Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[SketchUp]

A little addition on firehusky's post:
Ptyra You are comparing the Slack Off 2 Atks Slowbro set with the Crocune set while you are not discussing any flaws the Slack Off CM 2 Atks has which Suicune doesn't have such as a big weakness to Toxic. Outside of this the Crobro set also isn't necessarily better than Crocune because due to the lack of Leftovers recovery it is much weaker to residual damage like Spikes, Leech Seed and Sandstorm so it is forced more often to use Rest than Suicune. Also, having 5 weaknesses is really annoying because there are many pokemon that can switch into a Slowbro after it used Rest because they have a STAB attack which hits Slowbro super effective (and where Suicune takes neutral damage from) so Slowbro is actually much more reliant to get the 1/3rd chance of picking Scald when using Sleep Talk than Suicune is.

 

[Ptyra]

A little addition on firehusky's post:
Ptyra You are comparing the Slack Off 2 Atks Slowbro set with the Crocune set while you are not discussing any flaws the Slack Off CM 2 Atks has which Suicune doesn't have such as a big weakness to Toxic. Outside of this the Crobro set also isn't necessarily better than Crocune because due to the lack of Leftovers recovery it is much weaker to residual damage like Spikes, Leech Seed and Sandstorm so it is forced more often to use Rest than Suicune. Also, having 5 weaknesses is really annoying because there are many pokemon that can switch into a Slowbro after it used Rest because they have a STAB attack which hits Slowbro super effective (and where Suicune takes neutral damage from) so Slowbro is actually much more reliant to get the 1/3rd chance of picking Scald when using Sleep Talk than Suicune is.

Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't talking about Mega Slowbro. I just said defensively Slowbro is a better choice than Suicune. I explained in my post the weaknesses that has Slowbro over Suicune don't matter very much because Suicune can't wall proprely Ghost-types, most Dark-types without Scald burn and some Bug-types (Mega Heracross and Offensive Mega Scizor). Slowbro tanks U-turn from Tornadus-T and Landorus-T also, but ofc Suicune tanks U-turn better than Slowbro.
And as a late-game cleaner, Suicune has just too much ways to be handled so the opportunities to set up are hard to find. Suicune is a quite good late-game cleaner, but he requires a lot of support to remove all his checks.


EDIT
Now I understand why people thinks Suicune is good. I've underrated Suicune, but I still think he's not B+ material because he relies too much on Rest Talk and Scald burn.

 

[firehusky]

The most relevant ghost type, gengar, fails to guarantee a 2HKO on Suicune with SR up with sludge wave; after surviving the first one, suicune sets up a CM and then proceeds to rest and use gengar as set up bait. Obviously if gengar is carrying taunt, suicune will lose to it, but any other variant (such as icy wind, substitute, etc.) will lose to suicune. Dark-types such as bisharp take a huge risk trying to set up against suicune as scald does around 43%, while +2 knock off is only a 2HKO. You also have to factor in life orb recoil too (since Knock is a 2HKO bisharp loses 20% of its health), so 43 x = 86 + 20% so bisharp actually kills itself when trying to defeat suicune, and this isn't even factoring in the chance that scald burns.

 

[BlueLobster]

Suicune is also beaten by Ghost-types, most Dark-types without Scald burn and some Bug-types (Mega Heracross and Offensive Mega Scizor)

Err... what?

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 179-212 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 121-142 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 111-132 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- 68.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 100-118 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (2HKO after rocks damage, can 2HKO after LO)
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 106-126 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

lets face it, Suicune's probably going to be at least +1, in which case both scald clacs are 2HKOs and Gengar can't even 2HKO after rocks at +1. Suicune can't really set up on Gengar due to risking dying from poison or being taunted, but Gar can't stop it at +1, let alone "beat" it.

Edit for below:
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

A 1V1 between them can go either way, but remember a 30% chance isn't really considered hax, and Bish kills itself with LO unless it's a lum/black glasses variant.

 

[Ptyra]

Bisharp is not going to switch in Suicune anyway, but Suicune can't swicth in Bisharp neither and in 1v1 situation, SD Bisharp wins if not haxx.
The most common set of Gengar is LO 3 Attacks + Taunt, and Gengar has 80% to chance 2HKO him with Sludge Wave after SR, what is pretty big.

My formulation was wrong, I should have said something like "Suicune loses in 1v1" or "Suicune can't wall them proprely".

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

The most common set of Gengar is LO 3 Attacks + Taunt, and Gengar has 80% to chance 2HKO him with Sludge Wave after SR, what is pretty big.

Why would I be switching Suicune into Gengar in the first place? Suicune is meant to check and set-up on physical attackers, not strong special attackers.

 

[Alfalfa]

Ptyra are you seriously suggesting that Suicune should move down a rank, to the same rank with Alomomola, Mandibuzz, and Mega Tyranitar in it? You are looking at Suicune from the wrong perspective: there are certain Pokemon that Mega Slowbro has issues setting up on with that Suicune doesn't, such as Scizor, Mega Sableye, anything with status, and Choice Band Tyranitar. While the same thing could be said in reverse, Suicune also gives you a lot more flexibility in teambuilding due to not taking up a Mega Slot, and it is a lot less susceptible to passive damage than Mega Slowbro is due to access to Leftovers. Suicune is played as a bulky water before it is played as a win condition in a match, and as a bulky water, putting it on the same rank as Alomomola and Mandibuzz is not an accurate representation of Suicune's role in the metagame. There are just some teams that Suicune fits on that Mega Slowbro does not, and you just do not want to admit that.

 

[bludz]

Alfalfa Suicune is in B+ so moving down a sub-rank wouldn't put it in B-. IMO it never really deserved to rise from B to B+ and I think it should go back down to B which is where I think it fits better. It really just isn't a threat on the level of Weavile, Victini, Mega Heracross, Dragonite, and most of the rest of B+ to me.

 

[FaZeBoo]

As a common user of suicune, i do agree with the stay of suicune. It walls great offensive physical types, as well as some strong special attackers when set up or even not calm minded. Not even a LO Weavile, who is one of the hardest hitters in OU right now, cant do too much to cune.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 129-152 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Same goes with Bisharp
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 133-156 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- 2.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 87-105 (21.5 - 25.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 4HKO (no item)
+ 2 is at-
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 263-309 (65 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
and burned, +2 252 Atk Life Orb burned Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 131-155 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
so yeah, also mons like keldeo dont appreciate cune, and starmie w/out tbolt (which i usually dont see) gets walled.
However, suicune cant do things back really, so B+ rn is a good spot

 

[p2]

---> B+ or A-

This seems to have slipped under the radar, but how is Serp still in B? B+ at the very least but it could probably go straight to A-. It pairs well with a lot of current heavy hitters because it breaks down bulky Waters and Grounds types easily (for example pressuring Slowbro and Hippo for Char-X). Offensive Grass types are pretty valuable when building and Serp is right up there with the best of them., thanks to its great speed tier and surprising bulk. It should also rise because its one of those threats that you have to have a game plan for, and you it is not good if you Serp weak mostly due to the fact it is difficult to play around because its most spammable STAB gives it a +2 boost. And then there is the utility pool which can cripple common checks and counters with Knock Off and Glare. Chansey hates possibly losing the Eviolite, and Talonflame sure as heck doesn't want to be paralyzed. Does it have issues? It has to pick between different Hidden Powers and there will always be something that its coverage can't hit, but it still applies an insane amount of pressure. Oh yeah, it is more useable and prominent in OU than everything in B and probably everything in B+. Seriously, are Dragonite, Togekiss, Chesnaught, or Tentacruel more viable than Serp? I'm gonna say no.

I'd actually push for it to go up to A-.

Serperior is just such a good pokemon in OU, where a fast offensive Grass type has been wanted for a while, that can literally dismantle teams without Togekiss, Tornadus-T, Talonflame, Heatran or Mega Altaria. It's coverage is an issue, but it's a lot smaller than people make it out to be as Grass/Fire/Dragon has great neutral coverage (It's only stopped by MAltaria or Heatran). On top of it's coverage, it has an amazing status movepool, which allows it to shit on offensive teams even more ie Glare or Substitute or to give Stall teams hell with Taunt + Synthesis. Because of it's 113 speed, it outspeeds most of the metagame, which allows it to accumulate boosts easily and quickly, which turns it into a massive offensive threat that's actually pretty difficult to straight up OHKO.

The only things are, Tornadus-T is rising in usage really quickly because people are now realizing how good it is (I'd actually nom it for A+, but I'll leave that for later) and Torn-T is a solid hard counter to Serperior and stops it easily. Plus, Leaf Storm has ass for PP, so it really limited turns for setting up and really bulky teams can burn that out pretty quickly.
But otherwise, Serperior is a really solid offensive mon right now and it's just so easy to through onto offensive cores because it can do so much by itself and I think people are just doubting how dangerous this thing really is.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

I heavily disagree with serperior for A- actually. It's a good pokemon in OU but people really over exaggerate it's capabilities. Grass/Dragon/Fire is good neutral coverage but it's problem is it wants to hit super effectively since it's coverage is pretty weak. Plus Grass is a poor attacking type simply because how much resists it and even with the coverage to hit resists it's not gonna do that much. Also taunt + synthesis is hell for stall but it can only run 1 coverage meaning no matter what you're trampled on by something really nasty. It really can't do much by itself since it loses to many common threats which is never a good thing. In fact I wouldn't mind if it went to B+ but A- is too generous to be honest.

 

[Firebird101]

I heavily disagree with serperior for A- actually. It's a good pokemon in OU but people really over exaggerate it's capabilities. Grass/Dragon/Fire is good neutral coverage but it's problem is it wants to hit super effectively since it's coverage is pretty weak. Plus Grass is a poor attacking type simply because how much resists it and even with the coverage to hit resists it's not gonna do that much. Also taunt + synthesis is hell for stall but it can only run 1 coverage meaning no matter what you're trampled on by something really nasty. It really can't do much by itself since it loses to many common threats which is never a good thing. In fact I wouldn't mind if it went to B+ but A- is too generous to be honest.

Grass is a mediocre offense typing but contrary leaf storm is still extremely dangerous and Serperior can quickly end games with it's power alone. Because of this people are forced to switch their checks into it asap making it easy to catch them with knock off or glare on the switch. Serperior is a snowball that turns into a avalanche in few turns and no play-style has any particular advantage against Serperior. Granted, rise to A- is debatable but I think it should be B+ at the very least.

 

[p2]

I heavily disagree with serperior for A- actually. It's a good pokemon in OU but people really over exaggerate it's capabilities. Grass/Dragon/Fire is good neutral coverage but it's problem is it wants to hit super effectively since it's coverage is pretty weak. Plus Grass is a poor attacking type simply because how much resists it and even with the coverage to hit resists it's not gonna do that much. Also taunt + synthesis is hell for stall but it can only run 1 coverage meaning no matter what you're trampled on by something really nasty. It really can't do much by itself since it loses to many common threats which is never a good thing. In fact I wouldn't mind if it went to B+ but A- is too generous to be honest.

You can say that Grass is a poor attacking type, and while that is true, even unboosted Leaf Storm still puts a nice dent into stuff. Even bulky resists like Mega Metagross easily lose over 25% HP from switching in on a Leaf Storm and a +2 one does 50%, and it even has a chance of getting 2HKO'd by Life Orb variants, which is simply amazing on it's own. The fact that Serperior can break one of offenses bulkiest pokemon is just insane.

And not to mention, some variants of Mega Altaria can actually be broken down by LO sets aswell, Serperior has that much power after a boost and simply put, it just destroys teams lacking a revenge killer or Talonflame, Heatran, MAlt, MVenu or Torn-T.

 

[Empress]

Because the we seem to have come to a consensus on the slate, here's a nom that I had in mind.
Lucario: B- to C+

Luke is a great late-game cleaner in theory, but as far as I have seen, it just doesn't get the job done well enough most of the time. Due to its frailty and low Speed, it basically must enter the battlefield on a free switch, and it needs a lot of support to set up in the first place. Don't get me wrong- a +2 LO boosted Extreme Speed hits hard against anything that doesn't resist it, and the ability to bypass opposing priority is nice as well. However, it must be very late in the game for Lucario to sweep effectively because it absolutely needs its checks broken down before it can set up an SD. This is also why it can't wallbreak in practice as effectively as it does on paper; when it's that early in the game, Lucario's checks are still fresh, so they can easily switch into it and either take a +2 Extreme Speed and retaliate or force it out of the battlefield outright. All in all, Luke is one of those mons that possesses great sweeping ability on paper, but due to its low Speed and frailty, it has a much harder time at doing so in practice. Let's look at the B and C rank descriptions, too.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

I wouldn't call Lucario "great" in the OU metagame; it lacks the stats to do its intended job effectively, which puts a damper on its otherwise impressive sweeping and wallbreaking potential. It needs a massive amount of offensive support to clean up like it's supposed to, and it faces competition from other dedicated late-game cleaners. Two late-game cleaners that are on the teams that Lucario normally finds a home on include Talonflame and Serperior, both of which give Luke significant competition for a spot on your hyper offense squad.

Whether you agree or disagree, feel free to share your opinions. I look forward to hearing what you guys think!

EDIT: Wow I managed to TL;DR this one. Sorry guys.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Because the we seem to have come to a consensus on the slate, here's a nom that I had in mind.
Lucario: B- to C+

Luke is a great late-game cleaner in theory, but as far as I have seen, it just doesn't get the job done well enough most of the time. Due to its frailty and low Speed, it basically must enter the battlefield on a free switch, and it needs a lot of support to set up in the first place. Don't get me wrong- a +2 LO boosted Extreme Speed hits hard against anything that doesn't resist it, and the ability to bypass opposing priority is nice as well. However, it must be very late in the game for Lucario to sweep effectively because it absolutely needs its checks broken down before it can set up an SD. This is also why it can't wallbreak in practice as effectively as it does on paper; when it's that early in the game, Lucario's checks are still fresh, so they can easily switch into it and either take a +2 Extreme Speed and retaliate or force it out of the battlefield outright. All in all, Luke is one of those mons that possesses great sweeping ability on paper, but due to its low Speed and frailty, it has a much harder time at doing so in practice. Let's look at the B and C rank descriptions, too.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

I wouldn't call Lucario "great" in the OU metagame; it lacks the stats to do its intended job effectively, which puts a damper on its otherwise impressive sweeping and wallbreaking potential. It needs a massive amount of offensive support to clean up like it's supposed to, and it faces competition from other dedicated late-game cleaners. Two late-game cleaners that are on the teams that Lucario normally finds a home on include Talonflame and Serperior, both of which give Luke significant competition for a spot on your hyper offense squad.

Whether you agree or disagree, feel free to share your opinions. I look forward to hearing what you guys think!

EDIT: Wow I managed to TL;DR this one. Sorry guys.

Doesn't every sweeper need their checks broke down to sweep? Also why on earth compare lucario to talonflame and Serperior when that's basically comparing apples and oranges when all 3 have barely anything in common? Plus other things are frailer yet higher on the viability rankings? Besides serperior can only enter on a free switch as can thundurus both higher ranked then lucario. My problem is you're nitpicking luke's flaws when things higher on the viability rankings have the same flaws. So keep it B-

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I don't agree with your logic there. "It must be late in the game for Lucario to sweep effectively because it absolutely needs its checks broken down before it can set up an SD", well, right there, you basically defined what Lucario's role in OU is: it's a late-game cleaner, and you even said it yourself. It's not going to be sweeping from Turn 3, it's meant to be used in the late game when its checks have been severely weakened. When using Lucario well, the late game situation is pretty much inevitable because of Stealth Rock damage (and sometimes Spikes) that accumulates on the opponent's team over the course of the match. Yeah I know it has checks early in the game, but you need to look at this from a teambuilding perspective, not one where it will always be one-on-one. It's not like Lucario is going to even attempt to sweep early in the game, and if you're trying to go that route you're definitely doing it wrong. Now yeah it needs a free switch-in to get in, but same with any setup sweeper really.

I'd say B- is low enough for Lucario. Obviously its frailty and nature of which it is played limits it a bit, but with its late-game cleaning capabilities with E-Speed, STAB Close Combat, and a free slot for grabs to allow Lucario to nab something the rest of the team can't handle, it is definitely a capable sweeper. It's SR resistant, immune to Toxic Spikes (which has become a bit common with Dragalge and to a lesser extent Scolipede), and in general it's pretty decent at cleaning up late in the game. B- is low enough for it, it has enough of a niche and is effective enough to stay out of the C Ranks imo. It certainly doesn't deserve to be higher than B- at all, but that's a fine enough rank honestly.

 

[blinkie]

Doesn't every sweeper need their checks broke down to sweep? Also why on earth compare lucario to talonflame and Serperior when that's basically comparing apples and oranges when all 3 have barely anything in common? Plus other things are frailer yet higher on the viability rankings? Besides serperior can only enter on a free switch and it's b.

Serperior has the ability to simultaneously boost and sweep, so it can freely "set up" on a slower mon it can KO, because it doesn't need to predict a switch. Lucario on the other hand cannot do that, because it is extremely frail and will cannot SD vs something that can hurt it, while Serperior doesn't have that problem. Lucario is also much easier to check than Serperior. It not only has 4MSS, wanting to run Crunch, Iron Tail, Ice Punch, and Bullet Punch in the last slot, but also can be stopped cold by many faster mons such as Gengar if it doesn't have Bullet Punch. Serperior has a far better speed tier as well, which can make up for its lack of priority. Lucario is basically as frail, but when set up it is nowhere near as scary as Serperior. Finally the main problem is Lucario can't set up on even resisted hits, for example:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 147-173 (52.3 - 61.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 121-143 (43 - 50.8%)

So yeah Serperior has a much easier time setting up, while Talonflame also has priority and a great speed tier, outspeeding everything but Espeed users. While Extreme Speed is pretty cool, it isn't too strong and Lucario has a hard time getting up to +2 in practice. Even then, it is not like Lucario is going to OHKO everything with it, and in conjunction with its lackluster speed, if you had a free turn, many other sweepers would be far more dangerous.

edit: if you lack crunch fat psychics like Slowbro wall you, if you lack Ice Punch Gliscor and Land-T can come in, Iron Tail is for Unaware Clef and random stuff like Mega Venue. Bullet Punch shuts down Terrakion and Gengar if you want. IDK but thats a lot of stuff you need to handle with only one slot.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Serperior has the ability to simultaneously boost and sweep, so it can freely "set up" on a slower mon it can KO, because it doesn't need to predict a switch. Lucario on the other hand cannot do that, because it is extremely frail and will cannot SD vs something that can hurt it, while Serperior doesn't have that problem. Lucario is also much easier to check than Serperior. It not only has 4MSS, wanting to run Crunch, Iron Tail, Ice Punch, and Bullet Punch in the last slot, but also can be stopped cold by many faster mons such as Gengar if it doesn't have Bullet Punch. Serperior has a far better speed tier as well, which can make up for its lack of priority. Lucario is basically as frail, but when set up it is nowhere near as scary as Serperior. Finally the main problem is Lucario can't set up on even resisted hits, for example:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 147-173 (52.3 - 61.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 121-143 (43 - 50.8%)

So yeah Serperior has a much easier time setting up, while Talonflame also has priority and a great speed tier, outspeeding everything but Espeed users. While Extreme Speed is pretty cool, it isn't too strong and Lucario has a hard time getting up to +2 in practice. Even then, it is not like Lucario is going to OHKO everything with it, and in conjunction with its lackluster speed, if you had a free turn, many other sweepers would be far more dangerous.

How does it have 4mss when all it needs is sd cc e speed and whatever coverage the team needs? The calcs vs bisharp are kinda pointless because you are basically saying let's watch a wallbreaker shatter a frail mon
Also read this

I don't agree with your logic there. "It must be late in the game for Lucario to sweep effectively because it absolutely needs its checks broken down before it can set up an SD", well, right there, you basically defined what Lucario's role in OU is: it's a late-game cleaner, and you even said it yourself. It's not going to be sweeping from Turn 3, it's meant to be used in the late game when its checks have been severely weakened. When using Lucario well, the late game situation is pretty much inevitable because of Stealth Rock damage (and sometimes Spikes) that accumulates on the opponent's team over the course of the match. Yeah I know it has checks early in the game, but you need to look at this from a teambuilding perspective, not one where it will always be one-on-one. It's not like Lucario is going to even attempt to sweep early in the game, and if you're trying to go that route you're definitely doing it wrong. Now yeah it needs a free switch-in to get in, but same with any setup sweeper really.

I'd say B- is low enough for Lucario. Obviously its frailty and nature of which it is played limits it a bit, but with its late-game cleaning capabilities with E-Speed, STAB Close Combat, and a free slot for grabs to allow Lucario to nab something the rest of the team can't handle, it is definitely a capable sweeper. It's SR resistant, immune to Toxic Spikes (which has become a bit common with Dragalge and to a lesser extent Scolipede), and in general it's pretty decent at cleaning up late in the game. B- is low enough for it, it has enough of a niche and is effective enough to stay out of the C Ranks imo. It certainly doesn't deserve to be higher than B- at all, but that's a fine enough rank honestly.

 

[TFL]

Lucario should drop. It's just not good. I've used it and have seen it used against me enough to know that. It has a true 4 move slot syndrome in that it needs ExtremeSpeed and Swords Dance to even do its job, and then it wants Bullet Punch to hit mons like Terrakion, Gengar, Tyranitar (Choice Scarf), Mega Aerodactyl, and possibly others. Then it wants to have Crunch to hit bulky Psychic and Ghosts in general. It wants Ice Punch for Landorus-T and Zapdos (maybe other things?) and it wants Iron Tail for Mega Venusaur, Clefable, zzz and it's still checked by Gyara.

If they have the (likely common) mon that your Lucario loses to then it's unlikely it will do anything notable, because what it loses to are in no way easy to wear down or lure, especially when they are going to be saving it for Luc. It's very hit or miss. Except that it mostly misses.

 

[skup]

I'd honestly say Suicune should move up to A-, rather than move down to B. Suicune is a very well positioned win con for stall rn as most Clefables are Unaware Clerics and not capable of being win cons. Suicune nicely takes over that late game CM sweeper job, and basically smacks the standard balance teams with a set of Scald/Rest/Calm Mind/Roar. Roar is one of Suicune's important distinctions, as it allows you to simply phase out crap like CM Clefable or SubCM Keldeo rather than going to a CM war. Once Suicune gets to +2 most teams just straight up lose, which means Suicune typically forces in its check every time it comes in, allowing you to easily double out or wear it down by shuffling with roar or fishing for scald burns in conjunction with hazards. Lastly, I think the notion that Suicune is outclassed by Slowbro is silly, as most Stall/Semi-Stall teams that would run Suicune are using one of the two Magic Bounce megas, or at least Mega Venusaur, so you basically can't run Mega Slowbro on these types of teams.

 

[Lord Wallace]

I'm gonna disagree with moving down Conk for one simple reason that idk if it's been pointed out yet but if not I may as well: Sheer Force.
Sheer Force Conkeldurr is a pretty overlooked wallbreaker that catches a lot of people off guard and is way more useful than AV on offense imo.
Here's some calcs for thought:

Hide

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 226-268 (53.8 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 333-395 (87.1 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 185-218 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 520-614 (147.3 - 173.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 203-239 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 250-294 (59.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 208-247 (68.6 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 398-471 (113 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 208-246 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 211-250 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Given that a lot of these Pokemon are typcial AV switch ins, I think there's definitely merit in this set.
The reason AV Conk often times falls flat is because it's moves have such low base power and it's excellent 140 Atk isn't being supported by any further boosts, making it pretty underwhelming. This set, on the other hand, makes Conkeldurr a cool supporting attacker, paving the way for other physical sweepers like Excadrill, Talonflame, Metagross, Altaria, and Zard-X by luring in their common checks. It's also doing more damage with Mach Punch to RK threats, particularly Lopunny and Excadrill, who are often a pain in offense's ass.

My set:

Hide

Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower / Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch / Poison Jab
- Thunder Punch / Poison Jab

This outspeeds defensive Skarm and Clefable

Conkeldurr is fine in B

 

[bludz]

So I know it's been brought up a few times but I just want to support Slowking rising again, this time from B- to B. Being one of the best checks to both Landorus and Metagross (plus walling Keldeo is a plus) is pretty big in the current metagame. It's also one of the few defensive mons that can legit take a +3 Manaphy super effective hit and Dragon Tail it out. AV sets take like 50% from Latios Draco Meteors which is actually pretty nice from a teambuilding perspective since so many run HP Fire or EQ for Trans/Ferros which are supposed to be the switch ins. Can also go physically defensive for a nice mixed defense set that even checks Mega Lopunny pretty well.

Ultimately it's gained a ton of effectiveness especially on balance teams as a mon that actually deals with a lot of the current balance breakers.

 

[dramadrama]

id like to nominate landorus-i for s+
i thing all the good stuff about it had already been said before the nomination to S. id its the best pokemon on ou rn. every other s pokemon has and counters that it just cannot beat and needs some sort of tean support do break them. the only staple checks to lando are cresselia and mega lati (still there is calm mind sludge wave). the rest of the checks loose to coverage moves like rock slide, hp ice, knock off etc. landorus can adapt to the meta, most of the games it is your wincon, almost always you need two checks on it per team.

 

[North Gate]

Since I can't log into Showdown and I have nothing else to do, I'm gonna take a look at Slowking.

Slowking B- -> B/B+
I notice I've been doing a lot of the B ranked stuff lately....
Anyway, Slowking is mostly overshadowed by Slowbro because Slowbro has better defenses for Calm Mind and his stats suit the metagame he sits in, I guess.
I'll be formatting this the same way as my Houndoom post, which got shot down, cri.
Lets get to the pros, and boy there sure are some good ones.

• Checks Megagross.
• Gets some amazing coverage with its moves and has a great movepool.
• Checks special mega Altaria and DDance Mega Altaria somewhat.
• Counters Keldeo, especially if the AV set, which is the best one for this meta, imo.
• Checks Landorus-I.
• Probably has some of the best special tankiness that isn't a passive fuck.
• Access to Calm Mind to bolster it's Special Attack to higher levels and increase it's Special Defense.
• Access to a coveted boosting move in Nasty Plot.
• Reliable recovery in Slack Off. *snore*
• Probably one of the better Trick Room Pokemon in OU.
• Has two good abilities, one being Regenerator the other being Oblivious.
• Good defensive typing. Shoots down some important threats.

Now lets look at the cons of this thing.

• Sub par defense, has to rely on resists to tank most Life Orb/Other item boosted physical attacks.
• Checks most S ranks but loses to certain sets/items.
• Is super slow, but we know this.
• Apply physical pressure and this thing has a hard time.
• Pivots but it requires more accurate prediction to pivot, since Slowking doesn't get Turn or Switch.
• Defensive non AV hates Taunt and isn't as specially tanky.
• Still has a decently hard time against offensive threats like Thundurus, Serperior, mostly things that can carry Knock Off and cripple it by stripping its AV.
• Unlike CroBro, loses to Toxic.

While you may be thinking, 'Why don't I just use Slowbro! It's basically this but better, right?!' Well you're wrong, Slowbro doesn't as accurately check Keldeo or Megagross. ((GKnot is more common than Thunderpunch anyway.)) AV Slowbro requires more investing to be able to tank special hits better, and Slowking has access to a few moves like Power Gem, Nasty Plot, among others that Slowbro wants.

The fact that this thing checks all of our S rankings is astonishing, I mean it loses to Altaria if it gets a boost under its belt, it loses to Thunder Punch Megagross, it loses to Knock Off Landorus-I, but still, Thunder Punch Megagross is semi uncommon and the former and the latter are more common, but I've personally seen special Mega Altaria more, and Knock Off Lando-I isn't that rare.

A lot of people overlook Slowking's access to Nasty Plot, which is a selling point over it's cousin Slowbro, because Slowking can actually use Trick Room for ITSELF and run a Trick Room + Nasty Plot and two attacks set, it's very powerful and can sweep unprepared teams. Calm Mind bolsters its Special Defense to higher levels and Special Attack to less than Nasty Plot, but still a major threat and shouldn't be overlooked.

Sadly, Slowking hates Knock Off and also hates strong physical attacks, which it should. Knock Off weakness is crippling however, as some special attackers carry Knock Off to cripple, Chansey for instance. It loses to Thundurus with Knock Off and maybe without, since Nasty Plot, and Serperior, things that can deal Super Effective damage to it and boost it up to blisteringly high levels are threats, Celebi, Serperior, Thundurus-I, Landorus-I, among others are threats to Slowking as a special attacker.

Slowking can also act as an effective lure, since it's speed is so low you can run a Quiet nature or w/e, and use Earthquake to lure in specially defensive Heatran better. Scald probably does decent damage to it, but it's Heatran. Heatran probably shouldn't switch into an AV set anyway unless it really wants to risk using the Toxic.

Slowking can run two or three effective sets, based on your viewpoint of effective. I will list them.

Slowking's viable sets importable

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 164 SpA / 96 SpD
Modest / Quiet Nature
- Scald
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Tail / Future Sight / Psychic
- Ice Beam / Power Gem / Earthquake

Slowking @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 212 SpD
Calm / Sassy (I think? Showdown is down...) Nature
- Scald
- Psyshock / Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off

Slowking @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator / Oblivious
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Scald / Surf
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Fire Blast / Ice Beam / Nasty Plot / Power Gem

Note: Do not blame me for the outdated EV spreads, I can't mess around with the EVs or test them since I can't log into Showdown.

Overall this thing is good, but weak to some specially offensive threats and able to be threatened by strong special attacking hits, mostly when super effective. Physical threats like Bisharp, Knock Off Gallade, Tyranitar, just to name a few can threaten with a Knock Off or Pursuit trap you. With Regenerator this thing is an awesome pivot and can easily play around some threats and make special attackers cry their bloody hearts away.

I guess that's it, I probably missed touching out on stuff, like team support. I was rating Slowking as an individual Pokemon, not as team support, although I could see this thing on Balance, Bulky Offense, and Semistall if the Leftovers set.

calcs

As a quick note, I will be focusing on the Assault Vest set as I think that set is probably the most viable right now.

252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 170-204 (43.2 - 51.9%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 134-158 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 135-159 (48 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 136-162 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
-1 0 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 90-108 (32 - 38.4%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 129-152 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 265-312 (67.4 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 270-318 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Miracle Seed Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 200-236 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 218-257 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
164+ SpA Slowking Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 214-252 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 162-192 (42 - 49.8%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 220-260 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 128-151 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 142-168 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 113-133 (28.7 - 33.8%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 113-133 (28.7 - 33.8%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 90-108 (22.9 - 27.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 284-336 (72.2 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
164+ SpA Slowking Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 188-222 (62.4 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 75-89 (19 - 22.6%) -- 2.4% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 124-147 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 54-65 (13.7 - 16.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO
after Stealth Rock
164+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-288 (74.9 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 230-272 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+6 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 220-259 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 156-185 (39.6 - 47%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 85-102 (30.6 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 195-229 (49.6 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
164+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 336-396 (129.7 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 157-186 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
164+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 159-187 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+6 4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 338-402 (86 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Jesus! STAB move at +6 doing that?! Weak ass...)

252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 105-124 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 118-139 (30 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
192+ Atk Altaria Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 92-109 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 102-121 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- 18.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 196-232 (49.8 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 228-270 (94.6 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 172-204 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 114-136 (29 - 34.6%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 170-200 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

((This was just a for fun calc.))

+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 282-332 (71.7 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Eraxxer]

I don't think Lando is that much better than the S-Rank Pokemon, especially Mega Metagross. Obviously it's a meta-defining force, but the rise of Ice Sharders in Mamoswine and Weavile means that the RP set is a bit more limited. I wouldn't say it's like Pdon in Ubers where basically every team has it. It's also fighting for a spot with Lando-T which has still huge amounts of usage even though it's not quite as good anymore. I don't think it's worth changing the whole S rank just for this when it's really not so much better than the other S-Ranks to be hugely distinguishable.