Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[SketchUp]

Zard-X should definitely not drop, it is one of the best A+ mons currently and neither do I think Thundy or Mega Slowbro deserves a drop. I can see Azumarill dropping to A but I'll reserve that for another post

Amoonguss from B+ to B: While I am a big fan of Amoonguss and I posted something about him a while ago in another thread, I think a drop is pretty acceptable. Amoonguss passiveness makes him only fit on stall or semistall teams. Pokemon that lose against Amoonguss (Keldeo, Non-BD+Knock Off Azumarill and Mega Diancie) have many other viable switchins on stall teams, all of which are less predictable (Mega Altaria as Keldeo switchin, Jirachi as Mega Diancie switchin, Tentacruel as Azumarill and Keldeo switchin) because they can many moves succesfully where Amoonguss can only use 5 or 6 moves. It can be very difficult to wear down but it's predictability makes it very easy to lure in and kill it / prevent him for sporing you.

Looking at the S rank, I don't think anything deserves to go from A+ to S. Mega Altaria is arguably the best candidate for the rise, but I agree with AM's points that at this point it should stay A+. Tornadus-T going from A- to A is not weird looking at the extreme popularity it got in the past few weeks. The AV set is pretty difficult to wear down and is an awesome offensive switchin to pokemon like Keldeo to force them out with a Hurricane and possible get momentum with U-Turn. The LO set with either Superpower/U-Turn/Knock Off or Heat Wave / Focus Blast or Superpower / Knock Off or U-Turn hit very hard and Regenerator keeps Torn-T healthy. You can't easily switch in early game because you don't know the set and any coverage might hurt you, and moves like HP Ice and Taunt can catch you off-guard. It has some flaws being the difficulty to break some walls because it can't run 6 moves at the same time, it has problems switching into moves like LO Psyshock from Lati@s and combined with rocks it is pretty difficult to stay healthy all the time because you can't just switch in every single time. Despite these flaws it is easily A rank worthy.

 

[LMay]

Stop talking about "DD Altaria has counters" "Special Altaria has counters" "Bulky Altaria beats ZardX but not Scizor" WE KNOW ! Every mon have counters , nobody is broken because broken mon are in Uber right? We want Altaria in S because it's the only mon in OU who have like 6/7 playables sets and counters depends of the set , if you have a Scizor you can't really safely switch because of Fire blast , if you have Heatran you can get EQ (and return on the switch and EQ if ballon) , Lando-T switch on a DD and Altaria can set up another because Lando can't kill Altaria and get smashed by +1 Return , same for Diancie and every fairies if they switch on a DD, Rotom-W is totally countered by HB Altaria, Talonflame lost to rare dragon coverage and +1 Return with the recoil...
That's why i support and really want Altaria in S like AM , because of verstaility and every sets have his weakness but it's an unpredictable mon , like M-Luke before and has better Typing bulk and 2 heal moves, less power yes but set up is not that hard with this mon. So like I said Altaria should move up and can't be compared with ZardX , it's not the same mon at all, Altaria has better bulk , better typing , Zard X has more power yes but SR weakness and recoil on this more powerful move is not that great, if you want longetivity Heatran and a lot of mon wall you, bulky wow is beat by Alt and some other mon.

 

[AM]

Stop talking about "DD Altaria has counters" "Special Altaria has counters" "Bulky Altaria beats ZardX but not Scizor" WE KNOW ! Every mon have counters , nobody is broken because broken mon are in Uber right? We want Altaria in S because it's the only mon in OU who have like 6/7 playables sets and counters depends of the set , if you have a Scizor you can't really safely switch because of Fire blast , if you have Heatran you can get EQ (and return on the switch and EQ if ballon) , Lando-T switch on a DD and Altaria can set up another because Lando can't kill Altaria and get smashed by +1 Return , same for Diancie and every fairies if they switch on a DD, Rotom-W is totally countered by HB Altaria, Talonflame lost to rare dragon coverage and +1 Return with the recoil...
That's why i support and really want Altaria in S like AM , because of verstaility and every sets have his weakness but it's an unpredictable mon , like M-Luke before and has better Typing bulk and 2 heal moves, less power yes but set up is not that hard with this mon. So like I said Altaria should move up and can't be compared with ZardX , it's not the same mon at all, Altaria has better bulk , better typing , Zard X has more power yes but SR weakness and recoil on this more powerful move is not that great, if you want longetivity Heatran and a lot of mon wall you, bulky wow is beat by Alt and some other mon.

If you read my post I actually stated that I'm not a big advocator of m-altaria going to S. The topics of discussion shouldn't be considered my take on somethings ranking more so a baseline for some discussion the team is curious on. Just a heads up really.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

AM nomming diggersby to drop was something I did a while back and here is the post if you want to read it

Diggersby to B+ or B

I know diggersby is a very solid pokemon in ORAS but honestly it is in no way A rank worthy as it has a few flaws and it needs more team support then the other A ranks. The main problems with diggersby is many times it wants some partner to tank priority which in diggersby's case is hit by most priority moves. Also it doesn't offer a ton of team synergy as it lacks alot of resistances. 85/78/78 bulk means it can only take so many hits and has a hard time setting up if SD. Finally 78 speed also hurts it's potential. A lot of times diggersby wishes he was much faster and in a meta game filled with fast wall breakers is pretty unkind to it as it is a glass cannon and most of the new megas bone it. Scarfed sets are also pretty easy to exploit as diggersby's stab moves have immunites and if locked into knock off the enemy could just go in there mega.

Edit: Now to go elaborate a bit more on why luke should move up

 

[DracoNinja]

hi i would like to bring up serperior from B- to B+

simply put, i feel that serp is comparable to mega sceptile as an offensive grass pokemon, although both have their pros and cons. an offensive grass type is amazing currently, especially because of the extremely high usage of bulky waters and grounds (think rotom-w/slowbro/manaphy/hippowdon) which are present on almost every team archetype bar hyper offense and serp takes huge advantage of them by giving itself a lot more offensive presence with a leaf storm contrary boost. serp really only needs dpulse and hp fire/ground to round off its coverage and still has a free moveslot to cripple would-be offensive checks such as talonflame/maltaria with glare or pressure stall with taunt.

I think the biggest advantage serp has over mscept is that it does not take up a mega slot which is huge because serp has amazing synergy with most offensive megas such as mmetagross as they can compensate serp's lack of instant offensive presence without a +2 boost and they also break down each other's checks, for example serp beats bulky waters/grounds while mmetagross nukes p much everything else. msceptile does have a higher satk and speed, so it has more instantaneous offensive presence compared to serp while also having focus blast to hit steels compared to serp's hp fire and STAB Dragon Pulse. That being said, the biggest difference between the two of them imo is that serp plays more of a wallbreaker and enabler of a sweep with taunt (i.e taunt forces opposing heatran to plume it, giving bdrum azu a free bdrum or taunting m altaria and lets mmetagross RP on it) while mscept plays more of a revenge-killer and hit n run attacker.

I honestly feel that serp is a better offensive grass than mscept mainly because there is no opportunity cost when using serp and yet sets up on bulky waters/grounds which are omnipresent in the metagame and it is an asset vs every playstyle. I like to judge serp as a relatively low risk high reward pokemon that deserves more recognition for what it does, while it does have its fair share of checks and counters I feel that they are more easily played around or they can be set-up on by its teammates (look at my bdrum azu and mmetagross example). serp is on par, if not better than mega scept and I don't see a good reason why it should be valued so low at B- when it has the potential to be so much better, perhaps even worthy of A- status (but eh thats pushing it a little)

MScizor from A to A+

I think MScizor's value shouldn't just be decided because of its offensive presence, I feel that it should be A+ because it has lots of valuable defensive synergy on balance/semi stall teams which should be looked into. I've tested and played around with lots of MScizor sets, and I feel that the best MScizor set currently is its sdef set.

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Atk / 180 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Roost

I think this set combines a lot of MScizor's offensive and defensive utility into one set, serving as an excellent check to plenty of offensive powerhouses such as MMetagross, MDiancie, MGardevoir, Latios, Latias, Kyurem-B etc while still being able to play an effective pivot and also a deadly late-game cleaner w/ SD+BP. I feel that MScizor isn't extremely difficult to fit on balance/semi stall builds, they appreciate having a win-condition, a steel check, a fairy check, and dragon check all in one pokemon that can still pivot out and scout opponent's switches while still bringing a lot of defensive utility that synergises amazingly with bulky waters and grounds such as Manaphy and Hippowdon. While it does tend to be in awkward situations vs talonflame/zard y/x/keldeo, I think its access to U-turn + special bulk investment does alleviate that weakness while also being an excellent team player. I feel that this is also another pokemon which should gain more recognition for what it does.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

While Altaria does lack raw power at first. I see him as an ???-Tier threat under the category of support.

When I look at Altaria, I see one of the greatest support mons that ORAS has to offer. Now Altaria doesn't setup rocks or spread status, but what he does is support the team by being able to pivot, wall, cleric, and sweep. In addition, he can attack physically or specially depending on what the team needs. The versatility of this Mega is something no other mon can offer to the extent of PeacockDragon. On top of this, Altaria has everything he needs to take care of most of his counters. Earthquake for Heatran, Fire Blast for Scizor, etc. Look guys, the opponent isn't psychic--they have to guess at what the altria user has for coverage and the set he's running. Unpredictably is one of the big traits of an ???-rank mon, and Altaria is no sitting duck in that category.

In short, Altaria is like mega playdoh. Build it however you want.

Next, Dragon/Fairy is an astounding defensive typing, and Altaria has the stats to use it well. Resistances to Bug, Dark, Electric, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Water and an immunity to dragon all in one slot? Freakin crazy, man. Weak to Fairy, Ice, Poison, Steel? Wait a second, isn't Heatran--one of the best mons in the tier--immune or have a 4x resistance to all that shit? Wait, aren't all steel types basically resistant to Altaria's weaknesses? Well it's not hard to cover Peacock Dragon's weaknesses either. So this mon offers great resistances and has great synergy, awesome.

Fairy is one of the best offensive types in the game, and Altaria has pixilate. So this thing is no slouch in the damage or offensive department.

Finally, the flaws.

1. Base 80 speed - Altaria is rather slow at first, but since he can set up on so many things, it's not like the bird will be stuck there forever. However, the fact that Altaria isn't fast is a valid point. He's trapped in the range where many outspeed him at first. However, I think the fact that Altaria synergizes well with great mons that defeat his counters should be brought up as a point. Tentacruel, Scizor, Heatran, and other mons found on balance, can cover Altaria's weaknesses well.

2. Raped by Fairies, Gengar, Metagross, and Scizor - This is a point I can't refute, These guys are common, and Altara gotta drop his cotton panties whenever these peeps show up. (Sort of ironic how steel-types are both Altaria's best friend and worst enemy at times.)

3. He gets worn down - Altaria does get worn down if you're using it to pivot things. Also, that initial Stealth Rock weakness doesn't help his longevity. However, he does lose it after mega evolving. Hmm...but then again...that initial Base 80 speed means that Altaria will have to take bigger hits.

4. He has a weight problem. - Good lord, peacock dragon needs to hit the damn gym. This thing is more like a turkey than a peacock. Do you see a gut on Metagross? NOPE.

THE VERDICT

Hide

KEEP it A+

 

[Froggyboy]

Hey stfu its chubbiness makes it more adorable

But yeah, I wouldn't mind Altaria staying at A+ or S rank, since both sides have valid arguments, and it's hard for me to decide between them. I'm probably leaning more towards S rank, since I love the damn thing, it has great bulk even uninvested, and hits pretty hard with decent coverage.

 

[grabboy98]

i want to nominate vaporeon for c-rank. i know its somewhat outclassed by alomomola, but while the hp stat of mola is higher than that of vap it doesn't take much because vaporeon heal most uninvested sweeper full and most invested mons can get very much back from the wishes of both(mola and vap). while vap lacks of knock off and regenerator which is a very big disadvantage, vaporeon has some niches over alomomola. for example having the ability of going specially or mixed defensive is very nice. although vaporeon has access to three moves that are good for a cleric. heal bell is good so you don't have to worry of status is very big imo. while alomomola can be set up bait for things like mega charizard x or mega altaria vap has access to roar. while not being set up bait, it goes well with entry hazards like sr too. baton pass is also worth to mention because if a pokemon cant take a hit anymore you can switch out after your opponent attacked, which is a nice option to pass wishes more effectively.

sorry if i have some mistakes i'm not that good in english

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

i want to nominate vaporeon for c-rank. i know its somewhat outclassed by alomomola, but while the hp stat of mola is higher than that of vap it doesn't take much because vaporeon heal most uninvested sweeper full and most invested mons can get very much back from the wishes of both(mola and vap). while vap lacks of knock off and regenerator which is a very big disadvantage, vaporeon has some niches over alomomola. for example having the ability of going specially or mixed defensive is very nice. although vaporeon has access to three moves that are good for a cleric. heal bell is good so you don't have to worry of status is very big imo. while alomomola can be set up bait for things like mega charizard x or mega altaria vap has access to roar. while not being set up bait, it goes well with entry hazards like sr too. baton pass is also worth to mention because if a pokemon cant take a hit anymore you can switch out after your opponent attacked, which is a nice option to pass wishes more effectively.

sorry if i have some mistakes i'm not that good in english

The only things that Vaporeon has over Alomomola are Roar, Heal Bell, and Baton Pass. The bigger issue is where to fit the moves. You need Wish and Protect, so you have two moves left. If you drop Scald, then 1 Taunt gives your opponent a free turn when you switch, which Alomomola can at least heal off prior damage taken on the switch. If you keep Scald, then you have 1 move slot left. Baton Pass gives you virtually no advantage over a Regenerator switch, and Roar will make you much easier to wear down into a sweeper's range for a KO. Heal Bell is about the only noteworthy thing, but you'll still be set-up bait for any set-up sweeper. There's just no real reason to use Vaporeon in OU when there are better defensive Water mons, better Clerics, and when Alomomola is just an overall better Wish passer.

 

[tigers jaw]

Mega Altaria for S is something I can really see. I actually think it's pretty broken, but that's for another time and another thread.

The combination of Special Balance breaker w/Eq, Physical Balance Breaker w/Fire Blast, DD, Cleric, and innovations such as Haze and Facade DD make it a huge threat, and incredibly hard to prepare for and switch into. I've spoken on the utility that Defensive/Cleric sets provide for Balance and Semi-stall before when people were questioning its ranking at A+, I'll just link it here.

It isn't weak, as stated previously, hitting harder than Azumarill. Nor are Fairies and Steel-types the bane of its existence, seeing as literally none of the relevant ones dare to switch into the 3 attacks sets, other than like, already-Mega Evolved Metagross and SpD Jirachi. Its DD sets are incredibly hard to stop if defensively invested (you do not need to run mono-attacking if you have defensive investment, remember), as Scarf Latios, Lando-T, and Keldeo are complete setup fodder, which is pretty laughable.

The sheer versatility & unpredictability, along with the utility of defensive sets it has pushes it ahead of all the other A+ Pokémon, imo.

 

[astroboy]

only commenting on the first two...cause yeah

Renominating Azumarill to drop from A+ to A/A-.

Azumarill doesn't deserve being A+, the AV set lost a lot of utility since greninja got gunk shot then got banned, and checking Keldeo is cool...until the Choice dropped and the subcm got a lot of popularity. Being extremely weak to tspikes/spikes and having no recovery is also a huge flaw. In this metagame dominated by Balanced teams, Azumarill will have a really tough time to pull through, a lot of mons are faster than 218 and can tank a +6 aqua-jet for the BD set, like Altaria, Rotom-w, Venusaur, Celebi, and a mid-life Azumarill is not the hardest thing to kill, SpecsKeldeo can kill it with hpump iirc lol. The CB might be the best set and it's not worth an A+ rank which is really high imo.

what does greninja have to do with azumarills current placement? why do you acknowledge the choice sets arent common on keldeo anymore, but then say "SpecsKeldeo can kill it with hpump iirc lol"? just because it lost its ability to reliably check keldeo, it still handles tons of common threats rn, like mixed/special altaria, diancie, lando-i, sableye, and the latis. azu should stay where it is imo, and theres no chance of it going to a- lol

Nominating Mega-Slowbro to drop to rank A, or Slowbro...basically, Slowbro and Mega-Slowbro should be in the same rank.

I think that Slowbro and M-Slowbro are 2 sides of the same coin. Mega-Slowbro is hard to rank because it is pretty threatening but i find it hard to find in a team. A best fit for him is balanced, where you kinda want to put Altaria because of how godlike it is, or even mons like Venusaur are a priority in terms of Megas. Slowbro on the other hand is amazing with regeneration, a great check to a lot of things in the metagame like Gross GKless and Subcm Keldeo. M-slowbro is also a bit hard to pull-off in a metagame mixed between really hard hitters like Lando-i / Gengar and balanced teams with toxic spikes / Unaware clefable / CM Sableye, Slowbro is prefered as a support for that matter.

by this logic, thundy-i and thundy-t should be in the same rank. slowbro and mega slowbro have totally different roles. slowbro is a pivot that spreads status while being able to easily with regen and slack off, whereas megabro is an incredibly bulky wincon for balance/stall teams. and yes, m-bro has problems with strong special attackers, but if it didn't it would be s and probably hella broken. mega slowbro is a fairly prepared for mon, but its defintely a+ for its ability to be a great bulky set up sweeper.

tl:dr i don't have badges, my opinion doesn't count

the edge

 

[Clone]

AM I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the fact that its hard to make diggs a win condition when oftentimes it's not supposed to be one. Diggs' main role on a team is to wallbreak and plow through slower teams, which it does an awesome job at. Then another sweeper, say SD Mega Scizor, cleans up the mess. I don't agree with dropping Diggs, and I especially don't agree with dropping him for the wrong reasons. Diggs is a great wallbreaker that has insane power and doesn't take up a mega slot, which is a big deal in this metagame. Furthermore, diggs has really good STAB coverage and what it doesn't hit, it has a coverage move for. Just taking its STABs into account, diggs is able to 2HKO pretty much any fat mon not names Skarmory, PhysDef Cress, or PhysDef Hippo (not entirely sure about this one tho), which leaves very few things that are capable of switching into it. Additionally, it has swords dance, which means that mons that could take a hit and kill it with a SE attack now have to fear a +2 return, which hits incredible hard. Unaware mons can't even beat it because both quag and clef are 2HKOed by adamant LO return (quag actually has a chance of avoiding the 2HKO, but it cannot switch in nor can it win 1v1 b/c of its speed).

It does struggle against offensive teams more, which is a valid concern, but it does act the same way as Mega Gardevoir does vs. offense: it can be a pain to get in, but once it is, very few things will appreciate taking a Return. It even has quick attack to deal with weakened faster mons, which is especially important when facing an opposing sweeper that you couldn't kill fast enough. Quick Attack hits every relevant boosting sweeper neutrally barring Diancie and Mega Scizor. Obviously, it's mediocre speed tier does mean that it's often outsped and relies on quick attack often, so I still believe that it's not that great vs. offense. However, diggs puts in a lot of work when facing balance teams, and given their prominence in the meta as of now, I don't see a reason for it to drop. A- is perfectly fine for it. It's pretty anti meta and it has a good matchup vs. the bulk of teams out there.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

People who want MAlt for S:
Hey guys this thing has the most amazing bulk and its mixed set is soo good and its so broken i declare a suspect lol
Cmon guys, why are you overselling it? The Mixed set (which sacrifices Heal Bell if it wants to run EQ/Flamethrower) loses out on speed and is more underwhelming then its DD set. It's DD sets arent crazy either, but i said why.

It undeniably does work against Sub sweepers and balance, but its very weak against Offense, which is arguably one of the better playstyles.
I just feel like people are forgetting about all of the Steel's in the metagame and a whole playstyle when they put MAlt to S... Its good but its defo not S rank at all.

 

[dadoux]

only commenting on the first two...cause yeah

what does greninja have to do with azumarills current placement? why do you acknowledge the choice sets arent common on keldeo anymore, but then say "SpecsKeldeo can kill it with hpump iirc lol"? just because it lost its ability to reliably check keldeo, it still handles tons of common threats rn, like mixed/special altaria, diancie, lando-i, sableye, and the latis. azu should stay where it is imo, and theres no chance of it going to a- lol

by this logic, thundy-i and thundy-t should be in the same rank. slowbro and mega slowbro have totally different roles. slowbro is a pivot that spreads status while being able to easily with regen and slack off, whereas megabro is an incredibly bulky wincon for balance/stall teams. and yes, m-bro has problems with strong special attackers, but if it didn't it would be s and probably hella broken. mega slowbro is a fairly prepared for mon, but its defintely a+ for its ability to be a great bulky set up sweeper.


the edge

-AV Azumarill was played because it was a good check to Greninja/Latios/Keldeo in offense in the first place, Keldeo got subcm/scald in every set, Latios has psyshock to 2hko every time and Greninja got banned, the AV lost a crazy amount of value, you can't deny it. It doesn't check Sableye because wow, Lando-i can sludge wave / earth power, switch and then kill it next time, Diancie can be at +1 def with diamant storm so it's not really a safe answer and DT does a good chunk to you since Azumarill is gonna be weakened down after a while with SR / taking hits for sure (especially if Keldeo burns you, aqua-jet won't do crap), Latios 2HKO's easily with psyshock / tbolt. A rank, A+ is way too much. Your Keldeo can be specs and finish off BD azumarill, but you can't be sure that the opposing Keldeo is specs.
-Thund-i and Thund-T are not similar at all, what i was saying was that both are played in balanced and where Mega-slowbro can be a good win condition, you'd rather have normal Slowbro or Altaria/Venusaur as a support with an other win condition (M-gardevoir can be a good mega-win condition too), M-Slowbro doesn't deserve to be A+ at all.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Assault Vest Azumarill stopped being a good Greninja check the moment ORAS was released and everyone started running Gunk Shot, so no, the Assault Vest set didn't lose a crazy amount of value when Greninja was banned because it hadn't been able to switch safely into most Greninjas for months.

EDIT@below: In that case, there's really no point in mentioning Greninja's ban at all. If anything, that helped Azumarill slightly since that's one less thing that can revenge kill it.

 

[dadoux]

That's why i said "it got gunk shot then it got banned", Azumarill was a Greninja check before ORAS.

 

[tigers jaw]

People who want MAlt for S:
Hey guys this thing has the most amazing bulk and its mixed set is soo good and its so broken i declare a suspect lol
Cmon guys, why are you overselling it? The Mixed set (which sacrifices Heal Bell if it wants to run EQ/Flamethrower) loses out on speed and is more underwhelming then its DD set. It's DD sets arent crazy either, but i said why.

It undeniably does work against Sub sweepers and balance, but its very weak against Offense, which is arguably one of the better playstyles.
I just feel like people are forgetting about all of the Steel's in the metagame and a whole playstyle when they put MAlt to S... Its good but its defo not S rank at all.

You know, usually I don't reply to terrible, poorly-worded and thought-out posts, but seeing as you were obviously mocking me so maturely I'll give it a go.

Mixed sets aren't used for beating offence, obviously. They're use for breaking common balance cores such as Ferro/Tran/Slowbro etc. You're interpreting the 3 attacks Roost sets poorly if you think that lacking Heal Bell and not having five move slots is a bad thing. Tip: it isn't. Look at it in a sense that Heal Bell is an option as long as you are running one of MAlt's other sets, which serves a completely different role than 3 attacks. Why on earth should I care about not having Heal Bell if I'm using it as an offensive rather than defensive Pokémon?

Then we come to your second point about the Pokémon having a bad matchup vs. offence, yet you mentioned the DD set earlier? What? Really, what do you think the point of boosting both Attack and Speed is? DD isn't even underwhelming, lol, it's agreed to be one of the best, if not the best Dragon Dancer in the tier, and is incredibly hard to reliably revenge kill outside of CB Scizor. It sets up on loads of stuff thanks to the big bulk, great typing, and hits as hard as hell thanks to Pixilate.

As for the "muh Steels :(", check my last post over again.

Tl;dr I'm not using Mixed Roost to beat Offence, just as I'm not using DD to beat Balance.

 

[Dread Arceus]

That's why i said "it got gunk shot then it got banned", Azumarill was a Greninja check before ORAS.

Azumarill was always a terrible Greninja check, even in late XY Greninja was running GK, which could 2HKO Azu after rocks. Not to mention Azu got overtaxed, trying to do damage but stay healthy enough to take hits, and ended up failing either to beat Greninja or to do anything besides be Gren's bitch. At the end of the day, Azumarill was like barbed wire fence: you put it up to protect you and make you feel safe, but in reality it's not doing a damn thing.
/rant end

 

[dadoux]

Greninja was hp grass for rotom, GK was absolutely garbage and not played a lot, it was filler, and Azumarill was still a decent check to Greninja, being able to switch into Dark pulse / Hp fire / Ice beam / Hpump. Think a bit, if Hp grass was played, that was precisely to beat some of Greninja's checks right?

 

[pika pal]

Regarding Azumarill, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing it drop to A. While its power is still very high and its STABs cover a good deal, I just can't say I've found myself running into it as something I have to watch for a specific weakness to. Almost any team I've made with a decently bulky Water, Grass, or not Heatran-Steel type finds itself able to deal with Azumarill easily enough either with a faster 2HKO while resisting Aqua Jet or just crippling it with a status.

And for the more obvious (if likely considered) point, Mega Metagross is still here and as effective as ever, and he's arguably one of the most splashable mons for offensive or balance teams on top of being an Azu check with his high bulk. I'm also not sure if this has changed recently, but Rotom-W was also high in usage last I checked, and that thing is easy to slap on a lot of teams for bulk, Voltturn, and Bird-Checking, and most of the stuff he creeps puts him ahead of Azu to burn or VS out.


I don't want to claim I'm knowledgeable enough for final say. I could very well be unaware of something, but I'll just say Azumarill dropping I would not be opposed or surprised by. Besides, not like A is a particularly bad rank for it as a Wallbreaker/late game sweeper (w/ BD).

 

[astroboy]

-AV Azumarill was played because it was a good check to Greninja/Latios/Keldeo in offense in the first place, Keldeo got subcm/scald in every set, Latios has psyshock to 2hko every time and Greninja got banned, the AV lost a crazy amount of value, you can't deny it. It doesn't check Sableye because wow, Lando-i can sludge wave / earth power, switch and then kill it next time, Diancie can be at +1 def with diamant storm so it's not really a safe answer and DT does a good chunk to you since Azumarill is gonna be weakened down after a while with SR / taking hits for sure (especially if Keldeo burns you, aqua-jet won't do crap), Latios 2HKO's easily with psyshock / tbolt. A rank, A+ is way too much. Your Keldeo can be specs and finish off BD azumarill, but you can't be sure that the opposing Keldeo is specs.
-Thund-i and Thund-T are not similar at all, what i was saying was that both are played in balanced and where Mega-slowbro can be a good win condition, you'd rather have normal Slowbro or Altaria/Venusaur as a support with an other win condition (M-gardevoir can be a good mega-win condition too), M-Slowbro doesn't deserve to be A+ at all.

i find it odd how you acknowledge that it checked keldeo/latios, but deny it checks them now. latios and keldeo havent gained anything? keldeo's always had scald, and latios has always run psyshock (no one runs tbolt lol)
relying on a 50% chance to get a defense raise isn't really good reasoning for anything to deny it as a check? and anything that counters/checks anything can always switch out, but it doesnt always have that option? that's the whole thing about checks and counters. a partner for a mon can easily have something to handle a check or counter to another mon, but that doesnt change that it still checks or counters the mon.
if av were azu's only viable set, then it would be a or a-, but its not. it has BD and CB aswell, which are both probably better sets. this also adds a layer of unpredictability, as if you think an azu might be banded, you play around it as if it is one. but if you predict wrong and it's bd, you'll probably have to sack something or atleast get something else weakened.
and seriously, why do you keep mentioning that "keldeo got subcm/scald in every set" but you mention the specs set at the end? am i running subcm on my specs keldeo? am i that prepared for trick? :/

i am aware that thundy-i and thundy-t aren't similar in their roles, but neither are slowbro and megabro. and that's cool that other things are win cons, but megabro is unique in its tremendous defense stat, good special attack, good set-up options to better suit your team, and decent defensive typing. i don't understand the rest of what you said so i dont know what to say to it.

 

[firehusky]

Have some free time, so I'll give my thoughts on Feraligatr's placement.

Feraligatr to B- / B

Feraligatr recently received Sheer Force, turning it into a decent set up sweeper with solid offensive stats, thanks to Life Orb + Sheer Force. Feraligatr has two good sets, DD and SD. Feraligatr's speed tier isn't too bad as a Dragon Dancer, and is a great win condition against more both offensive teams and balanced teams. SD is very good against slower defensive teams. Feraligatr also has access to Aqua Jet, which is pretty cool. Aqua Jet is a fantastic cleaning tool; once Feraligatr obtains a few boosts, it can easily sweep teams with Aqua Jet alone. Feraligatr also has decent coverage, Crunch and Ice Punch both benefit from Sheer Force, while Dark + Water coverage is good neutral coverage. Speaking of Water + Dark type coverage, what about Crawdaunt?

Crawdaunt is quite comparable to Feraligatr. Both are strong wallbreakers (Crawdaunt is stronger though), Water-STAB, and often run SD. Let's discuss their pros and cons. Crawdaunt's main advantage of Feraligatr is it's secondary Dark-type. This gives it Adaptability Knock Off, making it a very efficient wallbreaker, as it has 2 STABs to work with. Granted, Feraligatr gets Crunch, but it's not boosted by STAB, making it walled by many more Pokemon that Crawdaunt. Crawdaunt also hits much harder. Onto Feraligatr. Feraligatr has better base speed, and can viably run two boosting sets, both DD and SD. (DD Crawdaunt kinda sucks in this meta as it's speed tier is just way too bad, and it appreciates the power provided by SD over speed). This makes Feraligatr harder to prepare for. Feraligatr also has respectable bulky for such an offensive Pokemon. Crawdaunt is super super frail, and even resisted hits can often 2HKO it, or put a dent in it. Feraligatr actually has the bulk to stomach some weaker super effective moves, giving it more switch in opportunities and set up opportunities. Feraligatr also doesn't struggle as much as Crawdaunt against offense, as it has respectable speed and can viably run Dragon Dance. Crawdaunt really excels against defensive teams, where it's extra power is very helpful, but Feraligatr can fare well against a multitude of playstyles.

If you were too lazy to read that, here's a tl;dr version:

Key differences between Crawdaunt and Feraligatr

Crawdaunt:
Hits harder
Secondary typing makes it a much more efficient wallbreaker
Excels are tearing down slower, defensive teams

Feraligatr:
Better base speed
Two viable boosting sets (DD and SD) compared to Crawdaunt, which only has 1 good boosting set (SD)
Respectable bulk means more switch in opportunities and set up opportunities
Doesn't struggle that much against offensive teams thanks to dragon dance

As you can see, Crawdaunt and Feraligatr are pretty much on the same level, so I think Feraligatrs placement should be somewhere around Crawdaunts, so B or B- seems fine to me.

 

[heritage]

Alright, I've been meaning to bring this up for a while now but I just haven't had the time.

Houndoom (Mega) to B+

Recently, I've been testing out Mega Houndoom on the ladder, and it is truly an underrated threat. With Metagross staying in OU, Houndoom has risen as a great check to it. Mega Houndoom absolutely eats stall, and does great against balance as well. After a Nasty Plot, Houndoom's Special Attack raises to terrifying levels. Combine this with a great 115 Speed stat after Mega Evolving, allowing Houndoom to outspeed lots of things such as Gengar, Mega Metagross and Latios. Houndoom's dual typing is also fantastic, leaving it only to be walled by Azumarill, Keldeo, Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados. A lot of these switch ins, Tyranitar, Gyarados and Azumarill in particular, are easily handled with Will-O-Wisp. Pokemon such as Heatran and Chansey just end up being set-up fodder after a Taunt. Houndoom also has pretty deceiving bulk, as 75 / 90 / 90 actually isn't too terrible for a sweeper. Not to mention, before Mega Evolving, Houndoom posses a fantastic ability in Flash Fire, giving it plently of switch ins to things like defensive Heatran. Sadly, Houndoom does have a rather nasty weakness to Stealth Rock, but that's handled pretty easily. Overall, Houndoom is a better late game sweeper than most Pokémon in the tier (And it's certainly better than Mega Sceptile and Hawlucha) and warrants a rise.

Calcs before a Nasty Plot

252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 130-154 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 133-157 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Calcs after a Nasty Plot

This is where the fun begins
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 201-237 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 206-243 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 337-397 (110.8 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 182-214 (62.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 430-507 (102.3 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 261-307 (86.1 - 101.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 246-289 (76.6 - 90%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 246-289 (60.8 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Also, about Altaria to S. I was the person who first brought this up. I made a few comments here and there about how diverse and unpredictable it can be to face. It's absolutely terrifying to switch in to since you don't know what it's going to have. I support it going to S, but I'll make a post about that later.

 

[firehusky]

To be honest, I'm not really a big fan of Mega Houndoom rising. Keldeo and Tyranitar are extremely common right now, and although Ttar can be handled by Will-O-Wisp, then Houndoom won't be able to run Nasty Plot or Taunt. Besides Mega Sableye and Mega Metagross, metagame trends have not been very good for it. SubCM Keldeo is extremely popular, rain offense is on the rise, Scarf Landorus-T, MLop, Mega Diancie + Mega Altaria everywhere. Mega Houndoom just has way too many checks and counters, that are all very common. Mega Houndoom certainly fares well against stall teams, but it's match up against offense isn't that good. Mega Houndoom's opportunity cost is also pretty large. As a late game sweeper, RP Lando-I and Mega Diancie are all perfectly fine choices. As a wallbreaker, Zard Y and Mega Gardevoir are all much more powerful.

Houndoom is a cool Pokemon, don't get me wrong, and it's pretty good too, but it just has so many checks and counters that are literally everywhere. It's opportunity cost is also a factor to consider; by using Mega Houndoom, you can't use arguably better megas such as Altaria, Gyarados, Zard X, etc. Mega Houndoom is also in a "jack of all trades, master of none". It's an effective stallbreaker, wallbreaker, and set up sweeper, but as a wallbreaker, Zard Y and MGarde hit harder, and as a lategame sweeper, Lando-I and Diancie are also perfectly fine contenders for the job.

 

[AM]

I don't agree with an M-Houndoom raise at all. It's plagued by a bunch of issues and just cause it can burn something on the switch in is not handling the issues it has, it's only slowing them down to the inevitable aftermath that is M-Houndoom losing due to its poor defensive stats. I really don't understand some of the recent arguments that go along the lines of "for a sweeper it has decent bulk" when this decent bulk is an illusion that falls flat due to typing, realistic scenarios that take place in the meta, and these sweepers aren't designed to be stomaching a hit to the extent that is being described. M-Houndooms bulk is actually not that fantastic and I'm baffled as to how this becomes a relevant point for offensive threats when describing their positive attributes, sort of like saying Latios has solid bulk with its 80 HP / 80 Def / 110 SpDef when anybody who's used Latios would know this isn't and a lot of times doesn't seem like the case.

M-Houndoom is normally a Pokemon that necessitates a solid amount of support to get it going or is successful based on positive match-ups, some that can be quite difficult to find in the current meta-game. M-Houndoom went B in the first place for being a check to M-Sableye stall teams, which I think by now is sort of an over exaggeration. It shouldn't go up and the thought of it being any higher than B at this point is an over exaggeration of its abilities.