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Perhaps the greatest RMT ever (peaked #2 on Showdown)

Hi, I didn't really want to rate this because this isn't a team that I really like. No offense I'm more talking about the play style and not the team in itself since it is obviously a solid team.
However, like Neliel I find it a little too passiv for my liking. But well it's not up to me to decide which play style you'll adopt isn't it !

So why am I here ?

In fact while I was playing with my team for the Outsider challenge (that is to say a team under 25% usage). I did meet this one and in the end I won for a simple reason.
My team was a HO focused on the physical side, and for a team like yours based on the "walling", you really rely way too much on Landorus-T.

Why ?

First, because he's your only physical wall. But that's not the only thing he needs to do !
Indeed he also has to put Rocks. In fact the pressure on his shoulders is just huge and killing this Landorus-T was the breaking point that made me win with a "gimmick" team.

Maybe I'd not have won against the one who created the team, but this experience shows me some weaknesses :

- Sharpedo

Yes the underplayed shark. He can't be revenged by Latios and kills it, he kills Heatran with Earthquake, he weaken Landorus-T even at -1 with Waterfall (it's a 2HKO), he kills Celebi, he 2HKO Rotom-W, he kills Gengar and outspeed it !
My team being a chain of sweepers, this wasn't too hard to weaken Rotom-W and Landorus-T, since they are your two pivots ! and they are also your most valuable defensive pokemons in a lot of situations (considering their good synergy).


My Sharpedo was paired with Breloom and Weavile, let's see what your team can do against them :

First Weavile, you got only Landorus-T as physical wall, and you may know that Weavile can kill it even at -1 with SR damage. Thus, you're in a very tough situation here, because Celebi is killed, Latias is highly threatened by an Ice Shard (if Weavile is at -1 it's "ok" but you lock yourself in Draco Meteor (just saying, Draco Meteor doesn't 0HKO a Weavile with no prior damage 252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 0HP/32SpDef Weavile (Neutral): 90% - 106% (253 - 298 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 37% chance to OHKO.) so in fact he can take a hit and kamikaze with Ice Punch to kill the Latios, Heatran is killed by Low Kick with SR damages, Rotom-W takes a ton from Night Slash, and Gengar is slower and gets killed by a Dark Stab.

But these threats are pretty minor and unplayed, this is true.
However Breloom can act like a good wallbreaker here too. Your team HATES having someone sleeping. You will tell me "who cares, I got Celebi for that" and while I agree, the point is that your Celebi is a SpD version and it can seem strange but you CANT stay on a Breloom with your Celebi, at +2 Bullet Seed can 0HKO you if it hits 5 times. So you get the picture, if you sleep three turns, no matter which version of Breloom it is, you're in a tough situation (I use Adamant Breloom because there is no reason for me to use Jolly but whatever, even with Jolly Breloom isn't an easy threat).
And sadly, nothing on your team can switch on a Breloom freely, so you can only let a pokemon take the Spore, then switch back to Celebi to do Aromatherapy (taking damages in the process and being pretty weak to any Pursuiter).
Latias can't really come on Breloom because of Low Sweep and Bullet Seed dealing a ton by the way, and Gengar gets totally doomed by Bullet Seed, even with the resistance.



Well I could go on telling mere weaknesses but I rather improve the team as much as I can.


If I get the logic, you paired four of the most used walls (a Specially based FGW core and a Landorus supposed to patch all the weaknesses.. and to put rocks) with a Trick Latios and Disable Gar.
This is a solid idea.


Here are my opinions, and my changes :

I'd change Celebi to a Physically based set. Because the threats that Celebi seems to take are not worthing the sacrifice on the physical side.

Jolteon ? he can't get through Rotom-W, and anyways, even a physically based Celebi can take him, same goes for Starmie.
Sharpedo can't 0HKO you and does around 65%, at full health you can take a Crunch and Giga Drain him for the kill.


I'm also worried about the thing that your team doesn't seem strong enough to take a big HO team, and to deal with a heavy Stall team. But you kinda always have a way to make it, it will just be hard.
I don't feel like changing any of your pokemons, but lower the pressure onto Landorus-T and put SR on Heatran (over Roar in my opinion). And then give Landorus-T Rest (no need the berry, in fact you rely so much on intimidate, that Rest could be a good last resort solution).

I would also switch Surf to HP Fire on Latios. It would not save you anyway against Tyranitar, so I'd rather get the extra coverage.


Just for information, my team was like :

Boom Lead Azelf / Adamant Sharpedo / Adamant Low Sweep Breloom / LO Weavile / RP Landorus / Final Gambit Staraptor

Imagine if Staraptor can Final Gambit on Landorus-T x)

TL;DR :
Celebi => Physically based spread
Latios => HP Fire>Surf
Put SR on Heatran
 
A physically defensive Starmie does nothing to help his weakness to physical mons like bandtar and lo mamo etc. it only makes him weaker to rain spam teams seeing as hydropumps will do too much to celebi and rotom wash needs as much Hp as possible for hurricanes which still do 30+%. Stealth rocks over roar means that cm latias and rain volc can eventually outstall you. The sweepers you mentioned are very underused and shouldn't really be that big of an issue, bar loom. For loom he could intimidate w lando, take spore and go to cele for the heal bell. I don't see why any +2 breloom would stay in on celebi.
There is indeed a dark weakness and a lack of rock resistance to relieve Lando's pressure, which is why I thought a wall breaking Keldeo would help.
 
Got the PM.

I like this team, like Luvdic like this team :) Your pretty weak to Mamoswine and Dugtrio, since Heatran is super important on this team (that and Celebi). I would try shed shell on Heatran since DuggySun or DuggyGene (on PO) is very threatening.

I'm going to second the RP Lando-T partner and drop a move on heatran for SR since the extra offense really helps.

Don't have much more to say other than Mamo is kinda bitchy (as CTC pointed out) and if you wanted you could try a timid natured Rotom-W with enough speed to hit 290, but you would be losing a huge amount of bulk so you would have to test that out and see if you miss the extra bulk or not (since often the move rest is pretty solid in itself).

GL!
 
@Remedy, eh, most of the sweepers you mentioned are never seen in the OU metagame (or rarely, but still). However, that doesn't mean I shouldn't be prepared for them, it just means I should be more prepared for more popular threats, which I believe I am. I wouldn't say I'm weak to Breloom at all, as I have Latios, which is perhaps the best revenge killer to Breloom, which takes +2 Mach Punch fairly well (considering its a sweeper vs. sweeper). And honestly, I really don't mind if Breloom puts something like Gengar or Landorus-T to sleep, because I always seem to find a free turn to heal it off.

I do agree with you that there is a lot of pressure on Landorus-T, so I will try out the physically def spread, (as it also allows me another pretty good check to Terrakion) and I will try to move SR onto Heatran. Thanks for taking your time with such a detailed rate.

@Shurtugal, hey man, thanks for the rate. I actually did run Shed Shell Heatran during the time of Lavos' famous sun team, but the usage stats tell me its not very popular anymore, so I prefer leftovers because its better for every other team. Mamoswine is a bitch, but I've played enough to play around it without it doing too much damage. I won't be running a Timid nature on Rotom, as I feel it lacks bulk already, lol.

Thanks again for the rate man.
 
Hey!

I got your PM, so I decided to stop by and give you a rate. Obviously it's a solid, tested team already, so congratulations on that. There are two things that really pop out at me, but it might just be my playstyle preferences. The first thing I'm worried about is Scarf Latios. I've never been a huge fan since it's just not powerful enough. Aside from that, the real problem is that you could easily get trapped by Tyranitar. Ideally you minimize Latios use in the early game, but one errant setup Pokemon + Tyranitar could cause you a lot of trouble. The second issue, albeit not as big, is that Deoxys-D is going to be a pain. You really don't have anything to stop it from getting Stealth Rock, and it could easily switch out of Gengar to come back later in the match.

One possible solution for the Latios issue is Scarf Terrakion. You've got a lot of Rain coverage in Celebi and Rotom-w already, so the Water weakness shouldn't be an issue. Terrakion still outspeeds everything you mentioned as a big deal in your Latios run down except for Scarf Keldeo, which is a Speed tie. Again, you've got a lot of appropriate walls for Keldeo. Terrakion is really good vs. Sun teams too, just watch out for Dugtrio. If SR is down, it shouldn't be an issue. Biggest concern I'd have if you switched is being able to Trick certain Pokemon. If you are paranoid of last chance set up Pokemon (like Reuniclus or something), you could always try Perish Song on Celebi instead of Heal Bell.

I looked through some of the rates in this thread earlier too, and I liked Ala's mention that your team is "too defensive." I kind of get that feeling too. It's as if sometimes you're stalling without making a lot of progress in the process. It's probably because you only have Stealth Rock for hazard damage, I guess. Anyway, I have a slightly different take on the fix. You could move Stealth Rock to Celebi. I honestly don't see the need for Heal Bell aside from waking Rotom-w up more than once. Then make Landorus-t the bulky Double Dance set. It's 252 Atk / 180 Spe / 96 Hp with an Adamant nature and Leftovers. I really like Leftovers for the ability to have a lasting impact on the match. It will really pressure Tyranitar / Sand Teams and usually straight up beats Sun teams. You've got a ton of Rain coverage, so it feels like a really solid idea to me.

I can't think of any great ideas for combatting Deoxy-D leads. I suppose Gengar will be enough. Anything I think of will only make your team worse, and I can't justify making your team worse against everything that isn't a Deo-d team.

Good luck!
 
Well... You can criticize me for not talking about used sweepers, my point wasn't about "Sharpedo sweeps you", but "this combination of moves sweeps you".
Someone saying "shh these sweepers don't matter" is really missing the point, and in my opinion should take more time to read and write comments.

So, to make it clearer.
I think there are too many pokemons in your team weak to Dark moves, and the issue, is that all these pokemons are your "speed machines".
Every single pokemon in your team supposed to be faster than the enemy, is weak to a dark move.

"The sweepers you mentioned are very underused and shouldn't really be that big of an issue, bar loom. For loom he could intimidate w lando, take spore and go to cele for the heal bell. I don't see why any +2 breloom would stay in on celebi."

So, yes again, this is what I said, but the conclusions you get from it are pretty limited.
Obviously Breloom alone is not an issue, but you know, there will be 6 pokemons against you, given the nature of the team (stall, slow games), people will understand sooner or later that Celebi is the Heal Beller. So now, if Breloom is paired with a Pursuiter, this will be pretty hard for you. You have two choices, you can switch your Celebi in and risk being trapped, or if you don't want this to happen, your Landorus-T will stay sleeping.

For the changes, if they are not satisfying you, here is what I would have done. I didn't really want to change a good team like that but well..

I would go for Physically defensive (with a lil investment in SpD) Amoonguss over Celebi.

Why ?

This makes your team less weak to Dark moves, it covers the same threats as Celebi in fact, and you win Spore and Regenerator. I'm sure this fills perfectly to this type of teams where you switch a lot between the bulky pokemons.

But you lose Heal Bell.

I don't think this is so important, even a sleeping wall can wall. For the poison, Rest being on Rotom-W (and on Landorus-T if you change the set) : there is only Latias that can be poisoned, which is okay I guess.

And for the "you'll be weaker to HPump spam", I don't see why, Specs Toed is covered by Rotom-w and anyway Amoonguss and Latios can take decently any water hit.
For instance Scarf Keldeo can't 2HKO Physically defensive Amoonguss under Rain with HPump. You have a good chance to live 2 Specs HPump from Keldeo if your Amoonguss was full life with some investment in SpD.
For Politoed Specs, Amoonguss can switch in, take 55%, recover from Black Sludge, and switch out to Rotom-W getting HP back with Regenerator. And with a little investment in SpD, you can avoid the 2HKO from this type of Politoed.

Like Celebi, Amoonguss can recover with Giga Drain and he can reset stats with Clear Smog, which could mitigate the loss of Roar on Heatran (I don't think CM Latias is a threat when you have Gengar and Latios, and Rain Volcarona is outstalled by Toxic Heatran, that being said, even Latias is, because the most played version doesn't have Refresh or Substitute).
And you got Spore and Stun Spore. Paralysis making Gengar's life really easier, and turning your relatively slow team into a more threatening one.

Terrakion SubSalac or Scarf can't 2HKO Amoonguss, and like Celebi you can Giga Drain them (without being *4 weak to X-Scissor, you take only 23% from it, while Celebi can be 0HKO by this move from Scarf Terrakion).

Amoonguss is also a better check for Tyranitar, letting you scout the set and the CB without fearing anything given the Regenator passiv healing, then you can switch to an appriopriated resistance.


Here is the set, the 116 SpD to limit the possibility of being 2HKO by SpecsToed, while not being 2HKO by Scarf Keldeo HPump under Rain. Moreover with 140 Def, you take 45% max roll from Terrakion Jolly Stone Edge. That's on average 83% from Stone Edge at +2, and you take 53% from him with Giga Drain, so like Celebi, it's a 2HKO. Since he can't 0HKO at +2, he will be afraid of possible Spore/StunSpore/ClearSmog, which is really interesting for you.

amoonguss.png

Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Regenerator
Bold Nature
252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Stun Spore
- Spore


I'm not saying this change is simple and better on every side, maybe it will make the team shift a little, but I'm pretty sure that Amoonguss can shine here because he provides you with many things you could need.
 
Hey undisputed, I'm not sure how you done it, but you really know how I use my Latios which is pretty amazing imo. Anyway, thank you so much for the rate :) Terrakion was on this team before, and it really did do well, so I'm guessing the Scarf set could do very well too, as it can take on the Dark types that Remedy says I am weak to. Terrakion will also take less pressure off of Landorus-T as Terrakion can switch into Tyranitar very well.

Deoxys-D is very hard to deal with, but for some odd reason people leave in their Deoxys-D on my Gengar, which 2HKO's it.

@Remedy, I did think your previous post was vaild, so I'm sorry if I offended you. That Ammongus set seems very cool, and I will definitely try it.

And since this RMT is most likely going to get less popular and fewer rates, I just want to say thank you to everyone who rated this team and gave it a luvdisc. I will try every suggestion that I think is valid.

Thanks guys!
 
This team looks fantastic. I've been using a couple cores in this on a few of my own, especially that Celebi. One thing though is Heatran EVs; 244 HP brings you to 384 HP, which I regretfully inform you is not the "magic number" you think it is. "Leftovers numbers" are (a number divisible by 16)+1. 384 is divisible by 16, so the corresponding Leftovers number is 385, or 248 HP EVs.

That's literally the only thing I have to improve this team at this time. I've used all the members you've got in this now (at different times and on different teams of course) and love them all. Heal Bell is a lifesaver on Celebi too from my testing; Latias hated residual burn damage from eating Scalds, so I would personally keep that.
 
Hey thanks Seth, I'm glad you like the team :) I'm not too good with HP numbers, and I think I got the EV set off of a friend, so I didn't bother testing, so thanks for pointing that out. :]
 
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