Pokémon Firered & Leafgreen In-Game Tier Discussion

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Awesome work as usual! Don't feel bad about a late log submission; this thread's pretty slow going for the moment anyhow and you saw how I was haha. Some really fun stuff here -- Fearow and Hitmonlee managing a sweep on Sabrina is the biggest standout, Dig/Fly with Leftovers is something really good that I hadn't considered, and Fearow winning against something with Blackglasses Pursuit is one of the funniest things I've ever heard all week! One thing I do wanna ask though: what level did you get Shellder and Magnemite, and how long did you spend grinding them? Because they were instantly on par with your team in their first logs.
Thank you! Yeah I was just as pleasently surprised as you are about Hitmonlee vs Sabrina being better than "lol every psychic type Ohkos you". As for Shellder, I caught it as soon as I got the super rod post giovanni 1 so during the training session for Koga. It was above level 22 (I remember it knew aurora beam) and didn't take very long to catch. Time grinding is a bit hard to estimate but considering that I fought most trainers from routes 13-15 with Cloyster (or at least switch training it) to get to level 38 it took quite a while. If I had to put a number to it I maybe would've saved 20ish minutes by not training Cloyster and just sticking with the team of 3. Magneton was not as bad, caught at level 31 and there's a bunch of trainers in Silph co that are basically free exp since most of them can't hurt it. I probably fought about half of my fights in Silph with Magneton, and considering most of these are optional that's not a great grind but shouldn't count too much against it. I usually make sure my entire team is on par, even new members in their first fights, so in a less even, casual run Magneton might be 2-3 levels lower and Cloyster maybe 5 levels lower.

About Hitmonlee - yeah, I think it's is going to be way better than Machamp just because of speed. I mentioned that Machamp's bulk saves a lot of its matchups, but a big reason for that is that it's making up for its very very low speed. It doesn't outspeed really anything notable and hence it just can't sweep unless the matchup is really good, hence why I opted for Revenge over something technically more reliable. Hitmonlee doesn't have this issue as 87 in this game is at worst respectable and only really loses out against Alakazam and Aerodactyl, so I can see it pulling off sweeps that Machamp wasn't capable of -- the aforementioned Sabrina is an incredible example of this. I'll be curious to see if further logs can prove it's worthy of A.
I expected Hitmonlee to basically just be budget Machamp, but thanks to high jump kick and mega kick it's effectively just as strong and faster than the 4 armed beast. This is probably helped by the fact that mine is +attack but oh well. I am wondering about Elite 4 considering it's rock slide is weaker and probably not strong enough to KO ghost/flying types without eating hits, but we'll see how it goes.

About C seeming too harsh for Shellder: I'm not disagreeing on that (it seems good so far!), but I don't see C as a bad tier myself. The way I see the tiers - broadly - is S being The Best, A being amazing, B being good, C being meh, D being mostly bad and E being nigh-unusable. I just wanted to quickly clear that up in case that's why C sounded harsh; I see it as closer to middle-of-the-road than outright negative. Also, one of the reasons I put Shellder there is that it's relatively late-game; needing Surf to be encountered.
Sounds good, I wasn't really considering the grind which does push it closer to C in my eyes, but I'm expecting a very solid late game run from Cloyster which will maybe push it to B. Time will tell as obviously I'm not there yet. Also minor nitpick, it's post Giovanni, not post surf since you just need the super rod to get Shellder and can buy water stones.
 
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Also, one of the reasons I put Shellder there is that it's relatively late-game; needing Surf to be encountered.
Actually, no. All you need is the Super Rod, since you can encounter it in Vermillion. Granted, you need to clear Pokémon Tower, which requires clearing Rocket Hideout, but it’s still definitely obtainable before Koga. If you want, you can actually hold off on Erika, then throw Shellder against some of the gym trainers - the majority of them don’t have Grass moves, and Icicle Spear/Aurora Beam makes quick work of them.
 
Actually, no. All you need is the Super Rod, since you can encounter it in Vermillion. Granted, you need to clear Pokémon Tower, which requires clearing Rocket Hideout, but it’s still definitely obtainable before Koga. If you want, you can actually hold off on Erika, then throw Shellder against some of the gym trainers - the majority of them don’t have Grass moves, and Icicle Spear/Aurora Beam makes quick work of them.
Come to think of it I probably could have done the rocket hideout first and tested Cloyster vs Erika. It would probably not be a full sweep since Erika does have grass moves and Cloy has pretty bad special defense, but would've been interesting nonetheless.
 
And done, took a while because lazy but this thread isn't exactly bursting with activity so it's all good. Fun run, here's the logs!

Team, Fearow, Hitmonlee, Cloyster, Magneton, Nidoqueen, all lvl 42

Fearow. Return is an Ohko on Growlithe, although if you don't sack something to remove intimidate it has a slim chance to live. Ponyta is also an Ohko, same as Growlithe. Rapidash is only a 2hko, but you outspeed which is nice since fire blast only 2hkos you. You do outspeed Arcanine, but return only manages a 4hko/3hko without intimidate, and fire blast cooks you in one hit from full. Good matchup, you can only scratch Blaine's ace but sweep everything else.

Nidoqueen. Surf is an Ohko on Growlithe and Ponyta, not a threat as usual. Rapidash outspeeds but only does a third with fire blast so you can safely 2hko it. You surprisingly outspeed Arcanine, but won't beat it without some misses. Surf and dig (without intimidate) do similar damage so use on of those for about a third before going down. Good matchup, can't sweep without good luck but will always handle 3/4 mons.

Hitmonlee. Sack an HM slave to Growlithe so you can reset intimidate, proceed to Ohko with rock slide. Ponyta has 2 moves that barely hurt you, the 2 turn bounce, and fire blast which it only likes using when you're at low health. This makes it perfect to set up 3 bulk ups (lowest needed to Ohko Arcanine) and go to town. After bulk ups you outspeed and Ohko everything with rock slide, including the overleveled Arcanine. Very good matchup, only flaw is losing to rock slide accuracy (no way that move is 90%) or burns from fire blast, but otherwise you pull off a clean sweep.

Cloyster. Growlithe and Ponyta are outsped and Ohkod by surf, so it's nice that they can do literally nothing. Rapidash comes and shocked me by doing 90% with fire blast, although it never killed me it came close, so thankfully surf Ohkos it as well. Arcanine is slightly impossible since it outspeeds and Ohkos you with fire blast even from full. Even if it misses surf will 2hko, so you aren't winning without significant luck or x items. Still a good matchup thanks to always beating 3/4 mons, but sadly just falls short of a sweep.

Magneton. This went about as expected, Growlithe was outsped and Ohkod by thunderbolt. Same story for Ponyta. When Rapidash arrives it outspeeds and Ohkos you with fire blast, and it's only 2hkod by thunderbolt even if it misses. Mediocre performance, technically it beats half his team but the NFEs are not much of a threat, and therefore not worth much for KOing when you can't touch the other two.

Team, Fearow lvl 44, Hitmonlee lvl 44, Cloyster lvl 44, Nidoqueen lvl 45, Magneton lvl 43

Fearow. Rhyhorn is a nuisance thanks to spamming scary face, you would think rock blast is a threat but it almost never used it for some reason. It only either attacked with take down (about a 5hko through leftovers) or used scary face despite me outspeeding at -6. Steel wing will 3hko both Rhyhorns, by the time I beat them I was generally between a third and half HP, enough to live the rest of the fight. Dugtrio is outsped after sacking something to remove speed drops, and you Ohko with return. Nidoqueen is a 2hko, but body slam does hardly any damage so you just need to avoid poison point. Nidoking is also 2hkod, it's thrash is more powerful but still only dealing ~30 damage so you can comfortably live with leftovers and beat it. Weird sweep, given that it takes the most time to KO 2 mons that are usually a joke, but a sweep nonetheless.

Nidoqueen. Surf is very nice to have here since dig isn't really an option with all the earthquake spam. (how is this gym still standing?) Rhyhorn is outsped and Ohkod, next is Dugtrio who outspeeds but does a bit less than half with earthquake and goes down to one surf. Giovanni's own Nidoqueen comes out next, who is 2hkod by surf but does similar damage to Dugtrio so you live and beat it. Nidoking is outsped but at this point you're too low to take an earthquake and surf only 2hkos. Can't item spam to beat it either as it's earthquake is strong enough to 2hko. 2nd Rhyhorn is obviously a winning matchup if needed after something else beats Nidoking. Good performance, handles 2/3 of the actual threats and both Rhyhorns as a bonus, but sadly cannot sweep.

Hitmonlee. I would set up against Rhyhorn but it has scary face, so just Ohko it instead. Dugtrio comes in, use 2 bulk ups since earthquake can't KO you in time, and then Ohko sweep the rest of Giovanni's team. Only complication is mega kick accuracy vs the Nido's, but you can generally afford to miss once thanks to the defense boosts and leftovers. Amazing matchup, not quite perfect but a consitent sweep that Ohkos everything.

Cloyster. A real surf Ohko festival. Only two mons that can touch you are Nidoqueen, who has a slim chance to live surf and do meager damage back, and Dugtrio who outspeeds and 6hkos with earthquake. Needless to say, perfect showing here.

Magneton. MAGNETON used THUNDERBOLT! It doesn't affect foe RHYHORN/DUGTRIO/NIDOQUEEN/NIDOKING...

Team, Fearow lvl 44, Hitmonlee lvl 44, Cloyster lvl 44, Nidoqueen lvl 45, Magneton lvl 43

Fearow. Pidgeot is a chance to 2hko with return, you handle it even with featherdance since wing attack is like a 5hko. Rhyhorn gets 3hkod, it still doesn't use rock blast often but it will spam horn drill. You can beat it most of the time but it's both riskier and slower than having anything with a special move fight it instead. Venusaur is a 2hko but it usually uses growth and razor leaf isn't a threat, so easy win. Gyarados is a 3/4hko depending on intimidate, hydro pump will 3hko/2hko you depending on rain. Generally it just spams hydro but since you outspeed you beat it unless other mons have chipped you already. Growlithe is an Ohko/2hko with intimidate, Growlithe sucks at dealing damage however so even at -1 you deal with it fine. Alakazam is barely not Ohkod, meaning it gets a chance to attack, basically a 50/50 between psychic (does ~3/4 of your hp) or future sight. Great matchup, full sweep is rare due to Rhyhorn and all the chip damage, but can contribute lots vs anything on the rival's team.

Nidoqueen. Thunderbolt 2hkos Pidgeot, it does very little with wing attack especially with leftovers. Alakazam is the standard possible but inconsitent victory, as earthquake 2hkos but it outspeeds and can Ohko with psychic. Rhyhorn gets Ohkod by surf. Gyarados barely hangs on from thunderbolt but it always just goes for rain dance and you outspeed, so it's a good matchup. Growlithe is another easy Ohko with surf. Sack something to remove intimidates, vs Venusaur earthquake 4hkos while razor leaf 5hkos (you outspeed), you win unless it crits at +1. Quite a solid matchup, only one real obstacle to a full sweep here. Ice beam would've been good for Venusaur in hindsight but ah well.

Hitmonlee. Pidgeot will either Ohko you or ruin you with featherdance, rock slide 2hkos. Growlithe comes in after beating Pidgeot with Magneton, used 4 bulk ups since it can't hurt you unless flame wheel burns. Alakazam then comes in, either it uses psychic and Ohkos or it uses future sight and gets Ohkod, basically a coin flip on what it chooses. You Ohko and outspeed the rest of the rivals team, only complication is missing vs Gyarados since hydro pump + future sight will finish you off. Good matchup, loses to 2 mons pretty hard but very easy KOs on the rest.

Cloyster. Pidgeot barely lives one ice beam, not that it matters since wing attack does pitiful damage. Rhyhorn comes in next because one of the best trainers in Kanto never read the type chart. After Ohkoing it Venusaur comes in and outspeeds and Ohkos with razor leaf, rip. Gyarados is a 3hko, it sometimes just spams leer but even if it goes for rain dance and hydro pump you live 2 and KO it in time. Growlithe gets outsped and Ohkod, no surprise. Alakazam is last and it's the usual lottery of future sight or psychic. I will point out it's fairly unlikely to win here because psychic Ohkos you and Cloyster only 2hkos back, but still possible. Good matchup, performs very well vs 4 members but rather shaky vs the other 2.

Magneton. Wing attack from Pidgeot does approximately nothing so it's an easy Ohko. Growlithe is annoying since it only has like a 20% chance to be Ohkod, you live a flame wheel however so it's not a huge deal if you use a potion afterwards. Gyarados outspeeds and usually just uses rain dance, but even hydro pump only 2hkos so you can just Ohko it. Rhyhorn comes in, good luck with that amazing coverage Magneton has. After surfing Rhyhorn, Mag comes back in to fight Alakazam. Zam tends to use calm mind, if you use metal sound then it's a 2hko and you live +1 psychic. Not super consitent since if it just uses psychic twice after boosting you lose, and disable is a move, but you can win. Venusaur is weird, it spams growth and has synthesis for healing, but after 3 metal sounds you can 2hko it. Considering how much time Venu wastes with sweet scent or unboosted razor leafs I would say this is a matchup Mag is more likely to win than lose. Overall solid matchup, loses points for Rhyhorn hard walling it and needing some luck to sweep.

Lorelei
Team, Fearow, Hitmonlee, Cloyster, Nidoqueen, Magneton, all lvl 51.

Fearow. Dewgong is a 2hko with double edge, it almost always just uses a status move so it's fine. Slowbro is a 3hko but ice beam basically Ohkos when you considering recoil damage. Switching in later, Cloyster is surprisingly a good matchup since it lacks an ice move and gets 3hkod with double edge. Only other matchup of note is an Ohko and outspeeding Jynx, since Lapras is bulky and has ice beam. Decent matchup, capable of sniping a few mons including the dangerous Jynx but will never sweep.

Nidoqueen. Can't beat Dewgong without luck, since at best you 3hko with superpower/tbolt while surf/ice beam 2hkos you. Cloyster is trash and never actually tried to hit me, so it's easy to 2hko with tbolt. Slowbro is a 3hko but it 2hkos back, same goes for Jynx and Lapras. You need to hope for bad move choice and crits in order to do anything to them. Very poor matchup sadly, only reliable at beating Cloyster who barely does damage to anything.

Hitmonlee. Dewgong gets outsped and Ohkod by high jump kick, although you can't set up on it due to surf. Slowbro is risky, but doable since mega kick 3hkos before you get 3hkod back. Not super consistent due to how much damage you take and mega kick's accuracy, but it can be done. Cloyster is complete set up bait since it's only attack is weak and takes 2 turns. use 3 bulk ups, high jump kick to Ohko Cloyster, outspeed and Ohko Jynx and Lapras with rock slide. Very good matchup, only issues are with accuracy vs Slowbro and high jump kick, but otherwise a sweep.

Cloyster. Needs rng to beat Dewgong, as secret power and surf 5hko it while it can 4hko you and gets put in potion range. Cloyster is trivial since it can't even chip with hail and gets 3hkod by surf, if it uses dive you just deal more damage so it really can't do anything. Jynx is also beatable even with no full heal since ice punch is a 5-6hko while surf 3hkos in return. Nothing else is consistently beatable. Bad matchup, beating Jynx is nice but Cloyster is free for anything not 4x weak to water, and it loses to everything else without item spam or luck.

Magneton. Thunderbolt barely misses an Ohko on Dewgong, it either hits you with a surf for about half or hail which does nothing. Cloyster is outsped and Ohkod, no surprise here. Slowbro is very close to an Ohko as well, it tends to just go for amnesia, but even if it surfs you can live thanks to leftovers. Lapras is a bit of a mess because it's a speed tie and you 2hko eachother, but you can win with metal sound + thunderbolt to Ohko it and bypass sitrus. If you took 2 surfs from other Dewgong/Slowbro then you can't even heal to win but at least might get a big hit off before dying. Jynx is annoying due to lovely kiss, and only (consistently) beatable with potions since ice punch only 4hkos you while you 3hko with tbolt. Good matchup, expected better though. Worth noting this is a fight where lots of small differences like a +spatk nature or better IVs make a huge difference due to how close certain Ohkos are and speed tying Lapras.

Team, Hitmonlee lvl 52, Fearow, Cloyster, Nidoqueen, Magneton are lvl 51.

Fearow. Steel wing 3hkos Onix 1 and it deals roughly 1/2 of your HP in that time with rock tomb/iron tail chip. Switch out to remove speed debuffs, drill peck will then Ohko Hitmonchan (very low chance it doesn't, comes down to IVs). Machamp is a 2hko despite sitrus but you live cross chop and outspeed at -1 so it's a win no matter what. Hitmonlee is an Ohko, outsped even at -1. Onix 2 is also a 3hko, you may need to heal because of cross chop but otherwise a win. Very good matchup, sweep with maybe 1 item used, only complications are things like a crit cross chop so not perfect, but top tier.

Nidoqueen. Ohkos both Onixes just like everything else that learns surf in this game. Hitmonlee comes in, it outspeeds and 3hkos but you can get 2 earthquakes off in time to KO it. Machamp is a real mess of a matchup. On paper you win since you outspeed and 4hko while it 5hkos, maybe needing a potion due to Hitmonlee. In practice between cross chop having hi crit rate, guts from poison point and even earthquake pp on one attempt, it's very possible to lose here. I won about 60% of the time, so a good performance just not super clean. Hitmonchan is a 2hko with earthquake, sky uppercut barely scratches you but counter can get a surprise KO so you may need to heal prior. Good matchup, sweeps but needs 1-2 items and a bit of luck vs Machamp to pull it off.

Hitmonlee. Use bulk up twice against Onix, proceed to sweep unless you miss or got hit by 2 rock tombs since then Machamp outspeeds you. (it generally goes for earthquake.) Fantastic matchup, very simple, not as reliable as it could be due to accuracy playing a big part, but that's basically the only issue.

Cloyster. Onix 1 and 2 just get outsped and Ohkod, onto the actual threats. Hitmonchan outspeeds and 2hkos you while surf 3hkos. Same story for Hitmonlee. You do outspeed Machamp but it's a 4hko while cross chop 2hkos you, so you need to hope for bad move choice which is pretty unreliable this late in the game. Bad matchup, beating Onixes is good but considering they die to most special attacks anyway it's not super valuable.

Magneton. Obviously you can't touch the Onixes. Hitmonchan outspeeds and brings you to about 5 hp with sky uppercut, thunderbolt only does half in return. Hitmonlee straight up outspeeds and Ohkos you. You can outspeed Machamp but thunderbolt is only a 3hko and it can Ohko you back so still not good unless you want reflect support or something. Sadly an awful matchup, couldn't beat anything reliably.

Team, Hitmonlee lvl 52, Nidoqueen lvl 52, Fearow lvl 51, Cloyster lvl 51, Magneton lvl 51.

Fearow. Drill peck is a 2hko on Gengar 1, so it doesn't have much time for annoying status before going down. Golbat is basically the exact same (2hko with return + double edge) but it can actually attack with air cutter or confuse you. Arbok is a 2hko, sludge bomb does about half in return. Gengar 2 is a low chance to 2hko, usually you 3hko and need to heal before fighting and after 2 attacks due to sludge bomb doing similar damage to drill peck. Haunter is a 2hko, win if it misses hypnosis or uses curse, need an extra item otherwise. Good matchup, shaky and needs items for the Gengar but cleanly beats the rest of her team.

Nidoqueen. Note that I couldn't afford the shadow ball TM, I imagine it or even bite helps a lot here over superpower which is basically useless. Surf is a 4hko on Gengar 1, between double team, confusion and it getting into potion range you're very unlikely to win despite being 6hkod. Golbat outspeeds but air cutter is maybe a 7hko and it goes down to 2 thunderbolts. Haunter is a 3hko, you can beat it with items for chip/hypnosis but it can 2hko you with dream eater if you don't heal. Gengar 2 is a 5hko (not counting sitrus) but shadow ball does pitiful damage so you can generally beat it with 1-3 items depending on how much hypnosis it spams. Okay matchup, technically only loses to the first Gengar, but takes a long time to beat the ghosts and needs multiple items for sleep.

Hitmonlee. Bulk up once against the 1st Gengar, you outspeed and rock slide then 2hkos but you'll need a few to hit through double team. Shaky but since it mostly spams double team instead of attacking or using toxic it's usually a win. Golbat and Haunter are outsped and Ohkod with rock slide at +1 attack. Vs Gengar #2 use bulk up twice, usually you need 1 full restore due to chip damage and hypnosis here, rock slide then Ohkos it. Arbok is an Ohko with mega kick at +2 attack, missing one is generally fine since it only has physical moves and bite. Surprisingly a very good matchup, far from perfect however due to needing to chain rock slide hits and almost always needing an item to sweep. Arbok gets 2hkod by earthquake, bite barely scratches you thanks to leftovers.

Cloyster. Surf barely misses a 2hko on Gengar 1, it only has physical moves however so if you full heal the toxic you win no matter what. Golbat is a 2hko with ice beam, bite is a 4hko and it outspeeds so you do take significant damage in the process. Arbok outspeeds and 4hkos while you 3hko, potion is generally needed here due to chip damage and poison chances. Gengar 2 is a 3hko, it can only hurt you while asleep since it's stabs 5hko at best, full heal 0-2 times depending on how many times it hits hypnosis. Haunter is a 2hko and outspeeds, may need one last full heal if it hits a hypnosis but otherwise win. Decent matchup, without items you beat only beat 2 mons, with them you can sweep but you need 1-2 potions and several full heals which isn't great.

Magneton. Thunderbolt 2hkos Gengar 1, it can't toxic you and confusion/shadow punch barely outdamages leftovers so it's just a matter of time. Haunter gets 2hkod and only threatens with a 4hko dream eater in response. Golbat is an Ohko, it barely does damage with bite before going down. Arbok is similar but it's a 2hko so you take slightly more chip damage. Gengar 2 gets cleanly 2hkod while only being a threat with sleep, sometimes I had to heal due to chip damage but sometimes was fine. Excellent matchup, clean sweep with 0-1 items needed.

Team, Hitmonlee lvl 52, Nidoqueen lvl 52, Fearow lvl 51, Cloyster lvl 51, Magneton lvl 52.

Fearow. Even after sacking an hm slave to intimidate, double edge only 3hkos Gyarados while it can dragon rage + hyper beam to ko you. Dragonairs are outsped and 2hkod with return, Outrage does less than half. Dragonite won't happen even with item spam unless you get confusion luck, since double edge 3hkos while you get 2hkod by outrage. Bad matchup, only beats Dragonairs, aka the weakest members of Lance's team.

Nidoqueen. Gyarados outspeeds, and lives a thunderbolt so it can do over half with dragon rage+hyper beam before it goes down, although usually it chooses worse moves and does about a third. Aerodactyl is a 3hko with thunderbolt, it outspeeds but wing attack is roughly a 7hko so you can win even if it heals. Outspeed and 3hko both Dragonair with earthquake, outrage barely outdamages dragon rage so you can generally tank you're way through and win, potentially needing an item if the flying types hit too much. Dragonite isn't happening without ice beam, outrage 3hkos you and thunderbolt does so little damage i'm not sure how long it would take to KO. Quite a good matchup, not as consistent as I would like since you need a bit of bad move choice from the AI, but beating 4/5 members with only one item is solid.

Hitmonlee. Switch to an hm slave turn 1 since Gyarados always uses hyper beam. After it faints, switch in again and use bulk up 3 times, use a potion as it uses hyper beam again. Heal off the damage, then Ohko with rock slide. Aerodactyl outspeeds and does over half with wing attack despite the defense boosts, but goes down to one rock slide. Dragonite and Dragonairs are all outsped and Ohkod with rock slide/high jump kick respectively. Good matchup, sweeps but needs 2 items and relies on innaccurate moves.

Cloyster. Ice beam is a 3-4hko on Gyarados, while it outspeeds and 4hkos in return. It can flinch and usually goes into potion range however, so this isn't a great matchup. Both Dragonairs are outsped and Ohkod with ice beam. Aerodactyl 3hkos you with ancient power but gets 2hkod in return by either stab. Dragonite outspeeds and Ohkos with outrage, never got it to use safeguard either for some reason so you just lose. Good matchup, loses to Dragonite and has a very rough time against Gyarados, but beats the other 3 members easily.

Magneton. Gyarados is an easy Ohko, worst it does is dragon rage for 40 damage. Hilariously I speed tie the Dragonairs, you resist eachothers stabs so it's a 4hko on both sides. Needs item spam to work here since you knock them into potion range. Aerodactyl can barely hurt you and lives one thunderbolt with a sliver of HP, easy win. Dragonite 3hkos with outrage, since it almost always goes for safeguard you have enough time to use metal sound and 2hko with thunderbolt. Great matchup, worst performance is against the Dragonairs funnily enough, but considering it beats every major threat with no items it's very positive in my eyes.

Team, Hitmonlee lvl 52, Nidoqueen lvl 52, Fearow lvl 51, Cloyster lvl 51, Magneton lvl 52.

Fearow. Pidgeot is a 2hko with double edge, only threat it poses is featherdance to force a switch. Rhydon gets 4hkod by steel wing and does 90% with rock tomb (which it spams all the time), not winning here. Double edge 3hkos (without intimidate) Arcanine but it Ohkos back after recoil damage. Gyarados is the exact same with hydro pump instead of flamethrower. Alakazam is outsped, it's a 2hko with return + double edge even if it uses reflect, although you are Ohkod by psychic it generally geos for reflect/future sight here. Venusaur gets 3hkod with drill peck due to sitrus, it just spams growth or synthesis most of the time and only has solarbeam to attack, so it's a win. Decent matchup, beats half of the champion's team reliably but can barely contribute against the other 3.

Nidoqueen. Thunderbolt 3hkos Pidgeot, however he switches to Rhydon immediately after using it once. Rhydon is outsped and Ohkod by surf. Alakazam comes in, it outspeeds and Ohkos with psychic and doesn't randomly use future sight anymore (or at least nowhere near as often) so you lose to it. Arcanine outspeeds and 2hkos from full, earthquake 2hkos as well but you lose. Gyarados outspeeds, 2hkos you with hydro while it gets 2hkod but thunderbolt in return. Unfavorable but you can beat it if it's locked into thrash or misses hydro. Venusaur is only a 5hko with earthquake, solarbeam Ohkod me at +1 but considering how many turns it has the boost seems reasonable. Poor matchup, only beats 2/6 members reliably. Ice beam would help against Venusaur but I couldn't afford it.

Hitmonlee. Pidgeot is a 2hko with rock slide, but it just Ohkos with aerial ace so you lose barring a flinch. Rhydon lives a high jump kick and Ohkos with earthquake. Tried bulk up, it still Ohkod at +1 defense. Arcanine only 2hkos with flamethrower, but rock slide only does a third and you go down to extreme speed. Alakazam is so strong that it Ohkos you into next week. Even if it future sights then Zam lives a mega kick and just KOs next turn. Gyarados is surprisingly your best matchup, as it gets outsped 2hkod (without intimidate) by rock slide and only 2hkos in return with thrash. Venusaur is unlikely to beat, as it gets 2hkod by +1 mega kick and Ohkos with solarbeam. Really bad matchup, only beats Gyarados and chips Arcanine reliably.

Cloyster. Ice beam 2hkos Pidgeot, it basically can't hurt you at all. Rhydon comes in next for some reason, it gets outsped and Ohkod. Venusaur always seems to use solarbeam turn 1, and since it outspeeds and Ohkos you with while ice beam 2hkos you won't beat it. Arcanine Ohkos and outspeeds with flamethrower, same exact story for Alakazam. Gyarados is a 4hko, it 3hkos with hydro pump or 4hkos with dragon rage. Unlikely to win but could be possible due to freeze chance. Bad matchup, only beats 2 mons and chunks a 3rd before going down.

Magneton. Surprisingly Ohkos Pidgeot with a thunderbolt, it doesn't have anything that impacts you at all. Arcanine comes in, it outspeeds and Ohkos with flamethrower so no dice. Reliably beats Alakazam thanks to only being 3hkod by psychic while 2-3hkoing in return with thunderbolt. Rhydon is also a no go for obvious reasons. Venusaur is beatable, albeit with a weird strat. Use thunder wave and then metal sound 3 times, which makes Venu into a 2hko. As long as it loses enough turns to paralysis (about 3, or just whenever it attacks) you'll beat it. Gyarados is a clean Ohko, it used dragon rage in three attempts against it so not sure how much hydro does or if it ever uses it here. Good matchup, beats 3 mons consistently and has a gimmicky way to beat Venusaur if need be.

And now for my team thoughts/noms.

:Fearow: For staying in B tier. This thing sweeps almost every single fight before Blaine, but falls off quite hard against most of the elite 4 and Champion. Less important, but worth noting it wants 2 tms and a tutor for it's normal stab throughout the game. Those factors along with a few inconsistencies in certain matchups mean I don't think it should get into A tier.

:Nidoqueen:Is fine in B tier. Another early final evo that dominates early game, although not quite as much as Fearow. Nidoqueen has insane coverage, enough to learn basically any move you want, as long as you can afford it. Considering it's ideal moveset for endgame has 3 game corner tms (tbolt/ice beam/shadow ball/earthquake) It's a high cost mon to run optimally. And no amount of moveset changes can fix those stats, good for taking hits but just doesn't do enough damage in many fights to secure a win. Definitely should not be A tier for these reasons, despite it's large amount of positive matchups.

:Hitmonlee: Can stay in A tier. I kept expecting it to slow down after a point, but Lee was a beast in my run. This may be controversial but it has very few matchups that it can't overcome with it's mix of bulk up, rock slide and mega kick. It's mostly just Koga and the champion that it has a straight up bad performance against, otherwise it either contributes heavily or sweeps. It has two other issues that could make an argument for B instead, those are needing two tutors and a TM for it's full potential, and every single move having imperfect accuracy at the end of the game. (high jump kick/rock slide/mega kick) I think it's consistently great performance is good enough to overcome these issues, but I can see why some would disagree.

:Cloyster:Sadly should stay in C tier. I was dissapointed in the elite 4, I figured stab surf and ice beam would carry it but that meh special attack and awful spdef come into play too often. Has a good number of positive matchups in mid game, and still contributes a fair amount in certain bad ones, but doesn't have good enough late game to justify being higher. It does get points for hardly needing tm investment, secret power was used all of 0 times where it wasn't identical to a stab, and aurora beam is good enough until late game when you have enough money to upgrade.

:Magneton:For remaining in B tier I tossed around the idea of nomming Magneton to C due to availability and movepool, (seriously look at it, just horrendous) but in the end something that does that well against the elite 4 should get an appropriate rank. It either swept or contributes heavily to each of the last 5 fights in the game other than Bruno, and has several great matchups before late game as well. It's biggest issue is being utter dead weight in it's bad matchups of Blaine, Giovanni 3 and Bruno, but considering those are literally it's only bad matchups and how much it helps out in tougher ones, I think it deserves B.

Probably doing a 4 mon run next, if anyone has suggestions I'm open to them since the only one I'm set on testing is Vaporeon. Also going to try and work on a slate for tommorow to see what seems odd in the tier list and needs more testing before the write ups.
 
Thank you dancing thanos! Despite the fact that these are all nominated for staying where they are, it's still good to see them tested; I was VERY uncertain on Hitmonlee after Machamp and I liked seeing (was perhaps even validated?) that I was right about its speed completely changing everything. Way more ridiculous Pokémon than I thought it'd be -- talking of which, wow, I was thinking of C for Fearow before but... damn. That's a much more impressive performance than I thought!

I definitely see why you might have thought C for Magneton at some point, and I'll also throw in that another point in its favour is the support it can offer for its team -- your use of Metal Sound was a nice surprise, and I feel that it and Thunder Wave can be a huge help to any less-than-great matchup for other team members. Even if it's not damage it will probably do something to help the team - and it's really not strapped for move slots; it only actually has one move - and that's something I've found with it before.

As for stuff for you to test next? If there's nothing more interesting, I'll suggest Kadabra. I've recently been wondering if it is perhaps suitable for S itself, or maybe the opposite; that its more meager stats are enough to push it down to B. I feel the most likely outcome is that it will stay A but it has been on my mind.

I'll be posting a list update a little later today :)
 
Ranking Updates

Rises

Mr. Mime A to S
Magikarp C to B
Dratini D to C
Weedle E to D
Ekans E to D
Omanyte E to D


Drops

Charmander A to B
Machop (trade) A to B
Machop (no trade) B to C



Some notes:-
- Charmander I was going back and forth on, but I'm ultimately deciding on B for it and I think I was a little too biased in favour of it before. I maintain that it still has a more impressive performance than people give it credit for and that it's pretty high in B, and its lategame with Sunny Day in particular is great; but it just has one too many shortcomings to be considered A with a fair few matchups being middling and the latter parts of Charmeleon being very unimpressive.
- With Weedle, Ekans and Omanyte all having proven to be able to do at least something, I think I'm now confident in saying that E-tier is staying as it is. Unlike its fellow fossils Kabuto isn't able to bring anything to the table to combat its late level 5 recruitment, and everything else is too weak to do anything (with some having the additional flaw of being difficult to get). I also don't see anything in D being so bad as to be moved down to E, so I think this rank's been nailed.


For what to consider next, the table's very open as always due to being early days; but a few things to consider in particular:-
- Lots of Pokémon make great HM slaves, but I'm considering moving Farfetch'd and Paras up to C for how good they are. Like Meowth they're obtained very early and easily and take care of the HMs you wouldn't want to be using yourself (Cut/Fly and Cut/Flash). Meowth has the additional boon of Pickup, but I still think they're effective enough slaves to be noted.
- I'm starting to consider how effective the no-trade versions of the trade evos are. I had them set to one rank below their evos as standard but it's definitely possible the performance of some are much closer or far weaker compared to the evos than originally though, so I'd like some more opinions on those.
- Is D-tier in general too harsh on certain Pokémon? Keep in mind a lot of them are there for being too late to be of much use (Moltres and Magmar) or have other issues like Safari Zone hell. Certain ones though like Rattata, GC Scyther and Vulpix are starting to pique my interest.
- Staryu has maintained its place for a while due to its early evolution and nature of being a powerhouse, but I'd like to see tests to determine if it's too late to be considered A
 
Glad to see a ranking update, agree with all of them so not much to say there.
For what to consider next, the table's very open as always due to being early days; but a few things to consider in particular:-
- Lots of Pokémon make great HM slaves, but I'm considering moving Farfetch'd and Paras up to C for how good they are. Like Meowth they're obtained very early and easily and take care of the HMs you wouldn't want to be using yourself (Cut/Fly and Cut/Flash). Meowth has the additional boon of Pickup, but I still think they're effective enough slaves to be noted.
- I'm starting to consider how effective the no-trade versions of the trade evos are. I had them set to one rank below their evos as standard but it's definitely possible the performance of some are much closer or far weaker compared to the evos than originally though, so I'd like some more opinions on those.
- Is D-tier in general too harsh on certain Pokémon? Keep in mind a lot of them are there for being too late to be of much use (Moltres and Magmar) or have other issues like Safari Zone hell. Certain ones though like Rattata, GC Scyther and Vulpix are starting to pique my interest.
- Staryu has maintained its place for a while due to its early evolution and nature of being a powerhouse, but I'd like to see tests to determine if it's too late to be considered A
I don't consider HM slaves to be super valuable, not enough for a tier change anyway. I could see Farfetch'd perhaps moving to C since it's not bad in combat with swords dance already so this could just be a small boost, but Paras is debatable since it has so many weaknesses and very few good moves outside of spore.
On the topic of non trade evos, I just started my run with Mankey/Haunter/Kadabra/Vaporeon so that's a nice coincidence, Haunter in C is probably fine but I'm less sure about where Kadabra is ending up. Texas had nommed Graveler to D, borderline E a while ago based on his logs, which makes sense to me since it's basically just Onix with an attack stat and ground stab that doesn't suck. Machoke is basically worse all around than Hitmonchan who is currently also in C, both could probably use a test or someone with experience to say their piece on them.
About Staryu, I feel like strong late game performance definitely outweighs the mid game availability and TM cost, although I haven't used one so it does depend on exactly how good it is against things like the elite 4. Haven't gotten around to testing it yet but it's on my list.
 
Also here's a slate of sorts for what should probably be tested. It's by no means an extensive list but these are what sticks out the most to me. If anyone feels like doing a run this should be helpful. I'll do a short write up on everything that I feel has an argument for moving to explain my thoughts.

- :alakazam: Abra (Trade)
- :jynx: Jynx [Less availability and speed than other S tiers, weak argument for A depending on how mid game is.]
- :mr. mime: Mr. Mime


- :kadabra: Abra (No trade) [I'm currently testing.]
- :bulbasaur: Bulbasaur
- :hitmonlee: Hitmonlee [2 tiers above Hitmonchan, somewhat questionable considering their similarities. Argument for B.]
- :nidoran-m: Nidoran-M [TM hungry and similar stat wise to the B tier mon Nidoqueen.]
- :snorlax: Snorlax
- :squirtle: Squirtle
- :staryu: Staryu [TM hungry and somewhat late, imo it's A but it could be seen as B tier.]
- :vaporeon: Vaporeon [I'm currently testing.]


- :articuno: Articuno
- :charmander: Charmander [Borderline A in logs, arguments for either A or B.]
- :clefairy: Clefairy [Has a fantastic movepool and calm mind for late game, argument for A.]
- :doduo: Doduo
- :electabuzz: Electabuzz [Earlier nom to C.]
- :exeggcute: Exeggcute
- :gengar: Gastly (Trade)
- :golem: Geodude (Trade) [Obviously this is miles better than Onix, but would still like to see Golem tested since late game could be bad for it]
- :growlithe: Growlithe [Argument for C considering it's very similar to Vulpix in D.]
- :pikachu: Pikachu
- :psyduck: Psyduck
- :lapras: Lapras [Average stats and comes underleveled in mid/late game, great coverage and typing however.]
- :machamp: Machop (Trade)
- :magikarp: Magikarp [Top tier battle performance, placement basically depends on how much of a struggle Magikarp phase is.]
- :magnemite: Magnemite
- :mankey: Mankey [I'm currently testing.]
- :nidoran-f: Nidoran-F
- :slowpoke: Slowpoke
- :spearow: Spearow
- :tentacool: Tentacool [Not sure what puts it above other waters like Horsea and Goldeen when it has mediocre special attack and ground + psychic weaknesses, not to mention being post Koga.]
- :zapdos: Zapdos


- :bellsprout: Bellsprout [Poor early game with basically just grass stab and return, but late game growth/solar beam/sunny day/return seems like an effective set. Could see this rising or falling depending on results.
- :caterpie: Caterpie
- :cubone: Cubone
- :diglett: Diglett [Incredibly frail with bad coverage and no boosting moves, argument for D.]
- :dratini: Dratini
- :drowzee: Drowzee [Lowest ranked psychic type, was wondering if hypnosis and calm mind spam can make up for the lower special attack and get it in B tier.]
- :flareon: Flareon
- :haunter: Gastly (No trade) [I'm currently testing.]
- :graveler: Geodude (No trade) [Earlier nom for D tier that I agree with.]
- :goldeen: Goldeen
- :hitmonchan: Hitmonchan [Interested in how much of a difference the lower stats make compared to Hitmonlee]
- :horsea: Horsea
- :jolteon: Jolteon
- :krabby: Krabby
- :machoke: Machop (no trade) [Poor speed and average bulk hinder bulk up sweeps, argument for D.]
- :meowth: Meowth
- :oddish: Oddish [Basically only has giga drain for attacking until Cinnabar, sleep is nice but no leech seed so it still struggles, argument for D.]
- :pinsir: Pinsir [Very good stats, but has no stab and needs high demand TMs/tutors plus a game corner cost]
- :poliwag: Poliwag
- :sandshrew: Sandshrew
- :shellder: Shellder
- :tangela: Tangela
- :venonat: Venonat
- :voltorb: Voltorb [Really bad movepool and meh stats outside of speed, at least electric attacks are OP, argument for D.]


- :aerodactyl: Aerodactyl [Nom for C a while ago, needs tests in general due to exp reasons]
- :ekans: Ekans
- :Farfetch [Swords dance naturally, but fairly slow and low stats overall. Argument for C depending on results.]
- :grimer: Grimer
- :jigglypuff: Jigglypuff
- :kangaskhan: Kangaskhan [Very good coverage and nice stats, safari zone is a pain however. Could see a rise depending on major battle results.]
- :koffing: Koffing
- :magmar: Magmar [Been wondering if it shouldn't be E considering it's after literally every good matchup for fire types.]
- :moltres: Moltres
- :omanyte: Omanyte
- :paras: Paras
- :pidgey: Pidgey
- :ponyta: Ponyta
- :rattata: Rattata [Good coverage and perfect availability, could see an argument for C.]
- :rhyhorn: Rhyhorn
- :scyther: Scyther
- :seel: Seel
- :tauros: Tauros
- :vulpix: Vulpix [Similar to B tier Growlithe but with worse stats and an earlier flamethrower, argument for C]
- :weedle: Weedle
- :zubat: Zubat


- :chansey: Chansey
- :ditto: Ditto
- :kabuto: Kabuto [Pretty much the only thing in E tier that isn't completely unusable barring it's level and join time. Argument for D if it actually has a good payoff like the other fossils.]
- :lickitung: Lickitung
- :onix: Onix
- :porygon: Porygon
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Jynx is the most broken pokemon in the game, there is no argument for A.
Hitmonlee is strong, bulkier than you expect and has setup, clear A to me.
Nidoqueen can drop, I don't rate either Nidos on weak late game performance.
Staryu and Slowpoke I personally rate because E4 performance>all but that's a matter of philosophy.
Growlithe should not drop, Arcanine is generically stronger/bulkier than Ninetales, immediate Flamethrower vs Erika gets it going and it doesnt slow down much at all.
Lapras stats are completely fine for in-game, more than enuogh speed/power to make good use of its Starmie-equal coverage.
Tentacruel's SpAtk is also totally fine and the speed is meaningful, Giga Drain coverage is nice.
Diglett I think can drop, it does one thing extremely well but its frailty is very apparent late game.
I tested Farfetch'd, very clear D, too terrible late game to be anything more.
Rattata shouldn't rise for the same reason, good up until Silph Co. and bad after. A rise is purely on availability and its performance doesn't warrant that exception imo.
Vulpix I would personally place in C, Flamethrower and disruption is solid even if that's all it does.
Kabutops I've used in casual runs, I don't think it justifies a rise, its mostly just average. Rock Slide/Surf/Return/whatever (Giga Drain) is solid but it doesn't have the special attack, bulk, or type coverage, or advantageous rock type matchups late game to really justify the investment, definitely not to the extent Omastar and Aerodactyl can. Decent mon but only decent, not enough to offset the lv 5 acquisition.
 
To comment om a few things before I get to work:-
- Jynx is broken. Availability is the one thing against it but you can get it as soon as you have the poke flute and from there it wrecks the game. Speed isn’t an issue as it outspeeds all it needs to

- If a Pokémon is really good at one point, that’s a C at worst. Caterpie’s earlygame for instance is really good and it only drops off later, and that’s my reasoning for Diglett too — the single thing it does well is still really good for a while.

- Growlithe I was genuinely thinking has an argument for A. Amazing stats, intimidate, gets going early, good matchups all around. Absolutely not C
 
Jynx is the most broken pokemon in the game, there is no argument for A.
Hitmonlee is strong, bulkier than you expect and has setup, clear A to me.
Nidoqueen can drop, I don't rate either Nidos on weak late game performance.
Staryu and Slowpoke I personally rate because E4 performance>all but that's a matter of philosophy.
Growlithe should not drop, Arcanine is generically stronger/bulkier than Ninetales, immediate Flamethrower vs Erika gets it going and it doesnt slow down much at all.
Lapras stats are completely fine for in-game, more than enuogh speed/power to make good use of its Starmie-equal coverage.
Tentacruel's SpAtk is also totally fine and the speed is meaningful, Giga Drain coverage is nice.
Diglett I think can drop, it does one thing extremely well but its frailty is very apparent late game.
I tested Farfetch'd, very clear D, too terrible late game to be anything more.
Rattata shouldn't rise for the same reason, good up until Silph Co. and bad after. A rise is purely on availability and its performance doesn't warrant that exception imo.
Vulpix I would personally place in C, Flamethrower and disruption is solid even if that's all it does.
Kabutops I've used in casual runs, I don't think it justifies a rise, its mostly just average. Rock Slide/Surf/Return/whatever (Giga Drain) is solid but it doesn't have the special attack, bulk, or type coverage, or advantageous rock type matchups late game to really justify the investment, definitely not to the extent Omastar and Aerodactyl can. Decent mon but only decent, not enough to offset the lv 5 acquisition.
To comment om a few things before I get to work:-
- Jynx is broken. Availability is the one thing against it but you can get it as soon as you have the poke flute and from there it wrecks the game. Speed isn’t an issue as it outspeeds all it needs to

- If a Pokémon is really good at one point, that’s a C at worst. Caterpie’s earlygame for instance is really good and it only drops off later, and that’s my reasoning for Diglett too — the single thing it does well is still really good for a while.

- Growlithe I was genuinely thinking has an argument for A. Amazing stats, intimidate, gets going early, good matchups all around. Absolutely not C
Thanks for the answers, most of these I was just wondering about since I haven't used them in casual runs before, Jynx for example. I dont feel particularly strongly about any of those noms considering y'know, I havent used them, so good to see some input because of that. Only issue I have is Nidoqueen dropping, mine only had one game corner tm (tbolt) and still contributed a lot or swept 3/5 of the elite 4 + champion. It wasnt amazing late game but definitely good enough for B tier imo.
 
I had basically nothing to do today except play some pokemon, so here's the first round of logs. Team is Mankey, Abra (no trade), Gastly (no trade) and Vaporeon.

Team, Mankey lvl 11

Mankey 2hkos Geodude and 3hkos Onix with low kick. Even though they attacked every turn and crit me once I had enough Hp to live. Perfect matchup, no surprise considering Mankey exists this early so that you have an answer to Brock.

Team, Mankey lvl 18

Mankey 2hkos Pidgeotto with rock tomb, it does half with gust but tends to just use sand attack and gets outsped after a drop anyways. Abra can't attack and is a 2hko with karate chop. Rattata gets outsped and Ohkod by karate chop. Squirtle is a 2hko with mega kick, 3hko with karate chop. Water gun 4hkos so you win barring accuracy. Great matchup, only chance to lose is due to missing.

Team, Mankey lvl 22 (23 after Staryu), Kadabra lvl 17 (18 after Staryu)

Mankey. Staryu is outsped and Ohkod by mega kick, 2hko with karate chop and it usually just goes for harden. Starmie outspeeds and 2hkos you, mega kick 2hkos in return. Mediocre performance, unable to beat the actual threat but can handle Staryu easily.

Kadabra. Beats Staryu, water pulse is a 3hko and it gets 2hkod by confusion. Starmie isn't happening, it gets maybe 8hkod and 2hkos with water pulse. Meh matchup, beating Staryu isn't too impressive and it can't touch Starmie.

Team, Mankey lvl 23, Kadabra lvl 22 (23 after Raticate)

Mankey. Pidgeotto is a 2hko with rock tomb, it does just under half with but tends to use sand attack. Kadabra outspeeds and 2hkos, Ohkos if Pidgeotto hit you. You can win since mega kick Ohkos but it's unreliable. Wartortle is a 2hko with brick break, 3hko if it spams withdraw, water gun is a 4-5hko in return. Great matchup, struggles against Kadabra but sweeps the rest of the team.

Kadabra. Outspeeds and 2hkos Pidgeotto with psybeam, it roughly 5hkos with it's stabs. Wartortle is 2hkod and only 3hkos with bite. Raticate gets Ohkod by psybeam, it usually KOs if you miss due to chip but you can just sack something to remove sand attack so it's no issue. The rival's Kadabra gets 2hkod and you can live confusion unless you're at red health. Effectively perfect matchup, only loses to things like crits or misses that can be prevented.

Team, Mankey lvl 24, Kadabra lvl 23 (24 after Pikachu)

Mankey. Voltorb outspeeds and chips with sonicboom, dig is a good chance to Ohko. Pikachu gets outsped and Ohkod by brick break. Raichu 2hkos with shock wave, it gets 2hkod by dig but considering double team and paralysis it's unlikely you hit it twice. Average matchup, beats the 2 weaker mons but fails against the ace.

Kadabra. Voltorb and Pikachu are outsped and Ohkod, no surprise. Raichu is outsped and psybeam 2hkos it, shock wave 3hkos back. Perfect matchup, only loses if you get atrocious double team luck.

Team, Primeape lvl 28, Kadabra lvl 27, Vaporeon lvl 25

Primeape. Pidgeotto gets outsped and Ohkod with rock slide, 2hko if you only have brick break. Exeggcute is 2hkod with mega kick + brick break (in case of reflect), confusion only does a third in return. Growlithe is an Ohko with brick break after switching to remove intimidate. Kadabra gets outsped and Ohkod by rock slide. Wartortle is 2hkod with brick break, water gun 4-5hkos in return. Excellent matchup, sweep with basically no issues.

Kadabra. Psybeam 2hkos Pidgeotto, if it attacks then gust is a 3hko. Wartortle does about half with bite, you outspeed and 2hko it to win. Growlithe is an easy Ohko. Exeggcute surprisingly gets 2hkod with psybeam, even if it lands a leech seed. Worst it does is land sleep powder but considering it barely hurts you in return it's no big deal. Obviously you beat the opposing Kadabra, psybeam 2hkos while it just spams kinesis. Great matchup, sweeps with only one pretty minor obstacle.

Vaporeon. 2hko Pidgeotto with water pulse, it only 6hkos if it attacks at all. Exeggcute is a bad matchup, it hits hypnosis and leech seeds to heal all the damage you do, plus water pulse only 3hkos. Not winning without item spam or crazy sand attack luck. Kadabra is a 2hko with water pulse, or water pulse + quick attack in case it goes for disable. Growlithe is outsped and Ohkod, big surprise. Wartortle is a slow win, water pulse 5hkos it but it does even less with bite and randomly uses withdraw, so you win the chip war. Good matchup, doesn't sweep sadly and has a slow take down on Wartortle, but otherwise very good.


Team, Primeape lvl 29, Kadabra lvl 29, Vaporeon lvl 29

Primeape. Very simple matchup, Onix and Rhyhorn can't hurt you and are 2hkod by brick break. Kangaskhan is a 2hko as well, you outspeed and live mega punch so it's a win. Perfect matchup since you can't really lose unless you get crit.

Kadabra. Beats Onix, psybeam 2hkos and it can't hurt you outside of a rock throw 3hko. Kangaskhan comes in next, it gets 3hkod but can Ohko back with mega punch that it's fairly likely to use. Couldn't beat it in 6 attempts so bad matchup for sure. Rhyhorn is exactly the same as Onix, 2hko with psybeam and tank any hit in return. Average matchup, beating the rocks isn't very impressive since almost anything not 4x weak to rock can do that.

Vaporeon. To nobody's surprise both rocks are outsped and Ohkod. Kangaskhan is the real threat, it outspeeds and can 2hko with mega punch, while you 4hko with water pulse. Sounds bad, but between mega punch accuracy, confusion chance and most importantly Giovanni's terrible AI, you come out on top like 3/4 times. Great matchup, not a perfect sweep since Giovanni can be smart once in a blue moon, but quite reliable.

Team, Primeape lvl 30, Kadabra lvl 30, Vaporeon lvl 30, Haunter lvl 30 (A level 18 Gastly taught psychic can solo pokemon tower and Erika's gym, which is why it's the same level as the rest of my team.)

Primeape. Mega kick 2hkos Victreebel, it usually goes for stun spore and then a 3hko with giga drain. You can lose with bad para/accuracy luck but generally it's a win. Tangela is a 2hko with brick break, problem is even though it's giga drain only 4hkos you're already chipped from Victreebel and can lose due to paralysis. If you make it to Vileplume it's effectively the same as Victreebel, 3hkos with a slightly stronger giga drain and gets 2hkod with mega kick. Never beat it, closest was beating both Victreebel and Tangela beforehand but that was mostly due to stun spore missing turn 1. Average matchup, can beat the first two with a fair amount of luck but won't beat Vileplume.

Kadabra. Outspeed and Ohko her entire team with Psybeam. Definition of a perfect matchup.

Vaporeon. Outspeed and Ohko both Victreebel and Tangela with ice beam, could barely afford the TM after rocket hideout and tower trainers. Vileplume lives but only 3hkos with giga drain and goes down to the follow up ice beam. Great matchup, very clean sweep.

Haunter. Outspeed and Ohko Victreebel and Tangela with Psychic. Vileplume has a chance to live but it can't really hurt you since you resist all of it's moves and can't be poisoned. Perfect matchup, not much to say.

Thoughts on the early game, pretty interesting run so far!
:Primeape: Primeape has a very good early game, although it's not perfect it puts in work against most non special attackers. One advantage is it's blazing speed for in game, which should be great for helping bulk up sweeps later. Earlier texas had a run where he said it could be A tier, so I'm using it to see how it fares late game and if it deserves to rise or stay.

:kadabra: So far this guy has felt very similar to Alakazam, but that's to be expected this early on when every non resist drops to a strong psychic/psybeam. I'm looking forward to late game since that's when we'll see if it deserves to be with the rest of the S tier psychics or not. Definitely don't see this dropping to B tier however, Alakazam is a clear S tier and it's stats aren't an earth shattering improvement over Kadabra's.

:Vaporeon: Wanted to test Vaporeon since it doesn't have the amazing coverage of Starmie or the excellent consistency of Blastoise. Definitely had some very solid performances so far, really high base 110 special attack is making even water pulse seem strong, hydro pump for the elite 4 is definitely going to be fun to use. Pretty unlikely to move in hindsight but wanted to test this anyway.

:Haunter: Can't exactly point out any differences between it and Gengar yet since it's Ohkod everything with psychic. Sweeping the tower after catch with no other training was kinda surprising, but what did I think would happen? My ghost had psychic and they didn't, pretty clear cut winner here. Worried that it's going to fall off late game in parts where Gengar wouldn't, mostly with it's pitiful bulk and noticeably lower special attack, but only time will tell on that front I suppose.
 
Thoughts on the early game, pretty interesting run so far!
:Primeape: Primeape has a very good early game, although it's not perfect it puts in work against most non special attackers. One advantage is it's blazing speed for in game, which should be great for helping bulk up sweeps later. Earlier texas had a run where he said it could be A tier, so I'm using it to see how it fares late game and if it deserves to rise or stay.

:kadabra: So far this guy has felt very similar to Alakazam, but that's to be expected this early on when every non resist drops to a strong psychic/psybeam. I'm looking forward to late game since that's when we'll see if it deserves to be with the rest of the S tier psychics or not. Definitely don't see this dropping to B tier however, Alakazam is a clear S tier and it's stats aren't an earth shattering improvement over Kadabra's.

:Vaporeon: Wanted to test Vaporeon since it doesn't have the amazing coverage of Starmie or the excellent consistency of Blastoise. Definitely had some very solid performances so far, really high base 110 special attack is making even water pulse seem strong, hydro pump for the elite 4 is definitely going to be fun to use. Pretty unlikely to move in hindsight but wanted to test this anyway.

:Haunter: Can't exactly point out any differences between it and Gengar yet since it's Ohkod everything with psychic. Sweeping the tower after catch with no other training was kinda surprising, but what did I think would happen? My ghost had psychic and they didn't, pretty clear cut winner here. Worried that it's going to fall off late game in parts where Gengar wouldn't, mostly with it's pitiful bulk and noticeably lower special attack, but only time will tell on that front I suppose.
Very happy to see Mankey putting in the work! It's basically serving the same function as Butterfree as an earlygame beast. Kadabra I think I'm going to have to hold reservations on about your logs as it'll be lacking Psychic until Level 36, but that said it is interesting to see a run where the usual Psychic doesn't get that.

Hello guys I am replaying my Fire Red and decided that I can help you a bit. I will use Charmander/ Clefairy/Drowsee/Lapras/Hitmonlee/Electabuzz.
Great! Though do keep in mind that for testing purposes we tend to keep to teams of 4 or 5
 
Very happy to see Mankey putting in the work! It's basically serving the same function as Butterfree as an earlygame beast. Kadabra I think I'm going to have to hold reservations on about your logs as it'll be lacking Psychic until Level 36, but that said it is interesting to see a run where the usual Psychic doesn't get that.


Great! Though do keep in mind that for testing purposes we tend to keep to teams of 4 or 5
About Kadabra getting psychic late, the TM really only helps in making the pokemon tower rival a little faster. Erika is still swept with no issues, and I doubt psychic would have Ohkod Giovanni's Kangaskhan so it doesn't help much in that matchup either. For Koga it's going to be above level 36 anyway so it doesn't make a difference. It's definitely a point in it's favor since most other psychic types want it asap but Kadabra/Zam are perfectly fine without it.
 
Glancing at the tier lists made me realise that Seel is the only water type below C rank (excluding the fossils) and I find it wrong. I searched this thread for some arguments of why it was put so low but found nothing.

Dewgong has a good bulk of 90/80/95 and, while its offences are mediocre, it starts with Aurora Beam and Surf (the latter hits about as hard as Kadabra's Psybeam neutrally). Seel's availability is not bad since the player can beeline for the Pokemon right after beating Koga and still have a lot of the game left (routes around Fuchsia, Silph Co., Sabrina, Blaine, Giovanni etc.). The detour takes less than 15 minutes (including the time of travel and capture). What's more it's possible to catch it on a respectable level (up to 35) or acquire its evolved form (5% chance for it to appear on 35-40 levels) so it does not need catching up to the team. Overall, it's a decent Pokemon who clears routes without problems (maybe except for the water ones), sweeps two gym leaders and contributes in League (e.g. beating Lance and taking out half of Gary's team).

Comparisons are hard to avoid when rating water Pokemon in Kanto so I would like to mention a few more points. When I compare Dewgong to Pokemon like Seadra and Seaking who lack a second STAB, don't really contribute much in Erika-Koga segment and have worse BST I must ask what makes Seel worse. Availaibility can't be the ultimate answer here since Tentacool (who is also a post Koga Pokemon) is two ranks higher. I would understand if Tentacruel was a powerhouse in comparison but it isn't - average offences, average physical bulk and bad poison STAB make it obvious.
 
Glancing at the tier lists made me realise that Seel is the only water type below C rank (excluding the fossils) and I find it wrong. I searched this thread for some arguments of why it was put so low but found nothing.

Dewgong has a good bulk of 90/80/95 and, while its offences are mediocre, it starts with Aurora Beam and Surf (the latter hits about as hard as Kadabra's Psybeam neutrally). Seel's availability is not bad since the player can beeline for the Pokemon right after beating Koga and still have a lot of the game left (routes around Fuchsia, Silph Co., Sabrina, Blaine, Giovanni etc.). The detour takes less than 15 minutes (including the time of travel and capture). What's more it's possible to catch it on a respectable level (up to 35) or acquire its evolved form (5% chance for it to appear on 35-40 levels) so it does not need catching up to the team. Overall, it's a decent Pokemon who clears routes without problems (maybe except for the water ones), sweeps two gym leaders and contributes in League (e.g. beating Lance and taking out half of Gary's team).

Comparisons are hard to avoid when rating water Pokemon in Kanto so I would like to mention a few more points. When I compare Dewgong to Pokemon like Seadra and Seaking who lack a second STAB, don't really contribute much in Erika-Koga segment and have worse BST I must ask what makes Seel worse. Availaibility can't be the ultimate answer here since Tentacool (who is also a post Koga Pokemon) is two ranks higher. I would understand if Tentacruel was a powerhouse in comparison but it isn't - average offences, average physical bulk and bad poison STAB make it obvious.
I don't disagree that Dewgong seems at least decent, but I wouldn't put it higher than C. If we're doing comparisions I think Cloyster is a good one, since it's a defensive water/ice type with mediocre special attack. Dewgong may even be slightly better in late game since the improved spdef could give it a better Lance matchup. Issue is that special attack is a serious issue with no boosting moves, I don't see it performing well in matchups where it doesn't hit something super effectively. Elite 4 probably isn't good for it outside of Lance, Bruno's Onix and some of the Champions team.

I actually have similar issues with Tentacruel seeing as it has very average special attack and not much to make up for it other than giga drain and great special bulk. This is basically just theorymon tho since I haven't used Dewgong or Tentacruel recently, but depending on how future tests go I could see all of them in C tier at the end.
 
Glancing at the tier lists made me realise that Seel is the only water type below C rank (excluding the fossils) and I find it wrong. I searched this thread for some arguments of why it was put so low but found nothing.

Dewgong has a good bulk of 90/80/95 and, while its offences are mediocre, it starts with Aurora Beam and Surf (the latter hits about as hard as Kadabra's Psybeam neutrally). Seel's availability is not bad since the player can beeline for the Pokemon right after beating Koga and still have a lot of the game left (routes around Fuchsia, Silph Co., Sabrina, Blaine, Giovanni etc.). The detour takes less than 15 minutes (including the time of travel and capture). What's more it's possible to catch it on a respectable level (up to 35) or acquire its evolved form (5% chance for it to appear on 35-40 levels) so it does not need catching up to the team. Overall, it's a decent Pokemon who clears routes without problems (maybe except for the water ones), sweeps two gym leaders and contributes in League (e.g. beating Lance and taking out half of Gary's team).

Comparisons are hard to avoid when rating water Pokemon in Kanto so I would like to mention a few more points. When I compare Dewgong to Pokemon like Seadra and Seaking who lack a second STAB, don't really contribute much in Erika-Koga segment and have worse BST I must ask what makes Seel worse. Availaibility can't be the ultimate answer here since Tentacool (who is also a post Koga Pokemon) is two ranks higher. I would understand if Tentacruel was a powerhouse in comparison but it isn't - average offences, average physical bulk and bad poison STAB make it obvious.
Simply put? It just hasn't really been put to the test yet! I gave it D as a preliminary ranking... and that's also the ranking a couple other waters like Goldeen used to be at. I'd be very happy to see it proven wrong
 
Weird post but, I was re-reading my logs with Fearow and I think I misjudged it a bit, I'm going to change my nomination to A tier. I'm fine with the rest of my noms but wanted to go back to this one. I think it's elite 4 and champion performance are more than good enough to match other A tier mons, and while needing a one use TM and tutor isn't great, that's basically the only contested TM it wants. Here's a list of all matchups where Fearow didn't sweep.
Brock- Lol, only winning with item spam or grinding, so terrible.
Giovanni 1- Beats either the rocks or Kangaskhan, could beat both with a potion.
Koga- Beats everything except Weezing.
Blaine- Beats everything except Arcanine.
Route 22 Rival- Beats everything except Rhyhorn, coin flip on beating Alakazam.
Lorelei- Snipes Dewgong, Cloyster and Jynx.
Lance- Only beats the Dragonairs, worst non Brock performance by some margin.
Champion- Beats Pidgeot, Alakazam and Venusaur. Hard loses to the rest.

Bad matchups- Brock, Lance, arguably Giovanni 1 and the Champion.

When comparing it to other A rank mons like Blastoise, Hitmonlee, and Nidoking, Fearow definitely seems closer to them in combat than it is to B tier mons I've seen/used. Sweeping half of the elite 4 and taking out most of Lorelei and the Champion's team is very good when you add in it's absurd midgame. It's also great in most other categories I consider, perfect availability, good stats for in game and only has contested TMs if you're using another normal or flying type (or stuff like Gyarados). Overall I think this is just a classic example of why posting at 1am wasn't a great idea. Fearow should be A tier imo, feel free to call me a fool if I've missed something again tho.
 
More logs, also double post woop. Great run so far, probably gonna stick to 4 mon runs in the future since it's faster.

Team, Primeape, Kadabra, Vaporeon, Haunter, all lvl 38

Primeape. Both Koffings are 2hkod with seismic toss, only threating move is self destruct to Ohko you. Muk isn't happening, 3hko with mega kick and 5hko with seismic toss. It 4hkos in return and can pull the usual minimize/acid armor junk to beat you. Weezing is a 3hko with seismic toss, it 4hkos with sludge but usually wastes time with toxic/smokescreen so you can usually win. Good matchup, can't touch Muk but reliably beats the other 3.

Kadabra. Koffing is a Ohko with psychic. Muk barely lives but only 2hkos with sludge so you still beat it unless you get awful minimize luck. Koffing 2 and Weezing are both outsped and Ohkod with psychic. Basically perfect matchup since you only lose if you get exceptionally bad luck.

Vaporeon. Surf's up! Use rain dance vs Koffing, then Ohko with surf. Muk is a 2hko but it usually uses minimize anyway and you can live even if everything in the fight attacks. Koffing 2 is obviously an Ohko. Rain stops against Weezing so it's a 2hko, sludge roughly 4hkos you in return. Excellent matchup, sweep that only loses if you get hit by toxic turn 1, so very reliable.

Haunter. Koffing is Ohkod by psychic. Muk is a 2hko but it can't hurt you since it only has sludge for damage so you will win. Koffing 2 is the same as the first. Weezing barely lives psychic but can't hurt you so it's a win. Perfect matchup, although not as quick as 4 Ohkos sadly.

Team, Primeape, Kadabra, Vaporeon, Haunter, all lvl 39

Primeape. Bulk up on Pidgeot, once if it goes for wing attack and 3 times if featherdance, either way you end up and about half before outspeeding and Ohkoing with +1 rock slide. Exeggcute gets Ohkod by mega kick like 99% of the time. Alakazam is outsped, rock slide Ohkos it. Same story for Growlithe. Blastoise is a 2hko with cross chop, water gun usually 2/3hkos by this point so accuracy can make this a loss if you get unlucky. Great matchup, not perfect since a few things can go wrong (damage rolls and accuracy mostly.) but you can usually sweep.

Kadabra. Psychic (stronger than shock wave here) 2hkos Pidgeot, wing attack does just over half in return. Blastoise isn't happening, bite 2hkos from full and psychic only 3hkos. Exeggcute is a 2hko, it doesn't have anything that deals much damage so you usually win after getting hit by status. Growlithe is outsped and Ohkod, if you're paralyzed you still live take down and beat it. Alakazam is a 3hko with psychic, beating it basically depends on if it only using one calm mind at most since otherwise you can't deal damage fast enough to break recover. Good matchup, reliably beats 3 mons and usually beats a 4th.

Vaporeon. Ice beam or surf 2hkos Pidgeot, wing attack 5hkos you. Exeggcute gets outsped and Ohkod with ice beam or bite. Alakazam is 2hkod with surf even if it goes for calm mind, plus it can't hurt you. Growlithe is outsped and Ohkod with surf. Blastoise is rough, technically you can 4hko under rain while it only 5-6hkos, but between bite's flinch chance, chip and protect you won't win without items. Great matchup, sweeps easily until Blastoise.

Haunter. Pidgeot has a chance to live thunderbolt but most of the time it's an Ohko. If it lives then wing attack does about half. Exeggcute is a losing matchup, it 2hkos with confusion and gets 3hkod by night shade. Alakazam is a 2hko with tbolt but it can't hurt you. Blastoise isn't happening as bite 2hkos you, and finishes you off with future sight damage, tbolt is a 2hko. Growlith is a 2hko, flame wheel only 3hkos in return and you outspeed. Good matchup, beats 3/5 mons very reliably.

Team, Primeape lvl 40, Kadabra lvl 39, Vaporeon lvl 40, Haunter lvl 40.

Primeape. Bulk up once on Nidorino and Ohko it with mega kick. Nidoqueen is a 2hko, it doesn't do much damage but can status you and cut a sweep short. Kangaskhan is outsped and Ohkod with cross chop, same for Rhyhorn. Great matchup, sweeps, not perfect however since status and accuracy are annoying.

Kadabra. Psychic Ohkos Nidorino, who's surprised. Nidoqueen is a 2hko but it almost never uses body slam, instead going for a 4hko with double kick/poison sting or just tail whip. For Kangaskhan set up reflect to make mega punch a 2hko, then spam recover until it starts using rage and tail whip. Weird strat but it worked very consistently so I'll take it. Rhyhorn is an Ohko with psychic. Great matchup, sweeps with only a minor problem in Kangaskhan.

Vaporeon. Rain dance against Nidorino, outspeed and Ohko it and Nidoqueen with surf. Kangaskhan is a 2hko but mega punch only 3hkos in return. Rhyhorn is obviously outsped and Ohkod. Perfect matchup, very clean sweep.

Haunter. Nidorino is an Ohko with psychic. Rhyhorn is a 2hko, rock blast can KO with 4-5 hits, but it almost always just uses scary face and you outspeed at -2. Nidoqueen is a 2hko, but it only has poison sting so it's a win. Kangaskhan only has normal moves, 3hko with tbolt. Excellent matchup, sweeps 99% of the time because Giovanni can't hurt ghosts.

Team, Primeape lvl 41, Kadabra lvl 40, Vaporeon lvl 41, Haunter lvl 40.

Primeape. Kadabra can be set up on 99% of the time, since it just uses random moves (usually future sight) and the only way it KOs you is with +1 psybeam. Needs one or two bulk ups depending on if you want to spam mega kick or rock slide, but you outspeed and Ohko everything after boosting. Great matchup, didn't expect outspeeding Alakazam (100 speed) but I'll take it for sure.

Kadabra. Psychic 2hkos Sabrina's Kadabra even if it calm minds, it usually just uses that or future sight. Venomoth comes in next so that's a free Ohko. Mr. Mime is shaky, if it uses calm mind at all then you lose because it gets into potion range and either beats you or baton passes to Alakazam. If it doesn't use calm mind then you win since it's a 3hko while it only 4/5hkos in return. Alakazam isn't happening, it spams recover and calm mind to outlast you by a mile. Good matchup, reliably beats 2 mons and has a chance to beat Mime as well.

Vaporeon. Rain dance turn 1, Kadabra is Ohkod unless it uses calm mind twice, but a +2 psybeam only does a bit over half. Mr. Mime outspeeds you but gets Ohkod/2hkod depending on calm mind, it can't hurt you much either. Venomoth maybe 7hkos and doesn't have calm mind, so waste time with bite until rain runs out so it doesn't run out against Zam. After Ohkoing the moth, Alakazam is a 2hko even with a calm mind boost, you almost always live a +1 psychic thanks to leftovers so it's a win. Great matchup, sweeps unless you get really unlucky.

Haunter. Kadabra barely lives thunderbolt and Ohkos you consistently with psybeam. Venomoth is the only mon I could beat since you outspeed and Ohko it with psychic. Bad matchup, not sure if keeping shadow punch would've helped but it still probably only lets you beat Kadabra.

Team, Primeape, Kadabra, Vaporeon, Haunter, all lvl 43

Primeape. Sack an HM slave to Growlithe, then set up 2 bulk ups on it. Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash are outsped and Ohkod with rock slide at +2. Sadly Arcanine lives rock slide with about a third left and finishes you off with fire blast. Great matchup, beats everything up until Arcanine, who still takes a huge chunk before you go down. Tried setting up on Ponyta like with Hitmonlee, but it only used fire blast for some reason, which does the same damage as Growlithe's.

Kadabra. Growlithe only 3hkos with take down, so set up 2 calm minds. Everything afterwards is outsped and Ohkod with psychic. Perfect matchup, only loses to a crit.

Vaporeon. Everything is an Ohko with unboosted surf lol. Only things to mention are Rapidash outspeeding (only does like 35 damage with stomp/bounce)and Arcanine having a slight chance to live one surf. Neither are threats even if they do attack, perfect matchup.

Haunter. All of Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash can be described in the exact same way. Haunter outspeeds and thunderbolt 2hkos, you barely live fire blast and can't beat anything else without healing. Arcanine isn't happening, you only 3hko while fire blast just Ohkos in return. Bad matchup, can snipe Rapidash but needs switching and healing to do anything else.

Primeape, Kadabra, Vaporeon, Haunter, all lvl 44

Primeape. Rhyhorn barely lives one cross chop, 1 rock slide puts it in range and avoids a potion/saves pp. Sack something to Dugtrio, come back in and set up 3 bulk ups, it only does ~half your Hp in that time thanks to the defense boosts. Cross chop, mega kick twice and cross chop again to outspeed and Ohko the rest of Giovanni's team, misses don't really matter since they can't break through +3 defense. Perfect matchup, very consistent sweep.

Kadabra. Everything gets outsped and Ohkod with psychic lol. Absolute perfect matchup, impossible to lose.

Vaporeon. 5 Ohkos with surf, no rain needed. Only detail of note is Dugtrio outspeeding, but even a crit earthquake won't Ohko you so it's fine. Picture perfect matchup, literally can't lose.

Haunter. Fun fact, the only moves Giovanni has that hurts Haunter are poison sting from Nidos (lmao) and rock blast from Rhyhorns, who both get outsped and Ohkod. Dugtrio and the Nidos are 2hkod with psychic, but they can't touch you so who cares. Perfect matchup, funniest sweep I've seen yet.

TLDR; Giovanni really needs to retire, like seriously man just teach one TM to your pokemon that isn't earthquake.

And here's my thoughts before the elite 4 fights.

:Primeape: Very solid so far, usually either sweeping or taking out the majority of any team it goes up against. One small issue is that it can be annoying while route cleaning because cross chop and mega kick only have 5 pp and imperfect accuracy. B tier seems fine so far, I'm optimistic for late game since it likely has good matchups against Lorelei, Bruno, maybe Agatha and the Champion depending on set up as well.

:Kadabra: I can say with confidence that it won't be dropping to B unless elite 4 goes way worse then I'm expecting. It may sound weird but the bigger difference between it and Alakazam might be bulk, since both of them outspeed and Ohko 99% of the game with calm mind anyway, it's more about actually finding the oppurtunity to set up. That said the power will probably also end up making a difference in fights like Lance and the Champion since their teams are so bulky, but I'm expecting mostly very good matchups.

:Vaporeon: I must've been crazy to think Vaporeon deserved B lol. That special attack stat on a water type turns surf into a terrifying weapon, and hydro pump under rain probably just nukes end game. Even when it doesn't Ohko everything it's got great HP and spdef to tank hits and power through. Depending on how Agatha and the Champion go I may even nom it for S, but for now A seems very appropriate.

:Haunter: C tier is a bit low given that it's had several perfect sweeps and only a couple bad matchups, however I'm quite sure it's going to fall off late game. 115 special attack is great, but no stab is tough to work with when everything gets bulkier and you have those sick 45/45/55 defenses. Still the psychic + tbolt combo hits basically everything except some of Lance and the Champion's team supereffectively, so maybe it'll end up rising after all.
 
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