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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

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Jonjonz said:
I'll to agree with Empoleon, it can absorb toxic and t-wave,stealth rock/defog or just try to sweep,adds some good versatility.
Someone that doesn't care about zapdos and can have some offence is kinda nice. Rotom wash cant swap out on you with volt switch (not that empoleon can do much in return except get burnt)
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While true that Empoleon can't quite defeat Rotom-W, it actively stops it (and Mega Manectric) from accomplishing their jobs thanks to typing and Lightningrod, meanwhile Scald burning them, Defogging hazards, or setting Rocks.

Empoleon isn't quite going to KO much, but Lightningrod essentially means he can turn any Electric type bar Focus Blast/Superpower Thundurus into free turns because they depend on Boltbeam coverage a lot of the time. If Empoleon is still around, he actively turns any time an Electric type appears into a liability for the opponent, since an inability to Volt Switch means no momentum grab and he has a turn to do as he pleases to exploit the switch.
 
Hnnnnn nothing I ever liked oh boy
I think I'm going to sit this voting period out. I dislike all of these suggestions (frankly I'm wondering why Cobalion didn't get a second chance with Intimidate rip), but I guess I'll say my points.
Just a warning I'm really grumpy this morning cause my bus for school came 10 minutes earlier earlier and it's 6 in the morning ugh

-Forretress + Sticky Web: Useless. With all of the Bisharps flying around, I hate using Sticky Web. And I hate Forretress. The two combinations just don't work, and considering that Forretress itself has no offensive presence at all, that's basically a free attack for that Bisharp, so I'm not a fan at all.

-Empoleon + Lightningrod: The only one worth voting for IMO. Gives it a great immunity and a way to actually be an Agility sweeper.

-Florges + Regenerator: Seriously, no. I hate Regenerator users anyways, and Florges is by far the ugliest Pokemon anyways so no

-Infernape + Prankster: Still outclassed by Sableye and it looses its use as a mixed attacker, which is my favorite use of it anyways.

Damn, I feel like an angry nerd or something sorry
 
Recreant said:
Hnnnnn nothing I ever liked oh boy
(frankly I'm wondering why Cobalion didn't get a second chance with Intimidate rip), but I guess I'll say my points.
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In a "second chance" round, the Pokemon are the ones who received the second most votes in the previous four rounds. For reasons I am still curious about, Florges put up 9 votes to Cobalion's 5 after generating mostly negative or disinterested discussion, so it'll be interesting to hear what the appeal is this time.

I'll post more in-depth thoughts later, but I had never really even looked at Foretress until last night and wow does that thing have a support move pool to brag about or what? Dual screens, Rapid Spin, and every hazard except Sticky Web...I'm a little surprised it isn't already viable.
 
Dang, these are all entries I really liked (with the exception of Regenerator Florges, which I didn't necessarily hate, but really wasn't my fav).

I feel like Webs Forretress would mean we'd finally have a viable web user. I know that's more of a buff to webs than to Forry, but it would give Forry a niche that just doesn't hasn't existed for it ever since Ferrothorn put it out of a job years ago.

Lightningrod Empoleon is pretty cool, as now it counters basically every electric type in addition to countering Greninja. I guess I might be leaning toward this one right now, but it's tough to say.

Anyone who has played with Alomomola knows how cool Regenerator Wishpassing is. Of course, this is the one I'd be least intererested in using on a team, because Clefable is a thing that exists and even with this buff, Clefable is just way more useful all around.

Prankster Infernape is one I just talked about. It would be the only Prankster Rocks user in the game. That's pretty cool.
 
Ooooooookayyyyyyyy gonna post thoughts on this slate. Haven't really done that in a while.

  • Forretress: This one was one of my oooooolllllllld submissions. I think it lost to one of my other submissions, but that's beside the point. It's still just as cool as it was last time. Probably the best thing about Forretress as a hazard user is that it has that bulky slow Volt-Switch to bring something in safely. While Recreant was correct that Bisharp is everywhere, you could very easily Volt Switch to Magnezone to trap and kill it. It also gets Rapid Spin, so you can remove opposing hazards while keeping yours intact. Definitely not a one dimensional Theorymon; still think it's a great submission--personal bias aside.

  • Empoleon: Another thing that lost to one of my submissions :3 Actually quite good, to be honest. This in our metagame would probably force more Greninjas to run Low Kick, so Empoleon would be a pretty shaky switch in until you know Greninja's set. I think that punishing Rotom-W switch ins right at Team Matchup is a really cool thing though. Empoleon would be a great Defogger for teams because it provides a full stop to BoltBeam threats. I'd say that this thing's biggest asset, however, is just removing Rotom-W from being a factor.

  • Florges: Regenerator Wish passing is such a boss thing to do, especially with the bulk that Florges has on the SpDef side. This is a pretty one-dimensional submission, but it's really good at what it does. I'll try to make a team with it and post a replay, because everyone's been shit talking this and I think it's better than that.

  • Infernape: I was slightly heartbroken when this didn't win. It's VERY good in our current metagame because stall is pretty good at the moment. Two things stopping it from fulfilling its niche, however, are Slowbro and Sableye--the two best stall megas out there at the moment. Slowbro is a problem even before Mega Evolution because Scald 2HKO's, so you can't Slack Off stall it; Sableye, once it's Mega Evolved, can switch in on Infernape and bounce back everything it can do. Any stall teams lacking these two megas, however, can and will be shut down by this monstah.
 
Empoleon: Forcing Greninja to run Low Kick is actually a point in Empoleon's favor, since it makes Greninja significantly easier to beat. With that, the standard set pretty much needs Ice Beam/Gunk Shot/Low Kick, which leaves exactly one coverage option. Not sure how hard it gets hit, but Ferrothorn is probably more comfortable switching into Low Kick than HP Fire, while there's still the Dark Pulse/Extrasensory/Grass Knot options. Limiting Greninja to one optional move (Ice Beam is essentially his main STAB, and no Gunk Shot = No Fairy KOs) immediately hinders the versatility that makes him arguably the best Pokemon in the Metagame. And this comes on top of the mentioned benefits like hard-stopping Electric Types and Volt Switchers. Scald burns also hinder the attempts to manually switch, which helps given Empoleon's bulk is mainly Special. On top of that, Empoleon's key resistances w/ Lightningrod let him switch into several threats:
- Non-EQ Zard-X
- Non-Superpower/Focus Blast Thundurus
- Mega Manectric
- Non-Superpower Azumarill (is Superpower standard on it now?)
- Both Latis (unless Latios carries Earthquake)
- Mega Scizor without Superpower (which is slashed at best on anything but the offensive SD set)
- Fire Blast Altaria
- Rotom-W (obvious)
- Magnezone (A Steel that can reliably beat him is a godsend to avoid trapping)

Obviously lack of recovery means he can't check too many of these at once, but consider Empoleon's 2 sets.
If a set doesn't hate Specs Hydro Pump or Ice Beam (Azumarill, Bulky WoW Zard-X (Calc's bulky DD set risks OHKO), Roost Scizor (Offensive is OHKO'd after Rocks, still likely without), Rotom-W), they equally hate prospect of a Scald Burn or Toxic from the Defensive/Defog set crippling their offenses or ruining sweep potential.
LR Empoleon wouldn't necessarily be a game defining sweeper, but the likelihood of seeing Greninja + any of these other mons on an offensive team means Empoleon will almost always put in work somewhere.

Sun King said:
  • Infernape: I was slightly heartbroken when this didn't win. It's VERY good in our current metagame because stall is pretty good at the moment. Two things stopping it from fulfilling its niche, however, are Slowbro and Sableye--the two best stall megas out there at the moment. Slowbro is a problem even before Mega Evolution because Scald 2HKO's, so you can't Slack Off stall it; Sableye, once it's Mega Evolved, can switch in on Infernape and bounce back everything it can do. Any stall teams lacking these two megas, however, can and will be shut down by this monstah.
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While a Stall team without those Megas would be vulnerable to Prankster Infernape, that's like suggesting an early XY team without Aegislash: that condition is virtually non-exsistant because of those mon's importance to the playstyle or Meta game. Sableye in particular is very likely because on top of being a solid Stallmon himself, Prankster and Magic Bounce also mean he can give Stall trouble. Sableye puts in so much work and is so integral to the playstyle right now that being stopped by him alone is a serious point against anything as a Stallbreaker.
 
pika pal said:
While a Stall team without those Megas would be vulnerable to Prankster Infernape, that's like suggesting an early XY team without Aegislash: that condition is virtually non-exsistant because of those mon's importance to the playstyle or Meta game. Sableye in particular is very likely because on top of being a solid Stallmon himself, Prankster and Magic Bounce also mean he can give Stall trouble. Sableye puts in so much work and is so integral to the playstyle right now that being stopped by him alone is a serious point against anything as a Stallbreaker.
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That's not true at all. Neither Sableye nor Slowbro are REQUIRED to make a good stall team. jpw234 made an excellent team showcasing defensive Mega Altaria. I can promise you that Infernape would perform very well against teams like those. Even against teams WITH Sableye, you could always just run U-Turn on Infernape to switch to a Fairy and force it out again. I think that Prankster Infernape would perform very well in our metagame right now.
 
Fuck i missed votings. My vote was for milotic if anyone cares.
Just quick opinions in this "new" slate because i'm on my phone. With sticky web forretress becomes the hazards lord, But that doesn't solve any of forretress' problems. I don't like florges because that would be another fat annoying regenerating mon that however doesn't add a lot to the meta as we already have a regen wishpasser in mola and its wishes are better than florges', even if florges is not as passive as mola. I like infernape because of those HO lead things and i love playing offensively, however at the end of the day it is just another pesky prankster status spreader and i'm sure a lot of people hate them. Empoleon is the superior option here, i really liked this the first time it was slated but goodra was too good not to be voted, lightningrod basically makes empoleon a counter for every electric type in the meta except gocus blast thundy and gives it a lot of switch-in opportunities to setup rocks or defog away hazards or just hit the opposing switch-in with scald trying to burn it.
 
I like them all (except prankster), so this it's hard.

Empoleon is the one I see as the most effective poke. A bulky water type with that amazing steel type slapped on along with a steel immunity is a fantastic idea that really sets it apart, and the only reason I didn't vote for it before was Goodra was just too good. It was well discussed before, so I won't go into too much detail, but this has obvious roles in the metagame that will make it easy to fit on teams and fun to play with.

Forretress has the most potential to bring something totally new. When we first heard of sticky web, we all freaked. Then we heard who got it, and we all just forgot about it. A SW setter with actual viability in case you don't actually need SW is extraordinary, and would be what really interesting to see things we can see with this new option.

Florges is the biggest wild card. Sylveon is this big looming annoyance that will always threaten its viability, and regenerator is not really enough to replace it, so Florges would need to find unique things it can do with Regenerator that Sylveon, and possibly more importantly mola can't. The wish passing fairy will certainly be good enough to try though.

Infernape is a prankster, and that's a huge strike against it in my book, but that's not the only reason I dislike it. It doesn't really have the bulk to effectively tank with WoW and Slack Off, priority stealth rock and taunt makes it an instant pro suicide lead, but there's plenty that can do it almost as well, and doing purely that is a waste of those offenses. Plus, this theory was obviously crafted before the 108 speed tier was rendered mediocre at best for frail pokemon. Infernape just isn't as good after lati@s, altaria, gallade, and others decided to just laugh it into mediocrity. Plus, even though I realize there's little place for this in the discussion, Prankster Froslass will really compete with this thing, and I really don't want to ever play the guessing game of whether to taunt or switch or what.

But I'm probably just biased.
 
Kairyu_Gen1 said:
Prankster Froslass will really compete with this thing, and I really don't want to ever play the guessing game of whether to taunt or switch or what.
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Friendly reminder to everyone that we aren't discussing things that have previously been slated in terms of the viability of the current slate. We're only talking about OU as it is without any other theorymons.

Thanks!
 
Sun King said:
Friendly reminder to everyone that we aren't discussing things that have previously been slated in terms of the viability of the current slate. We're only talking about OU as it is without any other theorymons.

Thanks!
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Its actual a valid point as they will coexist within the same Meta man in theory, so it is worth talking of oppurtunity cost and or competition it could face from another Mon (like how well bulletproof Meta wended up working beautifully against ghost/fairy mismagius) that was similar and ended up winning earlier.
 
Salemance said:
Its actual a valid point as they will coexist within the same Meta man in theory, so it is worth talking of oppurtunity cost and or competition it could face from another Mon (like how well bulletproof Meta ended up working beautifully against ghost/fairy mismagius). Its a valid reason to consider while voting.
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I distinctly remember being told that it was completely irrelevant well before I was on the council. I still think it's completely irrelevant because we have no official ladder/official metagame, so we don't actually know what the metagame would be like.

In regards to Prankster Froslass and Infernape competing--they don't really work the same. Infernape is designed to be durable and heal off damage from weak and passive mons; Froslass is designed to die and take something down with it. Still think it's irrelevant to discuss this.
 
Sun King said:
I distinctly remember being told that it was completely irrelevant well before I was on the council. I still think it's completely irrelevant because we have no official ladder/official metagame, so we don't actually know what the metagame would be like.

In regards to Prankster Froslass and Infernape competing--they don't really work the same. Infernape is designed to be durable and heal off damage from weak and passive mons; Froslass is designed to die and take something down with it. Still think it's irrelevant to discuss this.
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Seems odd you would say that but just I'm going by how it had been done in past (similar methods in how say people would talk of PH Goodra competing for slot with PH Snorkeling or so) hence why I see no harm in discussing it as it can be a discussion point that does nor real harm bud.
 
Alright, I'll post a more in depth explanation as to why I think the Theorymon metagame is irrelevant in discussion...



I'll start of with a reiteration of the thread's goal. Our goal is to change one aspect of a less viable Pokemon to see how it affects our current OU metagame. We have set up limitations so that we don't get too carried away, and it helps promote more creative submissions.

So why would it be irrelevant to talk about our archived winners? The simple answer is that it deviates from our goal. By inviting another metagame into our discussion, we are effectively taking away from the importance of "OU as it is". I can completely understand that it's convenient to talk about a Theorymon metagame, seeing as this is the OU Theorymon Project, but it actually contributes to a subtle yet significant distinction in thread intention. By keeping the discussion revolving around the present OU metagame, we're staying within the realms of this OU Forum. The reason we have been allowed one thread to theorymon in is purely because the focus is on furthering our understanding of our current metagame. The minute we even suggest a metagame in which other Theorymons exist, we are beginning to gravitate towards an OM (Other Metagame, for those of you that don't know) thread.

Now--I would very much like to be able to keep the OU Theorymon Project in the OU Forums. I think that by endorsing the existence of other Theorymons, we are essentially talking about creating a new metagame. While I won't deny that I would love to do that, I also do not want to detract from this thread's core goal. So please, all I ask is that we keep the discussion of archived winners out of this thread unless you are using a past submission as a precedent for whichever argument you are making. In other words, unless you are explaining WHY a submission won in an effort to promote a current submission, it is irrelevant. Pitting a Theorymon on the current slate against a Theorymon of a past slate does nothing to contribute to our current metagame.

Another issue I'd like to address is the adversarial environment we have in our thread. I can understand that it is a lot of fun to vote for your favorite submissions. I do think, however, that we have gotten a little carried away with this. The goal of the thread is not to vote for things so that we can create a new metagame. Our goal is to examine 4 different Theorymons and see how they affect our metagame; at the end, we vote for the one we would most like to see in our current metagame. I'd like to reiterate--we vote for what we would like to see in our current metagame. That doesn't mean we vote for what we would like to see in a different metagame. I'm not saying that you should vote for any specific Theorymon; if we slate something, you can vote for any of them when the time comes. What I am saying is that we should vote for things purely based on how they work in the present OU metagame.

I'd like to conclude by saying that I'm very pleased with the way this thread has operated. For the most part, we have had excellent discussion about the various components that comprise our metagame. I've certainly learned a lot about what it takes to make a Pokemon good in OU. All I ask is that we keep our discussion on topic; let's not get carried away. Looking forward to more good discussion folks. Stay classy.

Thanks all,

Sun King
 
Sorry for shitty formatting, but phone posting is a bitch. I'll probably edit this later.

Forretress + Sticky Web: Totally worthless since Shuckle exists.

Empoleon + Lightning Rod: Actually pretty sweet at stopping Electrics not named Thundurus and not being Magnezone bait like every other Steel.

Florges + Regenerator: Not sure about this one since it still has a ton of issues (like poor HP for Wishpassing and pretty bad Physical bulk), but it hits decently hard and the Special bulk is great.

Infernape + Prankster: Not gonna rehash this since it was so recent, but being delicously annoying is enough for a vote. :P
 
Karxrida said:
Sorry for shitty formatting, but phone posting is a bitch. I'll probably edit this later.

Forretress + Sticky Web: Totally worthless since Shuckle exists.
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Lolwut? I'd argue that it's WAY better than Shuckle because it can actually do things. Shuckle is basically "hazards then done". Forretress can spin, and it's got access to Volt-Switch, so it doesn't COMPLETELY kill your momentum. Definitely a better user than Shuckle imo.
 
Sun King said:
Lolwut? I'd argue that it's WAY better than Shuckle because it can actually do things. Shuckle is basically "hazards then done". Forretress can spin, and it's got access to Volt-Switch, so it doesn't COMPLETELY kill your momentum. Definitely a better user than Shuckle imo.
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Shuckle has Knock Off and Encore so it isn't setup bait like Forretress, plus Forrey is a really shit spinner because it gets cockblocked by every Ghost in the Tier. It can't even KO Gengar while it take like 60% Shadow Ball.
 
Karxrida said:
An extremely weak one. Doesn't help that Sticky Web is matchup reliant to a degree, teams with Mega Sableye don't give two shits, and you can't stop other hazard users or Defoggers.
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You don't use Volt Switch for the damage. You use it for the switch initiative. Here's a scenario.

  • You switch Forretress in to Spin
  • Opponent switches in Gengar to spinblock
  • You hit Volt-Switch instead of Rapid Spin, and you go to a Pursuit trapper.
  • Gengar dies.
  • You are free to Spin
 
Sun King said:
You don't use Volt Switch for the damage. You use it for the switch initiative. Here's a scenario.

  • You switch Forretress in to Spin
  • Opponent switches in Gengar to spinblock
  • You hit Volt-Switch instead of Rapid Spin, and you go to a Pursuit trapper.
  • Gengar dies.
  • You are free to Spin
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Prediction goes both ways, and if you're running Sticky Web having ScarfTar or Weavile (slower Pursuiters can get D-Bonded or nuked by coverage) is kinda redundant. Hazards will also break Sturdy so you're going to have a hard time getting that spin against Offense, especially since they will have the momentum if you used ScarfTar for that trap.
 
I don't think that it's redundant to run ScarfTar or Weavile at all if you want to deal with the Fliers/Levitators that dodge Sticky Web. As far as KO'ing Gengar giving them momentum goes, well yeah. KO'ing things loses you momentum. But it also removes obstacles from your team. I'd also like to point out that not every team is running Gengar nor Sableye, so these arguments are pretty matchup reliant. By and large, Forretress is going to be an asset to your team through its many tools.
 
Sun King said:
I don't think that it's redundant to run ScarfTar or Weavile at all if you want to deal with the Fliers/Levitators that dodge Sticky Web. As far as KO'ing Gengar giving them momentum goes, well yeah. KO'ing things loses you momentum. But it also removes obstacles from your team. I'd also like to point out that not every team is running Gengar nor Sableye, so these arguments are pretty matchup reliant. By and large, Forretress is going to be an asset to your team through its many tools.
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Sableye is important because it's one of Stall's biggest assets and being completed shut down by it is a pretty big deal, especially since you can't just Trap it. Being forced to delay a Spin can be very detrimental because you are forced to take more hazard damage that can add up very quickly, especially if what you're supporting is something that needs hazards gone to function.

There's also the issue of Forretress's viability as a spinner. It's already been determined to be a piece of shit by the viability council and I highly doubt giving it a borderline (albeit reasonably effective all things considered) gimmicky move would change that.
 
Karxrida said:
Sableye is important because it's one of Stall's biggest assets and being completed shut down by it is a pretty big deal, especially since you can't just Trap it. Being forced to delay a Spin can be very detrimental because you are forced to take more hazard damage that can add up very quickly, especially if what you're supporting is something that needs hazards gone to function.

There's also the issue of Forretress's viability as a spinner. It's already been determined to be a piece of shit by the viability council and I highly doubt giving it a borderline (albeit reasonably effective all things considered) gimmicky move would change that.
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I didn't say that it wasn't important. I said that it wasn't on every team, making your argument matchup reliant. Speaking of match ups, Stall has always had a favorable matchup against Sticky Web teams mostly because it can handle Sticky Web itself. I'm also not saying that you should use Forretress solely for Rapid Spin. I think that you should use it for Sticky Web, and it has the added bonus of Rapid Spin and a momentum grabbing move. I believe the culmination of these assets makes Forretress well worth the team slot if you wanted to build around Sticky Web.
 
Sun King said:
I didn't say that it wasn't important. I said that it wasn't on every team, making your argument matchup reliant. Speaking of match ups, Stall has always had a favorable matchup against Sticky Web teams mostly because it can handle Sticky Web itself. I'm also not saying that you should use Forretress solely for Rapid Spin. I think that you should use it for Sticky Web, and it has the added bonus of Rapid Spin and a momentum grabbing move. I believe the culmination of these assets makes Forretress well worth the team slot if you wanted to build around Sticky Web.
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I never denied that matchup was part of my argument (or at least I don't think I did?), since matchup is inherent to Sticky Web itself.

If you're using Forrey mainly for Sticky Web, you might as well use Shuckle for the reasons previously stated.
 
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