OverUsed General Discussion (ORAS Edition)

[TaBuu]

Shoutouts to Subject 18 for leading out the older OU General Discussion Thread

With the release of Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, the competitive Pokémon scene has been given a whole new playing field. With twenty more Mega Evolutions available and older Pokémon gaining access to new moves, the OU metagame is not the same as the previous XY OU metagame. That being said, it is time for a new discussion thread to be opened up so that Smogon's experienced players can share their opinions and knowledge on the new metagame. My hopes for this thread is that the Victory Road sub-forum can drive forward and be a guide for the newer and less experienced players on Smogon.

In order to provide direction and stimulus for discussion on this thread, the OP will have a Question of the Week, posted regularly. Users are not forced to follow the Question of the Week and are completely free to drive the discussion in a different yet appropriate direction and topic. The Question of the Week is nothing more than a friendly guide and discussion stimulator should activity begin to wane in the thread. Users who provide insightful responses to the Question of the Week will have their posts archived in the OP. This way, newer players who might have certain questions can simply refer themselves to the OP and (hopefully) find the answer that they were looking for!​

With the Suspect Ladder currently available, what trends have you noticed? Which Pokemon do you foresee rising in usage should Greninja get banned from OU?

Archive soon to come ...​

 

[Enki]

Charizard X.

Now Char x MIGHT seem outclassed by Mega Altaria and Mega Salamence (which is banned atm so yeah) and has troubles against Mega Slowbro but Zard x has something that makes him stand apart.
- First of, what I like to call "mega sheaningans":
Zard is the only OU mega 'mon that has two great Mega Evolutions with complete different uses and also different checks, this is vital for him, many times it allows him to gain an easy Dragon Dance this way
- Immune to Burn:
Now this might seem minor, but in a metagame where MSableye and Heatran are everywhere having a sweeper who has no troubles against burns is valuable.
-Versatility:
We know Charizard for being a common set up sweeper, but Charizard X has so many good sets, the common DD+3 Attacks, the Tailwind+SD one, a better BW1 Double Dance Terrakion (smash defensive teams with sd, kill offensive teams with tailwind concept) DD+Roost, sometimes even with a Jolly Nature in order to surpass and kill Scarf Lantherian, the most used pokemon in ORAS atm, sdefdd which is a monstrous win condition, or even a Defensive set used on Stall or Balanced teams in order to gain offensive presence, a way to deal against Sableye and Mew (two pokemon that are very problematic for stall teams, for example) and also acting as a glue, thanks to a great type, and great (invested) defenses.
All in all, I still see Mega Charizard X as a solid S Rank, even though he'll have more competition for the mega slot here in ORAS than XY.

 

[Clone]

Which XY Megas are still relevant in OU?

The first one that comes to mind is Mega Gardevoir. Despite stuff competition for a mega slot on an offensive team, I've found that Mega Gardevoir is still well worth the slot.

First and foremost, she has an excellent offensive typing and a high SAtk to back it up, along with access to STAB Hyper Voice that allows her to rip holes into both offensive and defensive teams alike. Along with Psyshock and Focus Blast, she gets great neutral type coverage against her normal checks.

Sound familiar? Yes? That's because mega Gardevoir in ORAS plays a lot like how she played in XY. Despite the massive speed creep and the introduction of new checks like Gunk Shot Greninja (meaning Gardevoir can no longer switch into the frog) and Mega Metagross, as well as an increase in the usage of offense, Mega Gardevoir still stands out as a top tier threat. For one, she shits on the new face of stall, Mega Sableye. When paired with something to handle Jirachi, such as Heatran, Mega Gardevoir is able to break down common stall cores like nobody's business, which easily allows for a sweeper like SD Garchomp to clean up late game. Secondly, she checks many of the new megas, such as Mega Sceptile, Mega Sableye, Mega Gallade (bar poison jab lmao), and Mega Altaria to just name a few. This actually bolsters her performance against offense, as she now has more switch in opportunities than she did before, which was her main problem against offense. Finally, she still has the raw power and movepool to break down balance cores like she did in XY. Even with the rise in usage of Ferrothorn, Heatran, and even Jirachi, Mega Gardevoir still has the capability of taking OU the former two with focus blast, though the latter is admittedly a problem. Regardless, Ferrothorn and Heatran are used as catch all checks to many of the top threats in OU, so being able to lure them in and take them out is a big pro imo.

Even so, Gardevoir still has issues. Mega Metagross is one of the most used and most common megas, and he gets a free switch into Gardevoir every time. Couples with the influx of Bisharp and priority spam, Gardevoir still has issues with offense if it isn't running one of the new megas I mentioned above. Finally, the overall speed creep has really hit her hard when it comes to hyper offense, as her previously average speed has turned into a liability when scarf offense and megas like Beedrill, Lopunny, Metagross, and Aerodactyl are running around everywhere.

Regardless, Mega Gardevoir has just as much, if not more viability in ORAS than she did in XY, and is still a massive threat that needs to be prepared for.

Sorry if this post was all over the place, but I just wanted to share my thoughts ^^

 

[TaBuu]

Which of the new Mega Evolutions are relevant in OU?

Despite all the new Mega Evolutions that were introduced in Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, Lopunny's Mega Evolution is able to compete in the OU metagame and hold its own in the early phases of the meta. Mega Lopunny gains quite a number of favorable buffs, namely stat boosts, Scrappy and a secondary typing in Fighting. Lopunny's base 136 Attack stat is nothing to scoff at as it actually possesses more raw power than Excadrill and Dragonite while its base 135 Speed stat places it above the likes of Greninja while being able to tie with Mega Manectric. For an offensive Pokemon, Mega Lopunny possesses decent bulk (65/94/96) which allows it to utilize its resistances fairly well and also tank a neutral hit here and there from certain Pokemon. But the stat boosts that Lopunny received from its Mega form isn't even the real icing on the cake. With a new secondary typing in Fighting and access to the coveted High Jump Kick, Mega Lopunny obtains perfect coverage thanks to Scrappy. Ultimately, this surmounts to the fact that Mega Lopunny is a huge threat to offensive teams because of her unresisted coverage and high Attack and Speed stat.
However, Mega Lopunny's gifts do not end there. Like many Normal-type Pokemon, Lopunny is granted the gift of diversity. From moves like Healing Wish to Baton Pass, it's never too safe to assume all four moves on a Mega Lopunny. For example the Fake Out with Ice Punch variants are an absolute bane to offensive teams while Substitute variants give balanced teams problems. Thunder Wave will cripple common offensive checks such as Talonflame while Healing Bell provides invaluable cleric support for the entire team. The best thing about all this is that Mega Lopunny has the freedom to switch up moves because only Return and High Jump Kick are 100% mandatory for its offensive pressure to be viable.
It's hard to tell just where exactly Mega Lopunny will be two, three months down the line but as I see it now and from personal usage, Mega Lopunny has the right tools to cement itself in the OU metagame.

 

[TaBuu]

The OP has been updated with a new topic! Hopefully we can get more posts this time around~

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

There seem to be quite a lot of changes in the meta from my experience on the suspect ladder, the main mons I am noticing are gengar and clefable. While gengar is notably different than greninja his special attacking capabilities are flourishing in this balance heavy meta. I mean every time I look at a team now I either see a gengar or see a huge gengar weakness, his counters are very limited and he has a respectable speed tier, great coverage with his stabs+focus blast, I really expect to continue to see his usage rise. And the other is clefable, which also thrives verse balance teams and is a great win condition against all styles of play, there really arent too many things that threaten the cm set, except for heatran(which is p easily lured/dealth with ), taunters, trick users, fast steels like scizor excadrill bisharp, I mean this may seem like a lot but in practice you usually will only see one threat to clefable on any given team and you can play to that accordingly. Not to mention that clefable is not just there to sweep through teams, but it also provides nice synergy with its bulk + fairy type that is pretty essential for balance teams. No need for this to get any longer than it needs to be so yeah my answer is gengar and clefable.

 

[Gary]

I'm still astounded that this subforum exists despite the fact that it's practically dead and the same people are posting in it. Anyways....

With the Suspect Ladder currently available, what trends have you noticed? Which Pokemon do you foresee rising in usage should Greninja get banned from OU?

To best honest, pretty much everything seems to have gotten better lol. Like okay, obviously certain Pokemon such as Tentacruel and Empoleon which were frequently used as somewhat solid Greninja checks have lost viability, although the latter is still a solid check to many other things, I've noticed that the meta itself just seems a lot less stressful to play. I can't really describe it in words really, you just have to play it and see for yourself. Greninja was so pressuring for practically every archetype, mainly balanced and some offensive teams, and now that it's no longer a problem on the suspect ladder it just takes a lot of bullshit mind games and need of a random Choice Scarfer to beat it. Best way to describe it in simplest terms, is that the meta has more room to breathe.

Now when it comes to specific metagame trends, balance is definitely something I'm seeing a LOT more frequently. Yea it's the ladder and the ladder is fucking retarded and cancerous, but hey it seems to be working for a lot of people and many of the Pokemon that were raped by Greninja, such as Chesnaught, Slowbro, Clefable, and Heatran just got a whole lot better. I already posted about Chesnaught in the regular meta discussion thread, so I wont go too much into detail on that, but without Ninja being around it can find itself fitting more comfortably on balanced teams. Clefable is better than ever too, although there's still shit like Mega Gross, Mega Scizor, and Bisharp to watch out for. Still, one less thing that can force it out is always great for it, and it's also a staple on balance anyway.

Keldeo is also seeing more usage than before, which shouldn't come as too much of a surprise. Although in ORAS it had the niche of being a semi-reliable check to Ninja seeing as how no one really ran Extrasensory anymore, and it was another reason to use Scarf, Keldeo is probably the closest thing to Greninja that OU has. Yeah there's Starmie which is faster and has MUCH more coverage, but unlike Keldeo it fails to break through a LOT of Pokemon, such as Chansey, KyuB, and Ferro, as well as losing to many other things such as Scarf Tar, Bisharp, and Mega Scizor to an extent. Starmie also suffers from actual 4MSS, which Greninja didn't. Yeah Greninja couldn't cover every single threat in the metagame with one moveset, but unlike Starmie it covers so much of the meta already that everything that isn't covered by its 4 moves, can be easily dealt with by a teammate, or are already damage heavily by its other moves anyway (see Ferrothorn). While Keldeo lacks coverage, it already hits most of the meta hard enough anyway with Water+Fighting. Life Orb is really good right now, while Specs still sees plenty of usage. CM Keldeo also seems to be used a lot for some reason, I guess because it can boost alongside Mega Sabelye or something, I don't know it doesn't seem too reliable. Solid though.

 

[daftmau5]

With the Suspect Ladder currently available, what trends have you noticed? Which Pokemon do you foresee rising in usage should Greninja get banned from OU?

Just adding onto what Gary has mentioned above in terms of balance becoming much more common, Life Orb Mixed Tornadus-T is a completely unprepared for monster which just breaks apart common balance cores due to its phenomenal coverage and is no slouch vs offense due to its excellent speed tier which puts it way above the crowded 108-110 area and additionally getting the jump on Starmie, Scarf Magneton and Scarf Ttar.

I used the Heat Wave variant of the below set for 52 games on the Suspect Ladder and it almost single handedly earned me reqs because it actually has very little reliable checks outside of things such as Thundurus-i, Mega Manectric and Rotom-W or being revenge killed.

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- U-turn/Heat Wave/Taunt

LO Hurricane (though slightly unreliable outside of rain) gives Torn-t a way to smash through popular defensive mons such as Mega Sableye, Celebi, Clefable, Mega Venu, Spdf Gliscor, Chesnaught and Slowbro while offensive mons in general take a clean 70-80% if they don't resist it.

Knock Off helps Torn-T stallbreak as it catches pokemon such as Chansey (which is KO'd by Knock Off followed by Superpower) as well as catching Spdf Heatran to bring it into Superpower range (it's a roll). Additionally, Knock Off takes out Starmie and Gengar while KO-ing Latios after rocks and 1 round of LO recoil. In general, no mon really appreciates having their item removed, especially if a scarf user such as Lan-T/Kyub decides to be cute and switch in predicting a U-turn out. Superpower is also advisable over Focus Blast since Hurricane + Focus Blast is just asking for trouble, especially outside of rain.

The last slot either buys you momentum (U-turn), helps you stallbreak (Taunt) or transforms Torn-T into a fast all out attacker with impeccable coverage which is incredibly hard to stop in practice:

• 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 221-263 (73.4 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 369-437 (104.8 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 348-411 (101.1 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 320-377 (95.8 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

While Torn-T's base 100 Atk and base 110 Spa don't look too appealing, the high base power of Hurricane, Superpower, Knock Off and Heat Wave when combined with a Life Orb end up offsetting Torn-T's relatively low offensive stats which means in reality, it hits surprisingly hard.

Additionally, Regenerator makes Tornadus-T self supporting so you can slap it onto a team without worrying about hazard control and because of its excellent mix of power, speed and coverage it's almost guaranteed to go for 1 for 1 at worst vs faster teams. Despite being weak to SR, it still gains HP when switching into rocks and if rocks are off the field you recover basically 3 rounds of LO recoil which is pretty neat.

In short, LO Tornadus-T completely punishes slower teams and a lot of the balance cores popping up while still being well equipped to deal with faster teams due to its awesome Greninja-esque speed tier. That's right, it has 1 less base speed than Greninja. I can really see this rising in usage should Greninja be banned from OU.

 

[Mix]

With the Suspect Ladder currently available, what trends have you noticed? Which Pokemon do you foresee rising in usage should Greninja get banned from OU?

Archive soon to come ...​

After getting reqs for the suspect of Greninja, I'm seeing less and less of Scarf Keldeo, which was used as a sort of check.
Keldeo could replace Greninja in a way, maybe a little less strong without his speed, gunk shot, and spikes that help to get pressure to other teams; but he still has Secret Sword coupled with Hydro Pump and Scald. The problem, however, is the Choice Item, because with that became more playable for the stall/semistall.

Keldeo-Resolute (Keldeo-R) @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SDef
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ghost]/Icy Wind/Scald

Taunt might seem strange on Keldeo but it allows him to stop some defensive threats and also allows him to keep up pressure against defensive teams. For example, Rest Slowbro is completely stopped by Taunt; Rain Dance + Tail Glow Manaphy can't recover health; and Mew can't use Recover/Roost after a Hydro Pump. Orb Keldeo's problem is he cannot spam free Scald, and Hydro Pump sometimes misses causing you some problems, but Hydro Pump retains fantastic firepower, and can 2HKO 96 S.Def Calm Clefable.
Great partners for Keldeo can be Scarf Lantherian, having a great synergy with Keldeo while also being helpful thanks to Intimidate, coverage and Scarf to force switches, allowing free entry for Keldeo.
Another good partner is Pursuit Mega-Metagross because he can trap Latwins and help the Keldeo sweep.
Some times Sableye switches into Secret Sword to be able to use Recover, and you can use Hydro Pump to scrub it.
I mostly prefer HP Ghost for hit Mega-Slowbro, Latwins and Starmie on the switch but Icy Wind can be a great option to beat Latwins on the switch, Scald can also be good if you don't want to rely on Hydro's accuracy.