Project OU Theorymon

escarlata said:
I mean srsly when is inaccuracy ever a problem if your other attributes are good? Tornadus-T still uses Hurricane over Air Slash; offensive Fire types still use Fire Blast; Starmie still uses Hydro Pump; stuff that use Stone Edge still use it; things that use Focus Blast still use it.
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The problem of Wide Lens is if you run it you will miss:
(1) or the power boost from Life Orb/Choice Band but this leaves you weak to burn/toxic ==> the calcs with Life Orb/Choice Band are impressive but they don't take in account the accuracy issue or the status all around
(2) or the utility of Lum Berry which enables you to do a free set-up towards some status spreaders without using a moveslot for Substitute (maybe the most consistent choice)

Hydro Pump from Starmie is STABbed and with the Analityc boost can dish out some good damage and has 110 base power
Fire Blast is the same as Hydro Pump with the extra 5% accuracy, not to mention that 85% accuracy is considered the minimum standard acceptable (see Will o' Wisp)
Tornadus-T uses Hurricane over Air Slash because the former has a higher base power (120 + STAB + nice effect) thus providing some kills that Air Slash can't
Focus Blast is the same (high base power) and is use often on glass cannons which or hit or die if this move miss

escarlata said:
Honestly, if you are so scared of Hustle making your attacks miss, just go slap a Wide Lens on it, work with 88% accuracy (Medicham has 2 STABs at 90%) and get a free Choice Band worth of attack boost.
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Yes, but without Wide Lens (lol) now Hustle Zygarde has at least 2 moves (Earthquake and Outrage), maybe three (Extremespeed) or four with a Choice item (Stone Edge), with 80% accuracy at the same time ==> Zygarde in my opinion is incosistent.
 
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Recreant said:
This slate will be:
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+ Hustle (Credit to Jaroda )
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+ Iron Barbs and Recover (Credit to YouAreOutOfMy5 )
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+ Delta Stream
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+ Wish (Credit to InfernapeTropius11 )

Good luck to all submissions :)
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Zygarde- Pretty cool that it can either do its signature boosting set to ensure it hits hard and accurately or that it can sacrifice accuracy for raw power and possibly speed. It makes it an interesting mon with drawbacks and strengths.

Tentacruel- I just don't want this thing in the metagame. I think people are actually underselling how good this thing would be, having iron barbs is pretty fucking massive and also getting recover would be absurd. Ferrothorn has leech seed but it's not the most reliable recovery in the world. Having a mon that can pull off the rocky helmet + rough skin or iron barbs combo with reliable recovery would be hell and to make matters worse you can't even overpower it by boosting or having raw physical stats because he can acid spray and scald burn. I agree when someone suggested Garchomp + Ferro + Tentacruel would become new meta, I think it is a real possibility.

Zapdos- This one just stabs at my heart because why would you want this in OU. With a single change weather is dead and we have this unreal monstrosity that has no weaknesses. Zapdos is fine right now anyway its usage and playstyle are fine he's been a consistent mon throughout Gen 6. Dunno why you wanna send him to Ubers.

Furfrou- With all the others being pretty good to ungodly broken I'm surprised with how underwhelming this last submission is. I just need to ask why we're giving mons like
Tentacruel two buffs when they're on the higher end of the spectrum of usable and we give mons like Furfrou who will never get play unless they're changed significantly one single buff that's just ok. Like why not give him Wish + Spiky Shield or Wish + Spikes or I dunno anything else that would make him even a little better? Dark typing maybe, he has a lot of dark moves for some reason although I know we just had the submission for Stoutland. Speaking of which I said the same thing for Stoutland like why was that mon not given something like Knock Off or Sucker Punch to go along with its dark type and make it more useful? These are easy fixes people.
 
nameless90 said:
Hydro Pump from Starmie is STABbed and with the Analityc boost can dish out some good damage and has 110 base power
Fire Blast is the same as Hydro Pump with the extra 5% accuracy, not to mention that 85% accuracy is considered the minimum standard acceptable (see Will o' Wisp)
Tornadus-T uses Hurricane over Air Slash because the former has a higher base power (120 + STAB + nice effect) thus providing some kills that Air Slash can't
Focus Blast is the same (high base power) and is use often on glass cannons which or hit or die if this move miss
P.S. All these high-power moves have .
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I fail to comprehend how you can accept having higher base power as a reason for aforementioned attacks to have lower accuracy yet label Zygarde as inconsistent when it is similar to them in trading accuracy for power.
(1) or the power boost from Life Orb/Choice Band but this leaves you weak to burn/toxic ==> the calcs with Life Orb/Choice Band are impressive but they don't take in account the accuracy issue or the status all around
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And did you just imply that any wallbreaker not holding a Lum Berry are overrated?
Edit: @below Ofc Lum can help set up sets, but I honestly think AOA would be more reliable.
But then you also just implied that Choice Band cannot set up against status users.

Edit2: @below
Honestly missing once in 5 and once in 10 is just a hyperbole. Accuracy converted to ratio really exaggerates the significance of 10%.
A move of accuracy 50% misses once every 2 hits, but with 60% misses every 3.33 hits.
A move of accuracy 80% misses once every 5 hits, but with 90% misses every 10 hits.
Ratio-wise, it seems like as if an increase from 80% to 90% is more significant than that from 50% to 60%, but we all know both are flat 10% increases.
Does Meteor Mash hit twice as often as Hydro Pump? No. Hydro Pump only misses twice as often.

Actually I don't even know why I'm defending Hustle Zygarde lol. It's not like as if I vote here or anything
 
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escarlata said:
I dont understand how you can accept having higher base power as a reason for aforementioned attacks to have lower accuracy yet label Zygarde as inconsistent when it is similar to them in trading accuracy for power.
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I answered this below the part you quoted: to summarize, I can accept using some high base power as a reason for the aforementioned attacks to have lower accuracy and yet label Zygarde as incosistent because this dragon has to run 2-3 or 4 depending on the set (SubCoil, Coil set, Dragon Dance set, all out attacker) and on the item you run (Lum Berry/Life Orb, Choice Band) moves with 80% accuracy at the same time in the same set (underlined+bolded).

Tornadus-T usually runs one move with low accuracy.
Starmie runs one move with low accuracy.
Focus Blast users runs this move and are usually fast and/or strong attakers which win hitting or die missing.
Can somebody tell me how many viable OU pokemons runs 2-3-4 low accuracy moves in the same set and tell me who they are?

i.e. Mega Metagross has 2 moves with 90% accuracy (Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt) but this means it will miss 1 time every 10 which is acceptable and because the base power of these moves makes up for the small accuracy loss.
80% accuracy means that Stone-Edgesque moves will fail 1 time every 5 which is "quite often" due to the fact that the chance to miss is doubled.

Not only that, but Zygarde has to compete with others monsters weak to 4x to Ice so it has to have something good to make me use it in place of Garchomp, Landorus-T or even Dragonite.

escarlata said:
And did you just imply that any wallbreaker not holding a Lum Berry are overrated?
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No, I implied that Lum Berry can be useful for Zygarde (a 95-base-speed monster) because this way it can set-up a Coil in the front of a status spreader not to mention that having the possibility to use Coil -which Zygarde really loves- rectifies the accuracy problem until it switches out. In my opinion, running a Lum Berry is useful for Zygarde to set-up in front of more pokemons in order to use the attack boost from Hustle.

escarlata said:
Honestly hitting once in 5 and once in 10 is just a hyperbole. Accuracy converted to ratio really exaggerates the significance of 10%.
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The word I bolded should be cancelled and replaced by "missing" because the sentence is just plain false with "hitting" (lol, if a move hits once every 5 times is trash ==> 20% accuracy). The remaining post below is correct.
 
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Im bored so I will post pros and cons of the new subs.

Pros
Hits INCREDIBLY hard with Band, breaking past former counters with its sheer power alone

Has the option to run SubCoil sets to boost bulk, attack and fix its accuracy issue all at once.

Has access to Glare to make annoying ParaShuffling sets possible.

Can boost it attack and speed and sweep easily (barring unfortunate misses)

Has the bulk to not mind a miss

Cons
Struggles to differenciate itself from other Ground-Type mons, (Garchomp's versatility, Landorus-T's Power, bulk and SR, Diggersby Raw power and Exca's use in weather)

Has an unfortunate ×4 weakness, which hurts even more in this metagame.

PROS
Gains reliable recovery.

Punishes mons that target its weaker Defence stat with Iron Barbs

Can punish physical attackers further with Scald.

Provides Spin support, which is great.

Can break through special walls with Acid Spray (and Knock off in Chansey's case)

Provides hazards of its own.

Cons
Still can't take strong neutral hits well

Most common physical move used against it doesn't make contact.

Develops a small amount of 4MSS syndrome, as it can't have Knock Off support, Spinning, recovery and STABS on one set.

Seriously struggles against Sand Offence

Rids itself of weaknesses, great for a defensive mon

Checks all forms of weather.

Checks Ground and Fighting types well now.

Mold Breaker and friends doesn't ignore Delta Stream

Provides Defog support

Reliable recovery

Cons (not much really, I've created a monster)

Loses the ability to check Flying types

Struggles against Defiant users.

Still doesn't solve its lack of a movepool.

Still weak to SR.

Its power and bulk can be abit underwheming at times with the power level in meta

Now has recovery.

Provides Wish Support.

Not as crippled by Knock Off as other defensive norms

Cons
Still setup bait for most physical and special attackers

COMPLETELY outclassed as a defensive normal type by others (Chansey has MUCH more HP for wish passing, also a cleric, has more support options like SR, T.wave. P2 has much more offensive presence. Has more support options too)

Normaltype ismt as good defensively in a meta where Ghosts have fallen in usage, and Fighting types are more viable)

That's it. Sorry, doing this over mobile, so its chaos.
 
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On the pros on Tentacruel I will add one more thing: now it can compete with Starmie as a rapid spinner (Starmie as an offensive spinner whereas Tentacruel is a more defensive one) with reliable recovery thanks to the different resists provided by the Poison type:
* Starmie is weak to Dark (Knock Off), Electric, Ghost, Grass, Bug while it resists to Fightning, Steel, Fire, Water, Psychic and Ice.
* Tentacruel is weak to Earth, Psychic, Electric while it resists to Fightning, Steel, Poison (defensive monster immune to Toxic and absorbs opposite Toxic Spikes), Bug, Fire, Water, Ice and Fairy (most Fairies have Psychic coverage, though) while being neutral to Grass (this means you can tank an unboosted Leaf Storm from Serperior once and dish out almost 58% damage to the snake with an univested Sludge Bomb which is added to the Life Orb recoil; Starmie does 90% with Ice Beam but Serperior can Giga Drain in return) and neutral to Dark (to tank better some Knock Off).

==> Tentacruel gained some niches over Starmie because now it can take hits more times before fainting.
 
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I hope people take in regard, Delta Stream Zapdos isn't as broken as people are trying to make it.

It still has checks in:
A. Strong physical attackers

B. Any mon with Defiant (barring Bisharp, who HAS to get the Defiant boost to check it.)

C. Pokes that seriously don't care about Electric/Fire coverage. Like MegaRupt, MegaSwamp, Gastrodon, Heatran

D. Bulky special tanks eg. Chansey, Goodra
 
G-Luke said:
I hope people take in regard, Delta Stream Zapdos isn't as broken as people are trying to make it.

It still has checks in:
A. Strong physical attackers

B. Any mon with Defiant (barring Bisharp, who HAS to get the Defiant boost to check it.)

C. Pokes that seriously don't care about Electric/Fire coverage. Like MegaRupt, MegaSwamp, Gastrodon, Heatran

D. Bulky special tanks eg. Chansey, Goodra
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I'm not arguing that Zapdos would be broken, but I some of these points dont make any sense. I think you must have meant strong special attackers check Zapdos, unless the SpDef set is more popular now. Zapdos normally runs a physical defensive set to better check Excadrill, Scizor, and Bird Spam.

Point B makes literally no sense at all, unless Delta Stream activates the Defiant boost on mons, which I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Zapdos doesn't have to click Defog if your opponent does have a defiant mon. Not to mention the only viable Defiant mon in OU is Bisharp, who Zapdos easily beats. If Zapdos is at full health, not even +2 Adamant Life Orb Bisharp OHKOs.

Both points C and D are true, although Zapdos can run HP Ice over Heat Wave to surprise Chomp, Lando-T, and Gliscor at the cost of not beating Ferro any more, and Toxic can catch a lot of special walls like Goodra (lol) and Hippo.
 
I like the hustle+coil thing....80% acc is fine for zygarde because it can take hits well on the physical side while other hustle users can't. Though I don't see how this differentiates from strong ground type attackers as mentioned above.
 
Melcalc said:
I like the hustle+coil thing....80% acc is fine for zygarde because it can take hits well on the physical side while other hustle users can't. Though I don't see how this differentiates from strong ground type attackers as mentioned above.
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Coil, of course, but also extreme speed, Glare and Dragon Dance all together give Zygarde its niche.
Come to think of it though, we really should have added either Slack Off or Dragon Rush as a second move for this entry. Is it too late to make that adjustment? :p
 
Adagio said:
Point B makes literally no sense at all, unless Delta Stream activates the Defiant boost on mons, which I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Zapdos doesn't have to click Defog if your opponent does have a defiant mon. Not to mention the only viable Defiant mon in OU is Bisharp, who Zapdos easily beats. If Zapdos is at full health, not even +2 Adamant Life Orb Bisharp OHKOs.
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Entei has Defiant Too now, so that's probably what he's talking about.
 
I rather like the idea of Hustle on Zygarde tbh. I don't think giving it Dragon Rush is all that necessary considering that Outrage exists and that Hustle+Dragon Rush has 60% accuracy before a coil 80% after one, so I think that the current slating for it.

It isn't one of those pokemon that cares hugely about hitting 100% of the time anyway. Sure, Stone Miss accuracy on E-speed sucks ass, but then again I almost never miss Stone Edge so *shrugs*

I really don't think that the Coil set has all the merit here tbh. The raw power of a STAB Hustle Outrage coming off of a base 100 attack stat is insane, and I think that backing it up with Choice Band is probably the best way to go. Remember: its attack stat is only 9 lower than Durant while the BP of its STABs is noticably higher while it has the bulk to take a hit if it misses (unlike Durant) while having 80 BP priority is huge regardless of the shaky accuracy, patching up its crappy speed tier. Coil is good, yes, but the immediate power of the band set seems so enticing that it seems like it'd be better on paper tbh.
 
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gamer boy said:
I rather like the idea of Hustle on Zygarde tbh. I don't think giving it Dragon Rush is all that necessary considering that Outrage exists and that Hustle+Dragon Rush has 60% accuracy before a coil 80% after one, so I think that the current slating for it.

It isn't one of those pokemon that cares hugely about hitting 100% of the time anyway. Sure, Stone Miss accuracy on E-speed sucks ass, but then again I almost never miss Stone Edge so *shrugs*

I really don't think that the Coil set has all the merit here tbh. The raw power of a STAB Hustle Outrage coming off of a base 100 attack stat is insane, and I think that backing it up with Choice Band is probably the best way to go. Remember: its attack stat is only 9 lower than Durant while the BP of its STABs is noticably higher while it has the bulk to take a hit if it misses (unlike Durant) while having 80 BP priority is huge regardless of the shaky accuracy, patching up its crappy speed tier. Coil is good, yes, but the immediate power of the band set seems so enticing that it seems like it'd be better on paper tbh.
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That's quite true. Been a bit since the might of Band Dragonite and its ighty E-speed was a true force, and this with a STAB EQ could help make this a little more fun!....but I aint elaborating more cause I got other jobs to do right now:


VOTING TIME!

Here is our magnificent slate to choose from!

718.gif
+ Hustle (Credit to Jaroda )
073.gif
+ Iron Barbs and Recover (Credit to YouAreOutOfMy5 )
145.gif
+ Delta Stream (Credit to G-Luke )
676.gif
+ Wish (Credit to InfernapeTropius11 )

Honorable Mentions List
- Tornadus + Competitive
- Typhlosion + Drought
- Spiritomb + Dark Aura
- Mega Tyranitar + Sand Force
- Mega Garchomp + Weak Armor
- Electric / Dark Thundurus-T
- Miltank + Ground-type
- Mesprit + Download and Judgment
- Azelf + Fairy-typing (replaces Psychic-typing) and Mold Breaker
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You may notice the list of honorable mentions is little shorter, well by executive decision of council, some options were removed. So if one of your favorites on there was removed, I'm sorry but it was removed for various reasons.

Now in order to vote you must have your stuff like my vote here, a bolded mon, with the bolded honorable mention if you wish to vote for one.

The Greek D word streaming high on Lightning (Zapdos + Delta Stream)
Honorable Mention: Tanks of Ground Beef (87% of tank is made of beef, per state law) (Miltank, now Ground Type)

Happy Voting!
 
Changing vote to Iron Barbs Tentacruel because ppl reminded me that we have like no viable spinners lol.
Honorable Mention: Miltank + Ground-type
 
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