Other OU Type Analysis Project: Week 4: Flying-type

[Sidnv]

Specially defensive Zapdos with HP Ice is a hard counter, if Stealth Rock is not up.

Sylveon takes 41.6% at most from Earth Power and it can use Toxic with Wish+Protect to stall out Landorus.

That's all the counters I could think of that are in the viability thread. Here are some checks not mentioned.

In the absence of Stealth Rock, Specially Defensive Rotom-W is a decent check, with a 20% of being 2HKOd by Focus Miss, while having a 60% chance of OHKOing with Hydro Miss.

In the realm of checks again, AV Azumarill can do a job. It can be 2HKOd by Earth Power though and hates losing its vest.

 

[StairFall]

Dayum. Guess that explains why landorus-I was banned to Ubers last Gen, it completely destroys stall.

It's slightly more complicated than that and had slightly more to do with Keldorus-Tar cores and U-turn, but that's in the past. Nevertheless this discussion really belongs more in the Landorus-I thread, as save for his honestly dismissable flying typing Lando has little to do with analyzing how flying impacts the meta as a type.

 

[Zebstrika]

Landorus is basically the only powerful ground-attack user that doesn't run rock coverage (usually) which tends to make flying types the best counters to them. Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Tornadus-T, Gyarados, Dragonite, and Gliscor can all take hits from Landorus with specially defensive sets, since they won't have to take Earth Power. That's how Landorus ties into Flying type, not because of its own flying typing that it never uses without any good stab move.

 

[Thugly Duckling]

Specially Defensive Skarmory?

No Skarmory can wall Landorus-I. Landorus-I can even power past Skarmory with the Calm Mind set consisting of Earth Power/Sludge Wave/Psychic using Psychic. Check out this calc:

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock [EDIT: 2HKOs on the switch, Skarmory can Whirlwind Landorus away]

2HKOing what could be a check with a resisted move is just absurd.

 

[ssjjynx]

Skarmory has whirlwind, rendering Calm Mind ineffective. I do acknowledge though, that landorus 2HKOs skarm with focus blast.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

I honestly dont know why Salamence is C rank on the viability thread. Its outclassed at every one of its sets, with only the scarf set having a minor niche over Garchomp. Its such a small niche its probably not worth considering. If there is anything that makes it worth using, let it be discussed.

 

[mertyville]

It is difficult to see what Mantine walls since a few of the things it "walls" can go mixed allowing them to 2HKO it after stealth rocks.
And with no reliable recovery and being of course your defogger, it will have to switch in and take the damage before defogging.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I honestly dont know why Salamence is C rank on the viability thread. Its outclassed at every one of its sets, with only the scarf set having a minor niche over Garchomp. Its such a small niche its probably not worth considering. If there is anything that makes it worth using, let it be discussed.

iunno

Fatmence maybe.

 

[ssjjynx]

Intimidate makes it very threatening, as it will usually force physical pokemon to switch, allowing salamence to set up a DD. And DD is another thing it has over Garchomp. Garchomps only method of setting up is SD, leaving it still slower than its common checks like Keldeo, Latias, Latios, etc.
Moxie turns it into a monster, with just one boost to speed with DD it can single handedly tear through entire teams.
In fact, the only reasons Garchomp is used over it is bc its slightly faster, slightly bulkier, and has access to SR. Other than that, Salamence is much more versatile.

 

[LonelyArcanine]

the only reasons Garchomp is used over it is bc its slightly faster, slightly bulkier, and has access to SR. Other than that, Salamence is much more versatile.

I agree, and salamence, while still sharing the 4x Ice weakness, also gets immunity to earthquake, Yes there is stone edge, but the miss chance has saved me several times. Moxie and Intimidate are two of the best abilities out there... On a side note: I haven't looking into the ability capsule, does it have any competitive use?

 

[Clone]

I agree, and salamence, while still sharing the 4x Ice weakness, also gets immunity to earthquake, Yes there is stone edge, but the miss chance has saved me several times. Moxie and Intimidate are two of the best abilities out there... On a side note: I haven't looking into the ability capsule, does it have any competitive use?

Fairies are still a thing and they completely hard wall him.

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 158-187 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 330-390 (99.6 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Even at +1 Sylveon counters Salamence. Meanwhile:

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 307-363 (77.9 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Garchomp 2HKOes when boosted. Salamence sucks. Dont use him. Now lets get back on topic with relevant flying types.

 

[Sidnv]

So what are the most common offensive Flying type threats that actually use Flying STABs. I count Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Gyarados (Bounce kinda exists), Tornadus-T, Mega Aerodactyl, Staraptor. The majority of these pokemon use physical STAB, which is a testament to the fact that Air Slash and the unreliable Hurricane are the only useful special Flying attacks.

I'd like to talk about some of the checks and counters to these pokemon. I don't know much about Tornadus or Mega Aerodactyl and Gyarados only rarely runs a set with Bounce so I'll focus on the other three: Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Staraptor, the infamous Bird Spam core. I'll focus on pokemon that can at least somewhat wall all three of the birds.

Physically Defensive Rotom-W is a hard counter against Talonflame and Mega Pinsir (after it Mega Evolves.) A healthy Rotom can eat priority Brave Birds and Aerialte Returns from CB Talonflame and Mega Pinsir without a problem and can kill Talonflame with Hydro Pump and cripple Pinsir with Will-o-Wisp. Rotom does however have to be careful with Mold Breaker Earthquake from a Pinsir prior to Mega Evolution. Rotom also has the added advantage about not giving a shit about BU Talonflame, which many of the CB Talonflame counters such as Tyranitar hate. Rotom does not deal with Scarf Staraptor very well, because Double Edge easily OHKO's it. Additionally, Staraptor is most often used to punch holes in Talonflame or Pinsir's walls and thus it isn't a good idea to allow it to wear down Rotom.

Physically Defensive Zapdos also does a decent job walling Talonflame (not perfectly since Flare Blitz hurts) and Pinsir. It can even Roost off any damage that it takes switching in (as long as Rocks are not up) and can even deal with Staraptor to an extent because Double Edge only has a small chance to 2HKO. The big problem with using Zapdos as a counter is Stealth Rock prevents it from doing its job at all, and it often needs a decent amount of health to do its job as a defogger, which is its main role on most teams. However, teams that are facing 2 or 3 of Talonflame, Pinsir or Staraptor probably shouldn't want to Defog very often as keeping Stealth Rock on the other side of the field is vital.

Bulky versions of Landorus-T that run Stone Edge are also great switch in's to these Pokemon. Intimidate works wonders as it completely neuters all three birds and Stone Edge easily OHKO's. Additionally, switching in Landorus-T almost guarantees a switch out from the opposing bird and Landorus can use U-Turn to grab the momentum from the opponent. Using Physical Rotom and Landorus-T to form a VoltTurn core gives you a very favorable matchup against BirdSpam.

Skarmory deals well with Pinsir and Staraptor and CB Talonflames that are locked into Brave Bird. Using a Rocky Helmet makes the latter two almost kill themselves when they attack.

Gliscor running a Toxic and Roost and Slowbro running Toxic/Slack Off are checks as they can stall out the birds.

It's possible that I've missed out some pokemon but these are all the checks I can think of at the moment. Looking at this list, Life Orb Latios with Draco Meteor/Psyshock/Thunderbolt/Defog seems like a great partner for a BirdSpam core. It provides invaluable Defog support, deals with Slowbro and Skarmory with Thunderbolt, deals with Rotom-W and Landorus with a combination of any attack + Draco Meteor (or severely crippling them with just Draco Meteor), and OHKO's Gliscor with Draco Meteor. Additionally, it doesn't take much damage back from any of the checks.

 

[ssjjynx]

Togekiss is a decent user of flying spam. Air Slash, in conjunction with a well timed Thunder Wave, can deal damage to the opponent and more often than not prevent them from attacking at the same time. Togekiss became a Fairy type in Gen 6, turning it into a solid counter for Garchomps and Salamences lacking Stone Edge, and making problems for many other Dragon Types or Fighting or Dark types. And if Togekiss starts running low on HP? It uses Roost (a flying type move might I add) to gain a large chunk of its HP back. So Air Slash becomes an extremely spammable move on a Togekiss with T-Wave.

 

[Lolme]

IMO flying type is one of the most menacing forces with its almighty Brave Bird and the dangerous hurricane.

So why was it underrated? well looking back at our pokemon history classes, it's clear that during four Gens, Flying lacked the moves to be "viable" competitively. We have always had good (or at least decent) Flying pokemons such as Dragonite, Zapdos, Gyarados and Salamance, but non of them could really capitalize its wings as EQ immunity < Rock, Ice, Electric weakness and on top of that the best they could do with its typing was Roost. Just looking at the RS Salamance set running HP Flying gives you a good idea of how pathetic Flying move pool was. But it all changed when certain badass looking pokemon arrived (Staraptor) and with it the brand new move Brave Bird.

Even more problematic than the sheer power of Brave Bird is that OU Flying pokemons usually carry either Close Combat or EQ to destroy its wannabe checks, forcing players to use bulky electric types as counters (which contradicts the fast hitting-fragile archetype of Electric types btw)

Speaking of Flying moves, I find it interesting that unlike Fire type it is rarely used as coverage mostly because Game Freak decided to give it a narrow distribution...I mean how can Fly/Bounce be the best Flying move that Aerodactyl and Gyarados get?

 

[WingedKnight]

One of the few things from the OP not yet addressed is Hawlucha's place in the metagame. This Pokemon is an interesting case because it has many of the tools it needs to be a threat, but it comes up just short. In UU, Hawlucha ran rampant before being banished to BL. Its Unburden ability combined with its naturally high speed proved to be very potent indeed. Some sets used Fling (with Dread Plate to handle Ghosts) or similar methods of item disposal, but the Power Herb build was the most common and devastating. Hawlucha has decent Attack that can be boosted with Swords Dance and high-power STABs in High Jump Kick and Acrobatics (once the one-time nuke of Sky Attack has consumed its Power Herb), and Fighting/Flying is excellent coverage. Hawlucha is far from a bad Pokemon, and I think last generation it would've made quite a splash. It's biggest obstacle is that the current OU metagame is very unkind to it. The ever-present Aegislash resists Flying and can turn a whiffed HJK into serious recoil damage. Priority is a real problem that outpaces Hawlucha no matter how fast it boosts up to be, and Talonflame in particular laughs at its sweeping attempts. Plus, Hawlucha's Attack is just a touch too low to handle some of the bulkier walls in standard play. When a few select mons are out of the equation, Hawlucha is quite capable of playing effectively. If you dedicate your team to supporting it, obviously it can perform, but that takes a lot of effort and there are stronger, bulkier mons, sometimes with priority, who can sweep more efficiently. Unless ORAS or subsequent games bring big changes, Hawlucha is probably doomed to wait on the bench in BL. A bit unfortunate, since it's an interesting Pokemon who showed a lot of potential.

 

[Zebstrika]

Talonflame, Aegislash, Mega Pinsir, Unaware Clefable, and Thundurus are all extremely good and common pokemon that make amazing checks to Hawlucha. It's just in an unkind metagame for the most part.

 

[Karxrida]

Stall and HO both carry 2 checks to Hawlucha without even trying, and it's so weak it can't even threaten out Chansey with HJK without being boosted.

252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 488-576 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 488-576 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Chansey will just T-Wave you and be on its merry way.

 

[Corphish]

Defensive flying types are very popular and relevant this gen. As previously discussed mons such as spdef gliscor, zapdos, mandibuzz, dragonite and mantine can wall common special attackers (not all at the same time) such as aegislash, keldeo and landorus. They also provide valuable team support in defog and most have access to roost, their immunity to ground also gives them many opportunities to switch in as well. Defensive flying types are generally relatively fast for walls which allows gliscor and zapdos in particular to outspeed and ko fully invested offensive threats such as breloom and bisharp. It also means mandibuzz, skarmory and gliscor can use a relatively fast taunt to give stall problems.

 

[Tomahawk]

:]

Staraptor is a beast people should know about. It's a fucking nuke, nothing can switch in on it except Skarmory I guess?

Look at standard stall:

Quagsire / Amoonguss / Zard X / Skarmory / Chansey / Gliscor

252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 267-315 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 447-526 (103.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 306-360 (85.2 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 107-126 (32 - 37.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 441-520 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 490-578 (69.6 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 274-324 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And these calcs are only Jolly! Adamant is even more powerful. And keep in mind that this thing dies super fast versus stall though, like if they switch in Chansey on a Brave Bird it's pretty much a 1 for 1 trade. Problem is vs balance it's best, doesn't really exist anymore, and also Aegislash, but with the ban of Deoxys and the ban of Aegislash in a few weeks it will be alot better.