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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]
- Thread starter bb skarm
- Start date
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PANIC STATIONS
WHAT DO I KNOW ABOUT NOIVERN
f*** all really
But it sure is nice not to have to rely on Specs for the power it so sorely needs. 97 base Sp.Atk and all :| Definite improvement. Competes with, what... Latios? Pidgeot, Tornadus-T, NP HP Flying Thundurus if that's a thing (I think it is)?? But Noivern's issues are more than its low sp.atk. I'm not gonna say it's going to find it hard to find time to set up, not when Specs has to switch in and out constantly so that's something Noivern's already had to deal with - but it does have issues with longevity. Kinda frail, weak to rocks, priority is a massive issue of course, and ultimately there are other special setup users that one could use instead. Also Unaware Clefable :0 Adding to that the fact that you lose out on moves like U-Turn for momentum, a less nukable Draco Meteor (1 turn setting up, 1-2 turns spamming, 1 turn switch: Easily taken advantage of) and you're a little bit tight on coverage, don't add up to a great Pokemon. It's not really strong enough to take advantage of HO teams and it can't really set up on stall. Nasty Plot is still something I'd like to see Noivern get, and if anything, NP Noivern just adds to Noivern's overall usability instead of being one standalone set. The Specs set should be considered alongside it as one of two viable options. And I guess you could always run expert belt to fake it and force a switch on Ferrothorns or whatever. (Although you could just ditch the ruse and taunt it.)
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But, like, Clefable.
WHAT DO I KNOW ABOUT NOIVERN
f*** all really
But it sure is nice not to have to rely on Specs for the power it so sorely needs. 97 base Sp.Atk and all :| Definite improvement. Competes with, what... Latios? Pidgeot, Tornadus-T, NP HP Flying Thundurus if that's a thing (I think it is)?? But Noivern's issues are more than its low sp.atk. I'm not gonna say it's going to find it hard to find time to set up, not when Specs has to switch in and out constantly so that's something Noivern's already had to deal with - but it does have issues with longevity. Kinda frail, weak to rocks, priority is a massive issue of course, and ultimately there are other special setup users that one could use instead. Also Unaware Clefable :0 Adding to that the fact that you lose out on moves like U-Turn for momentum, a less nukable Draco Meteor (1 turn setting up, 1-2 turns spamming, 1 turn switch: Easily taken advantage of) and you're a little bit tight on coverage, don't add up to a great Pokemon. It's not really strong enough to take advantage of HO teams and it can't really set up on stall. Nasty Plot is still something I'd like to see Noivern get, and if anything, NP Noivern just adds to Noivern's overall usability instead of being one standalone set. The Specs set should be considered alongside it as one of two viable options. And I guess you could always run expert belt to fake it and force a switch on Ferrothorns or whatever. (Although you could just ditch the ruse and taunt it.)
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...
....
But, like, Clefable.
Only problem with he who shall not be named leaving for NP Noivern is uh... pretty late into discussion so it's hard to think about. I guess right now I can think of it's two biggest problems being difficulty to set up due to it's frailty and uh... yeah, Clefable. I'll have to ask wifey Recreant more about it to see it's pros.
I'd like to thank the academy for telling me what to do and my mom for being a pain in the behind
Seriously
Thanks a bunch to the Theorymon crew, this is really an honor and made a pretty rough day, well, actually a rough couple of weeks, into amazing ones. I've loved Theorymons since I joined almost a year ago, and I honestly never expected this day to come. This is basically a one year anniversary gift to me, and I couldn't have asked for a better one lol. I'm quite excited to get to know all of you better as well. I'll try to submit good things, I promise n-n
Best wishes to good user Salemance to your future endeavors. I know I'm not going to match up to you since you've done so much here, but I'll try my best to contribute as much as possible. We're going to miss you!
Seriously
Thanks a bunch to the Theorymon crew, this is really an honor and made a pretty rough day, well, actually a rough couple of weeks, into amazing ones. I've loved Theorymons since I joined almost a year ago, and I honestly never expected this day to come. This is basically a one year anniversary gift to me, and I couldn't have asked for a better one lol. I'm quite excited to get to know all of you better as well. I'll try to submit good things, I promise n-n
Best wishes to good user Salemance to your future endeavors. I know I'm not going to match up to you since you've done so much here, but I'll try my best to contribute as much as possible. We're going to miss you!
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Salemance no ;( Well at least we will get a good replace-
Huh, oh Nasty Plot Noivern is cool, probs gonna get my vote.
oh...
Huh, oh Nasty Plot Noivern is cool, probs gonna get my vote.
Nasty Plot Noivern does sound like a great replacement, though. Noivern has an amazing Speed tier, decent Special Attack, and a fairly good movepool, so adding Nasty Plot into the mix would really spice Noivern's game up. After a single Nasty Plot, Noivern can easily dismantle weakened offensive teams, making it a great late-game cleaner. It also works as a solid wallbreaker, OHKOing Heatran with Focus Blast and Mega Sableye with either STAB attack, just as a few examples. What's cool is that Noivern can fire off two consecutive Draco Meteors while still maintaining good power on the second hit after a Nasty Plot, which is neat. Getting the boost could be a challenge though, as 85 / 80 / 80 defenses only let it take so many hits, but I think Nasty Plot Noivern will be capable of pulling its weight.
And yes, it's good to have you on the team, Recreant . Also was fun having you on board Salemance . Fare thee well.
Noivern certainly seems to me like he'll be a pretty good cleaner, though I'm curious how he'll make use of those boosts. That speed tier is great, but the bulk and typing isn't the most kind to set up. Stall teams will need multiple boosts to break (though Boomburst means Subs can't save them), whereas offense might have trouble taking its High BP moves IF it forces a boost.
The big problem I have with Noivern as a Booster is that he seems a bit easier for the opponent to call a bluff: If the opponent predicts it'll boost, the Pokemon that would be forced out can do serious damage. Compare to other boosters like Zard-X or Altaria, who either force the target out for sure unboosted, or have the bulk to take anything that target will throw at them.
The big problem I have with Noivern as a Booster is that he seems a bit easier for the opponent to call a bluff: If the opponent predicts it'll boost, the Pokemon that would be forced out can do serious damage. Compare to other boosters like Zard-X or Altaria, who either force the target out for sure unboosted, or have the bulk to take anything that target will throw at them.
I'll miss salamence!
Hmm, do we know any other dragons with 97 SpAtk?
Now, the comparison isn't entirely fair, since other than Dragon typing and 97 SpAtk, there's nothing else they really share except quad grass resistance. In before "Their roles are different!" Ya don't say!?! There's no need to go there.
I'm just asking this: if a 33% boost is good enough for Dragalge, then would a 2x boost be good enough for Noivern?
Now, the comparison isn't entirely fair, since other than Dragon typing and 97 SpAtk, there's nothing else they really share except quad grass resistance. In before "Their roles are different!" Ya don't say!?! There's no need to go there.
I'm just asking this: if a 33% boost is good enough for Dragalge, then would a 2x boost be good enough for Noivern?
That's not a fair comparison (lol I know that statement echoes your own in all the wrong ways) since Dragalge gets that off the bat (and also the 33% is a bit misleading - not technically wrong, but misleading!) whereas Noivern has to set up and any phasing or switch neuters it. And it doesn't find setting up all that easy, either.
A point in its favour is that Dragalge doesn't get the boost on non-stab moves, whereas Noivern gets Fire/Fighting/Boomburst coverage after that x2 boost. But you really can't compare their coverage since they're just not comparable past that initial strength level and typing.
A point in its favour is that Dragalge doesn't get the boost on non-stab moves, whereas Noivern gets Fire/Fighting/Boomburst coverage after that x2 boost. But you really can't compare their coverage since they're just not comparable past that initial strength level and typing.
Honestly, that isn't a good question because you need to factor in the role difference. There are also a few differences that separate the two.
1.) Dragalge has immediate power; Noivern needs a turn to boost up to 2x
2.) Draglage is meant to slam things and then GTFO; Noivern is meant to function AFTER things have been slammed.
tl;dr The two have nothing in common aside from Dragon-typing, so the comparison is pointless.
Anybody else, please do not bring up Dragalge in this discussion unless it highlights Nasty Plot Noivern in a favorable/unfavorable manner and is relevant. Comparing the two Pokemon is off topic and will not be tolerated.
My only issue with Nasty Plot Noivern is that it is essentially a specially based version of swords dance talonflame without priority and depending on inaccurate attacks, leaving it less consistent. Despite being on opposite sides of the attacking spectrum, as a fast setup sweeper, I find Talonflame to be far more intimidating due to being far more difficult to revenge kill, and it has reliable stabs that threaten most common walls not named Heatran/Tyranitar. I still think it is a fine idea, but it will always fall short of Talonflame in my eyes.
Noivern at +2 can actually take out a VERY significant portion of the metagame. I'll post things that are OHKO'd.
The set used:
Noivern @ Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
Timid Nature
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 Def
-Nasty Plot
-Draco Meteor
-Hurricane
-Focus Blast
I got tired of calcs after the S through A ranks, but you get the idea. Literally everything that is "excellent in the metagame" is OHKO'd at +2
The set used:
Noivern @ Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
Timid Nature
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 Def
-Nasty Plot
-Draco Meteor
-Hurricane
-Focus Blast
S Rank: Keldeo, Mega-Sableye, Mega Metagross after Stealth Rocks and Spikes (or just residual damage)
A+ Rank: Mega Altaria (bulky sets after Rocks), Azumarill (unless AV), Bisharp, Charizard X, Mega Diancie (after Rocks), Gengar, Gliscor (any set), Mega Gyarados, Heatran, Landorus, Landorus-T (although you have to hit Scarf on the switch), Mega Lopunny, Latios, Mega Slowbro, Talonflame, Thundurus
A Rank: Everything (Bulky Mega Scizor needs Stealth Rocks to ENSURE the KO, but it can be done without rocks)
A- Rank: Everything except for Jirachi
A+ Rank: Mega Altaria (bulky sets after Rocks), Azumarill (unless AV), Bisharp, Charizard X, Mega Diancie (after Rocks), Gengar, Gliscor (any set), Mega Gyarados, Heatran, Landorus, Landorus-T (although you have to hit Scarf on the switch), Mega Lopunny, Latios, Mega Slowbro, Talonflame, Thundurus
A Rank: Everything (Bulky Mega Scizor needs Stealth Rocks to ENSURE the KO, but it can be done without rocks)
A- Rank: Everything except for Jirachi
Ah spreading the love of stall and punishments? Just know I'm around Sun King
Mold Breaker Shuckle will be interesting to use, annoying to face.
Unaware Black Eevee is something i don't look forward to, primarily cos of my hate of anything that improves stall
Sucker Punch Po is what i liked most from the initial slate (gj Pato :] ), but now there's a challenger
NP Noivern is the challenger. imo Noivern and Mega Jesus Burd both are halves of the perfect thing, seperated by GF. Pidgeot's got the immediate offensive power+no guard, but no Focus Miss or any cool boosting move(it has only Work Up iirc), while Noivern has a better movepool, and is slightly faster and bulky(difference of 2hp points only). NP Noivern will definitely be a nice contender for Mega Pidgeot's spot.
R.I.P. Salemance your unique way of talking will be missed, welcome Recreant and pls change your avy, that bloodbath makes me shudder
Unaware Black Eevee is something i don't look forward to, primarily cos of my hate of anything that improves stall
Sucker Punch Po is what i liked most from the initial slate (gj Pato :] ), but now there's a challenger
NP Noivern is the challenger. imo Noivern and Mega Jesus Burd both are halves of the perfect thing, seperated by GF. Pidgeot's got the immediate offensive power+no guard, but no Focus Miss or any cool boosting move(it has only Work Up iirc), while Noivern has a better movepool, and is slightly faster and bulky(difference of 2hp points only). NP Noivern will definitely be a nice contender for Mega Pidgeot's spot.
R.I.P. Salemance your unique way of talking will be missed, welcome Recreant and pls change your avy, that bloodbath makes me shudder
Wow, got back from school and saw NP Noivern. It's really annoying that Noivern still has to rely on low accuracy move if it uses the NP, draco/dragon pulse, hurricane, flamethrower/focus blast set. Flamethrower and draco/dragon pulse are the only moves with actually reliable accuracy, but if you forgo hurricane for air slash it's still kinda weak.
Ayy, gratz Recreant for getting on the council. As a fellow Absol lover, I order you to change your avatar :] Eh I'll miss you Salemance RIP
Ayy, gratz Recreant for getting on the council. As a fellow Absol lover, I order you to change your avatar :] Eh I'll miss you Salemance RIP
On topic however, Nasty Plot Noivern is pretty cool. Kind of sucks that it has to rely on Focus Blast and Hurricane, but hey, if Tornadus can do it, so can Noivern. Not much else to say on it, a good boost to a Pokemon that needed something to let it standout in the fast Dragon crowd.
Right, weekend away for vacation, nice to see lots of discussion on the slate! Thought I'd just address some of the discussion on my nomination, let you know how I see it.
I was playing in the RU suspect test recently and saw how much of an impact Po has had there, which lead me to think how it would do in OU (big step up, I know). I tested it out, but just couldn't justify its use; it's just too easy to force out, and not quick enough to use on offense. So I looked into its movepool, and couldn't believe it didn't already have Sucker Punch - it's a fighting panda ffs. Reason 1 then, is to fix a standard Gamefreak injustice.
Reason two is that the ORAS meta is all about speed, speed and priority. Sucker Punch makes Panda instantly viable. Not A+/S rank, but just really good - we all know how great an offensive type dark is, and 80BP priority hits HARD, especially with just one less base attack than Bisharp. Panda's stabs hit everything for neutral damage, apart from fairies.
This was the sort of discussion I'd hoped for. Pangoro has three amazing abilities - Mold Breaker, Scrappy, and Iron Fist; it also has the sets to take advantage of everyone of them. Mold breaker, for example, ensures Unaware Clefable gets wrecked and that defensive sets can Toxic Sableye.
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 317-374 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 213-252 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Pangoro Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 424-499 (107.6 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also Quagsire gets wrecked:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Pangoro Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 360-425 (91.3 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Scrappy with LO just wrecks MegaSableye:
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 281-330 (92.4 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Iron Fist wrecks Keldeo looking to switch in:
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pangoro Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 296-348 (91.6 - 107.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Or it makes Focus Punch hit like an absolute truck:
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pangoro Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 231-273 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Now what it doesn't have, is the speed to wreck offensive teams. This gen, Bisharp has become the icon of HO, and I think Sucker Punch would make Panda just as viable, and an excellent partner for it, as it wears down Mandibuzz, Keldeo, Swampert, and Mega Scizor, among other Bisharp checks. A +2 panda would do serious work for HO teams, as it wouldn't be so worried about running Hammer Arm, which reduces its speed. Check the calc out for the ubiquitous Lando-T:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 286-339 (89.6 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
A penultimate note for this great partnership is that without Ice Punch (which it would struggle to fit on its set), Lando-T gets a free switch in, and thus Bisharp gets a free +1 with a double switch. With Bisharps Knock Off, you could just run Sucker Punch as dark STAB, as fighting/poison is really great coverage as it is. Finally, Gunk Shot hits just as hard as Bisharp's STAB iron head, making a slot for focus punch that much easier to free up.
The threat of Sucker Punch is what really makes Po great though. You either stay in, attack, and get blasted by Sucker Punch, or switch out/set-up (predicting Sucker Punch) and get wrecked by hammer arm/focus punch. A sub-punch set with Gunk Shot and Sucker Punch would be great on balanced teams, or a breloom-like set sacrificing sub to smack switch-ins with Focus Punch. I think the mind games it create would make it incredibly fun or frustrating to play with and against. It might not even have Sucker Punch, but you have to play differently against it, assuming it would.
Pangoro.....reacts to that lol in the following way (Outspeeding Clefable, Sylveon, and defensive Togekiss):
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 377-445 (100.8 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 317-374 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 354-416 (89.8 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 432-510 (119 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gardevoir is the only fairy that runs enough speed to beat Panda, and without Will-o-Wisp/Sub, just gets destroyed by Sucker Punch:
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 247-292 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
tl;dr:
4MSS might be a problem, but its versatility would be what makes it great.
I'll post in a bit commenting on the rest of the slate.
I was playing in the RU suspect test recently and saw how much of an impact Po has had there, which lead me to think how it would do in OU (big step up, I know). I tested it out, but just couldn't justify its use; it's just too easy to force out, and not quick enough to use on offense. So I looked into its movepool, and couldn't believe it didn't already have Sucker Punch - it's a fighting panda ffs. Reason 1 then, is to fix a standard Gamefreak injustice.
Reason two is that the ORAS meta is all about speed, speed and priority. Sucker Punch makes Panda instantly viable. Not A+/S rank, but just really good - we all know how great an offensive type dark is, and 80BP priority hits HARD, especially with just one less base attack than Bisharp. Panda's stabs hit everything for neutral damage, apart from fairies.
This was the sort of discussion I'd hoped for. Pangoro has three amazing abilities - Mold Breaker, Scrappy, and Iron Fist; it also has the sets to take advantage of everyone of them. Mold breaker, for example, ensures Unaware Clefable gets wrecked and that defensive sets can Toxic Sableye.
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 317-374 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 213-252 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Pangoro Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 424-499 (107.6 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also Quagsire gets wrecked:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Pangoro Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 360-425 (91.3 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Scrappy with LO just wrecks MegaSableye:
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 281-330 (92.4 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Iron Fist wrecks Keldeo looking to switch in:
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pangoro Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 296-348 (91.6 - 107.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Or it makes Focus Punch hit like an absolute truck:
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pangoro Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 231-273 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Now what it doesn't have, is the speed to wreck offensive teams. This gen, Bisharp has become the icon of HO, and I think Sucker Punch would make Panda just as viable, and an excellent partner for it, as it wears down Mandibuzz, Keldeo, Swampert, and Mega Scizor, among other Bisharp checks. A +2 panda would do serious work for HO teams, as it wouldn't be so worried about running Hammer Arm, which reduces its speed. Check the calc out for the ubiquitous Lando-T:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 286-339 (89.6 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
A penultimate note for this great partnership is that without Ice Punch (which it would struggle to fit on its set), Lando-T gets a free switch in, and thus Bisharp gets a free +1 with a double switch. With Bisharps Knock Off, you could just run Sucker Punch as dark STAB, as fighting/poison is really great coverage as it is. Finally, Gunk Shot hits just as hard as Bisharp's STAB iron head, making a slot for focus punch that much easier to free up.
The threat of Sucker Punch is what really makes Po great though. You either stay in, attack, and get blasted by Sucker Punch, or switch out/set-up (predicting Sucker Punch) and get wrecked by hammer arm/focus punch. A sub-punch set with Gunk Shot and Sucker Punch would be great on balanced teams, or a breloom-like set sacrificing sub to smack switch-ins with Focus Punch. I think the mind games it create would make it incredibly fun or frustrating to play with and against. It might not even have Sucker Punch, but you have to play differently against it, assuming it would.
Pangoro.....reacts to that lol in the following way (Outspeeding Clefable, Sylveon, and defensive Togekiss):
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 377-445 (100.8 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 317-374 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 354-416 (89.8 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 432-510 (119 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gardevoir is the only fairy that runs enough speed to beat Panda, and without Will-o-Wisp/Sub, just gets destroyed by Sucker Punch:
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 247-292 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
tl;dr:
4MSS might be a problem, but its versatility would be what makes it great.
I'll post in a bit commenting on the rest of the slate.
Don't forget about mega diance and mega altaria running enough speed to out speed (that's sometimes with altaria).
Altaria I'll accept, but Mega Diancie isn't really very bulky:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 166-196 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes - It doesn't need that much damage for a KO.
Oh wasn't saying it could switch in just saying that it can outspeed.
NP noviernen would be great for putting pressure on mons that your opponent needs (like physically defensive walls), and he'd probably get plenty of opportunities to set up given the plethora of those. however, weavile (and our moxievile) would annihilate him, instantly forcing him out of the picture.
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