Other OU Theorymon [Revamped]

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StairFall said:
My only problem with Electivire is that nothing has really changed in terms of how he plays. He has way more power now and no LO recoil, but he still runs the exact same moves and the exact same spread. Archeops is a much much better offensive change, because now the actual way he plays has changed. He can switch into SR as much as he wants, he doesn't care if he drops below half. He can use head smash as a last resort without its power being axed in half, and now he's capable of much more liberal U-turn use. Choice set potential just sky rocketed. His new ability makes him a potential check to breloom and M-venu, plus he's just really cool.
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True his role hasn't changed much if at all, but that wasn't entirely the point. The buff was to give him some actual bite and make his attacks not piss poor weak. He can run an actual scarf set if he so wished as he still packs some decent power with SF, and can be a brutal wall breaker (special, mixed, or physical, take your pick). It just was to make him not actually outclassed in his role as much as he has been by almost every other mon.
 
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ForumBeta said:
Archeops Life Orb
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Atk 252 Spd 4 SDef
-Head Smash/Stone Edge
-Earthquake
-U-Turn
-Roost

LO STAB Head Smash coming off 140 base attack. Nuff said
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Personally Archeops doesn't have the bulk to be using roost in any real capacity, any large offensive threats are either going to do major damage to him if he roosts or simply die to him if he outspeeds. I'd run a choice band set with both stone edge and Head smash, Head Smash taking advantage of no more defeatist so you can use it when you're on your last legs. One head smash is going to easily decimate you because of your low base hp.
 
Salemance said:
True his role hasn't changed much if at all, but that wasn't entirely the point. The buff was to give him some actual bite and make his attacks not piss poor weak. He can run an actual scarf set if he so wished as he still packs some decent power, can be a brutal wall breaker (special, mixed, or physical, take your pick). It just was to make him not actually outclassed in his role as much as he has been by almost every other mon.
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I actually wasn't so enthusiastic when I said yes to SF Electivire, but it's actually been growing on me, because a moveset with a scarf as the item of ThunderPunch - Ice Punch - Fire Punch - earthquake actually hits every S ranked Pokemon for super effective damage, breaks every wall (i hereby stand saying there shall be no more ferrothorns) bar mega venusaur, and hit every pokemon in the tier for neutral damage. This thing is pretty much the premier revenge killer, with a high speed stat, an enormous attack stat with SF, and a good move pool. Its like a better nidoking.

Mixed with Smog Frog EVs would work, although I may need to calc a bit a to find more optimal evs
 
Mysteria said:
This thing is pretty much the premier revenge killer
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A small but important note I feel is worth mentioning, you resist brave bird, allowing you to revenge kill or scare off Talonflame.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 162-192 (55.4 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
We got a strong start it seems, with great theorymons and some cool users in charge of this thread. Good luck guys, and i hope you manage to keep this thread alive and interesting for as long as possible!

As for the theorymons, the most interesting of them is definitely Jirachi, which would be a huge game changer. SubCM, Wish + CM, CM + 3 attack, and Wish + Toxic are all going to be amazing sets, as this typing is just godlike, and Jirachi has a very important tool to take advantgae of it that Mega Mawile and Klefki lack: reliable recovery. Of course Heatran will be a huge pain in the ass, as it prevents Jirachi from healing itself with Roar, but i imagine that +1 Hidden Power Ground will dent it pretty nicely, so it's not that Jirachi will be helpless against it, and Moonblast / Psyshock / Hidden Power Ground is excellent coverage anyway. Also, with that amazing typing and great bulk, here are the additional Pokemon Jirachi will be able to deal with:

Bisharp, regular Tyranitar, Tornadus-T (no more Knock Off fucking it up), Gengar, Mandibuzz, Mega Alakazam, Mega Absol, Sableye, and Weavile

As we can see, there is quite a big number of stallbreakers in this list, which means that the new and improved Jirachi will be a great addition on stall teams.
 
Mysteria said:
I actually wasn't so enthusiastic when I said yes to SF Electivire, but it's actually been growing on me, because a moveset with a scarf as the item of ThunderPunch - Ice Punch - Fire Punch - earthquake actually hits every S ranked Pokemon for super effective damage, breaks every wall (i hereby stand saying there shall be no more ferrothorns) bar mega venusaur, and hit every pokemon in the tier for neutral damage. This thing is pretty much the premier revenge killer, with a high speed stat, an enormous attack stat with SF, and a good move pool. Its like a better nidoking.

Mixed with Smog Frog EVs would work, although I may need to calc a bit a to find more optimal evs
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He just has slightly less coverage in the forms of elemental beams but pretty much. He does a damn good job and not much if anything will be messing with him as even Mega Venu can be beaten if you wish to run Psychic. The only flaw one can find with him is his below average bulk for a wall breaker, speed, and him having to pick and choose which walls he wishes to break but I believe its a small price in the end for a mon that is capable of covering such a myriad of threats.
 
StairFall said:
A small but important note I feel is worth mentioning, you resist brave bird, allowing you to revenge kill or scare off Talonflame.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 162-192 (55.4 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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It's 2HKOed by Brave Bird, so it can't switch into it, but it does make for a decent check, as it can easily force it out
 
Sheer force Electivire


It's a good buff to electivire, it just is so boring, and still doesn't fix it's speed. It breaks through so many different walls very effectively with its vast SE coverage. Good, just not my favorite.


Recover Seismitoad


Seismitoads main niche was a swift swim sweeper, and I honestly don't think recover helps that at all, and, as said above, it becomes more like gastrodon, which doesn't have any promise in OU at all.


Steel/Fairy Jirachi


While Fairy typing is a defensive set for Jirachi, it actually provides problems for the little pixie as well as fixing problems, like the weakness to knock off. Because Moonblast is Jirachi's only Fairy move, a special move, and Jirachi's best steel move is physical, it makes it harder to run more offensive sets, because you have to run mixed to take full advantage of both STABs. Still a great defensive typing.


Vital Spirit Archeops


Archeops? Without defeatist? WHAT!?!?!?!?! 140 base attack and 110 base speed with edge-quake coveage and spammable flying STAB, this is easily the most powerful theorymon on this slate, if not one of the most potent sweepers in the OU theorymon metagame. This thing will grind through teams like a hot knife through butter if they are unprepared. It can run band or LO for a super huge punch, or run an itemless set to take advantage of acrobatics, designed for late game cleaning rather than bulldozing. My vote is going on this guy for sure.




Overall, awesome slate!
 
Y'all are forgetting that Electivire can run effective special sets to blast through everything, with Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Psychic, Flamethrower, and Signal Beam as special coverage. With a simple set of Thunderbolt / Focus Blast / Flamethrower / Hidden Power [Ice] or Cross Chop it can actually put in some decent work, for example Cross Chop enables it to blast through Chansey while Thunderbolt can put dents in many Pokemon. The thing about Sheer Force Electivire is that it's not supposed to be walking over everything, it's supposed to be used with Spikes support to wear the opponent down to the point where Electivire can clean up with its coverage late-game.
 
Sheer Force Electivire
Pretty cool idea but the problem I have with this is that it works exactly like Electivire does now, has good coverage but is let down by its speed. Now i guess its a bit more powerful so i suppose a choice scarf could be interesting.


Recover SeismitoadTo be honest I dont really like this one. As a defensive pokemon it's still mostly outclassed by Gastrodon and Quagsire. I guess it could be interesting with Swift Swim + Recover but thats about it. Mega Swampert's probably gonna outclass it when it's released too lol.


Steel/Fairy Jirachi
I think this one would have by far the biggest impact on the metagame. It's psychic typing is whats really letting it down this gen and by replacing the (arguably) worst defensive typing with the (arguably) best on something with the solid stats and movepool that Jirachi has is almost guaranteed to create a top tier threat. There are so many offensive, defensive, and support sets it could function as that I cant even start.


Vital Spirit ArcheopsThis is my favorite suggestion and is great flavor wise as I can see Archeops as some crazy ADHD beast. This is probably my favorite because Id like to see how non-Defeatist Archeops fares against the metagame. A lot of people already listed some potential sets but the rock polish sweeper with head smash and the life orb mixed attacker really jump out at me.
 
They would be all interesting mons I guess. With Jirachi being the most interesting I guess, Calm Mind sets would be nice, and as well some support set. Anyway I guess that alexwolf already said pretty everything relevant.

Electivire would get a nice buff as well, but I would be outclasses by Thundurus I guess, being faster, having priority Thunder Wave to prevent things to sweep and being overall a better mon. It would probaby be good against stall and balanced teams because of the low speed it has, its coverage in particular could be good to break stalls, even if I can see some usage for a Choice Scarf set to revenge-kill things.

Recover Seismitoad its just outclassed by Gastrodon and Quagsire (mostly by the latter because of Unaware) as many pointed up, it's only really niche it's to being able to run a Recover + Swift Swim set in a Rain Team which can be a cool support move alongside with Stealth Rock but TBH I'd still prefer Ferrothorn to that role because of the better resistances it has, even if it hasn't Swift Swim that doesn't really matter. Also it's going to be outclasses by Mega Swampert soon because it's probably gonna to be much more good overall, especially regarding offensive statistics.

Vital Spirit Archeops could act like a cool sweeper I guess and as well as a good revenge-kill and wall-breaker sometimes. Head Smash is an huge move, and now it can run more offensive sets like a Rock Polish one. It remains extremely frail though, and weak to the most common priority moves so it isn't going to be extremely good I guess.

In general, I think that the most influential mon would be Jirachi because of the options it should run with a fantastic typing, both offensive and of support ones while the other mons would be much usage and have more reasons to be used as well, but they wouldn't find much usage because of lot of mons outclasses them anyway.

Nice thread anyways, keep it up!
 
So far id just like to point out that we seemed to have gotten the same holes filled as with the slates of the previous thread in wat the nominations are.

The okay, its there, and? in Recover Seismitoad. Not incredibly impacting but its there and can be useful. The boost to what it already does and make it do so much better in Electivire as no one is arguing that it will drastically change the mon outside of making him a much better wall breaker and scarfer. Then finally ya got the major beneficiaries that it could be ridiculous in Steel/Fairy Jirachi and Vital Spirit Archeops by how much these two changes drastically increase their viability like past Theorymons have (Do I even need to bring back up the tough Claws Drapion?).

I just always find it funny how you can spot these in any of the given slates at times. Im just curious at this point how much of a spot the candidates we got here would be competing for if selected. Seismitoad has it worst as it has to compete with the swift Swimming powerhouses of Kabutops and Kingdra for a spot on the team (as its bad enough stacking those weaknesses on the team as is) and may be the most overlooked of our submissions just cause he would be fighting for so much with so little. E-Vire has a similar issue just due to the fact he is in a similar boat to another famed wall breaker Mega Medicham in that he must pick and choose what walls him but has the added benefit of much more versatility and ability to hold items (yet is that still enough to give him an edge of the wallbreakers that dominate today's metagame? Time will tell with how the vote ends) and even as the guy who submitted it, I just wonder if E-Vire can hope to capitalize off its new found strength if selected to properly give him a solid chance in todays metagame.

Archeops I've always enjoyed somewhat, but with it sitting at such a coveted speed tier, great offensive stats, it seems silly to me with all he could do almost as bad as I think as Steel/Fairy Jirachi. The versatility of the two is a little ridiculous and would be scary as hell to fight at times and Jirachi would have little if any competition for a team spot since there are very few reliable steel types in the tier that feel comfortable taking hits repeatedly. Only solace I have is that he is still fairly walled by most if not all Steels still in STABs alone. As I said, I sorta despise these two in all the opportunities the new additions open up for em but it would genuinely make me far more interested in a metagame that I have seemed to think of as nothing more than dull as hell for a good while now (something I think that would be greatly appreciated).

Anyway, that's more of my thoughts. just felt like typing and all a little before doing more work. Carry on yall.
 
I don't play OU much, but I will say that Sheer Force Electivire is my favorite change. It gives it an opportunity to use all of its excellent coverage more effectively, along with the capacity to hold a Life Orb without taking much, if any, recoil. Steel/Fairy Jirachi and Vital Spirit Archeops are a bit too drastic, I believe.
 
Thank god this is finally back, I loved it back in the day, but I never had a account.

Recover on seismitoad seems pretty bleh tbh, it's creeping a little too close to gastrodon tbh, might be p. cool with SR and stuff.

Sheer force electivire seems too genius to be true, it's movepool is huge for a mixed attacker, and most of his moves abuses sheer force.

archeops = insane. archeops is fast as fuck, and hits like a truck latched to a train, while having a pretty neat support movepool. would be a superb threat in every regard.

Jirachi: The most versetile mon ever, now has an amazing typing, and a STAB moonblast that neuters special attacker, GG BRB Where's the nearest bridge?
 
So, giving an update on what I've been thinking:

Sheer Force Electivire appreciates the complete disregard for recoil, being immune to LO and no longer needing Wild Charge. And it certainly enjoys the better damage output on everything. The issue for me is that it still sits at a poor speed tier, sitting at 95, the same place as another sheer force mon that just proves it's not enough.

Seismitoad + Recover is still outclassed by other swift swimmers and isn't bulky enough to run a straight tank set.

Vital Spirit Archeops is a garenteed success, almost dangerously so. Good thing though is that its STABs aren't too reliable. It still will be a boss.

Steel/Fairy Jirachi This change is a god send on defense, but does very little offensively. Anything's better than psychic, but its best move is still iron head, and splitting to mixed isn't ideal. It'll be an even better support mon for sure, not being weak to dark and such, but this doesn't interest me too much.

My vote's probably archeops, but we'll see. I'm still experimenting with Electivire and Jirachi, and I'm interested in hearing people defend them, but Archoeps is surefire.
 
Kairyu_Gen1 said:
So, giving an update on what I've been thinking:

Sheer Force Electivire appreciates the complete disregard for recoil, being immune to LO and no longer needing Wild Charge. And it certainly enjoys the better damage output on everything. The issue for me is that it still sits at a poor speed tier, sitting at 95, the same place as another sheer force mon that just proves it's not enough.

Seismitoad + Recover is still outclassed by other swift swimmers and isn't bulky enough to run a straight tank set.

Vital Spirit Archeops is a garenteed success, almost dangerously so. Good thing though is that its STABs aren't too reliable. It still will be a boss.

Steel/Fairy Jirachi This change is a god send on defense, but does very little offensively. Anything's better than psychic, but its best move is still iron head, and splitting to mixed isn't ideal. It'll be an even better support mon for sure, not being weak to dark and such, but this doesn't interest me too much.

My vote's probably archeops, but we'll see. I'm still experimenting with Electivire and Jirachi, and I'm interested in hearing people defend them, but Archoeps is surefire.
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If you are referring to Darmanitan on that, id like to point out that it also suffers a lot from multitude of factors (SR damage, suicidal, scarf reliable (which Electivire can be easily which I hope will be one of his more popular sets as well)) and of those, E-Vire suffers from speed as well, but that's their main similarity. E-vire can boast better overall coverage (nothing is gonna touch the sheer power of Darm's F-Blitz truthfully) and the ability to be more than a one trick pony in going mixed, fully special or fully physical (as Nidoking has shown us in UU, it is more than capable of being one of the premier special wall breakers with just a base 85 Sp Attack).
 
Salemance said:
If you are referring to Darmanitan on that, id like to point out that it also suffers a lot from multitude of factors (SR damage, suicidal, scarf reliable (which Electivire can be easily which I hope will be one of his more popular sets as well)) and of those, E-Vire suffers from speed as well, but that's their main similarity. E-vire can boast better overall coverage (nothing is gonna touch the sheer power of Darm's F-Blitz truthfully) and the ability to be more than a one trick pony in going mixed, fully special or fully physical (as Nidoking has shown us in UU, it is more than capable of being one of the premier special wall breakers with just a base 85 Sp Attack).
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I suppose there's always Kyurem, but that begs the question of what exactly would make me want to use Electivire. There's a few obvious things like the crazy coverage, but it's at the cost of that overpowered dragon STAB. I'm actually interested to hear what people think about this, so I'm going to stop there and let others fill in the rest.
 
Sheer Force Electivire: I'm a little mixed on this one. On one hand, Sheer Force boosts the elemental punches, Thunderbolt, and Flamethrower, giving him some good versatility and power. On the other hand, he faces stiff competition with Landorus, who has stronger offensive options to choose from, is faster, and has much better bulk. Electivire also lacks a stat boosting move, unlike Landorus, who has Calm Mind. I'm not really feeling this one.

Seismitoed with Recover: I don't know why I'd ever use this over Quagsire.

Steel / Fairy Jirachi: This could be good. With a Dark resistance, Jirachi can take on the likes of Bisharp, Tyranitar, and Weavile with relative ease. Too bad that he doesn't have Moonblast to drop Special Attack with.

Vital Spirit Archeops: Man, this would be an insanely good idea no matter which ability you chose, as long as it wasn't a hindering ability. Vital Spirit allows Archeops to shrug off sleeping moves with ease, so that's cool. But the ability isn't what makes Archeop so good now, it's the lack of a hindering ability. 140 / 112 offenses are amazing, and having the movepool and 110 base Speed to back them up is pretty boss, and Head Smash might be a usable option now. Dude, this theorymon is going to be awesome, and will definitely get my vote.

Also, very happy for the Theorymon project coming back!
 
i believe it's obvious that jirachi is the biggest benefactor from these changes. it ditches it's largely detrimental psychic-typing which enables it to actually pull off slower boosting sets and defensive sets can cover more pokemon. however, of all the typing changes, fairy is absolutely THE best as it is just such an amazing defensive typing, and we almost saw this in mawile and klefki, the former of which can setup on many pokemon and the latter which has a ton of defensive potential but lacked the raw stats to pull it off. jirachi has a massive movepool and is sure to benefit immensely from this change; a great choice in this theorymon session. also Valmanway it does get moonblast fwiw but i think it may have some illegalities. it goes from something that loses to many common pokemon to one that walls them, which is amazing.

the others dont look interesting tbh, seismitoad just becomes a worse gastrodon if it tries to go defensive (aside from having access to stealth rock), archeops is a boring change imo, and electivire is still both frail and slow and i would almost always use something like thundurus or raikou or manectric. i guess it troubles by chansey as much.
 
Archeops without Defeatist just becomes premiere non-Mega wallbreaker in the tier. This mon has enough versatility and power to 2HKO entire stall. Skarmory is OHKOd 37.5% of the time after Rocks by Life Orb Heat Wave and even 2HKOd by Head Smash, Ferrothorn is OHKOd 50% of the time after Rocks, and offensive Mega Venusaur is OHKOd 37.5% of the time after Rocks with LO Head Smash and OHKOd after Rocks with itemless Acrobatics. But what's more, Archeops can be a great lure to Quagsire:
4 SpA Life Orb Archeops Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 354-416 (89.8 - 105.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So basically, it crushes walls with its sheer power. Too bad Archeops is a cannon made for single shot, and dies from two of his own Head Smashes.
 
  • 466.png
    Sheer Force Electivire
Electivire's problem is his typing, his stats and the fact that he needs a "support ability" like Manectric, you can't switch with it at all, motor drive was actually better because you need the speed boost / electric immunity to really threaten a team.
  • 537.png
    + Recover
Good addition for rains i guess, i'd rather see swampert with recover than this mon, his stats are not that great.
  • 385.png
    Steel / Fairy Jirachi
I think we all dreamed about that, and i think a mega-jirachi will come sooner or later, but yeah, great typing, the dark/ghost weakness was huge, especially with the now banned aegislash and knock off everywhere. CM / Wish support would be great in any team with this typing.
  • 567.png
    Vital Spirit Archeops
I don't really get the fact that his main ability made him bad...but it wasn't gonna be OU anyway. His movepool is still crap and it's still really frail. Now that aerodactyl can be mega and stuff, nothing to see here.
 
dadoux said:
  • 466.png
    Sheer Force Electivire
Electivire's problem is his typing, his stats and the fact that he needs a "support ability" like Manectric, you can't switch with it at all, motor drive was actually better because you need the speed boost / electric immunity to really threaten a team.
  • 537.png
    + Recover
Good addition for rains i guess, i'd rather see swampert with recover than this mon, his stats are not that great.
  • 385.png
    Steel / Fairy Jirachi
I think we all dreamed about that, and i think a mega-jirachi will come sooner or later, but yeah, great typing, the dark/ghost weakness was huge, especially with the now banned aegislash and knock off everywhere. CM / Wish support would be great in any team with this typing.
  • 567.png
    Vital Spirit Archeops
I don't really get the fact that his main ability made him bad...but it wasn't gonna be OU anyway. His movepool is still crap and it's still really frail. Now that aerodactyl can be mega and stuff, nothing to see here.
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Archeops has pretty wide movepool including Stone Edge, Head Smash, Earthquake, Earth Power, Acrobatics, Heat Wave, Knock Off, Hidden Power of any type, Taunt, Switcheroo, Roost, Bounce, Stealth Rock, Aqua Tail, U-turn. Maybe is doesn't get Fangs like Mega Aerodactyl but doesn't waste Mega slot, has his main STAB boosted by item (or doesn't have but heck, 110 STAB from 140 Atk), has ability to go mixed and has enough power to break sturdiest walls in the tier. Also Mega Lucario was very frail as well and so is Greninja so fraility is not in case.
 
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