OU's Overrated mons

[Chou Toshio]

Sure it's possible for the enemy to carry multiples, even 2 steel types and 2 flying/levitators if he wants. That does not mean that it's easy for him to make sure he has one of each left, with good health, in the end game when he has only half his team left.

Also what I meant by "zero setup" was that the sets are not constrained to the lure strategy. Mix-mence and CB/CS flygon are very useful sets in their own right. You aren't confining yourself to the Flygon-Cleanup strategy necessarily.

 

[wildfire393]

Sure it's possible for the enemy to carry multiples, even 2 steel types and 2 flying/levitators if he wants. That does not mean that it's easy for him to make sure he has one of each left, with good health, in the end game when he has only half his team left.

Also what I meant by "zero setup" was that the sets are not constrained to the lure strategy. Mix-mence and CB/CS flygon are very useful sets in their own right. You aren't confining yourself to the Flygon-Cleanup strategy necessarily.

I'm going to very much agree with you here. While Flygon may not be the 100% best Pokemon on my team, he is certainly a glue that holds it together. Early game he can come in on Electric/Ground moves (and to a lesser extent, Rock/Fire moves), and deal a relatively heavy hit as he gives me the favorable matchup against their switch-in. Late game, it becomes increasingly likely that the opponent gets stuck with just non-flyers/non-levitators (especially as most flyers get worn down by Rocks) or with no or only low-health Steels, at which point sweeping through the opponent's team is incredibly easy. Plus with good prediction, he can easily eliminate members of the opposing team early game.

 

[Deleted User 29769]

Flygon is okay - far from awful but not

If STABbed ground and dragon moves along with U-turn for scouting ability isn't enough, what more do you need? I agree that Flygon would've needed a move like DD or SD, but his both typing and STAB moves put him somewhat over Salamence for the most part.

Actually Salamence-Flygon make a better team. Early game Salamence breaks walls and runs amuck trying to scare the enemy out of its wits. It has a high chance of luring out the enemy steel type and eliminating/weakening it with fire/ground/fighting moves. Flygon backs it up by absorbing Stone Edge/Thunder Waves and creating better match-ups in general for offensive strategy.

This is actually a pretty good idea, since thunder waves and stone edges tend to run amok nowdays. I'm concerned about how they're going to deal with opposing substitutes though, since the opponent can substitute while you switch onto Flygon, expecting a T-wave or a stone edge.

 

[Chou Toshio]

This is actually a pretty good idea, since thunder waves and stone edges tend to run amok nowdays. I'm concerned about how they're going to deal with opposing substitutes though, since the opponent can substitute while you switch onto Flygon, expecting a T-wave or a stone edge.

Considering substitute is super popular and learnable by everything, is that not a concern whenever you switch? Probably the thing to be more concerned with is considering if it really is t-wave and not ice beam coming in (if we're talking about an enemy like cress/blissey). Well, nothing's perfect after all.

 

[Deleted User 29769]

Considering substitute is super popular and learnable by everything, is that not a concern whenever you switch? Probably the thing to be more concerned with is considering if it really is t-wave and not ice beam coming in (if we're talking about an enemy like cress/blissey). Well, nothing's perfect after all.

If you're risking an ice beam from a Blissey/Cress while expecting a thunder wave, I'm sure there's a safer switch for it. (For example, T-tar and Metagross)

 

[BalancedPower]

I agree with the pokemon in the OP.

aerodactyl should be added to that list, I also deoxyes was great to in sacrificing for SR and screens, but I'd much rather use metagross or azelf then aerodactyl.

On Aerodactyl:
First off he dominates nearly every lead with his speed. Taunting absolutely destroys set-ups for teams, then allowing you to lay another as long as you have a Sash and superior speed (Which you most likely do unless you are facing Fake-Outers)/Weavile. Rock Slide/Earthquake just ruins most anything early as well, with Flinching you can take an early lead.

Cresselia. Ive tried this thing over and over and it hits so hard it isnt even funny. It can counter mixed sweepers like nothing but dies to a CBTar easily. It is total set up bait. Shallow movepool doesn't help much.

Flygon. 120 base power STAB won't make up for 100Base attack. If it had swords dance or dragon dance it would be a top-tier threat. Sadly that didn't happen in platinum.

Cresselia: Biggest disagreement here, Cresselia is a beast tank and actually has some versatility in its movesets. It can go CM which isn't that hard with it's monster defense and Moonlight, and then simply one hit most anything. Thunder Wave cripples most everything. Levitate is just fantastic for Spike users/Earthquakes. Cressalia is a marvelous switch in to Dragons, who would be silly enough to stay with Thunder Wave/Ice Beam in the wings? Cresselia can also set up screens for future uses. It can be used as a Special/Physical wall, it is versatile despite it's small moveset. CB Tar has barely seen that much action, most use DD, and it is important to note, that one of the most dominant types in OU (Dragons) are destroyed by Cressalia. Yes, she has her weaknesses, but you will find difficulties finding a pokemon that doesn't have any. Her strengths far outweigh her weaknesses and they make her a powerhouse.

Flygon: One of the best typings in the game, not to mention a great ability in Levitate, and resistant to some dominant threats. (Wave/Stealth Rock). Like someone said, with Salamence or another Dragon type Salamence, Flygon becomes a beast. STAB Earthquake? STAB Outrage? He is versatile in the sense of items as well with a good choice of Berries, Life Orb, Scarf, Band. U-Turn provides a wonderful scouting tool, not to mention allowing a good switch in. Your last slot can provide a various amount of things, my favorite being Fire Punch for Steel/Ice.

 

[Zepar]

On Aerodactyl:
First off he dominates nearly every lead with his speed. Taunting absolutely destroys set-ups for teams, then allowing you to lay another as long as you have a Sash and superior speed (Which you most likely do unless you are facing Fake-Outers)/Weavile. Rock Slide/Earthquake just ruins most anything early as well, with Flinching you can take an early lead.



Cresselia: Biggest disagreement here, Cresselia is a beast tank and actually has some versatility in its movesets. It can go CM which isn't that hard with it's monster defense and Moonlight, and then simply one hit most anything. Thunder Wave cripples most everything. Levitate is just fantastic for Spike users/Earthquakes. Cressalia is a marvelous switch in to Dragons, who would be silly enough to stay with Thunder Wave/Ice Beam in the wings? Cresselia can also set up screens for future uses. It can be used as a Special/Physical wall, it is versatile despite it's small moveset. CB Tar has barely seen that much action, most use DD, and it is important to note, that one of the most dominant types in OU (Dragons) are destroyed by Cressalia. Yes, she has her weaknesses, but you will find difficulties finding a pokemon that doesn't have any. Her strengths far outweigh her weaknesses and they make her a powerhouse.

Flygon: One of the best typings in the game, not to mention a great ability in Levitate, and resistant to some dominant threats. (Wave/Stealth Rock). Like someone said, with Salamence or another Dragon type Salamence, Flygon becomes a beast. STAB Earthquake? STAB Outrage? He is versatile in the sense of items as well with a good choice of Berries, Life Orb, Scarf, Band. U-Turn provides a wonderful scouting tool, not to mention allowing a good switch in. Your last slot can provide a various amount of things, my favorite being Fire Punch for Steel/Ice.

100 base attack. 3hkos many things that salamence 3hkos.

An example is that it 2hkos vaporeon

 

[Chou Toshio]

I think the trouble with cressy is that tyranitar and scizor are are just so effective against her. Sure, she can stop dragons, but she can't stop them from switching out where as Scizor/Tyranitar will just love any chance to abuse pursuit/U-turn against her.

Cress with reflect/burn-psycho can be alright.

 

[Zepar]

I think the trouble with cressy is that tyranitar and scizor are are just so effective against her. Sure, she can stop dragons, but she can't stop them from switching out where as Scizor/Tyranitar will just love any chance to abuse pursuit/U-turn against her.

Cress with reflect/burn-psycho can be alright.

Adding to your point, and it stops dragons but what else? Infernape? Latias does that better.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Yeah, especially since +Sp.ATK Overheat destroys standard Cress if she isn't in really good health. Also if cress is threatening infernape, you don't have to worry about ice beam. That makes switching out that much easier.

 

[Zepar]

The fact that Modest 252SpA 1+ torrent Empoleon hydro pump does 58.78% - 69.14% and Scizor and Tyranitar scares it more then they scare Blissey with crunch/u-turn/x-scissor or STAB pursuit, So you cant wall either side of the spectrum down to only walling mixed attackers because they don't do enough and even then some carry boosting moves.

 

[Darkartisan]

Ninjask
I can go over this one pretty easily I think.

Ninjask almost always will lose against:

1. Anything with Whirlwind or Roar
2. Anything with a priority attack
3. Anything with Taunt

Phazing is a staple of defense; priority is a staple of offense. Very few teams carry neither.

Additionally:

• Due to the frequence of Stealth Rock, Ninjask can probably only be used once, or twice if you get lucky.
• Ninjask only has one reliable function
• Ninjask will very rarely be able to pass anything but Speed unless the opponent switches, making it even more useless against Stall. With Liechi Berry it puts itself at huge risk of losing to priority or phazing.
• Scizor is the most common Pokemon in OU; Metagross is the most common lead in OU. Both carry Bullet Punch.

phew.

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree. Ninjask leads get past so many teams, and set up pokemon that end up sweeping the opposing team. You see, even Electivire is a potent threat, it's ability is extremely useful (electric immunity?) not to mentio that its stats are well rounded and it can be used for so many things (Dual screens, special, physical)

Ninjask and Electivire definately deserve OU, while Donphan and Dusknoir, yeah...

 

[Zepar]

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree. Ninjask leads get past so many teams, and set up pokemon that end up sweeping the opposing team. You see, even Electivire is a potent threat, it's ability is extremely useful (electric immunity?) not to mentio that its stats are well rounded and it can be used for so many things (Dual screens, special, physical)

Ninjask and Electivire definately deserve OU, while Donphan and Dusknoir, yeah...

Dual screens? Heard of blissey? And hippowdon? Rotom?

 

[kidbuu6]

If STABbed ground and dragon moves along with U-turn for scouting ability isn't enough, what more do you need? I agree that Flygon would've needed a move like DD or SD, but his both typing and STAB moves put him somewhat over Salamence for the most part.


This is actually a pretty good idea, since thunder waves and stone edges tend to run amok nowdays. I'm concerned about how they're going to deal with opposing substitutes though, since the opponent can substitute while you switch onto Flygon, expecting a T-wave or a stone edge.

Good Point. STAB EQ is the other benefit of flygon. But about the salamence and flygon combo....It is sad that They both have the same darn weakness to dragon and ice. but isnt that why they gave them both STAB outrage and fire moves? Yup.Just add steels to the combo and it will work.

 

[animenagai]

E-vire NEEDS that speed boost, and it is also incredibly frail (well rounded my butt). If you bring e-vire in early in the game to break walls and so on, you'll never get a speed boost later in the game. If you need to wait behind your 5 other pokes AND a speed boost late game, well that is just way too situational.

Ninjask? Honestly? You mean the thing that's 4x effective to SR that hates taunt, roar and bullet punch?

Honestly, these two pokes just SCREAM noob. I would love to see how well the ninjask and e-vire user fare against the ones against them, because honestly, I think it would be pretty one sided.

 

[Relictivity]

E-vire NEEDS that speed boost, and it is also incredibly frail (well rounded my butt). If you bring e-vire in early in the game to break walls and so on, you'll never get a speed boost later in the game. If you need to wait behind your 5 other pokes AND a speed boost late game, well that is just way too situational.

Use a water, or flying type (not necessarily Gyarados) as a bait.

Ninjask? Honestly? You mean the thing that's 4x effective to SR that hates taunt, roar and bullet punch?

Everyone knows that Taunt is the big problem with Ninjask. If it could use it, Ninjask would be much more popular. Roar is also another big problem, but Ninjask should have switched the turn you sent your roarer in (unless it knows there is no phazers, it's not safe to SD.). Honestly, with Ninjask, you don't try to take too much, you just try to get in 1 or 2 Speed Boosts, more if you are lucky. And Bullet Punch? It should be behind a sub by the time you switch in Scizor.

Honestly, these two pokes just SCREAM noob. I would love to see how well the ninjask and e-vire user fare against the ones against them, because honestly, I think it would be pretty one sided.

Ninjask is a supporter, or course, 1 on 1, it would be 1-sided.
E-Vire depends on the support of other pokemon, again, 1 on 1, it would be 1-sided.
You don't use these pokemon in these situations.

 

[BalancedPower]

100 base attack. 3hkos many things that salamence 3hkos.

An example is that it 2hkos vaporeon

Salamence gets raped by Thunder Wave/Stone Edge/Stealth Rock
Flygon repels Thunder Wave and resists Edge/Rock
Can Salamence scout? No
But with U-Turn...

 

[Chou Toshio]

Top 10 Offensive pokemon of OU (skipping over zappy, azelf and starmie who are more utility pokes):
-Scizor
-Salamence
-Heatran
-Gyarados
-Metagross 29% carry Thunderpunch
-Infernape 13% carry Thunderpunch
-Tyranitar
-Lucario
-Gengar 65% carry Thunderbolt
-Flygon 8% carry Thunderpunch

These are the top offensive pokemon of the game, and the degrees to which each carries electric type moves of any significance. Note that outside Gengar even those who carry electric attacks carry them very minimally, and probably use them in battle even less. None of them use Thunderbolt/punch for STAB, or even primary coverage. In all likelihood, the vast majority of Offensive teams don't even carry electric attacks, or else very minimum electric attacks-- making electivire pretty useless against them. My experience with offensive teams is electivire is a very minimal threat, as my builds generally don't carry any electric moves.

The defensive teams on the other hand, do make heavy use of thunderwave, and things like Rotom and Zapdos are common. However, Electivire's forte has never been hitting extremely hard. I have little experience with stall teams so I can't really say how they probably perform, but I'm guessing it's not all that scary for them either. Super Effective or no, Electivire's not breaking through things like Celebi, Jirachi or Rotom. :/

 

[chenman333]

Electivire is probably more deadly against balanced teams that do use some more utility things like Rotom and defensive Zapdos, and don't take hits as well as stall, or don't dish out as much damage or keep up pressure like offensive teams. Still, Elecivire does some pretty lol damage to Rotom, who can burn it or just smack it with Shadow Ball. Though Zapdos can't do much back.

 

[jonniewalkereal]

In my opinion Tentacruel can't work in OU with this metagame....

I think Tentacruel is used as Spinner or to set Toxic Spikes

About Spinner, Starmie thanks to recover moves and higher speed is better as spinner

About setting Toxic Spikes, with this metagame is not so important because lots of reason

There are 51 OU pokemon...and leaving out the pokemom with Levitate or Flying type...Toxic spikes hit only 24 pokemon

and in this 24 pokemon there are Breelom Heracross (Guts) and Machamp (Guts?) that aren't so worried about toxic spikes

So now we have 21 pokemon, but Blissey Celebi (they can have Heal Bell or Aromatheraphy too) and Starmie have Natural Cure...Snorlax can have Immunity as ability...and opposite Tentacruel not only are immune but remove them quickly

So now the question is..it is so important use Tentacruel and lost 2 turn to set the Toxic Spikes to hit only 16 OU pokemon??

And in each opposite team you'll find 4-5 pokemon (counting the pokemon that carry Rest too) that are immune to Toxic Spikes

In my opinion...it could work better with a different metagame...but not right now

 

[Zepar]

Salamence gets raped by Thunder Wave/Stone Edge/Stealth Rock
Flygon repels Thunder Wave and resists Edge/Rock
Can Salamence scout? No
But with U-Turn...

So salamence gets paralyzed.How does speed matter when you have ninjask attack? Also Salamence doesnt roll over and die when burned.
Salamence hates stone edge?? I'd rather have a rock weakness then something like ground because of 80%. Name one thing it can do better than salamence or dragonite.

In my opinion Tentacruel can't work in OU with this metagame....

I think Tentacruel is used as Spinner or to set Toxic Spikes

About Spinner, Starmie thanks to recover moves and higher speed is better as spinner

About setting Toxic Spikes, with this metagame is not so important because lots of reason

There are 51 OU pokemon...and leaving out the pokemom with Levitate or Flying type...Toxic spikes hit only 24 pokemon

and in this 24 pokemon there are Breelom Heracross (Guts) and Machamp (Guts?) that aren't so worried about toxic spikes

So now we have 21 pokemon, but Blissey Celebi (they can have Heal Bell or Aromatheraphy too) and Starmie have Natural Cure...Snorlax can have Immunity as ability...and opposite Tentacruel not only are immune but remove them quickly

So now the question is..it is so important use Tentacruel and lost 2 turn to set the Toxic Spikes to hit only 16 OU pokemon??

And in each opposite team you'll find 4-5 pokemon (counting the pokemon that carry Rest too) that are immune to Toxic Spikes

In my opinion...it could work better with a different metagame...but not right now

I would only say to use it on a team with empoleon or a stall team. It isnt horrible.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Johnnie-- were you also taking into account steel types who are also immune to poison?

 

[animenagai]

In my opinion Tentacruel can't work in OU with this metagame....

That's a damn dgood case, and I do agree that most good teams pretty much laugh at toxic spikes. Triple dragon triple steel? Yeah, completely immune to toxic spikes. I would only really use tenta in a stall team, as many of those pokes ARE toxic spikes weak, or if I made my team to sweep with a certain toxic spikes weak poke.

 

[jonniewalkereal]

@Johnnie-- were you also taking into account steel types who are also immune to poison?

Yes I did ChouToshio...I obviously were spoken only about OU pokemon

 

[chenman333]

So salamence gets paralyzed.How does speed matter when you have ninjask attack? Also Salamence doesnt roll over and die when burned.
Salamence hates stone edge?? I'd rather have a rock weakness then something like ground because of 80%. Name one thing it can do better than salamence or dragonite.

As I and others have already said, Flygon is the champion transition pokemon. With his excellent typing, resist to SR, immunity to spikes and tspikes, immunity to SS, he can come in and out with ease and U Turn to counters constantly. For offensive teams, he is an excellent switch in to pokemon that could otherwise ruin your momentum, like Celebi or defensive Zapdos who threatens with paralysis, and then he can U Turn to keep the upper hand.

Salamence and Dragonite are absolutely awful with choice scarf in particular, because those SR weaks and the relative lack of power really hurt them, forcing them to switch out more often instead of being able to kill with brute force.

And Salamence does get his ass wrecked when he is paralyzed. Salamence's speed is everything when he is trying to wall break or sweep, because he is otherwise very fragile; once paralyzed, there are a lot more pokemon that can do a number to him.

And no. 1, Flygon hits harder than Ninjask, and no. 2, has STAB on a 120 bp and 100 bp attack, gets more 100 bp attacks like Stone Edge, and gets U Turn to boot. Definitely no Ninjask you are facing. When burned, Flygon may lose his revenge killing capabilities, but at least he still makes a good switch in to a variety of things and U Turn still has the same effect.

Of course Salamence hates rock; he has to take a quarter of his health on every switch in. Flygon doesn't have a weakness to ground either, so idk why you are sticking that in.