need a counter or you lose" argument still applies to Talonflame, its extremely difficult to revenge kill, has a handful of guaranteed counters and is generally hard to play around unless you have very solid checks. Balance might have the best chance against it but there's no denying that it can still find footholds very easily and punish free turns. While I see the reasoning behind it being more comparable to A+ compared to S talonflame has such a small pool of reliable catch all checks. If it is SR keeping it out of S then so be it but its undeniably much better than the majority of A+.

Oh also AM my nomination about Infernape from a while back still stands, its easily better than the rest of C and debatably C+. I cant be fucked finding it atm but idk if you discussed it at all with the ranking team so give me an update or something lol.