• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]

@Tomahawk

Scarfnape sounds good for being able to take a few BPs from Scizor, but my problem is that it can't revenge kill Dragonite, as ES at +1 does 66.55 - 78.49% and 86.68 - 102.04% if it has LO, which means that after a bit of damage, we will be unable to revenge kill it. Not only this, but even if we kill it, our team could then be easily swept by CB Scizor, or SD Scizor as BP would easily ohko.

To the guys suggesting LO on Zapdos. It is a bad idea because after you take 2 Hurricanes from Tornadus and SR damage, you are going to die from LO damage. So i am going to nominate this set(if Woodchuck wants, this set is his, as he gave the idea, so he just has to say it):

Zapdos@ Expert Belt
Modest Nature
EVs: 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power Flying
- Roost

Expert Belt gives to Zapdos an excellent power boost, without jeopardizing it's bulk. With EB, Volt Switch ohkos Tornadus and Heat Wave has a 81.25% chance to ohko Scizor after SR IN RAIN, so all our bug problems should be solved. HP Flying is an unconditional ohko on unboosted Virizion and does 85.8 - 102.16% at +1.
Volt Switch is way better than Discharge on such a team, for obvious reasons, and for some other, less obvious such as breaking Dnites MS, while we go to our answer (a revenge killer most probably such as Mienshao or Terrakion), and since Zapdos is slower, our revenge killer will come in unscathed.
Also with EB, offensive Volcarona still can't set-up on us, since HP Flying does 51.44 - 62.37% at +1, OHKO after SR (and bulkyRona sets up on us even with Drill Peck).

In addition to Zapdos i would like to nominate Scarf Terrakion.

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Jolly Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide

Terrakion pairs excellently with Zapdos, killing Dnite and bulky Volcarona that Zapdos fails to beat. Not only this, but Terrakion doesn't have to worry about switching in, as VS will ensure that he gets in safe (both DDnite and Volcarona are faster than Zapdos). While it may seem that 3 Scizor weak pokes are too much, we don't really mind because we have Zapdos, which has reliable recovery and can beat Scizor all day even in rain.
 
388.png

Deoxys-D @ Fire Gem / Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 140 HP / 188 SAtk / 180 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Taunt / Psycho Boost / Ice Beam

So people seem to be trying to cover the Scizor weakness now. Deoxys-D works as a cool lure for Scizor with Fire Gem Hidden Power [Fire] OHKOing. All offensive teams need a reliable hazards user, and Deoxys-D is one of the most reliable available, still boasting an impressive set of defenses even with a more offensively-inclined EV spread.

Obviously this set needs to be careful of Dragonite, Volcarona etc but with Taunt, Dragonite doesn't even get a chance to set-up and Volcarona is limited to only 1 Quiver Dance, allowing something like a Dragonite of our own to revenge-kill it pretty easily.

I wasn't going to nominate this until a later stage but I really don't want something like defensive Zapdos being chosen to patch-up the Scizor weakness when Deoxys-D does it even better without compromising the offense thing we have going here.
 
Really like the Moxie Scarf Gyara suggestion Tomahawk. Was gunna nom it myself but w/e, nominating is not my thing, discussing shit is. Anyway, im really posting to make a point to you PenguinX.

Deoxys D is an excellent pokemon, and it _can_ lure in Scizor however we really must bear in mind that this team is open to anyone. John Smith and his best friend can take a look plus, our team having something uncommon as Zoroark sticks in the mind and people can think "Oh, I know this team!". Therefore, as a basic lure, Deoxys D is going to struggle.

There are other issues, firstly, you HAVE to have Taunt otherwise you are utter set up bait, for a crap load of things, and this team really, really doesn't want that. Secondly, you are suck with a base 70 attack that gets no stap. This means that basically anything faster than you with a boosting move can set up on you. For example, Rain Volcarona can switch in, not give a shit what you do, Quiver Dance up (or straight up attack with Hurricane if it predicts the switch) and then go to town. Countering +1 Volcarona is tricky, especially when it can just switch out after the KO, spin the hazards, and try again later. Even if they decide not to switch out, im not sure I like Dragonite takeing SR, and then a +1 Hurricane from Volcarona (heck i think LO +1 Volcarona OHKOs) as Dragonite might be needed for something else.

You also need to run more speed. Currently, you tie with neutral DD Gyarados which we really DON'T want to give a free set up opportunity, while shit like Adamant Lucario, Kyurem and Haxorus can all steal a free boost and go to town.

Finally, there is also the big point that Deoxys D does not really help us coutner Scizor. This was the problem we had with out last cap. Nidoking could KO Scizor with a fire move, we even had Fire Punch Jirachi at one stage as well however, we were still destroyed by it as we had NOTHING to switch into U-Turn and a Bullet Punch. Deoxys D might be able to kill Scizor 1v1 (although as I stated above, this has problems with opponents knowing our team) however, it cannot switch in and thus we would need something else to take care of Scizor.

RE: My thoughts

Right about now im really liking Gyarados. It lets up set up on Scizor, and gives us a solid switch to it, and it can check Volcarona I guess if we were in a tight spot. Certainly, its not utter fodder for it which is nothing but a good thing. I have gone off Terrakion since its Bullet Punch weak, however stuff like Terrakion, Mence, and Landorus (all scarf) are pokemon I would consider looking at again later in the team-mate stage. Zapdos is kinda cool too, but on reflection, I don't like how Dragons can set up for free, in addition to Terrakion and Landorus (tho Zapdos cannot really help itself against Terrakion as Terrakion can pretty much destroy it) so yea, I like Gyarados. Weakness to Rotom W kinda sucks but Rotom W itself can be easily handled by chucking in a grass type somewhere (maybe Virizion?) and everythings cool again.

EDIT @ below

yes I was aware that you nominated Scarf Terrakion to be used in conjunction with Zapdos, I was discussing Zapdos in a void (as its the best way to compare pokemon. Yea, sure you can runa revenger to beat them, I could run a revenger to beat anything that sets up on Gyara and we get nowhere. I was comparing them, and was stating that I dislike the free turns the Dragons give them. They set up for free when Volt Switch does fuck all and they get a free turn to boost / spam DM if your Latios, Outrage if your Dragonite
 
ginganinja said:
RE: My thoughts

Right about now im really liking Gyarados. It lets up set up on Scizor, and gives us a solid switch to it, and it can check Volcarona I guess if we were in a tight spot. Certainly, its not utter fodder for it which is nothing but a good thing. I have gone off Terrakion since its Bullet Punch weak, however stuff like Terrakion, Mence, and Landorus (all scarf) are pokemon I would consider looking at again later in the team-mate stage. Zapdos is kinda cool too, but on reflection, I don't like how Dragons can set up for free, in addition to Terrakion and Landorus (tho Zapdos cannot really help itself against Terrakion as Terrakion can pretty much destroy it) so yea, I like Gyarados. Weakness to Rotom W kinda sucks but Rotom W itself can be easily handled by chucking in a grass type somewhere (maybe Virizion?) and everythings cool again.
Click to expand...
They can't really set-up for free, since Zapdos has Volt Switch, and i also nominated Scarf Terra, which stops anything that could set-up on Zapdos (except Rock Polish Terra).
 
I think Zapdos is a great Pokemon, but it wants both Roost and a move to deal with set-up sweepers it can't kill. However, there's a simple solution to that.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe (copied from the other suggestions)
Modest Nature
- Discharge / Volt Switch
- HP Flying / Drill Peck
- Roost
- Roar / Thunder Wave

Everyone seems to think that Heat Wave is irreplaceable. Our STAB still hits Scizor hard, and it's not like Scizor can do anything back to Zapdos, so we can just wear it down. STAB Flying and Roost have been explained. The last slot is for set-up sweepers such as Dnite. Other people have suggested Roar, but I prefer TWave so we can bring something else in to RK the paralized threat. Ferro isn't a huge problem because we can probably lure it with Zoro.
 
skidilidy said:
I think Zapdos is a great Pokemon, but it wants both Roost and a move to deal with set-up sweepers it can't kill. However, there's a simple solution to that.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe (copied from the other suggestions)
Modest Nature
- Discharge / Volt Switch
- HP Flying / Drill Peck
- Roost
- Roar / Thunder Wave

Everyone seems to think that Heat Wave is irreplaceable. Our STAB still hits Scizor hard, and it's not like Scizor can do anything back to Zapdos, so we can just wear it down. STAB Flying and Roost have been explained. The last slot is for set-up sweepers such as Dnite. Other people have suggested Roar, but I prefer TWave so we can bring something else in to RK the paralized threat. Ferro isn't a huge problem because we can probably lure it with Zoro.
Click to expand...

You have a good point with Heat Wave, but I have a problem with Thunder Wave; too many set-up Pokemon run Lum Berry these days for that to be reliable. If a Lum D-nit comes in and sets up a dragon dance as Zapdos uses Thunder Wave, then Zapdos (and the rest of our team) is fucked. It's too high risk when it takes so little for such a Pokemon to sweep the hell out of our team.

Some things I'd like to point out about our team and what we're going to need on it. While I agree that we need to concentrate on countering Scizor so we don't get demolished by it, we can't forget other roles we'll be needing later on when picking our counter now. Things we will NEED:

1. A hazard setter: Obviously, High Offense NEEDS hazards. I can't count how many calculations for KOs on this thread we've made that at least require Stealth Rock to work out in our favor. Depending on how suicidal we go with our hazard setter, we need to remember that we might not have 3 more Pokemon to check things with after this; we might only have 2. So, don't over specialize now or we could end up paying for it.

2. MORE CHECKS! Especially for stat boosters.: We shouldn't try to counter absolutely everything with this next pick. Remember, while we might only have 2 more Pokemon after this pick, we will have at least two more Pokemon. Don't pick a Pokemon that counters a tonne of shit but hurts the momemtum of our team, or something similar just because you feel the need to check everything right now.

Now for things we're likely to want:

1. An offensive Rapid Spinner: Illusion works a lot better when you can keep hazards off the field, and hazards in general are just a nice thing to get rid of. This being a high offense team, our spinner also can't afford to be set-up bait. So yeah, remember that we might want this when picking your checks. Starmie is the most likely choice, so if you can remember that when picking stuff it'll help.

2. Screen Support: While not strictly necessary, we already have two frail attackers (including one that sets up) that would really appreciate screens. In the interest of saving team slots we'd probably combine this with our hazard setter, but this is worth remembering when picking our teammates.

3. Back up Wallbreaker: Let's face it; Illusion isn't always going to pan out, and Haxorus won't always get its sweep. As such, something in the wings that can also dent walls and the like could be useful as a plan B for when plan A fails. This is Pokemon after all; things rarely go exactly to plan.

And that's it for now. OH also, I noticed that Katakiri was using Mold Breaker on his Haxorus in those replays, and he quite clearly stated he was successful with his team. As such, I think it's worth remembering we don't necessarily HAVE to run Rivalry on our Haxorus; the simply fact that Haxorus sometimes DOES run Rivalry means that Zoroark can come in disguised as it, whether it has Mold Breaker or not, and the opponent won't know whether it's Haxorus or not. The bad new with this means that Haxorus can't pretend to be Zorark in order to get a free boost, but them's the breaks. Remember that PO no longer automatically assigns Pokemon with two genders to be Male, so Rivalry is not as good as it used to be. Indeed, Rivalry could well stop a sweep short higher up where more people are careful to make their walls Female.

As for the Pokemon I'm liking right now, Gyarados stands out tall as a solid Scizor counter and a terrifying threat in it's own right. Gyarados is always a favorite of mine for it's ability to both sweep and check a large number of threats at the same time (it gives most Volcarona massive trouble too for example). We'll need something for Rotom-W though, as unless it's weakened Gyarados is liable to fall to it and Zororark and Haxorus aren't really guaranteed to get it.
 
I am suprised no one has nominated Rotom-W yet. To busy to do it now, but watch this space because I Have an assignment to write, then will expand on my nomination for Rotom-W
 
More often than not, I'm disguising Zoroark as Haxorus so aside from the few matches that I disguise her as Gyarados against Rain, Mold Breaker just seems more worth it. I tried Rivalry to maybe get some people to think Haxorus was Zoroark, but when people see the huge threat that is Haxorus, they tend to want to deal with it as fast as possible, not even thinking of the possibility of it being Zoroark so any reverse-Illusion shenanigans I tried never seemed to work at all.

There's also the matter of Pokeball Tracking which utterly ruins Zoroark on PO. (She's great on actual wifi though since Pokeball Tracking is a PO-exclusive part of the metagame.) So as I send out my 6th Slot Haxorus early, as soon as you reveal the last slot on your team or use an attack with Zoroark, Zoroark's Illusion is done for the rest of the match as your opponent can just check the Pokemon in that last slot & instantly know exactly which Pokemon is Zoroark.

I've talked with Coyote about it in the past, but to no avail. It's just really off-putting that a Pokemon becomes far less useful because of the simulator itself which is trying to replicate the actual game.

I'd like to have a hidden "Zoroark Clause" that locks the opponent's view of your Pokeballs into place when Zoroark is present no matter what the actual locations of the Pokemon are.
Meh.



But anyway, I'm still messing around with teammates. I'm definitely liking Gyarados even more than I did before. I keep trying Zapdos every so often as I do really like using Zapdos and like I said way early in the thread, I almost nominated it for our CCAT before Zoroark, but Intimidate saves me constantly as I can bring opposing Haxorus or Salamence back down to Earth should they get a boost, just like in this replay below.

Here's a quick replay. Definitely one of the most fun matches I've had today: http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Mailman-vs-Katakiri--2012-04-26-private1890051244

I pretty much removed my VoltTurn issues when I replaced Toxicroak with Offensive Scout Rotom-C so Gyarados can go on a rampage without worrying about Scarf Rotom-W (Non-Scarf versions get smashed by +1 Double Edge anyway.)

Aside from Focus Blast missing every time I get behind a Sub, Zoroark is really doing work. Once he gets that Sub up, my opponent has to switch-out constantly to avoid having Pokemon eat a STAB Dark Pulse or a SE Focus Blast/Flamethrower, which makes me think running Spikes might not be a bad idea (There's not a lot of room for a Spikes user though...at least on the team I'm testing with.) Although. Dragonite has no problem with setting up on Zoroark should it have Roost, which makes me want to switch to HP Ice since, I rarely use Flamethrower against anything I can't already 2HKO with Focus Blast. Just something to consider I guess.


But yeah, I'm having a ball with Zoroark & Haxorus. I was really against Haxorus at first, but you guys proved me wrong on that one as it works perfectly for getting Zoroark a free Sub.


Oh yeah, I should probably at least give a version of the team for people that wanna test-out Gyarados. So here ya go:
Gliscor (M) @ Flying Gem
Trait: Sand Veil
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Acrobatics


Gyarados (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge


Draxia (Haxorus) (F) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake


Adorabolt (Rotom-C) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 28 HP / 252 SAtk / 228 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Leaf Storm
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Wave
- Hidden Power [Fire]


Zoroark (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Illusion
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
- Substitute


Metagross @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Trick
Gyara's female just because our CCAT Haxorus reminded me that Rivalry is a legitimate thing. Gliscor is male because of the same reason. Gender coverage I guess.
 
alexwolf said:
To the guys suggesting LO on Zapdos. It is a bad idea because after you take 2 Hurricanes from Tornadus and SR damage, you are going to die from LO damage. So i am going to nominate this set(if Woodchuck wants, this set is his, as he gave the idea, so he just has to say it):

Zapdos@ Expert Belt
Modest Nature
EVs: 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power Flying
- Roost

Expert Belt gives to Zapdos an excellent power boost, without jeopardizing it's bulk. With EB, Volt Switch ohkos Tornadus and Heat Wave has a 81.25% chance to ohko Scizor after SR IN RAIN, so all our bug problems should be solved. HP Flying is an unconditional ohko on unboosted Virizion and does 85.8 - 102.16% at +1.
Volt Switch is way better than Discharge on such a team, for obvious reasons, and for some other, less obvious such as breaking Dnites MS, while we go to our answer (a revenge killer most probably such as Mienshao or Terrakion), and since Zapdos is slower, our revenge killer will come in unscathed.
Also with EB, offensive Volcarona still can't set-up on us, since HP Flying does 51.44 - 62.37% at +1, OHKO after SR (and bulkyRona sets up on us even with Drill Peck).
Click to expand...

I'm withdrawing my ridiculously edited nomination of Zapdos that ended up being some random amalgamation of discussion points; instead, I'm supporting this one. I'd planned to post a "final submission" post like this, but I don't mind that alexwolf got there before me. I pretty much agree with everything alexwolf has stated here and I'm glad he's laid out clearly what benefits he/I think that the team would receive from Zapdos. Besides, alexwolf deserves at least as much credit as I do (joint nomination? :P); he came up with the EVs and made Zapdos actually have some offensive presence to better fit in on an offensive team.

RE: Those who would ditch Roost for any other move: Zapdos as a bulky SR-weak attacker with Volt Switch pretty much needs Roost in order to stay effective throughout the match. It needs to be able to stay healthy to come in on Scizor U-turns and Tornadus Hurricanes repeatedly with Stealth Rock up as, even with a spinner, it's going to be difficult to consistently keep SR off the field. Also, Volt Switch pretty much mitigates the issue of Pokemon setting up on Zapdos as we can easily Volt Switch out to something that can threaten the opponent's switch-in. Volt Switch, in fact, is one of the main things Zapdos has over Gyarados: maintaining momentum rather than giving stuff like Ferrothorn free setup turns.
My Virizion nomination still stands, though I do like Zapdos quite a bit better at this point.
 
skidilidy said:
I think Zapdos is a great Pokemon, but it wants both Roost and a move to deal with set-up sweepers it can't kill. However, there's a simple solution to that.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe (copied from the other suggestions)
Modest Nature
- Discharge / Volt Switch
- HP Flying / Drill Peck
- Roost
- Roar / Thunder Wave

Everyone seems to think that Heat Wave is irreplaceable. Our STAB still hits Scizor hard, and it's not like Scizor can do anything back to Zapdos, so we can just wear it down. STAB Flying and Roost have been explained. The last slot is for set-up sweepers such as Dnite. Other people have suggested Roar, but I prefer TWave so we can bring something else in to RK the paralized threat. Ferro isn't a huge problem because we can probably lure it with Zoro.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately Heat Wave really IS irreplaceable. OHKOing Ferrothorn, without giving him any chance to set-up, as well as being able to 2hko SpDefensive Jirachi with hazards, and OHKO Scizor unconditionally, Forretress unconditionally, Magnezone, Lucario unconditionally, Mamoswine unocnditionally, Metagross and Abmoasnow unconditionally, are simply too good to pass up.
Without Heat Wave, SD Lucario sets up all over us for example as Volt-Switch/HP Flying does 50.35 - 59.57%, which means that he will have 4 hits to wreck us with at +2, which most of the times will be gg, lategame. Ferrothorn would still be a problem, even more in rain, where Flamethrower from Zoroark can only 2hko, so after the first hit, the opponent will definitely switch out. Zapdos's Heat Wave can easily 2hko Ferro even in rain, and can also 2hko bulky SD Scizor in rain, which could otherwise sweep us. Also without Heat Wave, our best way of dealing damage to Mamoswine, would be with HP Flying which does ~47%, not exactly ideal, and even then, spamming HP Flying is not the best choice. Also 2HKOing SpDefensive Jirachi is irreplaceable imo, since it could potentially absorb an Outrage from Haxorus, and paralyze it if Lum Berry has been consumed, or kill it with Iron Head.

Finally non of the moves in the last slot are really good, imo, since many set-up sweepers that can set-up on Zapdos carry Lum Berry (Haxorus, Dragonite), some carry Substitute (Terrakion, SubCM Jirachi, and Dragonite), and some are simply immune to it (Landorus, AcroBat Gliscor and SD Poison Heal Gliscor), so T-Wave is not that useful and Roar simply doesn't fit well in offensive teams, since if you Roar out the wrong mon, your momentum is completely lost.

Volt-Switch is enough to help us preserve momentum, and prevent Zapdos from being set-up bait, since if the opponent choses to set-up while Zapdos uses Volt Switch, then we will get our revenge killer in for free ready to force them out. This is why i think that Terrakion works very well with Zapdos, as he can revenge kill most threats that can set-up on Zapdos such as QD Volcarona, any DDNite, DD Mence, DD Haxorus, and SD Terrakion.

@Woodchuck

I am all for making this a joint nomination :D
 
Thank you everyone for the large amount of nominations. Its really great to see and im glad that we have so many quality users submitting outstanding nominations. Well Done!

Stage 4 Ballot (Pick One)

Please take a look through the ballot list. If I missed something, let me know asap and ill get it back up there. There were a lot of Zapdos nominations flying around so most of the similar ones I put together, if you have a problem with this, let me know and ill edit it.

Finally if I put your submission up as a dual nomination, that you didn't want, or I split up your nominations and you wanted them to be a dual nomination, please, let me know. There were a few posts where I was unsure if it was a dual nominations or just multiple pokemon being nominated.

Voting will last for as long as there is interest in voting. I will consider updating in 72 hours but this could be longer depending on the voting numbers.

Start Voting
 
Gyarados Dragon Dance (Katakiri)

This set not only seems good as a team member in theory, it's been shown to work in practice in his logs. I also love the fact that he runs Double Edge on it to deal with Rotom-W, the usual bane of Gyarados. Makes it a great lure for that damn thing, which can be incredibly annoying to take down otherwise due to its great typing, Volt-Switch and STABs that are difficult to switch into. Also, Scizor counter! What more could you want?

Don't think I've given up on Starmie yet though, I still think we could VERY much use it on this team. Or Mamo, just because Mamo is a total boss.
 
Gyarados (Dragon Dance)

To me this is just the nomination which we know will work solidly. Also, most teams only carry one or two checks to it which makes it work great with Zoro. Good synergy etc etc.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top