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Physical HO team, needs modernizing
- Thread starter jchen
- Start date
for a DS azelf, 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 Def. ~Reflect/LS/SR/ Taunt or Explosion
you need max speed to at least tie with other azelfs.
If you could change your team extensively, I would suggest DDkingdra paired with DDmence. Dragon moves are only walled by steels, once those are gone, you could just spam Outrage.
you need max speed to at least tie with other azelfs.
If you could change your team extensively, I would suggest DDkingdra paired with DDmence. Dragon moves are only walled by steels, once those are gone, you could just spam Outrage.
is uxie a better dual screen lead than azelf? its got much better defenses and will survive better. im just wondering cause dont really have that much exp with dual screeners, and if you taunt while they fire blast and you lose the next speed tie dont you die while accomplishing nothing? or do you light screen and hope you dont lose the speed tie?
I think there is certainly a fundamental problem with your team. Typically HO team builders attempt to figure out what they want to be walled by (and therefore break down), and then build sweepers around that. Typically you want the dual-screener, 3-4 mons that wear down the counter, and then 1-2 mons that can force out the counter so that it has to eat sr damage again as it comes in next. I didn't see you discuss the intended targets, so I will assume you did not do that.
With that being said, your team is a bit walled by Rotom (which in my opinion should be the counter of focus for this team), but not in such a way that you can wear it down. With this in mind I recommend that you change some movesets to more effectively accomplish your goal. The first thing I will recommend is that you change your Machamp to Tyranitar. He has more Special bulk and nearly as much Physical bulk with only 4 HP invested. One of the major reasons I think this change is important is that Tyranitar gives you a way to force out Scarf Rotom and other Electric types, and the passive damage may seem a negative thing, but in actuality it helps you wear down counters much more easily.
The Tyranitar set I recommend is:
Tyranitar @ Babiri Berry/Leftovers/Lum Berry/Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly
Dragon Dance
Stone Edge
Crunch
Fire Punch / Earthquake
Tyranitar really hates that the metagame has decentralized away from Latias and Rotom, but he still gets good setup opportunities on Heatran, and he also enjoys Scizor's 5% drop in usage (although the Babiri Berry prevents it from being a counter)
The next Pokemon I would like to address is Metagross. Metagross has excellent synergy with Scizor and Gyarados, but you aren't using a set that will help you wear down Rotom. At the very least I would replace Explosion with Zen Headbutt, which allows you to hit Rotom fairly hard. The accuracy of Zen Headbutt is sometimes disappointing but it is better than being utterly walled when Rotom comes in. Most people put Thunderpunch in that slot, but Gyarados is the only thing you will be hitting substantially harder with Thunderpunch > Zen Headbutt. You could also stand to use a bit more speed on your Metagross. It takes 225 Speed (196 EVs) to beat Neutral Choice Scarf base 100s after an Agility (Neutral base 100s were uncommon when Mence was around, but are now becoming more popular), and you don't beat +Speed ones unless you go Jolly, so you can safely invest the extra 14 points into HP, meaning the spread is 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe Adamant.
For Scizor, I recommend using a bit more speed to help you beat opposing Metagross and Skarmory. I typically use the rather arbitrary 88 EVs, and then put 152 in HP (which reaches both a Life Orb and Stealth Rock number), and finally 12 in Defense. Keep the attack maxed out of course. Also I second the notion of putting Bug Bite > Quick Attack on Scizor. It is very useful for hitting Metagross, Swampert, and opposing Gyarados (which are 2hkod by Bug Bite + Bullet Punch in Sandstorm after Stealth Rock).
Regarding your Lucario set, I have a couple suggestions. First, the EV Spread. If you use a 29 HP IV and move the 4 EVs from HP to Special Defense or Defense, then you can get a Life Orb number. This is really only worth it if you use Life Orb more than 3 times, but I have often been in situations where I have been worn down so much that the extra HP I save in Life Orb recoil has saved me. I also noticed that you are using the Standard Lucario set with Crunch. I recommend that you at the very least test Bullet Punch, which not only gives Lucario more synergy with other teammates, but also eliminates common Lucario responses such as Scarf Tyranitar and Gengar. With the other changes I have made, it is a bit more okay that you are essentially hopeless against Rotom.
Hopefully you will give my suggestions a try, and good luck with your team. I always enjoyed theorizing with these teams. They are theory in motion.
With that being said, your team is a bit walled by Rotom (which in my opinion should be the counter of focus for this team), but not in such a way that you can wear it down. With this in mind I recommend that you change some movesets to more effectively accomplish your goal. The first thing I will recommend is that you change your Machamp to Tyranitar. He has more Special bulk and nearly as much Physical bulk with only 4 HP invested. One of the major reasons I think this change is important is that Tyranitar gives you a way to force out Scarf Rotom and other Electric types, and the passive damage may seem a negative thing, but in actuality it helps you wear down counters much more easily.
The Tyranitar set I recommend is:
Tyranitar @ Babiri Berry/Leftovers/Lum Berry/Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly
Dragon Dance
Stone Edge
Crunch
Fire Punch / Earthquake
Tyranitar really hates that the metagame has decentralized away from Latias and Rotom, but he still gets good setup opportunities on Heatran, and he also enjoys Scizor's 5% drop in usage (although the Babiri Berry prevents it from being a counter)
The next Pokemon I would like to address is Metagross. Metagross has excellent synergy with Scizor and Gyarados, but you aren't using a set that will help you wear down Rotom. At the very least I would replace Explosion with Zen Headbutt, which allows you to hit Rotom fairly hard. The accuracy of Zen Headbutt is sometimes disappointing but it is better than being utterly walled when Rotom comes in. Most people put Thunderpunch in that slot, but Gyarados is the only thing you will be hitting substantially harder with Thunderpunch > Zen Headbutt. You could also stand to use a bit more speed on your Metagross. It takes 225 Speed (196 EVs) to beat Neutral Choice Scarf base 100s after an Agility (Neutral base 100s were uncommon when Mence was around, but are now becoming more popular), and you don't beat +Speed ones unless you go Jolly, so you can safely invest the extra 14 points into HP, meaning the spread is 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe Adamant.
For Scizor, I recommend using a bit more speed to help you beat opposing Metagross and Skarmory. I typically use the rather arbitrary 88 EVs, and then put 152 in HP (which reaches both a Life Orb and Stealth Rock number), and finally 12 in Defense. Keep the attack maxed out of course. Also I second the notion of putting Bug Bite > Quick Attack on Scizor. It is very useful for hitting Metagross, Swampert, and opposing Gyarados (which are 2hkod by Bug Bite + Bullet Punch in Sandstorm after Stealth Rock).
Regarding your Lucario set, I have a couple suggestions. First, the EV Spread. If you use a 29 HP IV and move the 4 EVs from HP to Special Defense or Defense, then you can get a Life Orb number. This is really only worth it if you use Life Orb more than 3 times, but I have often been in situations where I have been worn down so much that the extra HP I save in Life Orb recoil has saved me. I also noticed that you are using the Standard Lucario set with Crunch. I recommend that you at the very least test Bullet Punch, which not only gives Lucario more synergy with other teammates, but also eliminates common Lucario responses such as Scarf Tyranitar and Gengar. With the other changes I have made, it is a bit more okay that you are essentially hopeless against Rotom.
Hopefully you will give my suggestions a try, and good luck with your team. I always enjoyed theorizing with these teams. They are theory in motion.
Well first of all i guess i should spell out my strategy, which is basically Machamp coming out hopefully after dual screens are up and drawing out the physical walls, most of which cant do shit to me with my sp def investment and 1+ bulk up. This set especially was meant to kill Rotom, as the scarf version fails to 3HKO even without screens and the defensive version gives me a guts boost before getting OHKO'd. phazers give Machamp problems since without max attack i cant really hit hard enough before i'm blown away.
After that Meta usually comes out. Alot of time the opponent sends in their scarftran on first sight of meta, which means i get the agility on the switch and am therefore faster, so i kill with EQ, even if they have shuca. Meta's job is basically to cause havoc, and explode on a physical wall, any physical wall or bulky water. I dont have a specific target to eliminate because i thought that would leave me really open to something else. My thoughts were that decent teams have 1 physical wall and maybe a bulky water on top of that. If Machamp and Meta can eliminate one each, which happens quite often, the opponent will either have no defensive pokes left or is a hugely imbalanced team. This lets my other 3 pokes set up an easy sweep.
However i do see the weakness to scarf rotom, as it was why i made this RMT to begin with. however Machamp was my counter to it, do you suggest i simply replace it? I still therefore have the problem that my team is helpless once that singular counter is gone. Or is it that both require dual screen support to work at their best and therefore i cant use both of them?
I will change Crunch to bullet punch, if i add T-tar and rotom lives through one/both then i'm dead anyways.
Also for the scizor change, my friend told me that less speed was better, since if i superpower after they roost i do 2x damage and whirlwind has negative priority anyways. I guess im not too scared of it using spikes/drill peck.
On meta, i havent seen any neutral base 100's with scarf, but then again i havent played since mence got banned due to being out of the country. if you say they are getting really popular i guess i'll trust you. however just one question, is scarf flygon still jolly or is it being changed to adamant? anyways i'll try it so see, as well as the zen headbutt idea, although i really dont like being completely and hopelessly walled by skarm, hippowdon, etc.
On that note, i really dont know how T-tar draws out Rotom. wouldnt rotom avoid T-tar like the plague? Machamp on the other hand they think they can deal with then get roflstomped.
EDIT: Shoddy doesn't let me put bug bite on scizor. can anyone help me here?
After that Meta usually comes out. Alot of time the opponent sends in their scarftran on first sight of meta, which means i get the agility on the switch and am therefore faster, so i kill with EQ, even if they have shuca. Meta's job is basically to cause havoc, and explode on a physical wall, any physical wall or bulky water. I dont have a specific target to eliminate because i thought that would leave me really open to something else. My thoughts were that decent teams have 1 physical wall and maybe a bulky water on top of that. If Machamp and Meta can eliminate one each, which happens quite often, the opponent will either have no defensive pokes left or is a hugely imbalanced team. This lets my other 3 pokes set up an easy sweep.
However i do see the weakness to scarf rotom, as it was why i made this RMT to begin with. however Machamp was my counter to it, do you suggest i simply replace it? I still therefore have the problem that my team is helpless once that singular counter is gone. Or is it that both require dual screen support to work at their best and therefore i cant use both of them?
I will change Crunch to bullet punch, if i add T-tar and rotom lives through one/both then i'm dead anyways.
Also for the scizor change, my friend told me that less speed was better, since if i superpower after they roost i do 2x damage and whirlwind has negative priority anyways. I guess im not too scared of it using spikes/drill peck.
On meta, i havent seen any neutral base 100's with scarf, but then again i havent played since mence got banned due to being out of the country. if you say they are getting really popular i guess i'll trust you. however just one question, is scarf flygon still jolly or is it being changed to adamant? anyways i'll try it so see, as well as the zen headbutt idea, although i really dont like being completely and hopelessly walled by skarm, hippowdon, etc.
On that note, i really dont know how T-tar draws out Rotom. wouldnt rotom avoid T-tar like the plague? Machamp on the other hand they think they can deal with then get roflstomped.
EDIT: Shoddy doesn't let me put bug bite on scizor. can anyone help me here?
Flash Fire Arcanine w/ Howl/Extremespeed/Flare Blitz/ (Thunder Fang / HP Grass / HP Ground) could alleviate your fire weak and replace tyranitar. Tyranitars problem is that most things that he commonly counters/sets up on can actually beat him via things like Hydro Pump and Focus Blast. He doesn't solve your starmie/jolteon/gengar issue unless scarfed. Rest/Talk/Curse/Crunch would be a better last poke win condition on your team.
Rain Dance Kingdra is the other primary option I would suggest, with Waterfall/Hydro Pump/Outrage/Rain Dance (Don't use the mono water set its garbs). Its one of the most destructive Kingdra sets available and gives you the versatality of a mixed attacker in your lineup now that infernape is out. It also clears sandstorm, 8x resists fire and helps with your fire resist while rain is out.
Rain Dance Kingdra is the other primary option I would suggest, with Waterfall/Hydro Pump/Outrage/Rain Dance (Don't use the mono water set its garbs). Its one of the most destructive Kingdra sets available and gives you the versatality of a mixed attacker in your lineup now that infernape is out. It also clears sandstorm, 8x resists fire and helps with your fire resist while rain is out.
Congrats on posting a HO team without getting flamed for using 5 sweepers lol. One thing i would recommend is changing Explosion on Metagross. After you explode you have to make a blind switch which any HO team wants to avoid. Thunder Punch is nice for hitting waters and all, but since your using Life Orb Zen Headbutt can work out too. It's STAB and dents Rotom while maintaining coverage vs all bulky waters. Another suggestion is changing Lucario's nature to Adamant, with Jolly your not guaranteed a KO's on many things (Flygon, Skarmory, ect.). If your still paranoid about Timid Rotom Bullet Punch can pick him off after it's weakened plus your sweep isn't stopped by Gengar or Scarftar. Last thing I want to address on Lucario is the ability, Inner Focus > SteadFast (you still lost a turn with Steadfast).
Edit: I just realized your Azelf has no attack moves but has Sp.Atk ev's, maybe change this to HP or one of the defensive stats so it can last a bit longer and possibly set up screens a second time.
Edit: I just realized your Azelf has no attack moves but has Sp.Atk ev's, maybe change this to HP or one of the defensive stats so it can last a bit longer and possibly set up screens a second time.
Hi,
Just curious, but why do you have 252 Sp.attack EVs in Azelf when you don't carry an attacking move? I'd recommend moving those Sp.attack EVs into HP to give Azelf some much needed longevity.
Just curious, but why do you have 252 Sp.attack EVs in Azelf when you don't carry an attacking move? I'd recommend moving those Sp.attack EVs into HP to give Azelf some much needed longevity.
lol sorry im not that dumb XD. i run 252 hp, just forgot to edit in OP when i switched from the standard to the dual screen one.
Im also thinking of using kingdra, any1 with experience can tell the pro's/cons of each set? ie what does dual dance counter and what does d-dance with outrage/waterfall/special move deal well against?
Im also thinking of using kingdra, any1 with experience can tell the pro's/cons of each set? ie what does dual dance counter and what does d-dance with outrage/waterfall/special move deal well against?