Philosophy

Go Nietzsche!

I think the fundamental mistake made a lot of the time is relating feeling and emotion. Feeling takes interpretation whereas emotion is an instinctual act. Whether it evolved with intention or as an accident is still debatable. Emotion does not often make for better desicions, nor does it make for rationality, which are both tools for survival. I really cannot find why emotion serves a purpose, for one can live without emotion and still be alive, albeit robotic.
 
Emotion does serve a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't have developed.

I'm sure human society would break down completely if emotion suddenly disappeared from everyone. For such social and advanced creatures as us, it seems like emotion is important for holding the community together.

If there were no emotion, nobody would care about killing others. Nobody would care about others getting killed. People might not care about dying, themselves. It just doesn't seem like a very helpful situation for our species as far as survival is concerned.
 
Go Nietzsche!

Whether [emotion] evolved with intention or as an accident is still debatabled.
I think you misunderstand the definition of "evolution." Nothing evolved "with intention." Every characteristic of every species on the planet is the result of an accidental genetic mutation. If the mutation proved to be useless or even harmful, then the individual(s) that carried the trait died off without passing it on to offspring. Mutations that were beneficial were passed on to the next generation.
Judging by the fact that most humans experience emotions, it must be concluded that the advent of emotions was indeed an "accident," but one that served a purpose. Otherwise, emotions would have been obliterated from the gene pool via natural selection.
 
Well that could be true. But I find it to share a similarity to color blindness. It does no real harm to diable survival, but it does no good either, but because it does not inhibit survival it is passed down. Or it is just a part of our advanced intellect like something akin to willpower, etc. ? However, I think they do not benefit or detriment society, as they are not needed to live as is oxygen or water. One could live without them at all, but whether they help survival as a whole is completely unknowable. Or they may be a tool to aid in a social structure for the species? Who knows, either way it is not significant, because emotions seems to be here to stay.

New question:

What is time? What is it relevant to? What does it do? Has time really passed while this question was typed?
 
go philosophy! 3rd year philosophy major baby! be careful with the science talk guys, it can often lead you astray from what forgiveness is ETHICALLY.


let me try and give 3 broad arguments for forgiveness.

1. virtue ethics. had to dig up the old 1st year study guide for this one. seneca says that anger is the greatest plague on humanity and by anger he means 'the urge to justify things when being wronged'. from here i think forgiveness should naturally follow. forgiveness to the virtue ethicist has intrinsic value, so practicing it should come naturally as long as it does not conflict with other virtues such as justice. therefore, if one believes that the culprit has paid his dues, he should be forgiven.

2. utilitarian argument. do it if it maximizes happiness to all those who can be affected.

3 duty ethics. do it out of your duty to be ethical. kant says that we should only be moral to those who are also moral so i guess if the culprit has proved that he is moral, shows remorse whatever, you should forgive him.

really broad arguments, i would usually write an entire essay on this, but i really can't be fucked :P. i think all the arguments lead to one point, as long as it does not conflict with other virtues such as justice, you should forgive him. strong emotions are not good enough as an argument.
 
Existence precedes essence! haha I remember studying existemtialism and essentialism for quite awhile. Anyone ever debate between existence and essence?
 

tape

i woke up in a new bugatti
New question:

What is time? What is it relevant to? What does it do? Has time really passed while this question was typed?
Sorry to bring this one up, but there's always ONE question about time that bugs me, it always comes to the top of my head whenever people talk about time, and it is that we would really never know wheter time stopped or not.

Per example, "time" as a whole could be making a "pause" like, every 3 seconds, but we don't know it.I don't even know why that intrigues me, though.

Also, is time infinite?Does it ever actually stop forever and ever?
 
Time can be viewed through various perceptions.

I beleive time has no relevence in debates because its just a term humans have conjured up to express a form of quantifying a history.

Scientifically "time" is very essential for formulizing and quite difficult to do without but we're talking about philosophy so I dont want to get into the scientific implications.
 

tape

i woke up in a new bugatti
Well, that's the other time.One is for measure, and the other is the actual time.

I really doubt "time" doesn't exist.Probably some dimension overlapped or something.
 
Lets see if I remember right.. the basics are:

essence is the belief that humans existence or any form of life's existence is made before the existence of the actual life form (like genes), while existence is the belief that our existence is made first and then we form an "essence" like God or another powerful being.

Thats the basics. . .
 
Interesting, but essence sounds better if that is the case. Why must man rely on something more to be the "go to guy" like God?
 
Hey guys, I don't post much, but I've been struggling with religion for a while now and you guys seem to be pretty intelligent people.

I've grown up in a family without religion. We've always gone to public schools, never gone to church, my parents have already told me they don't believe in God. But I go to a christian high school because my parents like the more conservative environment. I had never really given christianity a chance before high school, because evolution and such had been drilled into me for most of my life. But after freshmen year of biology and theology classes, I converted to christianity. But I fear maybe for the wrong reasons.

The biggest reason was that I saw evolution as false. I still do, but I think that I must be missing some important facts because scientists everywhere have come to a near consensus that evolution is true. The way I see it is that evolution is based on mutations. Obviously the first singled celled organisms that formed themselves in whatever (logical) way did not have the genetic information of every species to ever live on earth. So that information must have mutated over time. The earth is supposedly billions of years old but even in that much time, it seems like the odds of every single of allele of every single gene of every single chromosome of every single genome of every single species forming randomly are just so low it's insane. Consider that most mutations are harmful and I just have trouble believing in the theory of evolution.

But that said, I also think it's a logical fallacy to believe something because the alternative is false. Maybe the only alternative we know of, but it seems silly to assume that we fully comprehend the universe at this time, no matter how far humans have progressed.

Recently I've come to lose my faith in christianity. Ironically because I've been studying the actual bible this year in theology, rather than the main concepts. And this is the part I struggle with. The main ideas of christianity make so much sense to me. We humans do have innate issues and are in need of help of we wish to live up to the standards of a perfect God, but there really is nothing we can do. Humans never can and never will be perfect. And that's why God sent his son to save us, to be the perfect sacrifice, etc... that all makes sense to me. It all lines up with my conscience and heart's thoughts.

But at the same time, these ideas come from a book which writes almost exclusively about condemnment and hate. About violence, and about fearing an angry ruler. The old testament is about living up to God's high standards. While the new testament spends most of it's time attempting to reconcile itself with the old testament. The fact is that the old testament was written by violent and bigotrous (is that a word? haha) ancient jews, and the new testament was written by jews and gentiles alike who were too proud to give up there tradition of God and were attempting to justify their beliefs. While the writers of the New Testament may quote the Old, and profess their faith in it, I highly doubt the writers of the Old would consider the new testament anything more than heresy. The whole book reeks of hypocrisy and contradictions.

No matter how much logical sense it makes, christianity has an unreliable base. If their are no facts supporting it, than I have no reason to believe it

If there is a God, after reading the Bible I am quite sure it was not written by him. Which leads me to the question of are we reading the real deal. These books were written 2000+ years ago, who's to say we are reading anything close to the originals? A lot of people don't know this, but around the year 250, a council of christian elders met in Nicea. These elders compiled all known prophetic literatures and literally decided what was and wasn't God's word. This is the one thing that pisses me off the most about Christianity. How in the world could we let male chauvinist, arrogant, elders who lived 1700 years ago decide what is right and wrong for us? Another fun fact, one of the most well-known christian doctrines is the prejudice against homosexuality, but did you know it is actually a very debatable subject in the bible? In fact there is actually no word for homosexual in ancient hebrew. The holy code references that a man should not lie with a man as he would a woman, but did you know that lesbianism is never once mentioned in the bible. I think it more likely that homosexuals were frowned upon because male chauvinist ancient jews thought it wrong that a man should take the position of a woman in bed, the receiver. They thought it demeaning or disgraceful. And to think christians are using that rationale (they haven't thought of their own) to justify their prejudice against other human beings is sickening.

But if it was not written by God, and God still exists, than is it possible that nobody truly knows his true will? Would God literally send everybody to hell, despite knowing that we have all been misled? That seems unlikely from a benevolent God. But at the same time would a just God simply give a free pass into heaven for close-minded and hypocritical christians who only believe in God because it was drilled into them and send open-minded and free thinking, but misled non-christians to hell?

I also have a few logical issues with some christian ideas, some of these I understand have no answer and are just logical paradoxes that appear when discussing God.

1. Who is the devil? What is his nature? From what I understand he is apparently pure evil. He is rebbelious to God down to the core. He was in prescence of God, saw his power, saw his great wisdom and still chose to rebel. But I don't see how a rational being could do this. Was it not clear to him that God was all-powerful? Did he actually believe him and his demon friends could defeat God? If so, why did God not make this plain to him? How did he justify damning Satan for all eternity, knowing full well that had he made it clear to Satan that he was perfect, invincible both to rebellion, and to criticism, Satan would not have rebelled. Satan really had no reason to rebel against God if he was perfect. Yet he must have had reason to believe God was not perfect, and being omniscient God knew this, why did he not make it clear?

2. This is a simple one, if God is all-powerful, could he make a boulder so heavy that even he could not lift it? This seems like a juvenile question, but I really think it calls into question the legitimacy of titles like "omnipotent". As some things are simply not doable.

3. Another somewhate simple one, if God is omniscient, do we have free-will? Think about it, I have plans to go to the beach tommorrow, I might change my mind, I don't know, but God does. Let's assume I do go. Right at this very moment, God knows that I am going to go to the beach tommorrow. He is omniscient, so he cannot be wrong. Therefore I cannot not go to the beach tommorrow, otherwise he'd be wrong. In which case, before the decision is made, it is predetermined which choice I will make. I have no say in the matter. It may feel like I do, because God's divine foreknowledge is not made known to me, but it's an illusion of free will. Now a common mistake is that this implies God controls us. There is a difference between him knowing what we are going to do/choose and him forcing us to do/choose. It merely implies that something (who knows? fate?) has predetermined our lives.

4. This one I bugs me a lot. How does God justify punishing people for what he both knows they will do, and has the power to stop? Now "God gives us free-will" is the textbook answer, but I think it's a rather cruel realization if it's true. God is omniscient. Your struggles with faith, your conversions to christianity/atheism, your battles with sin, they are all meaningless. God knew before you were born who would win. And I find it rather sadistic that God would bring a being into this world knowing full well that he/she would not die a christian and would go to hell. How could he do that a child he loves unconditionally? Making everybody Christian would save everybody, but of course that would lead to questions of free-will. But I wonder why he allows people who will not find Christianity on their own to be born, and to go to hell, when there is no sacrifice here in free-will. Some may say that without evil, good is meaningless. But that is rather cruel as well. The souls of millions are damned to hell for the good of others. Now it's a dog-eat-dog world and I understand that, but when it's not up to you, it's just cruel.

Alright, sorry for that wall of text, I just have a lot of thoughts, probably more I just didn't think of. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
 
^Giant wall of text, that I have something to add.

Humans are innately evil, thats why we have wars, and continue to work on tools toward genocide, and so much prejudice and racism. If god created us in his image, wouln't that mean he too is innately evil? This would make sense with all of the "questionable" actions he takes, like allow war, and unequality. If he was inately evil, would that make the Devil ether.
A)The true god, who is the good one, and just one?
B)God and the devil the same person, just seen in to 2 different ways?

This is of course assuming you beleve in the idea that humanity is as a whole, evil.
 
^Giant wall of text, that I have something to add.

Humans are innately evil, thats why we have wars, and continue to work on tools toward genocide, and so much prejudice and racism. If god created us in his image, wouln't that mean he too is innately evil? This would make sense with all of the "questionable" actions he takes, like allow war, and unequality. If he was inately evil, would that make the Devil ether.
A)The true god, who is the good one, and just one?
B)God and the devil the same person, just seen in to 2 different ways?

This is of course assuming you beleve in the idea that humanity is as a whole, evil.
assuming that a whole species is innately evil is lazy and a cop-out
 
Of course that was assuming that you believe humans are evil. And I'd guess it can be most or somthing, the point remains similar
 
I'd like to respond to Sancho (without quoting the giant wall).

This is probably going to draw the ire of a lot of people (read: Christians).

There is no God. At least not as the Christians believe Him to be. All religions have an overly simplistic concept at their core. The universe cannot possibly be that simple. We barely know what's in the fucking ocean of our own planet, yet people think they know the workings of existence itself? It's laughable.

Evolution isn't false. Evolution is a generation-to-generation change in the frequencies of alleles within a population that shares a common gene pool. It can be observed. New species can also form through hybridization, though it's very rare. Then there's horizontal gene transfer, the transfer of genetic material from one organism to another organism that is not its offspring. Then of course there are mutations, and the countless generations of every organism in existence through which all of these processes occurred and are still occurring in. And I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more complexity to each of the things I've mentioned, and many other things involved in evolution I either am not aware of or don't understand.

Turning to God as an alternative to this concept seems crazy to me. You can't get any more simplistic than "God did it," now can you? The Bible contradicts reality itself. It could have been written or edited by anyone (and was).

The only logical sense Christianity makes is in the context of some guy sitting down and coming up with stories to explain everything without any basis. It makes sense. Until you bring observed facts into the mix. Then it all kind of falls apart, on many different fronts. Think of all the dead religions that once existed. Ancient Egyptians, Romans, etc. What is really different about modern religions? Every religion is just as good an explanation as any. They're all poor explanations.

To me, this picture represents the justification most Christians have for what they believe.



Sorry to all those offended. If anyone has a legitimate argument against anything I've said, I'd love to hear it.

Make no mistake. I don't think religion is bad, but I do think it's ridiculous. Every human being has the right to believe what they wish.
 
ive never understood the appeal of christianity

if you really want to play make-believe, shit like lightning being zeus's wrath and thunder being the roar of cerberus is so much fucking cooler than anything christianity has to offer
 
ive never understood the appeal of christianity

if you really want to play make-believe, shit like lightning being zeus's wrath and thunder being the roar of cerberus is so much fucking cooler than anything christianity has to offer
Norse gods seem pretty badass too.
 
The main ideas of christianity make so much sense to me. We humans do have innate issues and are in need of help of we wish to live up to the standards of a perfect God, but there really is nothing we can do. Humans never can and never will be perfect. And that's why God sent his son to save us, to be the perfect sacrifice, etc... that all makes sense to me. It all lines up with my conscience and heart's thoughts.
I've always been curious as to what makes people believe the 'perfect sacrifice' concept. I don't know much about the subject, so can you elaborate on it?
 
^Giant wall of text, that I have something to add.

Humans are innately evil, thats why we have wars, and continue to work on tools toward genocide, and so much prejudice and racism. If god created us in his image, wouln't that mean he too is innately evil? This would make sense with all of the "questionable" actions he takes, like allow war, and unequality. If he was inately evil, would that make the Devil ether.
A)The true god, who is the good one, and just one?
B)God and the devil the same person, just seen in to 2 different ways?

This is of course assuming you beleve in the idea that humanity is as a whole, evil.
I think much of the "bad" we see in humanity can be attributed to our animal roots. Take wars and the obsession with developing more powerful weapons of war; the need to be dominant, for example. Many species of animals are territorialy and will attack intruders of their domain. Many animals also live in hiarchys which are created and maintained through fighting among members. I feel that the instincts behind animals to exhibit such behavior can be found in us as well. But since we are much more intelligent then any other species, we are capable of indulging such instincts on a much grander scale.

Also, as for being "created in God's image" I don't think the simalarity has to with how we live. I think we a similar to God because of the unique ability we have - to create. Much like God created the universe and all that, we are also able to create. Our likeness stems from our ability to visualize somethings, and then make it reality.
 
I'd like to respond to Sancho (without quoting the giant wall).

This is probably going to draw the ire of a lot of people (read: Christians).

There is no God. At least not as the Christians believe Him to be. All religions have an overly simplistic concept at their core. The universe cannot possibly be that simple. We barely know what's in the fucking ocean of our own planet, yet people think they know the workings of existence itself? It's laughable.

Evolution isn't false. Evolution is a generation-to-generation change in the frequencies of alleles within a population that shares a common gene pool. It can be observed. New species can also form through hybridization, though it's very rare. Then there's horizontal gene transfer, the transfer of genetic material from one organism to another organism that is not its offspring. Then of course there are mutations, and the countless generations of every organism in existence through which all of these processes occurred and are still occurring in. And I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more complexity to each of the things I've mentioned, and many other things involved in evolution I either am not aware of or don't understand.

Turning to God as an alternative to this concept seems crazy to me. You can't get any more simplistic than "God did it," now can you? The Bible contradicts reality itself. It could have been written or edited by anyone (and was).

The only logical sense Christianity makes is in the context of some guy sitting down and coming up with stories to explain everything without any basis. It makes sense. Until you bring observed facts into the mix. Then it all kind of falls apart, on many different fronts. Think of all the dead religions that once existed. Ancient Egyptians, Romans, etc. What is really different about modern religions? Every religion is just as good an explanation as any. They're all poor explanations.

To me, this picture represents the justification most Christians have for what they believe.



Sorry to all those offended. If anyone has a legitimate argument against anything I've said, I'd love to hear it.

Make no mistake. I don't think religion is bad, but I do think it's ridiculous. Every human being has the right to believe what they wish.
Your arguement can be extended to almost anything, and not just Chrisitanity.

Let's take evolution for example. Although there is no denying that it does exist, it's exact mechanisms are still unkown. Textbooks may preach about allele frequencies, random mutations, and countless generations gradually bringing on changes, but in truth whoes to say if this is all there is behind evolution? And whoes to say that the current theory is right?

What I'm trying to say is that take everything you look into with a grain of salt. I'm Roman Catholic but I don't go around believing that people lived to be 900 or that the world will end with a plague of creepy man-faced locusts. People who always thump the Chrisitanity (or other religions) tend to look too shallowly. Sure the Bible says crazy things, but what's important is the message not the content. Also remember when it was written. The writing style it adopts was for people who lived thousands of years ago, and not us. Of course it seems off to us.

As for the true nature of God; I don't think any religion has a clear-cut picture. I also believe that people who use science to disproved God are off as well. I compare it to wandering in a forest, and trying to understand the layout of the country your in. The reality is that we are too small a piece in the overall puzzle to understand how this world works. Whoe's to say how many other demensions there could be, or how many other planes of existance there are. Mabye, just like atoms make up the fabric of our world, we are some sub-atomic particle that makes up another world. And mabye there is some devine being behind it all, and then again maybe there isn't.
 

Surgo

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pervy_sennin said:
Let's take evolution for example. Although there is no denying that it does exist, it's exact mechanisms are still unkown. Textbooks may preach about allele frequencies, random mutations, and countless generations gradually bringing on changes, but in truth whoes to say if this is all there is behind evolution? And whoes to say that the current theory is right?
This is where the concept of Occam's Razor comes into effect. The allele frequencies, random mutations, countless generations etc. is a model for the change into the current state of the world. So is believing a sky-faerie is responsible. The concept of Occam's Razor is that we pick the model with the fewest unknown variables. Which in this case is evolution, as we do have experimental evidence of most of those things you mention. Experimental evidence is to say that the current model is "right", and it does not rule out a further refining of the model by eliminating more unknown variables.
 

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