ORASPL IV - Format Discussion

[velvet]

Amazing art by stexx

With ORASPL IV coming up we are opening up a discussion about the tournament's format.
​

Last year's format consisted of:

• ORAS Ubers
• ORAS OU
• ORAS OU
• ORAS UU
• ORAS RU
• ORAS NU
• ORAS LC
• ORAS Monotype

This year, we would like to primarily bring up the discussion in adding two extra slots into the mix, with the tiers being ORAS DOU and/or ORAS PU. We are very interested in the community's thoughts and concerns for this coming PL so please discuss away your comments on the next iteration.

• ORAS Ubers
• ORAS OU
• ORAS OU
• ORAS DOU
• ORAS UU
• ORAS RU
• ORAS NU
• ORAS PU
• ORAS LC
• ORAS Monotype / ORAS OU [Suspect Slot] / 3rd ORAS OU

^^^

Other Discussion Topics:

• Should we stick with the 8 slot + the traditional 120k budget with 10 minimum players or 10 slot + increase it to 140k budget with minimum of 14 players.
• Should Monotype stay included in this iteration or be swapped for a Suspect slot or third ORAS OU slot.
• We're interested in the community's thoughts about a 10-slot format.

If you feel strongly about any of the above, now's your chance to give input. Please include an explanation for your responses to the specific slot selection.

This thread will stay open until July 28th @ 11:59PM GMT-7.

 

[Oathkeeper]

I am 100% all for putting PU in there. The fact that it wasn't there last time is a travesty lol. And sure, why not DOU!? With respect to the budget and slots, 10 slots and 14 players min. is what I'd cast my vote for. As a returning manager, keep it at 8 teams ofc.

 

[KamenAlliterator]

I’m REALLY looking forward to seeing DOU in the PL. It’s not very often I see Gen 6 Doubles being played as often anymore, so seeing it being added really makes me happy. I don’t mind the 10-Slot format either but then again people might not like the change, so i’m kind of neutral about it.

 

[Ruffles]

I'm in full support of DOU.
PU is fine, if people want it, I have no qualms about.

Personally, I would suggest a ORAS OU (Suspect) tier over monotype. Monotype, as much fun as it can be, can be a bit mu fishy. I never played monotype in tours so maybe I'm wrong and maybe a lot of people want to keep it, but an ORAS OU (Suspect) is probably something that would be more popular.

We can oscillate between unbanning a mon each week (ex: greninja, hoopa, reshiram, etc.), or banning a mon (like volcarona, manaphy, excadrill (!), etc.) for one week.

It would be quite fun for the entire team to help in prep, and it would also be interesting to see from a meta perspective as a small minority in ORAS are in favor of bans like Volcarona or Manaphy, or in unbanning mons like Mega Sableye, so it would be very interesting to see it play out for 1 week.

 

[Egor]

ou is by far the most played tier of this generation, to no ones surprise; i believe having only 2 slots to represent it is a massive joke. every other gen pl has at least 3 ou slots, and there are gens with certainly more active lowtier playerbases than oras. if we wanna do 10 slots then i think we surely should add an ou slot alongside a lowtier/dou if not outright 2 ous. if we keep 8 slots then i vouch for excluding one slot in favor of ou (idk which one slot since im quite far from non-ou playerbases). an ou suspect slot could indeed be fun but doesnt seem necessary since our larger playerbase hasnt been really vocal about any tier changes recently

 

[Ruffles]

I think LC through Ubers is default. So the real question is the Monotype tier.

I think I would rather have ORAS OU or ORAS OU (Suspect) over Monotype for sure, even though I quite like monotype. And as Egor said this would be more in line with the other PLs. The suspect tier is definitely not necessary, but it would keep the "fun vibes" of monotype while being more interesting and more competitive. Ultimately a 3rd OU slot would be the most competitive option.

I would be excited for either option

 

[hex]

Monotype, as much fun as it can be, can be a bit mu fishy.

As someone who managed this tour to finals before and wants to manage again, I'm very excited for Monotype to be included/have consideration in this tour since ORAS has been the only tier to my knowledge to include Monotype in its Premier League. ORAS Monotype while not my favorite Mono old gen has had a lot of progression with recent bans (recent is used loosely) in Keldeo and Deo S, which changed the meta a lot and the tier has stabilized since. There's been enough back and forth on the SCL threads with this matchup moment stuff that I'm not gonna get into but I just don't think its worth throwing this rhetoric around when you admit in the next sentence you don't play the tier.

I'm not invested with OU as much as I am low tiers (I keep up with it still) but I feel like suspect slots get thrown into these PLs and don't really get expanded on further by councils (feel free to quote me if I'm wrong) and the tour has been completely functional with 2 OU slots. I don't see the reason to exclude a community atp and feel like 10 slots with DOU and PU and keeping Monotype would be best. Both SM and SS PL's have 10 slots and I don't see why this tour can't do that as well. There's really no comparison between the vibes of OU Suspect and Monotype because its not like Monotype players are gonna sign up for OU Suspect if Monotype is gone. Looking at the pool from last ORAS PL the Mono pool looked rlly strong and in my experience suspect slots end up being not that fun in practice honestly lol if we're being real with ourselves the social engagement of these tours aren't that high and only super super dedicated mainers are gonna be invested in building new suspect teams each week. OU is only 2 of the 8 or 10 slots and the tour is supposed to showcase ORAS as a gen hence being called ORASPL. I feel like axing PU or DOU in slot for another OU if 8 slots is kept is also incredibly silly, I've just never seen the reason to exclude communities in a hobby we all enjoy playing.

 

[Ruffles]

As someone who managed this tour to finals before and wants to manage again, I'm very excited for Monotype to be included/have consideration in this tour since ORAS has been the only tier to my knowledge to include Monotype in its Premier League. ORAS Monotype while not my favorite Mono old gen has had a lot of progression with recent bans (recent is used loosely) in Keldeo and Deo S, which changed the meta a lot and the tier has stabilized since. There's been enough back and forth on the SCL threads with this matchup moment stuff that I'm not gonna get into but I just don't think its worth throwing this rhetoric around when you admit in the next sentence you don't play the tier.

I'm not invested with OU as much as I am low tiers (I keep up with it still) but I feel like suspect slots get thrown into these PLs and don't really get expanded on further by councils (feel free to quote me if I'm wrong) and the tour has been completely functional with 2 OU slots. I don't see the reason to exclude a community atp and feel like 10 slots with DOU and PU and keeping Monotype would be best. Both SM and SS PL's have 10 slots and I don't see why this tour can't do that as well. There's really no comparison between the vibes of OU Suspect and Monotype because its not like Monotype players are gonna sign up for OU Suspect if Monotype is gone. Looking at the pool from last ORAS PL the Mono pool looked rlly strong and in my experience suspect slots end up being not that fun in practice honestly lol if we're being real with ourselves the social engagement of these tours aren't that high and only super super dedicated mainers are gonna be invested in building new suspect teams each week. OU is only 2 of the 8 or 10 slots and the tour is supposed to showcase ORAS as a gen hence being called ORASPL. I feel like axing PU or DOU in slot for another OU if 8 slots is kept is also incredibly silly, I've just never seen the reason to exclude communities in a hobby we all enjoy playing.

Having 10 spots but only 2 OU spots is pure nonsense. Not only does no other PL do this, but ORAS OU is by far and away the most popular tier and no other lower tier even comes close to it. Furthermore, the discrepancy of activity between OU and ORAS lower tiers is even more stark than other gens. I only suggested suspect tier because it's fun, it doesn't really have to do with anything related to tiering. Yes this PL is dedicated for ORAS as a gen so obviously mainers are going to sign up and enjoy building for suspect.

ORAS is most similar to SS, SM, and BW, and we can see that all of them include 3 OUs, DOU, PU, and absolutely no monotype. SM is the only one that has a suspect tier, which ORASPL could do that or just a third OU slot.

For reference, not a single other PL includes monotype, and I see no reason to include it here either. It's unfortunate that it feels like we are axing a community but it should have never been here in the first place. It's cool that you are passionate about Monotype, but I suggest you fight for it as an 11th spot, as it doesn't belong in 8 or 10 slots.

 

[zee]

Very excited to see DOU back in the discussion. As someone who played during ORASPL 1 and 2, having it taken away from the tour last year was very sad for myself and many more members of the DOU community. This is one of our most beloved and active old gen tiers and will absolutely produce a competitive lineup of players.

 

[hex]

Not only does no other PL do this,

ORAS is most similar to SS, SM, and BW,

Is there some objective reasoning I'm missing that you feel the need ORASPL should make itself identical to SM and SSPL? It just seems like a weird arbitrary reach to put down Monotype. Especially since you go to say that the only tier PL to do a suspect slot is SM and you're suggesting ORAS do it. So clearly it shouldn't matter at all whether or not ORAS or SM are doing their own things in their PLs?? This is also a stark difference from you saying you would be excited for either option into shutting it down completely and calling a non 3 slot ou tour nonsense lmfao, shoulda just said to begin with, feels like you didn't expect anyone to try and argue for Monotype's inclusion. Saying it should've never been here to begin with seems very strong cuz no offense who is anyone to decide that. Also, saying ORAS is most similar to BW seems like a very.....interesting! take, considering Masters was basically conceived because most of the website unanimously agreed there was nothing similar about ORAS and classic gens.

Yes this PL is dedicated for ORAS as a gen so obviously mainers are going to sign up and enjoy building for suspect.

I think I may have not conveyed myself well or something but that wasn't my point lol. The level of activity in these team tours usually aren't high unless people just draft a lot of their friends imo and obviously, I could very well be wrong in some cases. However, in my experience as both manager and player etc. they aren't the most active, and I'm saying the amount of people (yes, including mainers) who are going to be actively building new teams for suspect is very small and even then the players you would expect to be building Suspect OU aren't always gonna wanna build it nor intend to, so the predicted engagement of suspect slots as a tier usually fall incredibly short and don't result in a net positive experience. These tours should showcase the generation and its history. Of course OU is apart of that, but OU is again at most making up 30% of the lineup compared to the 70% of it being literally anything else.

At the end of the day I don't rly care and I'm not gonna continue to go back and forth after this post, the tour will be fun regardless but these arguments just seem incredibly nonsensical. I just dislike it when people who have never played or touched the tier say "Monotype matchup tier" and move on because it keeps putting Monotype as a tier light years behind anything else when it comes to inclusion. Not to mention that topic has been beat like a dead horse for multiple years now. Everything Zee said in their post you can just apply to Monotype and it remains the same. Randomly got taken out of the tour (well at least when I managed it was), put back in, and still housed a competitive player pool so...I really don't see the issue. Regardless whatever the mods or hosts decide will be good , definitely include PU and DOU though, axing both is still really silly rofl.

 

[kiru]

Out of 31 replays observed in the previous ORAS PL, Monotype has had only 8 type advantage matchups on preview. Out of these 8 games, the type that’s expected to win on paper (such as Water beating Fire), out of those matchups, 5 types that are supposedly to lose on paper prevailed in wins. This means yes, Psychic has won against Dark, Steel has won against Ground, Fire has defeated Ground, and many more. The flawed and dragged argument of ORAS Monotype being a matchup based tier isn’t reflective on the results of the tier.

The reason why Monotype isn’t featured during Gens 1-4 is simply due to those tiers not having enough interest or a competitive player base to be considered for those respective ROAPLs. BW Monotype can be vouched for but I haven’t seen anyone fighting for that interest to be in BWPL. ORAS can’t even be compared to these 5 tiers either because this tier was an official tier during Gen6. There has been a lot of behind the scene work with tier leadership in the past to shape this tier with Keldeo and Deoxys-Speed bans. Right before this tier got featured into ORAS PL, me and twinkay formed a team to have reliable resources to help Smogon learn the tier post-bans. Of course this isn’t a CG tier and like any old generation tier featured here, there is a respective community that probably updated things when feel warranted.

Type Matchup is not an alarming issue and that’s not a problem for ORAS Monotype. This tier being featured here really showcased a really high skill bar and the managers even decided to pick Monotype as the tier for Tiebreak which didn’t fall to matchup btw. If matchup happens a lot of times it’s winnable and we are really grateful that Monotype was even consider to be featured here out of all of the ROA tournaments. ROA is meant to tie tiers together, let’s not end this story due to ignorance and false information.

 

[Ruffles]

Bruh

It's really not that difficult lmao. It makes sense to follow the format every PL is following, it makes less sense to include a tier no other PL is including at the cost of PU, DOU, or a 3rd OU slot. If we go for 10 spots we must include 3 OU slots that is all, it literally makes zero sense not to. If ya'll really want monotype go ahead and argue for it, just keep a 3rd OU slot.

I'm not gonna go back and forth over pokemon, especially with someone so argumentative. I got better things to do and the mods will choose anyway.

 

[Arcticblast]

I don't have a good logical argument as to why any one format should take precedence over another, but it did feel really bad when DOU lost its slot last year; ORASPL had become a bit of a DOU event in its own right and we were all pretty upset to not get included again.

 

[DugZa]

I'm surprised that Monotype isn't a lock this year, especially not even in the proposed 10-slot format. In comparison, PU and DOU are locked in with 10 slots when Monotype got more votes to be included in the 8-slot format last year. Both of those tiers didn't get enough votes to be included and this is coming from a PU council member and forum mod so I'm not biased against PU (or DOU), just being objective. Monotype had a strong pool last year and had a good showing too so the fact that it has to contend with a third OU slot while other tiers are locked is ridiculous. It also beat the matchup tier allegations time and time again (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and more...) since that's an argument a lot of people like to use to dismiss the tier from any serious discussion.

Removing a tier that had a good pool and a great showing last year for two tiers that weren't even on the tour last year is a big mistake. Mirroring other old gen PLs sounds pretty silly too because then go ahead and add ZU as well since BWPL does it or two Ubers and two UU slots since DPPPL does it. Comparing with other old gen PLs is flawed so trying to mirror them is just going to set everything back for no reason. Also, suspect slots are quite awful because nothing ever comes out of those slots; we've had suspect slots in so many tours at this point and no tiering action has happened as a result of those slots, people are lazy most of the time and just end up reusing normal meta teams that will be legal in the suspect slot too.

Just make it 10 slots so every tier can be added with 2 OU slots.

 

[Ithi]

This is some great discussing going on, and I'd like to throw in some of my own input;

I genuinely believe trying to model us after other pls while completely understandable, is rather boring isn't it? Every PL should ideally reflect the playerbase's intentions with the tiers that are and aren't played within the generation. There's plenty of other OU tournaments for ORAS such as ssnl, spl, gcs, and the rare ladder tournament should we ever host one again. I also have no real argument for why one tier should take up a slot as opposed to another, but after reading through the thread I do agree with Ruffles take of there being at least 3 ou slots considering we're up to 10 and its the most popular tier in this generation, and there's a few niche tiers among the list like again, monotype, dou and even LC I'd argue that we have kept in the tour year after year.

But my personal take is - We can totally sacrifice an OU Slot for the sake of diversity to really see all the cool stuff that's been going on in this generation, and I'm personally super excited to see how much monotype has shaped up over the years. ORAS PL is again, about oras and it should best reflect/celebrate everything the generation has to offer to spark interest among the playerbase

 

[Vileman]

I won't participate but stuff I've gathered from participating/spectating premier leagues like these:

• Suspect slots are a waste of space. People will mostly use stuff that's not even using the suspected mon and even if they do use the suspected mon this won't realistically lead to actual tiering action. Don't waste a slot with this.
• There's way too many capable ou players for there to only be 2 slots. 3 at minimum.
• DOU should be in. There's a good playerbase with good interest.
• Monotype should probably be in but not over the 2 points I made above.

 

[KyleCole]

Hi all KyleCole here. For those of you who don’t know me I’m a long time DOU player. But I am so much more than that. Ive been gambling my financial future in GameStop stock since 2020, i am a controversial art critic (Naruto never should’ve become hokage), and all of my shirts have graphics from rock albums that were released before I was born. I also have a producers credit on the upcoming film “Joker 2”.

Dou needs to be in this tournament. ORAS Doubles is the foundation of the doubles community and the competitive scene of today. Even the doubles oldgens that precede xy found lifeblood largely from a player base which arose in 2015/2016. Those of us old heads who haven’t been perma banned yet continue to enjoy ORAS alongside a freshman class who found it during COVID, and if the tier is included in ORASPL any manager would be spoiled for choice in a crowd of dedicated players.

 

[violet river]

throwing my hat in the ring having played a lot of the recent pls -
it's no secret that doubles is competitive. there won't be a shortage of strong players, sure. but the issue isnt that its too hard for managers to scout or whatever, boohoo, that's a joke. the issue is that this is a Team Tournament. when playing in this tours, you watch your teammates play with your heart in your throat, as a singles player watching other singles players play even if its a different tier theres still a level of tier-transcending understanding that helps a: prep b: swap your lineup c: the sense of being in a team. Doubles is fundamentally so different from singles that it's alienating. It's so ass teaming with people on a doubles slot and basically not being able to help them at all. Also, there's like zero flexibility - as a manager you draft one doubles player because very few people can flex in and out of it, and if they suck/cancer/tilt out of the tour/have no friends to support them, there is legit nothing you can do.
tldr: having DOU in helps the doubles community but its gna b a shit experience to team with + doesnt rly contribute to the tour as a whole imo because of the alienating factors and the inherent difference from singles.

 

[Ruffles]

I'm surprised that Monotype isn't a lock this year, especially not even in the proposed 10-slot format. In comparison, PU and DOU are locked in with 10 slots when Monotype got more votes to be included in the 8-slot format last year. Both of those tiers didn't get enough votes to be included and this is coming from a PU council member and forum mod so I'm not biased against PU (or DOU), just being objective. Monotype had a strong pool last year and had a good showing too so the fact that it has to contend with a third OU slot while other tiers are locked is ridiculous. It also beat the matchup tier allegations time and time again (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and more...) since that's an argument a lot of people like to use to dismiss the tier from any serious discussion.

Removing a tier that had a good pool and a great showing last year for two tiers that weren't even on the tour last year is a big mistake. Mirroring other old gen PLs sounds pretty silly too because then go ahead and add ZU as well since BWPL does it or two Ubers and two UU slots since DPPPL does it. Comparing with other old gen PLs is flawed so trying to mirror them is just going to set everything back for no reason. Also, suspect slots are quite awful because nothing ever comes out of those slots; we've had suspect slots in so many tours at this point and no tiering action has happened as a result of those slots, people are lazy most of the time and just end up reusing normal meta teams that will be legal in the suspect slot too.

Just make it 10 slots so every tier can be added with 2 OU slots.

Why not have 3 OU slots, include monotype, and exclude PU then?
If this many people want monotype then just have it contend with PU and DOU.

We could also run some sort of vote. I’m not 100% sure how the results would look but I’d be surprised if a 3rd OU slot didn’t win. And it sounds like monotype would beat PU in popularity.
or have 11 slots and include everything

 

[Arcticblast]

throwing my hat in the ring having played a lot of the recent pls -
it's no secret that doubles is competitive. there won't be a shortage of strong players, sure. but the issue isnt that its too hard for managers to scout or whatever, boohoo, that's a joke. the issue is that this is a Team Tournament. when playing in this tours, you watch your teammates play with your heart in your throat, as a singles player watching other singles players play even if its a different tier theres still a level of tier-transcending understanding that helps a: prep b: swap your lineup c: the sense of being in a team. Doubles is fundamentally so different from singles that it's alienating. It's so ass teaming with people on a doubles slot and basically not being able to help them at all. Also, there's like zero flexibility - as a manager you draft one doubles player because very few people can flex in and out of it, and if they suck/cancer/tilt out of the tour/have no friends to support them, there is legit nothing you can do.
tldr: having DOU in helps the doubles community but its gna b a shit experience to team with + doesnt rly contribute to the tour as a whole imo because of the alienating factors and the inherent difference from singles.

I promise you that as long as you have a pulse and don’t click Fake Out two turns in a row, you can play DOU. Pokemon is Pokemon, and while there are obviously some differences (like a slightly higher emphasis on positioning and short term plays), the fundamentals are the same. You can pick it up in a pinch just like any of the DOU players can pick up a singles tier in a pinch. Are we going to be immediately amazing at that? No, but I don’t think we need to be to help you find a Lando-T weakness.

 

[SingleThunder]

XY DOU council member here. Was very upset to see XY gone last year and I had a lot of fun playing in in RoA when DOU was represented. Our oldgens players is very active and can definitely field a competitive draft and engaging season for PL. Singles players have flexed into doubles before if that's a concern, and it went well enough. Put XY DOU in.

 

[xray]

monotype heat af, obviously need more ou.. delete one of the tiers where they use unreal or broken pkmn (ubers, pu, lc w.e)

my man ruffler too real again

 

[velvet]

OHAYO!

At this time, we'll be moving forward, meaning this thread is now closed.

The format for ORAS IV will include the following 10 slots:

• ORAS Ubers
• ORAS OU
• ORAS OU
• ORAS OU
• ORAS DOU
• ORAS UU
• ORAS RU
• ORAS NU
• ORAS LC
• ORAS Monotype

We will be changing the budget this year, details below:

• 140k budget
• Minimum players of 14 and managers are allowed a total of 3 retains and/or manager self-buys.