Gen 1 OU for a reason.

[Borat]

Starmie is a better special sweeper than Alakazam on almost all fronts. Higher special is negligible when you factor Starmie's far superior coverage, and as far as hitting things for neutral damage goes, Hydro Pump's 180 base power to Psychic's almost pitiful, 135. You're being blatantly ignorant if you're calling Alakazam a better sweeper than Starmie (good thing you don't though). When you factor in the fact that Psychic will probably be hitting anything not called Gengar for either neutral or 1/2 damage, it goes without saying that Starmie is far superior.

As far as walling goes, Chansey is better, no questions asked. Heck, I'm pretty sure Chansey is probably right there with Alakazam walling STABed Psychics.

If you assume Eggy, Snorlax, Tauros, and Alakazam are all reasonably damage and/or paralyzed, then certainly, Persian will win. Are you saying Alakazam has a chance to sweep if Eggy/Starmie/Zapdos/Alakazam/Chansey/Slowbro/whatever ISN'T under the same conditions? And quit putting words in my mouth, I excluded Gengar from the list. That's like me saying LOL UR ARGUMENT LOOK BETTER IF U DUN MAKE WILD CLAIMS SUCH AS THAT ALAKAZAM HAS 900 HP.

Yeah, all of those need 1-2 Pokemon dead to wreck havoc (Tauros, not so much Egg but Cloyster/Articuno). Alakazam needs more than half the OU pool dead/low.

 

[SubSmokeX]

I aint saying Alakazam is as good of a special wall, I'm saying it's as important on a team as Chansey because it's a great special wall and it's alot better on offense than Chansey. It has the highest special besides Mewtwo and one of the highest speeds. You need an Alakazam counter on your team the same as you need a Chansey counter.

Also don't forget how good of a lead Alakazam is.

 

[waterwizard]

Starmie is a better special sweeper than Alakazam on almost all fronts. Higher special is negligible when you factor Starmie's far superior coverage, and as far as hitting things for neutral damage goes, Hydro Pump's 180 base power to Psychic's almost pitiful, 135. You're being blatantly ignorant if you're calling Alakazam a better sweeper than Starmie (good thing you don't though). When you factor in the fact that Psychic will probably be hitting anything not called Gengar for either neutral or 1/2 damage, it goes without saying that Starmie is far superior.

As far as walling goes, Chansey is better, no questions asked. Heck, I'm pretty sure Chansey is probably right there with Alakazam walling STABed Psychics.

If you assume Eggy, Snorlax, Tauros, and Alakazam are all reasonably damage and/or paralyzed, then certainly, Persian will win. Are you saying Alakazam has a chance to sweep if Eggy/Starmie/Zapdos/Alakazam/Chansey/Slowbro/whatever ISN'T under the same conditions? And quit putting words in my mouth, I excluded Gengar from the list. That's like me saying LOL UR ARGUMENT LOOK BETTER IF U DUN MAKE WILD CLAIMS SUCH AS THAT ALAKAZAM HAS 900 HP.

Yeah, all of those need 1-2 Pokemon dead to wreck havoc (Tauros, not so much Egg but Cloyster/Articuno). Alakazam needs more than half the OU pool dead/low.

more than half the OU pool? A standard team might have Eggy, Starmie, and Chansey all on it. That's the most on any competitive team. Eggy and Chansey can be taken out mid-game. Starmie does present a problem late game, as a stall war will likely occur, usually ending with a Starmie victory. But, like you stated above, I never said Alakazam was a better sweeper than Starmie.

I aint saying Alakazam is as good of a special wall, I'm saying it's as important on a team as Chansey because it's a great special wall and it's alot better on offense than Chansey. It has the highest special besides Mewtwo and one of the highest speeds. You need an Alakazam counter on your team the same as you need a Chansey counter.

Also don't forget how good of a lead Alakazam is.

Alakazam is not nearly important as Chansey. Chansey is both a Chansey counter and an Alakazam counter. Alakazam should only be used as an anti-lead or a sweeper. Chansey does a far better job as a mid-game special wall.

 

[SubSmokeX]

Eh I have Alakazam and Starmie on my team, they work fine without Chansey.

Chansey as a Chansey counter? All it can do is hope for a lucky freeze or stall each other out. Alakazam can stall Chansey too but no chance to freeze.

Borat you say Hydro Pump has higher power but you forget it only has 80 accuracy and no chance to lower special. Alakazam can hurt Chansey after some special falls and critical hits. Starmie can only hope for a freeze.

 

[Borat]

But, like you stated above, I never said Alakazam was a better sweeper than Starmie.

Then why are you arguing? I never said Alakazam was garbage (not in this thread/generation at least), but I merely said he's an inferior Chansey/Starmie on all accounts.

 

[Crystal_]

A Chansey is forced to switch out against Alakazam or it will be stalled out with just reflect and recover. And only 1 turn is what Zam needs to get a reflect in. Alakazam can still be used as the freeze absorber to allow your own Chansey to be superior to your oponent's.

However, if you plan to sweep with Zam, you will need all pokes but one that can take a Psychic elemininated. I mean, you can for example Psychic a Chansey until he has to switch due to spc fells, and use this switch to hurt the incoming Tauros/Golem/Whatever. But since Chansey totally stops Starmie anyway I do think that ZAm is better most of the times.

To sum up, Zam can be in advantage or disadvantage against Chansey depending on the situation (usually the paralyzed one is which has the advantage, but Alakazam may not want to be paralyzed...). Both Pokes used togheter totally stops any special sweeper by just switching (for stalling) and recovering.

Yeah, think abaut a Zam+Chansey vs Zam+Chansey battle end. The player who start moving will lose due to getting runned out of PP if the other player just constantly switches (and use few recovers if needed). So both players switch out and switch out and... the battle won't never end! lol

 

[Borat]

I don't think you understand.

It's not Chansey vs Zam in the sense of... Chansey vs Zam, but rather the usefulness of either. If you think Zam is better most of the time, you're wrong.

Alakazam being used as a "freeze absorber" shows its inferiority. Case in point.

 

[Crystal_]

I was not saying that Alakazam is better than Chansey. I was saying that Alakazam is better than Starmie, because Starmie won't do anything to Chansey, while zam can stall it or at least absorb the freeze of a paralyzed one.

 

[Borat]

Wrong. Starmie only loses to Alakazam in one specific matchup: Thunderbolt Chansey. And even then, it's a stretch, because Alakazam doesn't exactly beat Chansey either. That alone does that override the plethora of advantages Starmie has over Alakazam otherwise.

 

[Crystal_]

What are those advantages?

 

[Borat]

What do you mean "what are you those advantages"?

Starmie is a far better sweeper, physical wall, similar special walling capabilities (only pales in comparison against tbolts), far better "status spreader" because of coverage, and just better in general. Starmie just does everything Alakazam does better.

Reflect Zam? Reflect Starmie walls and actually kills stuff.

Chansey bait? Starmie's FAR better at it. Exeggutor and stuff are viable switch-ins to Alakazam.

Thunderbolt Chansey matchup? Starmie learns Psychic too, and Light Screen, after which tbolt becomes a 5HKO.

 

[SubSmokeX]

Yo someone spray the hose on Borat and Chansey already :D I see you're still as cocky and dick headed as always huh?

Imo Alakazam is easily as good as Chansey. Chansey can only take hits a little better than Alakazam. Both can take loads of special hits and heal the damage off. The only way you're gonna beat either of em with special hits is with special falls from psychic or freezing them. And they both go down quick to physical hits. Tauros KOs both with body slam and hyper beam almost every time and Zapdos 3 hit KOs both with drill peck most of the time. So Chansey's higher hp doesn't make that big a difference.

Alakazam is a better attacker. Chansey has better type coverage but Zam does almost as much with a neutral hit as Chansey does with a super effective hit. And Zam KOs the normal types and Gengar better.

So what's Chansey got over Zam? It beats Starmie better. Not like Starmie is gonna beat Zam most of the time anyways. It's a little better against Exeggutor but Exeggutor can just explode on it. Same with Golem. It can get an ice beam freeze but I'm not gonna base my game around that.

Get over your Chansey obsession bro. It's really not as important as you make it out to be and you can get by without it. I don't use Chansey or Exeggutor and I do just fine.

 

[Crystal_]

similar special walling capabilities (only pales in comparison against tbolts)

The only thing that doesn't have Tbolt is Zam who will beat it.

far better "status spreader" because of coverage

If you like paralyzing Chansey then you are right lol. At least Zam can force the Chansey switch after spc fells and at least paralyze the predicted switch out (or if Golem/Rhydon just go with Psychic).

Reflect Zam? Reflect Starmie walls and actually kills stuff.

lol, nice useful Reflect in the Chansey switch. Yeah, I know it is the same as Alakazam, but Starmie needs type coverage to hurt pokes when Chansey is out, and with Reflect you are wating a moveslot. At least Zam beats 1on1 the thing Psychic isn't very effective.

Chansey bait? Starmie's FAR better at it

Chansey can just Tbolt Starmie instead of using the freeze.

Light Screen

One of the best options Starmie has to beat a non-paralyzed Starmie when is using with Blizzard. A paralyzed one can still be forced to switch out after some spc fells though, but here Chansey has more chances to get a T-bolt CH and anyway, Starmie will get paralyzed.

The advantages Starmie has over Zam are Tbolt against Slowbro and Blizzard against Eggy as well as being more effective aginst Golem/Rhydon. Just remember that a paralyzed Chansey will switch into Starmie when she wants to, without any problem. Here, Starmie is only useful if you can predict the Chansey switch and go with something like lax or rhydon, but in the current metagame Zam is more useful overall.

 

[Pirotechnix]

The utility of Zam/Chansey/Starmie all comes down to what role you intend to use it for on your team, so this argument of what is better will really get nowhere as everyone is trying to ascribe the same role to 3 different Pokemon who should be used in three separate capacities.. at least imo.

Alakazam is best used as a lead of the three, as it provides checks on every single other lead; it will absorb special attacks, it is fast enough to paralyze any realistic offensive lead threat without being KOed back in a non-luck situation, and it has the sort of survivability in a Psychic-heavy environment to afford taking a sleep or a paralysis and keep switching back in, using Seismic Toss for consistent damage if one is using such a set.

It is no reliable sweeper, but it doesn't need to be; other Psychics can only beat it one on one by implementing a physical move into their pool, and high CH rate + 30% special fall rate is not something that can be ignored in any "stall" consideration, especially when luck is such an important factor in RBY. Stall can only be broken by luck in the rock/paper/scissors of Zam v Zam/Starmie/Chansey, and Zam generally has the advantage in all of these situations given the likely scenario that both are paralyzed thanks purely to its ridiculous Special and Speed.

Chansey is the best wall of the three, bar none, and in a non-luck situation is better at absorbing/Countering physical blows than Alakazam; there's a reason people joke about losing the match when they paralyze a Chansey and not an Alakazam, and why Tauros/Snorlax will EQ check on a Chansey before they'll ever consider EQ checking on Zam. Boltbeam off high Special is also better type coverage than Alakazam, so more things have to exercise care switching in for fear of freeze/para/SE.

Starmie is the best "sweeper" of the three and should be used as such. Using it in a stall situation when it will generally not be carrying a STAB attack is really asking for trouble given RBY's nature. Most Chanseys are Bolting and Zam has Special falls/crits and Seismic Toss to work with on most modern set builds while Blizzard runs out of PP decently quickly.

tl;dr they're all good for certain things and bad at others use what you want based on your RBY playstyle!

 

[Borat]

Chansey takes special hits far better than Alakazam. Arguing otherwise is arguing on the grounds of moot. There's no case to be made there.

And I do just fine when I don't use Tauros. That proves...?

Only Zapdos, Starmie, and Chansey regularly have tbolt. An Alakazam does not beat Starmie. Certainly not in practical terms.

You'll end up with the short end of the stick more times than not in an Zam vs Chansey matchup. "Theoretically", you can just spc down Chansey a few times, predict the switch, voila new paralyzed. In reality, this rarely, if ever, happens.

Reflect Starmie > Reflect Zam.

That's not what baiting means. Starmie is the most reliable Pokemon at forcing your opponent to active Chansey, which a lot of times take advantage of. Alakazam sees more different switches, since it's not as dangerous.

Starmie gets the quicker KO on Zapdos. Quicker KO on Tauros/Snorlax with HP, which is an underrated move. Moreover, Starmie has FAR more leeway vs Tauros HB (bolt/beam from Chansey, Tackle from Pidgey etc, puts Zam in KO range). Doesn't get OHKOed by Dodrio/Snorlax.

The only "advantages" you can name are potential spc downs. Essentially, you basing the game on potential lucky turns? 30% spc down, attacking only 75% of the time, is very poor in terms of reliability. Not to mention, that 313 HP isn't giving you a lot of room for error for your predictions. With PP ups, you have an average of just under 5 spc downs. You don't start doing significant damage to Chansey until -2 or -3. Realistically, you can force a Chansey switch once, at most, twice, so your prediction better be top-notch. Too bad in a higher-level game, prediction is the same thing as guessing. You'll come up empty.

Replacing Alakazam with either Chansey/Starmie will always net better results than sticking to Zam. Meaning, Alakazam is only reasonable if you're already running both Chansey and Starmie. You haven't proven otherwise.

What metagame are you referring to?

 

[Longfellow]

If I understand the pro-Zam argument, it runs something like,

Zam is better than Chansey at sweeping
Zam is better than Starmie at walling

Therefore neither one makes Alakazam redundant and he's as valuable as either.

But how can Zam ever do both in one battle? To wall Special hits, Zam has to let himself be paralyzed, so he can't sweep. To sweep, Zam must hide until the end, so he can't wall.

What's the point? I guess Alakazam offers the choice between a wall and a sweeper, a choice you must make pretty early in each battle when you haven't even seen much of the opposing team. Seems too much of a finesse, really. Why not just use the Pokémon that's best for the job you need?

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, as I haven't played in ages and was never good to begin with. But I can't see how Alakazam could be seriously recommended over Chansey or Starmie.

 

[waterwizard]

I'm done playing devil's advocate for Alakazam. I hate him. I love Starmie. There, I said it.

 

[PK Gaming]

Is it odd that I agree with everything Borat states even though I've never even touched RBY?

I don't even see a *Chansey* fetish either. Chansey is clearly better. I mean take a look at it's fucking stats. A base 250 pokemon with 105 Special vs a pokemon with base 55 Hp and 135 special.

Sure it's faster, but as Borat has outlined your going to get your sweeper paralyzed at one point or another.
Borat isn't saying that Alakazam is terrible, he is stating that he is inferior to both Starmie and Chansey.

Just seems like people are disagreeing because they hate the pink blob and like their resident Houdini.

 

[Vineon]

I see no reason why you wouldn't want to use Blizzard instead of Fire Blast on Dragonite.

I'm done playing devil's advocate for Alakazam. I hate him. I love Starmie. There, I said it.

That's a good one, you used to try to sell it as the best possible RBY starter.

:o

What happened?

 

[waterwizard]

eh, I can't really remember exactly what I said about Alakazam. I've only used him in about 20 battles out of the billion that I've played. I have never used Alakazam as a lead, nor will I ever do such. When I advocated Alakazam, it was as an end-game sweeper. I always discouraged using him as a special wall (with his abysmal HP), and I said leading him results in a free Eggy/SingingChansey switch.

I have used Starmie for a year now, and I love her. I don't lead with her. I prefer to lead with a sleeper. I use Starmie as a late game sweeper, as she should be used.

I believe the reason I started playing devil's advocate for Alakazam was that someone (maybe Borat, maybe some silly DPPt player) said Alakazam isn't a sweeper and isn't a good pokemon in general (both of which are silly statements).

I will mention that Alakazam is being increasingly used to beat Chansey or force a switch to Exeggutor (which, if timed right, results in another paralyzed pokemon). Freeze wars are nearly extinct in the current metagame.

 

[SubSmokeX]

Chansey takes special hits far better than Alakazam. Arguing otherwise is arguing on the grounds of moot. There's no case to be made there.

I aint saying that's not true. I'm saying it doesn't matter since they almost never go down to special hits anyway. Alakazam just has to heal more often but they can both take special hits all day. It's physical attackers you gotta worry about and Alakazam has a better shot against them.

The only pokemon Chansey has a major advantage over Alakazam against is Starmie but Starmie still gets paralyzed and stalled out and you can sometimes beat it with seismic toss and some luck.

 

[420]

Alakazam's attack power is a huge reason to use it over chansey. If you send out chansey to wall special hits, you open doors for the likes of snorlax to come in for just under 20%, or even persian or tauros who are 4HKO'd. Snorlax and friends don't enjoy switching into an alakazam's psychic, which is a 2HKO a lot of the time if you factor in CH rate and special falls. Having powerful physical attackers switching in can completely screw your momentum, and force you to make tough predictions (or guesses). Essentially, relying totally on chansey to stop, say, starmie, can put you between a rock and a hard place, forcing you to make game-breaking decisions (do I switch to rhydon predicting his snorlax switch, or possibly tauros? But what if he keeps starmie in?)

That said, I would almost never use it over chansey, and instead would use it in conjuction with chansey, if anything. Also if you're worried about physical attackers switching in for free, you can just run reflect or counter.

 

[Longfellow]

Wouldn't Chansey's extra defenses play a role, though? If you get baited into a Chansey against Lax or Tauros, you probably have enough health to eat their Hyper Beam and at least paralyze them (not to mention if they think you have Counter they could be scared into using Earthquake). But Zam has to worry about being OHKO'd, not only being weaker physically, but having taken more Special chip damage.

 

[Crystal_]

I will separate them between special, physical and status advantages:


Special

Alakazam:
- (STAB) Psychic, which allows him to force a switch against special stuff like Chansey and Starmie (and another Alakazam). This becomes especially interesting when your opponent only has one thing that can "take" a Psychic (Chansey and psychic-types). For example if your opponent has Chansey/Tauros/Golem/Gengar, after few spc falls against Chansey, you will be able to hurt whatever it sends out (or paralyze Tauros).
- Speed: Although Zam is often a paralysis absorber because of special walling reason, remember thta his speed means that he will outspeed paralyzed stuff (like Chansey, Tauros, Starmie...)
- Seismic Toss: The move thta allows Zam to continue hitting stuff and is a great move to be used against paralyzed Starmie and Alakazam as a FP may often result a KO.

Chansey:
- HP:The most obvious thing, that allows her to take a lot of special hits and make Starmie an useless star against a paralyzed Chansey.
- Ice Beam: Go freeze! The only reason Chansey and Alakazam may want to get paralyzed, and the only way Chansey could kill a [non (only)]-paralyzed Alakazam, although Chansey can just stall by switching to a psychic-type when her special has decreased, until Alakazam's Psychic says "no more PP sorry =P".
- A super-effective Thunderbolt for waters, mainly Starmie, Slowbro and Lapras. Very important.


Physical

Alakazam:
- Speed: Outspeed stuff like Tauros is obviousy good, just watch out when you are paralyzed; Thunder Wave is the move you should be using here.
- Power: STAB + 90 base power + 368 Spc + nice CH rate + 30% spc falls means power and danger; poor Tauros that's going to take a big damage. More power than Chansey here.
- Reflect: While getting your Alakazam paralyzed and using Seismic Toss are good strategies por teams that need Alakazam to sponge special hits (teams that lack Chansey and/or doesn't have another psychic-type), Reflect is incredibly useful for teams that want Alakazam to sweep, and can become really useful when your opponent is down to a one "psychic-sponger". Speed is a plus Zam has over Chansey here, and he does not need, unlike Chansey, to use an important moveslot.

Chansey:
- High defensive capabilities
- An anoying Reflect
- Not much else really, but comparing a paralyzed Alakazam with a paralyzed Chansey, Chansey is better at Thunder Waving stuff like Tauros.
- Ice Beam, but Alakzam still 2HKOes Rhydon/Golem more often than not, and freezing a Tauros or Snorlax is very rare.

Status

Alakazam:
- Psychic means a switch after the special fall to, if you want, use Thunder Wave.
- High speed: To paralyze before

Chansey:
- Ice Beam freeze, to be used against non-paralyzed Alakazams or Chanseys. The only thing it can do to specialists besides stalling, but a very dangerous thing obviously.
- Thunder Wave to threaten Tauros/Snorlax/Persian. Just watch out for Chanseys(and even Alakazams) coming into the predicted TW and therefore becoming immune to yor freeze.

 

[Borat]

So we're talking paralyzed Zams right? Because having an unparalyzed zam through more than 4/6 the game is a ridiculous and unrealistic assumption. However, in the rare chance that it does happen, can we agree that Starmie would be better in the same position (really, all it needs is a dead Chansey)?

Sure Alakazam is pretty damn threatening when your prediction is 100%, opponent's Chansey, Starmie, and Exeggutor are all dead. So what?

You have to factor in two separate predictions in order to make the right move: the switch itself and what their switch will be. Furthermore, you factor in his FP chance. Suddenly, his looming 135 off 368 is no more than... a potential FP/twave on something that doesn't give a rat's ass. And you now have a physical threat to deal with, that is all the more dangerous than whatever Psychic/Chansey you had originally faced off with.

Then you factor in the fact that you had to get rid of your opponent's Starmie/Exeggutor/Alakazam in the first place to rid your opponent of these other possible switches. Go figure. Ultimately, his offensive capabilities from a paralyzed standpoint is no more dangerous than Chansey's.

You can't quantify these advantages. Alakazam is an on-paper Pokemon, just like Pgon2 was in GSC. It'll fail to do what you expect it to more times than not.

Go freeze! The only reason Chansey and Alakazam may want to get paralyzed

Honestly, this isn't true at all. Chansey wants to get paralyzed for that reason, but Alakazam? Players would LOVE to have their Alakazams frozen in place of their Chansey/Tauros/Starmie/whatever. This is the reason why the whole "Alakazam takes sleep better" argument comes from: because it's inferior.