I forgot to say it's Moldy ESpeed, not regular Espeed. Oopsies.
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Metagame ORAS Pure Hackmons
- Thread starter lag=bad
- Start date
Reached rank 1 with this same team to prove it is still viable. It's definitely unusual and not perfect, but it has solid answers to most threats seen on ladder (honestly it was more consistent than any of my more modern teams lol).
I think it needs adjustments to deal with void setup sweepers better though. Have been occasionally reliant on opponents not thinking ahead and letting me reverse sweep with imposter. Also tbh it's so funny seeing people underestimate MMY damage and just get their wonder guard OHKOed turn 1 and insta lose to deo lol
Y'all asked, We heard (with hearing aids and a lot of "eh?"s.) Soo...
Welcome to the ORAS Hackmons Viability Rankings. The goal of this resource is to provide an accurate ranking of used Pokemon in the metagame, and the most common abilities those Pokemon use. Pokemon ranked below A are ranked alphabetically within their tiers. Abilities in Bold are seen very commonly on that Pokemon and are considered staples. Abilities in italics are other abilities that one might need to prepare for or keep in mind if you see the Pokemon in team preview, but are not very common or are more niche. Feel free to respond with Pokemon you think should be added, or sets that a Pokemon should have!
S Rank
Giratina ......................... Prankster, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce
A Rank
A+
Rayquaza-Mega ........... Mold Breaker, Gale Wings, Aerilate, Shadow Tag
Mewtwo-Mega-X .......... Huge Power, Shadow Tag, Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker
Gyarados-Mega ............ Huge Power, Poison Heal
Groudon-Primal ............ Mold Breaker, Shadow Tag, Huge Power, Wonder Guard
Chansey ........................ Imposter
Blissey ........................... Imposter, Wonder Guard
A
Diancie-Mega ............... Pixilate, Mold Breaker
Slaking ......................... Shadow Tag, Huge Power, Wonder Guard
Kyogre-Primal .............. Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker, Magic Bounce, Poison Heal
Ferrothorn .................... Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce
A-
Aegislash ..................... Magic Bounce, Prankster
Gengar-Mega ............... Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker, No Guard
Arceus .......................... Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker, No Guard, Shadow Tag
Beedrill-Mega ............... Wonder Guard, No Guard
Regigias ........................ Shadow Tag, Huge Power
Xerneas ......................... Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker
Audino-Mega ................. Wonder Guard
Reminder that Pokemon after this point are ranked alphabetically
B Rank
B+
Deoxys-Attack ............. Wonder Guard, No Guard
Deoxys-Speed ............. No Guard, Wonder Guard
Latios-Mega ................. Mold Breaker, Protean
Ludicolo ........................ Wonder Guard
Manectric-Mega ........... Wonder Guard
Sableye-Mega ............... Wonder Guard
Yveltal ........................... Poison Heal, Magic Bounce, Huge Power
B
Dialga ........................... Mold Breaker, Magic Bounce
Gyarados ...................... Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce, Prankster, No Guard
Metagross-Mega ........... Prankster
Mewtwo-Mega-Y ........... Shadow Tag, No Guard, Mold Breaker, Protean, Wonder Guard
Registeel ....................... Magic Bounce, Prankster
Swampert-Mega ........... Wonder Guard
B-
Aerodactyl-Mega .......... Shadow Tag
Escavalier ..................... Wonder Guard
Meloeta ........................ Wonder Guard
Scizor-Mega ................. Wonder Guard
Talonflame .................... Wonder Guard
Thundurus .................... Wonder Guard
Tyranitar-Mega .............. Mold Breaker, Huge Power, Poison Heal
Zekrom ........................... Mold Breaker
C Rank
Abomasnow-Mega ........ Refrigerate
Cresselia ......................... Wonder Guard
Garchomp-Mega ........... Mold Breaker
Gardevoir-Mega ............ Wonder Guard
Ho-Oh ............................. Magic Guard
Kyurem-Black ................. Refrigerate, Mold Breaker
Kyurem-White ................ Mold Breaker
Lugia ................................ Shadow Tag
Lucario-Mega ................. Wonder Guard
Rises
A- => A good midground wg, lots of variety in sets. Slotting in above Pogre as a wg with more variety in offensive/defensive/support sets.
B => B+ B=> B+after a couple of good showings from this old frog with new tricks up it's sleeve, it seems like it'll settle down once again one tier higher. it's weakness to strong coverage moves can hold it back, but with a solid offensive typing and good physical defenses, it can utilize it's typing to bluff offensive, defensive, or mixed support sets, prompting a raise.
UR => B-With a face only a parent could love (or maybe if you just really like skuntank's personality), this former air-ballooner is taking it's place thanks to it's good pivoting speed tier, general lack of weaknesses, and surprisingly useful typing offensively to pressure opposing wonder guards.
UR => CFrom absolutely nowhere and requested by absolutely no one it's the klefki upgrade in every way, shape, and form. Steel/fairy that can proof stuff (skuntank does it better though) while taking an owing barely, you can confidently look at this mon and feel better about your choices on a team that aren't mawile
UR => CZapdos-lite except if zapdos could slowpivot on the primals. It can't really encroach on zapdos's niche however due to a couple of small stat issues, but it finds it's place should you wish to use it.
UR => Cif you like spore, and you like like spore, then do I have the mon for you. It's never going higher, but as a super fast spore spreading mold, it can do it's one job. also works nicely as a midground no guard / wg that builds off a spore immunity and strong speed tier, although it's weaknesses hold it back.
Falls
A (high) => A (low)Going down slightly, Ance struggles slightly with power outside the pixi moves, and while it still holds very well against ray and non-Pdon/Mgar molds, more and more we're finding it struggles to teams that are better equipped to handle it even without direct counters. Ance is just dropping below Pogre however, as it's still extremely threatening as a revenger.
A => A-Falling to the lower end of A-, ferrothorns fire/fighting weaknesses are becoming more and more debilitating as the meta adapts to a more hostile climate for this thorned creature.
A- => B+Hackmons' poster child is taking a short plunge due to it's inability to reliably put in effective work in a much more offensive meta. Being such a momentum sink isn't as worth when it can now more often mean a negative spiral, not just clicking chatter until they eventually get fed up and don't subpass to their breaker. It still has good use cases, and can effectively run knock / chatter, but it will likely have to adapt less passive sets to maintain it's reputation.
Abilities, Formatting, and anything else
Dialga - added wonder guard as a secondary ability.Aerodactyl-mega - Added Poison Heal as a secondary Ability.
Mewtwo-Mega-Y - Wonder guard primary ability, removed shadow tag
Slaking/Regigigas - Added mold breaker as a secondary ability
That's all for now, we may take another look at samples before hpl III, so stay tuned!
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There was some talk in PHcord about the minimal amount of coverage options to hit everything super effectively, and while in the end the minimal number is 8 types, some combos are more optimal than others, in particular this one calls my attention:
These type combos or pure types have a single weakness, and thus demand a specific type to hit them SE inherently:
- Dark/Ghost (Fairy)
- Normal (Fighting)
- Electric & Dark/Poison (Ground)
- Bug/Steel (Fire)
Justifying Freeze-Dry:
- Water only has 2 weaknesses, which type combos like Water/Bug, Water/Flying, Water/Dragon, Water/Ground, and Water/Grass all remove in place of a minimal yet semi-unique set of weaknesses
- Ice is already known as one of the types that hits the most things super effectively (Flying, Grass, Dragon, Ground), with Freeze-Dry converting the resistance to it from Water-types to a weakness
Justifying Dark:
- Normal/Psychic demands one of Bug or Dark to hit it super effectively, and similarly a pure Ghost typing demands one of Dark or Ghost to hit it SE.
- Unlike Dark, Bug can hit Dark and Grass super effectively, except that Fighting + Freeze-Dry already hits all Pokemon this'd hit that Dark wouldn't bar Dark/Psychic targets, which are still nailed by Fairy-type coverage, thus making Bug outclassed.
- In exchange, Dark compresses as coverage to hit Ghost-types super effectively, which Bug wouldn't be able to.
- Normal/Ghost is also only weak to Dark, but this only matters from SV onwards.
Justifying Steel:
- Fairy-types demand one of Steel or Poison to hit them super effectively.
- Besides Fairy-types, Poison-type coverage can only also hit Grass-types super effectively, which is redundant with Freeze-Dry + Ground + Fire hitting nearly every target SE, only having a role over Steel by hitting SE the Fire/Grass type combo, which only exists since Gen 9.
- In exchange Steel provides coverage for the niche Rock/Bug type combo, as well as for Ghost/Fairy for those Mimikyu / Flutter Mane haters in later gens
Justifying Rock:
- The only type combos missing to hit super effectively are Fire/Bug, and Fire/Flying
- These combos are both weak to Water and Rock, but Rock has the glaring benefit of being x4 effective on such targets
- It also hits the priorly-mentioned Fire/Grass combo SE, unlike Water, although this only matters for SV onwards.
In short, Fairy + Fighting + Ground + Fire + Freeze-Dry + Dark + Steel + Rock is a good option to consider for teams that want to answer Wonder Guard offensively without overly relying on Mold Breaker.
Other options
Fairy + Ground + Fire + Freeze-Dry + Dark alongside the following combos hit the entire metagame super effectively:
- Fighting + Steel + Rock (alluded earlier & recommended)
- Fighting + Steel + Water (doesn't hit Fire/Grass for later gens)
- Fighting + Poison + Water (doesn't hit Ghost/Fairy for later gens)
- Fighting + Poison + Rock (doesn't hit Ghost/Fairy for later gens)
- Flying Press + Steel + Rock
- Flying Press + Steel + Water
- Flying Press + Poison + Rock (doesn't hit Ghost/Fairy for later gens)
- Flying Press + Poison + Water (doesn't hit Ghost/Fairy for later gens)
Shoutouts to Rain for using a script to find the other potential type combos.
These type combos or pure types have a single weakness, and thus demand a specific type to hit them SE inherently:
- Dark/Ghost (Fairy)
- Normal (Fighting)
- Electric & Dark/Poison (Ground)
- Bug/Steel (Fire)
Justifying Freeze-Dry:
- Water only has 2 weaknesses, which type combos like Water/Bug, Water/Flying, Water/Dragon, Water/Ground, and Water/Grass all remove in place of a minimal yet semi-unique set of weaknesses
- Ice is already known as one of the types that hits the most things super effectively (Flying, Grass, Dragon, Ground), with Freeze-Dry converting the resistance to it from Water-types to a weakness
Justifying Dark:
- Normal/Psychic demands one of Bug or Dark to hit it super effectively, and similarly a pure Ghost typing demands one of Dark or Ghost to hit it SE.
- Unlike Dark, Bug can hit Dark and Grass super effectively, except that Fighting + Freeze-Dry already hits all Pokemon this'd hit that Dark wouldn't bar Dark/Psychic targets, which are still nailed by Fairy-type coverage, thus making Bug outclassed.
- In exchange, Dark compresses as coverage to hit Ghost-types super effectively, which Bug wouldn't be able to.
- Normal/Ghost is also only weak to Dark, but this only matters from SV onwards.
Justifying Steel:
- Fairy-types demand one of Steel or Poison to hit them super effectively.
- Besides Fairy-types, Poison-type coverage can only also hit Grass-types super effectively, which is redundant with Freeze-Dry + Ground + Fire hitting nearly every target SE, only having a role over Steel by hitting SE the Fire/Grass type combo, which only exists since Gen 9.
- In exchange Steel provides coverage for the niche Rock/Bug type combo, as well as for Ghost/Fairy for those Mimikyu / Flutter Mane haters in later gens
Justifying Rock:
- The only type combos missing to hit super effectively are Fire/Bug, and Fire/Flying
- These combos are both weak to Water and Rock, but Rock has the glaring benefit of being x4 effective on such targets
- It also hits the priorly-mentioned Fire/Grass combo SE, unlike Water, although this only matters for SV onwards.
In short, Fairy + Fighting + Ground + Fire + Freeze-Dry + Dark + Steel + Rock is a good option to consider for teams that want to answer Wonder Guard offensively without overly relying on Mold Breaker.
Other options
Fairy + Ground + Fire + Freeze-Dry + Dark alongside the following combos hit the entire metagame super effectively:
- Fighting + Steel + Rock (alluded earlier & recommended)
- Fighting + Steel + Water (doesn't hit Fire/Grass for later gens)
- Fighting + Poison + Water (doesn't hit Ghost/Fairy for later gens)
- Fighting + Poison + Rock (doesn't hit Ghost/Fairy for later gens)
- Flying Press + Steel + Rock
- Flying Press + Steel + Water
- Flying Press + Poison + Rock (doesn't hit Ghost/Fairy for later gens)
- Flying Press + Poison + Water (doesn't hit Ghost/Fairy for later gens)
Shoutouts to Rain for using a script to find the other potential type combos.
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I would like to "update" my original submission of "Take Prisoners", and hereby submit "Take Prisoners v2.0" as a sample. This archetype is also often referred to as "stag spam".
The team:
Link to Poképaste
I won't go extensively into how the team works, how to pilot it, or the reasoning behind every Pokémon, item, EV spread, and moveslot here. For that, please see my RMT on the team, which I wrote after a Discord member requested a more thorough explanation.
At the time of writing this, I'm #1 on the ladder with 91.7% GXE, more than 150 Elo above #2.
I don't mention this to brag or because I think ladder performance by itself settles whether a team should be a sample. I mention it because I think it is relevant to one of the main points of contention surrounding this particular team: whether stag spam is actually a serious and consistent strategy, or merely a gimmick / matchup fish.
From what I've seen, objections to this team generally boil down to two things:
1) "It's boring to use and play against."
Yes. I don't really disagree with this.
To quote Ransei on Discord:
Whether that's a good thing is another question entirely, but I actually think it demonstrates why the archetype is worth taking seriously. If a strategy is effective and prevalent enough to materially affect how people experience the ladder, then it is difficult to argue that it isn't part of the metagame simply because that impact is undesirable.
2) "It's a matchup fish and isn't actually that good."
This is the main reason I'm submitting the updated version alongside its current results.
The team has gone through many iterations since my original sample submission, and I believe it has become substantially better. More importantly, the playerbase has also had time to adapt to it.
This isn't a new strategy benefiting from surprise value anymore.
I've played this style consistently enough that when many players see my name on ladder, they already know what I'm bringing. Players have encountered variations of the team, discussed its counterplay, and adapted their own teams and play accordingly.
Despite that, this version is performing better than the original one did.
Of course, ladder results aren't everything. I wholeheartedly agree with that. But I also don't think that, given the current results and the amount of exposure the archetype has already received, it is reasonable to dismiss its success as simply "the opponent didn't expect it" or "it only wins favorable matchups".
Top ladder players generally know exactly what's coming.
They still generally lose to it.
Arceus-OS/Bobsican put the matchup question in a way that I think describes the situation very well:
This is probably the central argument I want to make with this submission.
At what point does a "matchup fish" stop being the team fishing for matchups, and start forcing the rest of the metagame to account for it?
Of course you can build a team specifically designed to beat Take Prisoners. You can build specifically to beat almost any team.
The more relevant question is:
How much do otherwise viable teams have to sacrifice in order to become consistently safe against stag spam?
I don't think we have a clear answer to that yet.
And I think part of the reason we don't have one is that stag spam is still often approached as something to dismiss as a gimmick rather than something the metagame actually needs to solve.
There is a bit of a contradiction there. On one hand, the team can be dismissed as an unrepresentative gimmick. On the other hand, its presence has apparently become oppressive enough on ladder for people to avoid playing against it.
I think those two observations together make a stronger case for taking the archetype seriously, not a weaker one.
This is ultimately why I think Take Prisoners v2.0 belongs in the samples.
A sample team doesn't have to represent the most conventional way of playing the tier. I think a good collection of samples should also show players the strategies they genuinely need to understand if they want to understand the metagame.
At this point, I believe stag spam meets that standard.
If there is simple, splashable counterplay that reliably shuts this strategy down without significantly compromising otherwise good teams, then I genuinely want that counterplay to be found and adopted. Maybe that eventually makes stag spam substantially worse.
Alternatively, perhaps the metagame adapts and stag spam remains viable, but becomes less oppressive because teams begin accounting for it properly.
Either outcome would be healthy for our understanding of the tier.
What I don't think helps is continuing to treat the archetype as something outside the "real" metagame despite the results showing that players increasingly have to interact with it.
It's here. People know it's coming. It's still winning.
So rather than asking for this team to be accepted because I reached #1 with it, I'm asking for it to be accepted because I believe it has now demonstrated three things:
• It is effective. The results speak for themselves.
• It is reproducible. This isn't a one-off peak; the original and updated versions have both reached #1.
• It is metagame-relevant. Players are aware of the archetype, counterplay exists and is being explored, and the team continues to perform despite that adaptation.
In my view, that's exactly the kind of team a sample should expose players to.
Therefore, I would like to formally submit Take Prisoners v2.0 for inclusion in the ORAS Pure Hackmons samples.
I'll end with one more quote from Arceus-OS/Bobsican, because I think it also addresses the practical question of whether this actually works as a sample rather than merely being a strong team:
I think that's a good summary of what I'm submitting here. The basic win condition is straightforward enough for somebody unfamiliar with the archetype to pick up, while the amount of matchup knowledge, sequencing, trapping mechanics, PP management, and adaptation available gives it plenty of depth at a higher level.
Whether people enjoy playing against it is another matter entirely.
The team:
Link to Poképaste
Code:
Lopunny-Mega @ Lum Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
* Taunt
* Stealth Rock
* Simple Beam
* Knock Off
Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
* Protect
* Disable
* Encore
* Whirlwind
Lugia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
* Switcheroo
* Simple Beam
* Defog
* Magic Coat
Giratina @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 148 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD / 104 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
* Trick
* Stealth Rock
* Soak
* Parting Shot
Aggron-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
* Heal Pulse
* Coil
* Substitute
* Baton Pass
crit machine (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
* Focus Energy
* Extreme Speed
* Shadow Sneak
* BonemerangI won't go extensively into how the team works, how to pilot it, or the reasoning behind every Pokémon, item, EV spread, and moveslot here. For that, please see my RMT on the team, which I wrote after a Discord member requested a more thorough explanation.
At the time of writing this, I'm #1 on the ladder with 91.7% GXE, more than 150 Elo above #2.
I don't mention this to brag or because I think ladder performance by itself settles whether a team should be a sample. I mention it because I think it is relevant to one of the main points of contention surrounding this particular team: whether stag spam is actually a serious and consistent strategy, or merely a gimmick / matchup fish.
From what I've seen, objections to this team generally boil down to two things:
1) "It's boring to use and play against."
Yes. I don't really disagree with this.
To quote Ransei on Discord:
Whether that's a good thing is another question entirely, but I actually think it demonstrates why the archetype is worth taking seriously. If a strategy is effective and prevalent enough to materially affect how people experience the ladder, then it is difficult to argue that it isn't part of the metagame simply because that impact is undesirable.
2) "It's a matchup fish and isn't actually that good."
This is the main reason I'm submitting the updated version alongside its current results.
The team has gone through many iterations since my original sample submission, and I believe it has become substantially better. More importantly, the playerbase has also had time to adapt to it.
This isn't a new strategy benefiting from surprise value anymore.
I've played this style consistently enough that when many players see my name on ladder, they already know what I'm bringing. Players have encountered variations of the team, discussed its counterplay, and adapted their own teams and play accordingly.
Despite that, this version is performing better than the original one did.
Of course, ladder results aren't everything. I wholeheartedly agree with that. But I also don't think that, given the current results and the amount of exposure the archetype has already received, it is reasonable to dismiss its success as simply "the opponent didn't expect it" or "it only wins favorable matchups".
Top ladder players generally know exactly what's coming.
They still generally lose to it.
Arceus-OS/Bobsican put the matchup question in a way that I think describes the situation very well:
This is probably the central argument I want to make with this submission.
At what point does a "matchup fish" stop being the team fishing for matchups, and start forcing the rest of the metagame to account for it?
Of course you can build a team specifically designed to beat Take Prisoners. You can build specifically to beat almost any team.
The more relevant question is:
How much do otherwise viable teams have to sacrifice in order to become consistently safe against stag spam?
I don't think we have a clear answer to that yet.
And I think part of the reason we don't have one is that stag spam is still often approached as something to dismiss as a gimmick rather than something the metagame actually needs to solve.
There is a bit of a contradiction there. On one hand, the team can be dismissed as an unrepresentative gimmick. On the other hand, its presence has apparently become oppressive enough on ladder for people to avoid playing against it.
I think those two observations together make a stronger case for taking the archetype seriously, not a weaker one.
This is ultimately why I think Take Prisoners v2.0 belongs in the samples.
A sample team doesn't have to represent the most conventional way of playing the tier. I think a good collection of samples should also show players the strategies they genuinely need to understand if they want to understand the metagame.
At this point, I believe stag spam meets that standard.
If there is simple, splashable counterplay that reliably shuts this strategy down without significantly compromising otherwise good teams, then I genuinely want that counterplay to be found and adopted. Maybe that eventually makes stag spam substantially worse.
Alternatively, perhaps the metagame adapts and stag spam remains viable, but becomes less oppressive because teams begin accounting for it properly.
Either outcome would be healthy for our understanding of the tier.
What I don't think helps is continuing to treat the archetype as something outside the "real" metagame despite the results showing that players increasingly have to interact with it.
It's here. People know it's coming. It's still winning.
So rather than asking for this team to be accepted because I reached #1 with it, I'm asking for it to be accepted because I believe it has now demonstrated three things:
• It is effective. The results speak for themselves.
• It is reproducible. This isn't a one-off peak; the original and updated versions have both reached #1.
• It is metagame-relevant. Players are aware of the archetype, counterplay exists and is being explored, and the team continues to perform despite that adaptation.
In my view, that's exactly the kind of team a sample should expose players to.
Therefore, I would like to formally submit Take Prisoners v2.0 for inclusion in the ORAS Pure Hackmons samples.
I'll end with one more quote from Arceus-OS/Bobsican, because I think it also addresses the practical question of whether this actually works as a sample rather than merely being a strong team:
I think that's a good summary of what I'm submitting here. The basic win condition is straightforward enough for somebody unfamiliar with the archetype to pick up, while the amount of matchup knowledge, sequencing, trapping mechanics, PP management, and adaptation available gives it plenty of depth at a higher level.
Whether people enjoy playing against it is another matter entirely.
this ones better than v1 but still do not make this shit a sample lol
1. by nature it's unoptimized
i've written about this before but stag setup is strongest when the opponent doesn't expect it. with a sample against a decent player there's no chance at all of beating anything that you "shouldn't", which is really bad news for a matchup team
2. doesn't teach people how to play the meta
self-explanatory. you have 1 gameplan and no flexibility. to improve you have to be able to choose between different gameplans
3. lot of autoloss matchups
theres a lot of stuff that you just never beat, any untrickable (mega stones even shit like wg audinite aud for the real losers), shed shell ng, bp ng, shed shell huge power, bounce + anything that beats lopunny, prank taunt + pivoting or prank taunt ghosts, stag breaker + any way around lopunny + any pivot, list goes on. these are all just normal goodmons im not trying to cteam here
like if you compare this to the semistag that lag brought vs me in occasional the difference is night and day, in that game i had bounce gyaradosite gyara, a mon that every full stagpass just does not beat under any circumstance, but since the semistag was much more confusing + flexible it forced a really tense maneuvering game where i wouldve lost if not for near-max speed invest on huge power slaking.
i do kinda hate current samples but that just comes down to issues with the playerbase like yeah lemme pull up with fuckin, 1 mold 1 stag 4 tauntless attackless penniless wg shitters, trap the opposing mold with my stag, get my mold trapped by the opposing stag, and hope that i randomly win the ensuing 4v4, get out of here
1. by nature it's unoptimized
i've written about this before but stag setup is strongest when the opponent doesn't expect it. with a sample against a decent player there's no chance at all of beating anything that you "shouldn't", which is really bad news for a matchup team
2. doesn't teach people how to play the meta
self-explanatory. you have 1 gameplan and no flexibility. to improve you have to be able to choose between different gameplans
3. lot of autoloss matchups
theres a lot of stuff that you just never beat, any untrickable (mega stones even shit like wg audinite aud for the real losers), shed shell ng, bp ng, shed shell huge power, bounce + anything that beats lopunny, prank taunt + pivoting or prank taunt ghosts, stag breaker + any way around lopunny + any pivot, list goes on. these are all just normal goodmons im not trying to cteam here
like if you compare this to the semistag that lag brought vs me in occasional the difference is night and day, in that game i had bounce gyaradosite gyara, a mon that every full stagpass just does not beat under any circumstance, but since the semistag was much more confusing + flexible it forced a really tense maneuvering game where i wouldve lost if not for near-max speed invest on huge power slaking.
i do kinda hate current samples but that just comes down to issues with the playerbase like yeah lemme pull up with fuckin, 1 mold 1 stag 4 tauntless attackless penniless wg shitters, trap the opposing mold with my stag, get my mold trapped by the opposing stag, and hope that i randomly win the ensuing 4v4, get out of here
Eh, the same can be said for nearly everything in the metagame, as by nature the tier has a degree of volatility, in fact as noted earlier this kind of team actively forces the opponent to matchup fish, aka, worsening other matchups just in exchange of a chance to win, not even having an ensured 6-0 unless a very dedicated answer in Sablenite Sableye is used.
I mean, the same can be said for HO samples in most metagames, as they tend to rush for the win condition at the start over trying to enable something in the long term compared to bulkier structures, in fact its low skill floor to use is a point in its favor as it allows newcomers to become familiar with the amount of stuff they'll face in the tier.
Let's see...
Besides Sableye as noted earlier, those are still either vulnerable to trapping (Audino, Gyarados, etc) or just are even more niche (Gengar, Banette), this is also ignoring the capability to just phaze them for a better target to turn into setup fodder, so it's not an inherently unwinnable matchup in practice.
This is the most splashable form of counterplay that has natural merit outside this matchup, but at the same time there's still a backup plan on withstanding a hit with Focus Sash then phazing to an easier target to trap, a fast Disable + Encore can also grant breathing room for this.
Baton Pass is blocked by Taunt, so it's just a more shaky version of the above.
Vulnerable to item change and can quickly depend on the coverage involved, so it's more of a soft check than something to rely on.
Magic Bounce does not block Trick / Switcheroo, add to that Lop still having the capability to override Magic Bounce to Simple and this also is just a soft-check in practice, especially as Stealth Rock actively punishes switch spamming to keep Magic Bounce up.
Can be prone to Magic Coat mind games, it's still a good form of counterplay beyond that.
Vulnerable to MLop's Knock Off.
Oops, Arena Trap trapped the STag mon and even got its ability changed to Simple, meaning that it's trapped for good.
While I think that this is good feedback this does raise the question as to what is really the bar for a sample, as while it's not undefeatable and all by far, neither is anything else. The team consistently performing against a good portion of the metagame even when it's actively known what to expect from it and "adapting" accordingly quite makes for a good case of its relevancy on the tier.
STAGspam is definitely underprepped for. The above team would probably be a better sample than the current worst sample team, and this team specifically does invalidate a lot of teams I've seen people using (though they're mostly questionable even without considering STAGspam imo). I think at this point realistically usable ORAS PH structures are varied enough that you could justify dividing the samples by archetype like how many oldgen OUs do it, allowing for teams like this one to gain representation while expressing which archetypes have higher consistency ceilings.
However, I think that not only are (as Rob said) ladder results usually uninformative for this type of team, but even the inability for the metagame to adapt is not persuasive to me. In a time period where the upper echelons of ladder were harder than today, I went 67-0 with 4 Mega Rayquaza (which is still the ladder winstreak record to this day), achieved a lossless #1 run entirely with 5 Primal Kyogre, and achieved 96% GXE/160 pts above 2nd place with Stall. Additionally, someone else made 94.4% GXE with Cynthia's team. In contrast, species spam has been very rare for at least the last 2-3 years (the exception being Glory's 5 Primal Groudon + Ludicolo team), the Stall structure I used was rather unoptimized and unviable today, and Cynthia's team was obviously never optimal at any point. By principle, regardless of past performance against an honestly trivial environment in mid-high ladder PH, teams can go in and out of style in the long-term as counterplay and even greater metagame optimization can progress at a slower rate than Rob seems to imply.
From a metagame standpoint, it's totally possible to deal with most STAGspam teams – the vast majority of teams will lose to some targeted innate trapping mechanism (being extremely nice + including sets like standard Scarf STAG MMX into this category), but it's reasonable to be mostly secure into the archetype. I don't want to expand too much during Hackmons PL, but fast mons with pivoting that can afford being Tricked a Choice Scarf, Shed Shell Shadow Tag Slaking/Regigigas, some Huge Power Mega Gyarados, the standard Stall structure, signature item users (Sablenite WG Sableye, WG Gyarados, Griseous Orb Giratina, Blue Orb Kyogre, Audinite Mega Audino etc.), misc. Mental Herb Mold Breaker Shell Smash/Belly Drum users, and Chatter in general are all risky at best to face with this team with reasonable sets/teammates on their respective ideal archetypes. Some of these also deal with STAGspam in general quite well regardless of the actual trapping mechanism. Even if we were to assume this particular team explodes in use (as you could reasonably assume if added to samples), Choice Scarf Shadow Tag Mega Rayquaza, Whirlwind WG Skarmory (already not a bad mon, brought it twice in HPL), more U-turn, more WG stone Sableye, Encore Shadow Tag Aerodactyl, random King's Shield etc. are at least somewhat realistic adaptations anyway. Not the most consistent team in the long-term for sure, though of course the uniqueness of the team does partly negate this point assuming sample teams are changed to be divided by category in the future. Also, calling adaptation to this team "fishing" is a bit ridiculous considering the real impact in other matchups is not actually that great with most realistic changes – for example, Sablenite Sableye is actually pretty solid to begin with and the opportunity cost is really just pivoting less efficiently vs. specific Mold Breaker users than the STAG-vulnerable alternative.
Overall I'm not against making these types of teams samples provided it's made clear that the matchup spread is very polarized, especially considering it's actually pretty well-optimized. But failing that it probably isn't worth it at this point in time.
However, I think that not only are (as Rob said) ladder results usually uninformative for this type of team, but even the inability for the metagame to adapt is not persuasive to me. In a time period where the upper echelons of ladder were harder than today, I went 67-0 with 4 Mega Rayquaza (which is still the ladder winstreak record to this day), achieved a lossless #1 run entirely with 5 Primal Kyogre, and achieved 96% GXE/160 pts above 2nd place with Stall. Additionally, someone else made 94.4% GXE with Cynthia's team. In contrast, species spam has been very rare for at least the last 2-3 years (the exception being Glory's 5 Primal Groudon + Ludicolo team), the Stall structure I used was rather unoptimized and unviable today, and Cynthia's team was obviously never optimal at any point. By principle, regardless of past performance against an honestly trivial environment in mid-high ladder PH, teams can go in and out of style in the long-term as counterplay and even greater metagame optimization can progress at a slower rate than Rob seems to imply.
From a metagame standpoint, it's totally possible to deal with most STAGspam teams – the vast majority of teams will lose to some targeted innate trapping mechanism (being extremely nice + including sets like standard Scarf STAG MMX into this category), but it's reasonable to be mostly secure into the archetype. I don't want to expand too much during Hackmons PL, but fast mons with pivoting that can afford being Tricked a Choice Scarf, Shed Shell Shadow Tag Slaking/Regigigas, some Huge Power Mega Gyarados, the standard Stall structure, signature item users (Sablenite WG Sableye, WG Gyarados, Griseous Orb Giratina, Blue Orb Kyogre, Audinite Mega Audino etc.), misc. Mental Herb Mold Breaker Shell Smash/Belly Drum users, and Chatter in general are all risky at best to face with this team with reasonable sets/teammates on their respective ideal archetypes. Some of these also deal with STAGspam in general quite well regardless of the actual trapping mechanism. Even if we were to assume this particular team explodes in use (as you could reasonably assume if added to samples), Choice Scarf Shadow Tag Mega Rayquaza, Whirlwind WG Skarmory (already not a bad mon, brought it twice in HPL), more U-turn, more WG stone Sableye, Encore Shadow Tag Aerodactyl, random King's Shield etc. are at least somewhat realistic adaptations anyway. Not the most consistent team in the long-term for sure, though of course the uniqueness of the team does partly negate this point assuming sample teams are changed to be divided by category in the future. Also, calling adaptation to this team "fishing" is a bit ridiculous considering the real impact in other matchups is not actually that great with most realistic changes – for example, Sablenite Sableye is actually pretty solid to begin with and the opportunity cost is really just pivoting less efficiently vs. specific Mold Breaker users than the STAG-vulnerable alternative.
Overall I'm not against making these types of teams samples provided it's made clear that the matchup spread is very polarized, especially considering it's actually pretty well-optimized. But failing that it probably isn't worth it at this point in time.
Oras Sample Submission/Mini RMT
(Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Teravolt
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Void
- Tail Glow
- Judgment
- Boomburst
(Giratina) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Curse
- Recover
- Taunt
Of course the best mon in the tier is on this team. Kind of a standard set here with a lot of hp and defense investment. Spore disables a lot of mons that aren't grass, mbounce, or have safety goggles. Regular curse and recover are on their as well. Though this set does use taunt over the standard encore. This is does help deter mold breakers that somehow get a subpass. Taunt is used to prevent them from clicking dvoid or shell smash and then hope they don't deal enough damage so you can curse. Now the real reason for taunt isn't to be a anti sweeper that doesn't work like 60-90% of the time. Instead this can be used to prevent opposing wg from clicking moves like subsitute, defog, and most importantly recover. Using taunt just to prevent wg mons from using recover might not seem like that much of use but later teammates make great use of it.
(Beedrill-Mega) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Wonder Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
Beedrill is the first wg of the team and has several important roles to fufill. Number 1 is to subpass over to arceus or really anything that wants one. While important it's mostly just to be able to apply pressure and in a lot games arceus won't actually be sweeping from a single subpass, at least not with this team. Taunt is there to prevent slower wg from using things like defog or substitute while also doubling down on preventing recovery moves. Trick is used over something like poison jab to further chip down opposing wgs. I also just didn't see much use for attacking moves other than u turn which has anti-synergy with subpass. Though a pretty important reason for why beedrill is here rather than other fast mons is it's ability to absorb toxic spikes, an other wise huge detriment to this team. If your wondering why I didn't just use gengar, it's mostly
because I didn't want to lose to stuff like mmy and other fast wgs.
(Sableye-Mega) @ Leftovers
Ability: Wonder Guard
Level: 2
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 76 HP / 76 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Curse
- Pain Split
- Magic Coat
- Sticky Web
Finally we can finally onto other wincons. Sableye is the teams second wg and a extremely valuable member. I know a lot of level 2 sableye sets like to use psycho shift with a flame orb but I really didn't like having to lose hp every round when sableye really does not get to stay for too long every switch. Not having to use psycho shift lets it run magic coat, useful for playing mindgames with dvoid sweepers and taunt wgs. As for the last move sableye runs sticky web to help Arceus sweep. I did say that Arceus isn't the most important wincon but it still is a important one. The main purpose of sticky is to allow arceus to outspeed faster mons like deoxys-s which could otherwise cause problems while sweeping. As for the part where sableye is a wincon, you'd mostly want to try and kill off any mold breakers along with gastro acid or fairy move users. Though this is a lot harder to pull off than using Arceus or our next team member against most teams.
(Deoxys-Speed) @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sheer Cold
- Sing
- Gastro Acid
- Spikes
No guard is commonly assumed to be bad in higher level play due to being stopped by two wgs. However I believe that this is completely false. With the right support no guard can go from a common joke to a genuinely terrifying force wincon. This mostly stems from what no guard is actually demanding, which is just one or less wgs on the opposing team. This one pokemon alone advances the teams game plan a lot, even if it makes a few dumb moves like sacrificing Arceus to just damage one pokemon. The set itself is pretty standard with just lum over focus sash and spikes over stealth. By just spamming sing and gastro acid while setting up spikes, deoxys can easily kill a weakened wg. The need to have a weakened wg is also why giratina and beedrill both have taunt along with sableye's existence on this team. Also the fact that none of the current samples have no guard still surprises me when it's genuinely such a useful tool.
(Slaking) @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Water Shuriken
- Pursuit
- Wish
Finally we have the revenge killer of the team. To be honest slakings only purpose here is to revenge kill or force out sweepers. Though slaking can also deal with things like hp mmx or protean latios. I didn't really like the fake out and extreme speed set and though choice band didn't really fit this team. Eventually I landed on life orb. Life orb lets slakings espeed and water shuriken kill a good amount of sweepers that it couldn't reliably deal with before. Pursuit is just there as an option to punish switches if you want to play mindgames. I originally had gastro acid on this to deal with other level 2 sableyes but I eventually switched to wish to better support Arceus if you want to use it as a "panic button". For opposing level 2 sableyes I decided I could use the same chipping strategy I used for regular wgs by using my own sableye to prevent painsplit from healing too much.
Ability: Wonder Guard
Level: 2
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 76 HP / 76 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Curse
- Pain Split
- Magic Coat
- Sticky Web
Finally we can finally onto other wincons. Sableye is the teams second wg and a extremely valuable member. I know a lot of level 2 sableye sets like to use psycho shift with a flame orb but I really didn't like having to lose hp every round when sableye really does not get to stay for too long every switch. Not having to use psycho shift lets it run magic coat, useful for playing mindgames with dvoid sweepers and taunt wgs. As for the last move sableye runs sticky web to help Arceus sweep. I did say that Arceus isn't the most important wincon but it still is a important one. The main purpose of sticky is to allow arceus to outspeed faster mons like deoxys-s which could otherwise cause problems while sweeping. As for the part where sableye is a wincon, you'd mostly want to try and kill off any mold breakers along with gastro acid or fairy move users. Though this is a lot harder to pull off than using Arceus or our next team member against most teams.
(Deoxys-Speed) @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sheer Cold
- Sing
- Gastro Acid
- Spikes
No guard is commonly assumed to be bad in higher level play due to being stopped by two wgs. However I believe that this is completely false. With the right support no guard can go from a common joke to a genuinely terrifying force wincon. This mostly stems from what no guard is actually demanding, which is just one or less wgs on the opposing team. This one pokemon alone advances the teams game plan a lot, even if it makes a few dumb moves like sacrificing Arceus to just damage one pokemon. The set itself is pretty standard with just lum over focus sash and spikes over stealth. By just spamming sing and gastro acid while setting up spikes, deoxys can easily kill a weakened wg. The need to have a weakened wg is also why giratina and beedrill both have taunt along with sableye's existence on this team. Also the fact that none of the current samples have no guard still surprises me when it's genuinely such a useful tool.
(Slaking) @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Water Shuriken
- Pursuit
- Wish
Finally we have the revenge killer of the team. To be honest slakings only purpose here is to revenge kill or force out sweepers. Though slaking can also deal with things like hp mmx or protean latios. I didn't really like the fake out and extreme speed set and though choice band didn't really fit this team. Eventually I landed on life orb. Life orb lets slakings espeed and water shuriken kill a good amount of sweepers that it couldn't reliably deal with before. Pursuit is just there as an option to punish switches if you want to play mindgames. I originally had gastro acid on this to deal with other level 2 sableyes but I eventually switched to wish to better support Arceus if you want to use it as a "panic button". For opposing level 2 sableyes I decided I could use the same chipping strategy I used for regular wgs by using my own sableye to prevent painsplit from healing too much.
Before I finish I do want to talk about a two obvious weakness and how one of them can be adressed( kind of) in a match.
First I want to mention gale wings rayquaza. With a flying weak wg and a slow wg you can imagine how this can be a problem. At a point this mostly comes down to the rayquazas set and mindgames. For example something like chatter/taunt/spikes/xxx can be problem but not impossible to deal with. Your main solution would be to predict a taunt coming into your sableye(assuming that's whats switched in) and swap to slaking to threaten a espeed kill. Another major issue is stag pdon. If an opponent predicts a beedrill coming in, then they can easily swap to stag pdon and ko beedrill. To be honest theres not a lot you can do outside of not leaving beedrill vulnerable which is pretty difficult to do.So that's basically my sample submission/mini rmt. To summarize some of the pros for why I think this should be a sample is basically because you have a lot of wincons and thus gameplans going into matches that can easily be adjusted depending on the opposing team. I believe that this team can genuinely be useful for new players coming into format who are searching for more versatile team to get into the format with.
Final Team Link
Also a version that I believe is slightly more optimized for sableye and slaking
personal vr after going beast mode on my enemies
unordered within ranks
not comprehensive by any means but i dont wanna be too presumptuous about stuff ive never used
earlier abilities are better/more proven than later ones for the most part
shadow tag can be exchanged for arena trap on a case-by-case basis
anything from s to b is something i could slap on a team and be confident will work. anything b- and below i have to make sure its not terrible
if my takes are too scary just think of this like a "cityscapes playstyle vr"
S RANK
Mega Gyarados (Huge Power, Poison Heal)
A RANK
A+
Chansey (Imposter)
Giratina (Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, Prankster, Teravolt)
Primal Kyogre (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, Huge Power, Pixilate, Poison Heal, No Guard, Prankster)
Xerneas (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, Pixilate, Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, No Guard, Shadow Tag)
A
Arceus (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, Huge Power, No Guard, Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, Shadow Tag)
Mega Gengar (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, Normalize, No Guard)
Primal Groudon (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, Huge Power, Shadow Tag)
Mega Mewtwo X (Huge Power, Wonder Guard, Shadow Tag, Teravolt)
Mega Rayquaza (Teravolt, Wonder Guard, Gale Wings)
Regigigas/Slaking (Huge Power, Teravolt, Shadow Tag, Wonder Guard)
Mega Swampert (Wonder Guard, Huge Power)
A-
Mega Beedrill (Wonder Guard, No Guard)
Deoxys-Speed (No Guard, Wonder Guard)
Giratina-Origin (Teravolt, Huge Power, Prankster, Magic Bounce)
Gyarados (Wonder Guard, Illusion, No Guard)
Mega Latias (Teravolt, Protean, Magic Bounce, Prankster)
Mega Metagross (Prankster, Magic Bounce, No Guard, Shadow Tag, Huge Power)
Registeel (Magic Bounce, Prankster)
Mega Sableye (Wonder Guard)
Yveltal (Poison Heal, Huge Power, Prankster)
B RANK
B+
Aegislash (Magic Bounce)
Mega Audino (Prankster, Wonder Guard, Huge Power)
Deoxys-Attack (Wonder Guard, No Guard, Huge Power)
Dialga (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce, Teravolt)
Mega Diancie (Pixilate, Teravolt)
Mega Latios (Teravolt, Protean)
Lugia (No Guard, Magic Bounce, Prankster, Teravolt)
Mega Manectric (Wonder Guard, No Guard)
Mega Mewtwo Y (No Guard, Protean, Wonder Guard, Illusion)
Meloetta (Wonder Guard)
Mismagius (Wonder Guard)
Palkia (Wonder Guard)
Talonflame (Wonder Guard)
B
Mega Absol (Wonder Guard, Huge Power)
Mega Aerodactyl (Wonder Guard, No Guard, Poison Heal, Teravolt)
Altaria (Illusion, Shadow Tag)
Ampharos (Wonder Guard, Illusion)
Mega Charizard X/Reshiram (Wonder Guard)
Empoleon (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce, Prankster)
Ferrothorn (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce, Prankster)
Genesect (Wonder Guard)
Ho-Oh (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Teravolt)
Hoopa-Unbound (Wonder Guard, Huge Power)
Kyurem-Black (Wonder Guard, Huge Power, Refrigerate)
Mega Lopunny (No Guard, Wonder Guard)
Mega Lucario (Wonder Guard)
Ludicolo (Wonder Guard)
Pinsir (Wonder Guard, Illusion, Shadow Tag)
Probopass (Magic Bounce)
Mega Scizor (Wonder Guard, Huge Power, Teravolt)
Thundurus (Wonder Guard)
B-
Blissey (Imposter, Wonder Guard)
Mega Charizard Y (Wonder Guard)
Crobat (Wonder Guard)
Escavalier (Wonder Guard)
Mega Garchomp (Wonder Guard, Teravolt)
Mega Gardevoir (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, No Guard)
Kyurem-White (Teravolt, Wonder Guard)
Landorus (Wonder Guard)
Pidgeot (Illusion, Shadow Tag)
Salamence (Illusion, Shadow Tag)
Mega Sceptile (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, No Guard)
Skuntank (Wonder Guard)
Tentacruel (Wonder Guard)
Mega Tyranitar (Huge Power, Magic Bounce, Poison Heal)
Umbreon (Poison Heal)
Mega Venusaur (Prankster, Teravolt)
Volcarona (Wonder Guard)
C
Articuno (Wonder Guard)
Mega Banette (Wonder Guard, Teravolt)
Mega Blaziken (Wonder Guard, Huge Power, Teravolt)
Cobalion (No Guard)
Durant (Wonder Guard, No Guard)
Glalie (Shadow Tag, Illusion, Wonder Guard)
Heatran (Magic Bounce, Desolate Land)
Keldeo (Shadow Tag, Wonder Guard)
Klefki (Wonder Guard)
Magnezone (Magic Bounce, Wonder Guard)
Mega Salamence (Wonder Guard, Teravolt)
Shaymin-Sky (Wonder Guard, No Guard, Teravolt, Aerilate)
Shuckle (Wonder Guard, Prankster, Magic Bounce, Poison Heal)
Snorlax (Wonder Guard, Prankster, Magic Bounce)
Starmie (No Guard)
The Squad (Level 2 Wonder Guard)
Virizion (No Guard)
Volcanion (Magic Bounce, Wonder Guard, No Guard)
unordered within ranks
not comprehensive by any means but i dont wanna be too presumptuous about stuff ive never used
earlier abilities are better/more proven than later ones for the most part
shadow tag can be exchanged for arena trap on a case-by-case basis
anything from s to b is something i could slap on a team and be confident will work. anything b- and below i have to make sure its not terrible
if my takes are too scary just think of this like a "cityscapes playstyle vr"
S RANK
gyara is super customizable, lum and shed shell are both good, last slot you can run hazard, bell, defog, trickscarf, bunch of useful shit, you can also run super defensive spreads if you want cause you'll rarely have power issues against the stuff you're trying to kill. only one i can really think of is mold xern. but yeah gyara is good against the most annoying molds to face and also helps vs ghosts, always puts in work in game it feels like
Mega Gyarados (Huge Power, Poison Heal)A RANK
A+
i think eviolite is the best imp by a lot (with shed shell being 2nd), i have won a lot of endgames because of my opponent being scarf imp for no reason. scarf is only good if you expect them to bring unsupported unimproofed mold smash which like, just run priority for that lol. i have never regretted not having scarf imp
gira is the best bouncer and bouncers are pretty good, ph also glues together some cores nicely. i've kinda soured on prank recently cause of it being vulnerable to sleep and struggling to actually do anything to moldy pdon (they can just tank the sleep if they want), but if you want to run a prank then gira will work
ogre is the best spdef in the tier and has a fuckton of sets
xern has the powerful attack "Moonblast" and can be used to many mischievous ends. i think it is a lot better than diancie because it can take hits from things that aren't 1 singular mray oblivion wing
gira is the best bouncer and bouncers are pretty good, ph also glues together some cores nicely. i've kinda soured on prank recently cause of it being vulnerable to sleep and struggling to actually do anything to moldy pdon (they can just tank the sleep if they want), but if you want to run a prank then gira will work
ogre is the best spdef in the tier and has a fuckton of sets
xern has the powerful attack "Moonblast" and can be used to many mischievous ends. i think it is a lot better than diancie because it can take hits from things that aren't 1 singular mray oblivion wing
Chansey (Imposter) Giratina (Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, Prankster, Teravolt) Primal Kyogre (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, Huge Power, Pixilate, Poison Heal, No Guard, Prankster) Xerneas (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, Pixilate, Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, No Guard, Shadow Tag)A
arc has a billion sets, can taunt its enemies, is trick immune, and also has good mixed stats which i value really highly. when your team is full of good mixed stat mons then you can make more freeform gameplans instead of having to play passive the whole time with your 0 attack slow wgs
moldy gar is surprisingly scary rn i think, resilient to a lot of prio and imp. wg can run a lot of different stuff, i've used trickscarf, subpass, toxic, taunt hazard, clodsie used spin, its cool
moldy pdon is fine but i don't like its imp matchup and i don't like how murky the breaking path can be against ph gira, so i usually use scarf on it and i think wg is the better set overall. wg is great, just pushes everyone around. there are other sets i haven't used yet like ate
mmx is simple and straightforward
i do not like moldy mray, it suffers from "broken but excruciating to actually use" syndrome, every team will have answers and you can maybe get through those but you're gonna be super reliant on void luck or subpass support. it is one of the best subpass recipients but requiring that is just offloading the inconsistency, and you also kinda struggle against eviolite imp whirlwinding you through the sub. speaking of imp, smash ray is another mon that you just aren't improofing. too much variance when using this guy in general, but mold no setup is perfectly usable, i like that one
huge power regi is probably the most consistent revenger and can slot cool stuff like wisp. moldy wg and stag are fine but can be more difficult to slot because you lose power
pert is the best wg smasher because you only need arrows so you can do whatever with the other slots. leagues better than garbage like the coverage fish wg smash xern
moldy gar is surprisingly scary rn i think, resilient to a lot of prio and imp. wg can run a lot of different stuff, i've used trickscarf, subpass, toxic, taunt hazard, clodsie used spin, its cool
moldy pdon is fine but i don't like its imp matchup and i don't like how murky the breaking path can be against ph gira, so i usually use scarf on it and i think wg is the better set overall. wg is great, just pushes everyone around. there are other sets i haven't used yet like ate
mmx is simple and straightforward
i do not like moldy mray, it suffers from "broken but excruciating to actually use" syndrome, every team will have answers and you can maybe get through those but you're gonna be super reliant on void luck or subpass support. it is one of the best subpass recipients but requiring that is just offloading the inconsistency, and you also kinda struggle against eviolite imp whirlwinding you through the sub. speaking of imp, smash ray is another mon that you just aren't improofing. too much variance when using this guy in general, but mold no setup is perfectly usable, i like that one
huge power regi is probably the most consistent revenger and can slot cool stuff like wisp. moldy wg and stag are fine but can be more difficult to slot because you lose power
pert is the best wg smasher because you only need arrows so you can do whatever with the other slots. leagues better than garbage like the coverage fish wg smash xern
Arceus (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, Huge Power, No Guard, Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, Shadow Tag) Mega Gengar (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, Normalize, No Guard) Primal Groudon (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, Huge Power, Shadow Tag) Mega Mewtwo X (Huge Power, Wonder Guard, Shadow Tag, Teravolt) Mega Rayquaza (Teravolt, Wonder Guard, Gale Wings) Regigigas/Slaking (Huge Power, Teravolt, Shadow Tag, Wonder Guard) Mega Swampert (Wonder Guard, Huge Power)A-
wg shed shell and ng subpass are both very consistent bee sets, wg coverage fish and wg black sludge are also fine
deos is very forcing due to being so fast so the opponent has to respect it. no guard can mess with them, wg is good at taunting opposing subpassers and subpassing itself, though it's a little passive unless you're slotting taunt + gastro and giving up on the subpass idea
gira-o could maybe drop but i think its chill, mold that can take hits, kinda like a physdef version of latias. also actually selfproof with a plate unlike some other things. very flexible and has a lot of room for experimentation
gyara is a little bit inconsistent but when it hits it really hits. the wg typing is really good also, i've brought shed shell wg smash gyara before, though you do value having eventual dark stab so i don't think it's very good. maybe if i used ascent
mold dragon/fire/filler heavy bulk invest latias is the best spinner in the tier and glues hazardstack together, you won't have issues with pursuiters because you just spike them down into draco range, easy. i would say latias is in general the 3rd best spdef after ogre and gyara, i value it over registeel cause if you miss a void vs registeel then you get whirlwinded but if you miss a void vs latias then you fucking die. the typing is pretty bad vs a lot of special attackers (hence the 3rd best spdef thing) but it's surprisingly good vs most stag guys so if you're healthy and bulk-invested you can be surprisingly hard to trap despite the lack of item slot
mmeta is the last "10 million sets" guy. likely belongs in a with some more experimentation. why do people think the subpass one is the only set that exists lol
registeel is the second best bouncer, passive as hell but that's acceptable if you're not getting taunted. prank is also underexplored
level 2 sab is a bit annoying to use vs moldy pdon and sometimes you run into pursuit, but moldy pursuit is pretty rare from my experience so it's probably chill. you can also easily slot a hazard or bp on this guy
yvel is also pretty underexplored, ph is pretty good and huge power is a very serviceable mon if you want something faster than giratina. another mon i could see rising over time
deos is very forcing due to being so fast so the opponent has to respect it. no guard can mess with them, wg is good at taunting opposing subpassers and subpassing itself, though it's a little passive unless you're slotting taunt + gastro and giving up on the subpass idea
gira-o could maybe drop but i think its chill, mold that can take hits, kinda like a physdef version of latias. also actually selfproof with a plate unlike some other things. very flexible and has a lot of room for experimentation
gyara is a little bit inconsistent but when it hits it really hits. the wg typing is really good also, i've brought shed shell wg smash gyara before, though you do value having eventual dark stab so i don't think it's very good. maybe if i used ascent
mold dragon/fire/filler heavy bulk invest latias is the best spinner in the tier and glues hazardstack together, you won't have issues with pursuiters because you just spike them down into draco range, easy. i would say latias is in general the 3rd best spdef after ogre and gyara, i value it over registeel cause if you miss a void vs registeel then you get whirlwinded but if you miss a void vs latias then you fucking die. the typing is pretty bad vs a lot of special attackers (hence the 3rd best spdef thing) but it's surprisingly good vs most stag guys so if you're healthy and bulk-invested you can be surprisingly hard to trap despite the lack of item slot
mmeta is the last "10 million sets" guy. likely belongs in a with some more experimentation. why do people think the subpass one is the only set that exists lol
registeel is the second best bouncer, passive as hell but that's acceptable if you're not getting taunted. prank is also underexplored
level 2 sab is a bit annoying to use vs moldy pdon and sometimes you run into pursuit, but moldy pursuit is pretty rare from my experience so it's probably chill. you can also easily slot a hazard or bp on this guy
yvel is also pretty underexplored, ph is pretty good and huge power is a very serviceable mon if you want something faster than giratina. another mon i could see rising over time
Mega Beedrill (Wonder Guard, No Guard) Deoxys-Speed (No Guard, Wonder Guard) Giratina-Origin (Teravolt, Huge Power, Prankster, Magic Bounce) Gyarados (Wonder Guard, Illusion, No Guard) Mega Latias (Teravolt, Protean, Magic Bounce, Prankster) Mega Metagross (Prankster, Magic Bounce, No Guard, Shadow Tag, Huge Power) Registeel (Magic Bounce, Prankster) Mega Sableye (Wonder Guard) Yveltal (Poison Heal, Huge Power, Prankster)B RANK
B+
aegi is a shitty version of giratina and registeel but you can use it if you have enough firepower to justify a more flimsy defensive core
prank aud is legit better than wg i think. wg aud is so fucking bad. yeah lemme get all the weaknesses of xern but then without stab moonblast, slower to make it easier to taunt, and with only a marginal bulk upgrade. pointless
i like the gastro deoa set but it's a little inconsistent vs bouncers and whirlwind guys. i should experiment with wg coverage spam, that's probably very good
dialga is good, it clicks doom desire and whirlwind, can also run weirder stuff like metagross probably
i think diancie is mostly worse than xern, the mold smash sets fail to leave an impression on me, but if you wanna run something like moldy specs or moldy sub + 3a it'll have your back. pixilate is also perfectly fine.
i do not think latios is that good, the hyper-aggressive 252/252 sets that were more common in the past are just bad and easy to trap or countersweep with imp, it's best to just not have your team rely that much on latios and focus on how to break through after it punches a hole and dies. if you need it to hit a specific roll then that's fine though
haven't used lugia in a while but anything fast and bulky can do shenanigans. maybe worse than i remember
mmane is okay, wish it was stronger but it's fast. you know what this does
i did some experimenting with no guard mmy, the idea is you run moonblast + fissure and have a basic no guard setup but without having to worry about sableye. pretty cool. unfortunately you need rocks to guarantee a kill on mray so it's a little speculative. other stuff is also chill just on the basis of being really fast, though i think wg is worse than deoa almost all the time, i don't know if the fantasy of living a hit from +2 ray and stopping it has ever actually happened in a game, while mmy has definitely been bullied by an opposing bee in game
meloetta loses to registeel but the wg typing is fantastic with faster bp to avoid every pursuit
mismagius is like meloetta except instead of taking special hits you can run leftovers and instead of boomburst you have shadowball
palk is another evil taunt spammer, you lose to moonblast but you're fast. maybe worse than zardx though
talon is chill, util and subpass are both fine sets
prank aud is legit better than wg i think. wg aud is so fucking bad. yeah lemme get all the weaknesses of xern but then without stab moonblast, slower to make it easier to taunt, and with only a marginal bulk upgrade. pointless
i like the gastro deoa set but it's a little inconsistent vs bouncers and whirlwind guys. i should experiment with wg coverage spam, that's probably very good
dialga is good, it clicks doom desire and whirlwind, can also run weirder stuff like metagross probably
i think diancie is mostly worse than xern, the mold smash sets fail to leave an impression on me, but if you wanna run something like moldy specs or moldy sub + 3a it'll have your back. pixilate is also perfectly fine.
i do not think latios is that good, the hyper-aggressive 252/252 sets that were more common in the past are just bad and easy to trap or countersweep with imp, it's best to just not have your team rely that much on latios and focus on how to break through after it punches a hole and dies. if you need it to hit a specific roll then that's fine though
haven't used lugia in a while but anything fast and bulky can do shenanigans. maybe worse than i remember
mmane is okay, wish it was stronger but it's fast. you know what this does
i did some experimenting with no guard mmy, the idea is you run moonblast + fissure and have a basic no guard setup but without having to worry about sableye. pretty cool. unfortunately you need rocks to guarantee a kill on mray so it's a little speculative. other stuff is also chill just on the basis of being really fast, though i think wg is worse than deoa almost all the time, i don't know if the fantasy of living a hit from +2 ray and stopping it has ever actually happened in a game, while mmy has definitely been bullied by an opposing bee in game
meloetta loses to registeel but the wg typing is fantastic with faster bp to avoid every pursuit
mismagius is like meloetta except instead of taking special hits you can run leftovers and instead of boomburst you have shadowball
palk is another evil taunt spammer, you lose to moonblast but you're fast. maybe worse than zardx though
talon is chill, util and subpass are both fine sets
Aegislash (Magic Bounce) Mega Audino (Prankster, Wonder Guard, Huge Power) Deoxys-Attack (Wonder Guard, No Guard, Huge Power) Dialga (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce, Teravolt) Mega Diancie (Pixilate, Teravolt) Mega Latios (Teravolt, Protean) Lugia (No Guard, Magic Bounce, Prankster, Teravolt) Mega Manectric (Wonder Guard, No Guard) Mega Mewtwo Y (No Guard, Protean, Wonder Guard, Illusion) Meloetta (Wonder Guard) Mismagius (Wonder Guard) Palkia (Wonder Guard) Talonflame (Wonder Guard)B
absol can go like wg trickscarf which i think is better than huge power because absol dies to everything, but huge power is also probably fine if you don't go scarf and just focus on beating giratina and friends. wg coverage spam is also usable if dubious
aero is fast and can do anything
altaria can troll her opponents
amp is a good deal less consistent than gyara because you're slow, lose to tspikes, lose to scarf stag arrows, and struggle more to break through spdef bouncers, but the post-mega power is higher and you can also sorta improof with your own chansey so there are real tradeoffs
zard x is like palkia but instead of losing to fairies and freeze dry you lose to arrows. which i think is actually overall better but i haven't tested it extensively
penguin is like kyogre but more consistent into no ground coverage special molds and also beats tspikes. pretty chill, can be annoying to slot a bouncer with it though
ferrothorn is ok i guess ive never used it
genesect is awesome, smash 3a is probably bad but it's still better than that terrible xern set cause you can run good combos like moonblast fire water or something. other sets also worth looking into
hooh is a surprisingly functional spdef if you can keep rocks off. i really wonder how consistent mg toxic orb is
hoopa-u is good for sure you just have to use attacks with his stats. beats every common stag type (fairy is really rare from my exp) so you can legit slot lum.
kyub is fine just based on the power level but the rock weakness is a little annoying
bunny will be good once wg actually gets labbed out as a set so i dont immediately assume ng on preview
lucario is maybe better than this but ive never used it because again the only known set is smash 3a and that sounds so inconsistent
ludicolo is fine but it's a little slow and passive. whenever i used ludi in the past it was always trickscarf to alleviate this
pinsir is epic. the wg typing is a lot better than it looks and you can stab uturn into bouncers and rocks -> taunt into everything else. fuck yeah
probo is mostly to beat mray but it works, i haven't seen so many fighting moves flying around recently
scizor is one of those mons that's about as good with attacks as without them but if you run no attacks scizor i'll fly into your house and bite your head off
utility thund works, offthund is for sure underexplored
aero is fast and can do anything
altaria can troll her opponents
amp is a good deal less consistent than gyara because you're slow, lose to tspikes, lose to scarf stag arrows, and struggle more to break through spdef bouncers, but the post-mega power is higher and you can also sorta improof with your own chansey so there are real tradeoffs
zard x is like palkia but instead of losing to fairies and freeze dry you lose to arrows. which i think is actually overall better but i haven't tested it extensively
penguin is like kyogre but more consistent into no ground coverage special molds and also beats tspikes. pretty chill, can be annoying to slot a bouncer with it though
ferrothorn is ok i guess ive never used it
genesect is awesome, smash 3a is probably bad but it's still better than that terrible xern set cause you can run good combos like moonblast fire water or something. other sets also worth looking into
hooh is a surprisingly functional spdef if you can keep rocks off. i really wonder how consistent mg toxic orb is
hoopa-u is good for sure you just have to use attacks with his stats. beats every common stag type (fairy is really rare from my exp) so you can legit slot lum.
kyub is fine just based on the power level but the rock weakness is a little annoying
bunny will be good once wg actually gets labbed out as a set so i dont immediately assume ng on preview
lucario is maybe better than this but ive never used it because again the only known set is smash 3a and that sounds so inconsistent
ludicolo is fine but it's a little slow and passive. whenever i used ludi in the past it was always trickscarf to alleviate this
pinsir is epic. the wg typing is a lot better than it looks and you can stab uturn into bouncers and rocks -> taunt into everything else. fuck yeah
probo is mostly to beat mray but it works, i haven't seen so many fighting moves flying around recently
scizor is one of those mons that's about as good with attacks as without them but if you run no attacks scizor i'll fly into your house and bite your head off
utility thund works, offthund is for sure underexplored
Mega Absol (Wonder Guard, Huge Power) Mega Aerodactyl (Wonder Guard, No Guard, Poison Heal, Teravolt) Altaria (Illusion, Shadow Tag) Ampharos (Wonder Guard, Illusion) Mega Charizard X/Reshiram (Wonder Guard) Empoleon (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce, Prankster) Ferrothorn (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce, Prankster) Genesect (Wonder Guard) Ho-Oh (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Teravolt) Hoopa-Unbound (Wonder Guard, Huge Power) Kyurem-Black (Wonder Guard, Huge Power, Refrigerate) Mega Lopunny (No Guard, Wonder Guard) Mega Lucario (Wonder Guard) Ludicolo (Wonder Guard) Pinsir (Wonder Guard, Illusion, Shadow Tag) Probopass (Magic Bounce) Mega Scizor (Wonder Guard, Huge Power, Teravolt) Thundurus (Wonder Guard)B-
wg blissey is not good at all. even if you get your favored matchup into a special mold, all it can do is whirlwind them out a couple times and hope you win in the meantime somehow. loses to taunt and dies in every endgame. imp is fine if you aren't using eviolite but i like eviolite
zard y is a talon sidegrade that can actually do damage
crobat is like a bee that doesn't absorb tspikes, but you can click chatter so it's ok
escavalier clicks gyro ball i guess. idk ive like never seen it
chomp is so unambiguously threatening that i would feel wrong putting this any lower. definitely can do things
mgarde has basically 1 set and it's the coverage fish one. non-wg is really dubious because you like die to shuriken. mon is really dubious in general it's like xern with more weaknesses
i don't fucking know what kyuw does but it resists shuriken at least. smash void 2a is probably okay but probably done better by other dragons
lando is similar to thund but weak to shuriken so harder to make offensive sets work. you can still try it though. best known for cteaming dual mmx
pidgeot is kind of funny
mence is decent, aerilate won't hit many things super effectively (i put alt higher because luring gira is very nice) but it's fast and consistent at revenging
scept hates all the spdef steels and ice shards used in preparation for mray, but it's fast and has spore
skuntank absorbs tspikes i guess
tentacruel absorbs tspikes but can click scald against pdon also so i think it's better
ttar has a billion weaknesses and is slow but its beefy and resists flying so it has some uses
umbreon exists
venusaur absorbs tspikes and i dont really know what else lol
volcarona is awesome, offensive is probably legit good, but rocks weakness is ever-present of course
zard y is a talon sidegrade that can actually do damage
crobat is like a bee that doesn't absorb tspikes, but you can click chatter so it's ok
escavalier clicks gyro ball i guess. idk ive like never seen it
chomp is so unambiguously threatening that i would feel wrong putting this any lower. definitely can do things
mgarde has basically 1 set and it's the coverage fish one. non-wg is really dubious because you like die to shuriken. mon is really dubious in general it's like xern with more weaknesses
i don't fucking know what kyuw does but it resists shuriken at least. smash void 2a is probably okay but probably done better by other dragons
lando is similar to thund but weak to shuriken so harder to make offensive sets work. you can still try it though. best known for cteaming dual mmx
pidgeot is kind of funny
mence is decent, aerilate won't hit many things super effectively (i put alt higher because luring gira is very nice) but it's fast and consistent at revenging
scept hates all the spdef steels and ice shards used in preparation for mray, but it's fast and has spore
skuntank absorbs tspikes i guess
tentacruel absorbs tspikes but can click scald against pdon also so i think it's better
ttar has a billion weaknesses and is slow but its beefy and resists flying so it has some uses
umbreon exists
venusaur absorbs tspikes and i dont really know what else lol
volcarona is awesome, offensive is probably legit good, but rocks weakness is ever-present of course
Blissey (Imposter, Wonder Guard) Mega Charizard Y (Wonder Guard) Crobat (Wonder Guard) Escavalier (Wonder Guard) Mega Garchomp (Wonder Guard, Teravolt) Mega Gardevoir (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, No Guard) Kyurem-White (Teravolt, Wonder Guard) Landorus (Wonder Guard) Pidgeot (Illusion, Shadow Tag) Salamence (Illusion, Shadow Tag) Mega Sceptile (Wonder Guard, Teravolt, No Guard) Skuntank (Wonder Guard) Tentacruel (Wonder Guard) Mega Tyranitar (Huge Power, Magic Bounce, Poison Heal) Umbreon (Poison Heal) Mega Venusaur (Prankster, Teravolt) Volcarona (Wonder Guard)C
Articuno (Wonder Guard) Mega Banette (Wonder Guard, Teravolt) Mega Blaziken (Wonder Guard, Huge Power, Teravolt) Cobalion (No Guard) Durant (Wonder Guard, No Guard) Glalie (Shadow Tag, Illusion, Wonder Guard) Heatran (Magic Bounce, Desolate Land) Keldeo (Shadow Tag, Wonder Guard) Klefki (Wonder Guard) Magnezone (Magic Bounce, Wonder Guard) Mega Salamence (Wonder Guard, Teravolt) Shaymin-Sky (Wonder Guard, No Guard, Teravolt, Aerilate) Shuckle (Wonder Guard, Prankster, Magic Bounce, Poison Heal) Snorlax (Wonder Guard, Prankster, Magic Bounce) Starmie (No Guard) The Squad (Level 2 Wonder Guard) Virizion (No Guard) Volcanion (Magic Bounce, Wonder Guard, No Guard)
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