Physically Defensive Roselia (Inclusion) [QC 1/1] [GP 1/1]

[Blast]

EDIT: This is only an edit to the AC of the current Roselia set. Everything else will stay the same.

Flower Power

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A specially defensive spread is usually Roselia's best option because of her ability to check common special attackers. Additionally, Armaldo is the only spinner in the tier capable of switching into Roselia without being 2HKOed after Stealth Rock damage, as Wartortle and Torkoal can be taken down by Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb, respectively.</p>

<p>Although she might not look the part, Roselia is also capable of running a physically defensive spread exceptionally well&mdash;this allows her to utilize her more physically-inclined defensive typing while still having good special bulk. By utilizing such a spread, Roselia can now check Ground-types, such as Golem, more easily. However, while this variant of Roselia does have its merits, it still has some glaring flaws&mdash;for example, Roselia's physical bulk is still not fantastic even when invested, and it can still be 2HKOed by many common physical attackers in the tier, such as Scolipede and Kangaskhan. Additionally, this Roselia cannot check special attackers, such as Ludicolo and Samurott, nearly as well as a specially defensive variants, as it's far more vulnerable to Ice Beam. Physically defensive Roselia is still viable and can certainly be considered under the right circumstances; however, the specially defensive one is superior in most cases.</p>

<p>As Roselia's Defense is lacking, she appreciates having a Pokemon to take physical hits for her. Alomomola is one of the best options, as not only can it take physical hits for Roselia, but it also resists the Fire- and Ice-type moves that ruin Roselia's day. Meanwhile, Roselia can take any Electric- and Grass-type attacks, as well as Toxics, aimed at Alomomola. It should be noted that Alomomola does not beat most Ice-types, it just tanks their hits in order to pivot to another partner. Musharna is another great partner, as it can effectively wall Sawk, one of the bigger threats to Roselia. Bastiodon is also a good choice thanks to its access to Stealth Rock, and it synergizes well with Roselia typing wise. As for spinblockers, Misdreavus is one of the best options, not only because of its bulk, but also because it can burn the physical attackers that threaten Roselia. Finally, Skuntank makes a good partner, as it can take care of any Psychic-types that threaten Roselia.</p>

 

[ryan]

Physically defensive Roselia is really good when used on the right team. Grass typing really helps it out against the opposing Ground- and Rock-types that Scolipede and Garbodor both lose to, so it's not completely outclassed as a Spiker either. This skeleton looks good, and I'll approve after 24 hours unless someone has any pressing concerns.

 

[jake]

I'm not really sold that this is worth using over something like physically defensive Garbodor (or even bulky Scolipede I guess?). Really, you don't _beat_ everything better, you just take a couple of hits better, and I don't know if it's actually worth a whole set of its own more than just a brief mention of a more physically defensive spread. Of the examples you mentioned in the OP:

252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Roselia: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.36%) -- 46.88% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Samurott Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Roselia: 216-255 (71.05 - 83.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Roselia: 119-141 (39.14 - 46.38%) -- 27.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (everything else on the standard set cleanly 2HKOes; this is the weakest plausible attack vs it). Scarf Sawk gets dumped on.
252 Atk Choice Band Primeape Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Roselia: 162-192 (53.28 - 63.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Admittedly, much better than vs Sawk. Scarf Primeape gets dumped on (lol Ice Punch does 35.52 - 42.1%, everything else ~25%).

A couple of other examples:

252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Roselia: 138-164 (45.39 - 53.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. +2 is a guaranteed OHKO, and remember that this is Return, not Double-Edge.
252+ Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Roselia: 133-157 (43.75 - 51.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Roselia: 144-171 (47.36 - 56.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And still checking Ludicolo? Look here: 252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Roselia: 187-221 (61.51 - 72.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. That, with one round of Hydro Pump (29-34%) and SR damage, you're guaranteed to lose. Same with special Samurott. You still beat Serperior, but uh every Poison-type in the tier destroys Serp with the exception of Scolipede sort of.

I mean, I get the idea behind it, but it seems like Roselia can't even switch into some of the threats mentioned with SR up without risking being 2HKOed (barring Choice Scarf Sawk / Primeape, but... half the meta can switch into them reasonably well). This really should just be a brief mention in the analysis, with a bit of reasoning about the advantages and disadvantages of it, I think.

 

[Blast]

Hmm... well from my experiences Rosie beats the stuff I mentioned in the OP, at least 1v1 thanks to Giga Drain recovery. I usually switched in as Golem set up rocks or Otter set up SD, take a hit, and then Giga Drain. Same thing with Ludicolo, switch in as he sets up rain then live a hit go for Sludge Bomb. I guess I can see your reasoning, that phys. def. Rosie isn't incredibly bulky and can't really stomach repeated attacks that well. Still, I think it's solid enough and also it's the only Spiker that can really check Rock- or Ground-types, which is pretty cool.

 

[jake]

Well, I mean... that all depends on how it all plays out, I guess. If you switch in on a Golem, it really seems like a losing situation. It either gets up rocks and switches out as you likely Giga Drain (I mean, you could be really ballsy and just stack your own hazards too but you risk getting 2HKOed), or it 2HKOes you on entry. If it's full HP and your opp doesn't mind losing Golem, then you're stuck with a 50% Roselia at best (considering it will outspeed with the standard spread, and that youd take it down to Sturdy) with rocks up on your side of the field. Same goes for Samurott; if it uses SD, then you get swamped by Megahorn especially if you have even slight prior damage, and even with Giga Drain, you knock it into Torrent range and don't have even a chance at KOing while it can just finish you off the next turn. There's no scenario where you really win, because you'll always end up with a low-HP Roselia with no hazards and essentially very, very little advantage if any.

Of course, prediction is always a thing and you can come in on Ludi using Rain Dance and all that, but you *risk* getting 2HKOed by everything that this set is supposed to help beat. I realize it's not a direct counter to these things, but you're still at risk of losing one of your central Pokemon (Spikes / T-Spikes are often relegated to just the one Pokemon and are usually very important for the teams that they are on) just because you misplayed your check to Pokemon X or Y.

I still think this is better mentioned as an alternative spread on the main set rather than having a set all of its own. Maybe it could have its own paragraph to talk about all the positives and negatives of it, etc. I don't think "solid enough" is really justifiable reasoning to give this its own entire set, you know?

 

[ebeast]

I saw this convo yesterday night, but didn't reply then cause lazy. Basically Zeb said a lot of what I wanted to say; Def Rose is good and it has its place, but since it's literally the same set as what's already the standard Spikes with just a different EV spread, I think it would be better to just make a larger mention of it in AC. Talk about what it can beat compared to the standard and what it cannot compared to the standard.

This is what the current AC currently looks like:

<p>A specially defensive spread is usually Roselia's best option because of her ability to check common special attackers and also due to her low physical bulk. Additionally, Armaldo is the only spinner in the tier capable of switching into Roselia without being 2HKOed after SR damage, as Wartortle and Torkoal can be taken down by Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb, respectively.

As Roselia's Defense is lacking, she appreciates having a Pokemon to take physical hits for her. Alomomola is one of the best options, as not only can it take physical hits for Roselia, but it also resists the Fire- and Ice-type moves that ruin Roselia's day. Meanwhile, Roselia can take any Electric- and Grass-type attacks, as well as Toxics, aimed at Alomomola. It should be noted that Alomomola does not beat most Ice-types, it just tanks their hits in order to pivot to another partner. Musharna is another great partner, as it can effectively wall Sawk, one of the bigger threats to Roselia. Bastiodon is also a good choice thanks to its access to Stealth Rock, and it synergizes well with Roselia typing wise. As for spinblockers, Misdreavus is one of the best options, not only because of its bulk, but also because it can burn the physical attackers that threaten Roselia. Finally, Skuntank makes a good partner as it can take care of any Psychic-type that threatens Roselia.</p>

Post your addition of the Def Roselia mention in the AC and I'd like one QC member and one GP member to check over it before it goes on site. Treecko and I decided that it would be cool to have the title as: Physically Defensive Roselia (Inclusion) [QC 0/1] [GP 0/1] so it differentiates itself from other analyses.

 

[Blast]

@ebeast Done. Edited the AC with the middle paragraph.

Also yay I still have 0 rejected analyses

 

[ebeast]

Two things:
In the first sentence you say that being physically defensive gives Roselia greater mixed bulk. That sounds kind of misleading, it would be better if it said something like: "allows her to utilize her more physically-inclined defensive typing while still having good special bulk."

In the second to last sentence you say: "Additionally, this Roselia cannot check special attackers, such as Ludicolo and Samurott, nearly as well as a specially defensive variants, leaving it far more vulnerable to Ice Beam." Instead of leaving it far more vulnerable, saying "as it's far more vulnerable to Ice Beam." would be better.

Other than that, this looks good to me

QC Approved

 

[Blast]

K, now ready for GP!

 

[Ender]

GPing

 

[Ender]

Nice work. GP 1/1

Changes are bold. Deletions are strikeout. AC and RC are comma changes.

Hide

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A specially defensive spread is usually Roselia's best option because of her ability to check common special attackers. Additionally, Armaldo is the only spinner in the tier capable of switching into Roselia without being 2HKOed after Stealth Rock damage, as Wartortle and Torkoal can be taken down by Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb, respectively.</p>

<p>Although she might not look the part, though, Roselia is also capable of running a physically defensive spread exceptionally well&mdash;this allows her to utilize her more physically-inclined defensive typing while still having good special bulk. By utilizing such a spread, Roselia can now check Ground-types, such as Golem, more easily easier. However, while this variant of Roselia does have its merits, there are still it still has some glaring flaws&mdash;for example, Roselia's physical bulk is still not fantastic even when invested, and it can still be 2HKOed by many common physical attackers in the tier, such as Scolipede and Kangaskhan. Additionally, this Roselia cannot check special attackers, such as Ludicolo and Samurott, nearly as well as a specially defensive variants, as it's far more vulnerable to Ice Beam. Physically defensive Roselia is still viable and can certainly be considered under the right circumstances; [changed , to ;] however, [AC] the specially defensive one is superior in most cases.</p>

<p>As Roselia's Defense is lacking, she appreciates having a Pokemon to take physical hits for her. Alomomola is one of the best options, as not only can it take physical hits for Roselia, but it also resists the Fire- and Ice-type moves that ruin Roselia's day. Meanwhile, Roselia can take any Electric- and Grass-type attacks, as well as Toxics, aimed at Alomomola. It should be noted that Alomomola does not beat most Ice-types, it just tanks their hits in order to pivot to another partner. Musharna is another great partner, as it can effectively wall Sawk, one of the bigger threats to Roselia. Bastiodon is also a good choice thanks to its access to Stealth Rock, and it synergizes well with Roselia typing wise. As for spinblockers, Misdreavus is one of the best options, not only because of its bulk, but also because it can burn the physical attackers that threaten Roselia. Finally, Skuntank makes a good partner, [AC] as it can take care of any Psychic-types that threaten Roselia.</p>

 

[Blast]

Implemented. Ready for upload :)

 

[ebeast]

Uploaded